Apple Climbs Into Third Place In U.S. PC Market 1019
Tibor the Hun writes "According to Gartner and IDC, Apple now has between 7.8 and 8.5% of market share. While those numbers are not astonishing, they are not insignificant, and their growth does not seem to be slowing down. Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?
Or did you really mean 'orthogonal'
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?
Or did you really mean 'orthogonal'
Apple users are definitely wacky. I bought a MacBook recently because of the stability, ease of administration, nice kernel, reasonable dev environment, etc.
Now I can't stand it. The Apple GUI is a piece of shit. They have gone to weird symbols in their GUI instead of nice buttons with labels.
Example: I needed to add a user. I bought up the little user management app and didn't see any add user button. After a short Google, I found that to add a user, you click the small plus sign at the bottom. Maybe
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
I converted to Macs a few years ago and found the OS X interface to be the most intuitive I've ever used. The plus and minus signs at the bottom of lists seems obviously to imply add and remove.
Windows always took me a while to learn the nuances. And then another version with a changed interface would force me to learn the changes. But with OS X I typically just ask myself how something should work and there it is, right where I'd expect it.
So far I've found that most people's issues with learning the OS X interface is actually unlearning another interface.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
You didn't see the "?" button on the Accounts pane? Clicking that clearly outlines what you need to know.
The "+" and "-" and similar buttons are used almost universally and consistently throughout Mac OS X, Apple applications and 3rd party applications.
It isn't about being pretty but consistent and directly useful/discoverable without clutter.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Funny)
God, you're right, the GP is being ridiculous. Everyone KNOWS all you have to do is click on the "&^4" to add users and the "(/9er" symbol to remove users. AND If you need help, you simply attach a second monitor, stand on one foot, and pray to Steve Jobs, and the answer you are seeking will be whispered to you in ancient Mayan.
Because, God knows, it's entirely ridiculous and arbitrary to expect an English speaker to associate "+" with the concept of addition.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Informative)
Please give us an update in about a month or so.
Yes, the apple GUI is different. Same with the keyboard shortcuts. Once you get used to them, you won't even notice it.
I went through the same frustration as you, but now I get pissed when I am on windows and can't use the command key like I can on OS X....
Give it time would be my suggestion...
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
That's a pretty bad example. Congratulations, you just learned the UI widget for adding something.
Now, in most every single Mac native application (and the good ports), you know when you are "adding X", there will always be a button with a + symbol at the bottom corner.
Let's take Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac as an example of "you can write FORTRAN in every language". Say you want to set the default format to the old binary one instead of OpenXML.
Word: Hit preferences. It's a System-Preferences like presentation of a matrix of icons. Hit compatibility. Nothing there. Hit "Save". Ah, "Save Word files as ... (dropdown to .doc)"
Excel: Hit preferences. Again, a System-Preferences matrix of icons. Hit "Save". Nothing there. Hit "Compatibility" - ah, a different layout of dropdown box.
Powerpoint: Hit preferences. It's a tabbed interface. Go to the "Save" tab and hit "Save powerpoint files as ... (dropdown to .ppt)"
So, there are 2 layouts of preferences (tabbed versus icon matrix) and two places where this dropdown is hidden (save versus compatibility), and two different styles for the dropdown. No two apps are the same.
But yes, you do get buttons with labels. Just not a consistent GUI...
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
No - it means that you're used to Windows or Linux conventions, and are trying to use those conventions in an Apple environment.
It doesn't work that way. I'll be blunt: learning OSX is a pain. There's a ton of non-obvious stuff that is completely different from the Windows world (I'll just point to tabbing between firefox windows when other apps are open as one of my initial pain points), and which have to be re-learned. Remember that first time you fired up Linux? How much stumbling around did you have to do? It's the same thing for OSX. Expecting to be able to navigate all of OSX without ever looking for help anywhere is.... unrealistic.
What I will argue though is that OSX has the smallest learning curve of any new OS. I remember playing around with Linux, and having to root through config files and command line arguments to get stuff to work. Windows was a collection of arcane commands that made no sense, but worked. Compared to that, OSX is a breeze.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Funny)
Don't tell me, instead of two buttons with a "plus" and "minus," you wanted one button two screens away that said "Manage User Profiles." And clicking that, you expected three radio buttons: "Add A User Profile," "Create A Personality with the PersonalityWizard(tm)," and "Advanced". You wanted the Mac to kernel panic if you selected "Add A User Profile," you wanted the PersonalityWizard(tm) to ask for your MSN password and a credit card number, but never add a user, and you wanted Advanced to open up the Wifi configuration panel.
I kid but only a little.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I find the user interface to be very good. But I did run into these kinds of troubles with getting acclimated. It just takes some time to get used to the subtle differences. We could all do it in windows instantly (well, after the long delay for the control panel subscreen to open), but how many years have we had to familiarize ourselves with Windows?
I'm not saying that I'll never get used to OS X. It's just ... painful. I also recently installed Ubuntu with KDE on my desktop ... and found the GUI pretty easy to figure out.
Maybe I picked a bad example, but there are tons of other things that annoy me in OS X. The maximize button doesn't work properly (I've had this flame war on Mac boards before ... bottom line is, I want to be able to click a button and have a window be fullscreen. Period.)
The doc is terrible. I would much rather have all the wind
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Funny)
I'm sorry but anyone who can run Windows and has been ISSUED a geek card should turn it in immediately.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just because you CAN run Windows doesn't mean you do. In most cases, all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install, and things just work. However, much like hitting yourself with a hammer, just because it's easy doesn't make it a good idea.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost everybody out there, including the true geeks, runs Windows at work because they have to. Linux, Windows servers, XP desktops, Solaris, whatever corporate buys. Everything EXCEPT Macs.
At home we have a Macbook. Why? I don't mind running XP at work, but I'm not shelling out my own dough for Vista. I'd rather give it to Steve.
I think the backlash against Vista, whether justified or not, has caused a lot of people to look at Macs and to some degree Linux.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Funny)
I'd rather give it to Steve
Ya, cause he does more with his money to help the world than that evil bastard Gates at Micro... Oh wait.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Only 1.5 hours? You must not be installing on a laptop, and have a fresh CD that was cut last week.
Installing Windows XP without a pre-made image usually requires the following:
1. Install
2. Download drivers on another machine
3. Install drivers
(about a half-dozen reboots by this point)
4. Install MS patches
(reboot and repeat step 4 a couple times)
5. Now install base software, and its patches
Before you're done, we're talking almost a day of work for a laptop, perhaps half a day for a desktop. (laptops have more obscure drivers to install, and slower hard drives)
Anyone who says Windows is easy to install has either used pre-made image CDs, has only done upgrades, or has never actually installed it.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Interesting)
Corrections (Score:5, Insightful)
all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install
This little bit of folklore deserves to die.
1. Got a system restore disk? (Not an OEM-style installer!) Then sure, many minutes later your "my documents" is gone, but you are pretty much back up to day-1 status.
2. Got an OEM installer disk? How many of those disks do not include the drivers for devices like, ohhh your *ethernet* adapter? That is the purest soul-sucking time sink ever.
Apple's installer is pretty great for this reason. I seem to recall it kept my wife's home files intact.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Assuming you've installed a retail XP with SP2 you now need to do about 60-70 updates or install SP3.
(Not to mention finding the correct drivers for the installed hardware unless like me you are using an ancient Toshiba notebook. Even then, the Microsoft display drivers (notably for S3 in general and some NVidia) are such a POS that you need to find better ones if you want games to work). Then it gets to be more fun - PDF reader, browser, anti-virus , codecs, real alternative, qtlite etc. etc.
You're lucky if you get change from 4-5 hours installing even on a fast machine.
It gets even more interesting upgrading from Vista especially for Acer, HP, Sony notebooks.
Andy
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
Unless I misunderstood you, you're confusing Linux with Windows or they've changed the install process considerably since XP. With Windows you must put the CD in, wait in front of the computer of five minutes, enter a very long string of alphanumeric characters including 1s and ls and Os and 0s and Bs and 13s, if you aren't on the internet you really get the "hitting yourself with a hammer" part as you authenticate, talking to a computer on your cell phone and entering another long string of alphanumerics.
Then you have to sit in front of the computer for another hour or two (or even longer) and tell it that it's OK to reboot itself several times.
When you finally get the OS installed you have to go into Control Panel to configure it like you want it (standard Windows or new kindergarten Crayon style, should the start menu pop up or cover part of the screen, etc.)
Then you have to install all your applications.
With Linux (with Suse or Mandriva, ymmv on other distros) you insert the first CD, choose how you want it to act in a single screen (LILO or GRUB, KDE or Gnome, etc) and what apps you want installed, and since it's all your apps as well as teh OS you have to change CDs when prompted. You don't have to sit there like with Windows, you don't have to install any apps (it's part of the installation process), you only have one reboot at the very end of the process, and your computer is able to do pretty much anything you would want a computer to do (except, of course, play Windows games).
IME Suse or Mandriva take less than an hour, while Windows takes all afternoon. It's easy and intuitive.
I'm not sure about Apple, but IINM you just buy one and plug it in.
Anybody who thinks Linux is hard hasn't tried Linux this century. Now I'll probably get downmodded by Linux geeks who want to keep their 133t cr3dz and don't want everyone to know that Linux installation is a piece of cake that your grandma could probably do.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
2-4 hours is pretty good going. Of course, then you have to install all the software. Wordpad and Paintbrush aren't going to get you very far.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, there are a TON of tools that are windows only. Linux is great, my home server runs it as does my little CNC milling machine (EMC baby!) But until the other OS's get enough critical mass for the major software packages to be ported I've got to have some windows capability everywhere.
The intel switch with the mac was HUGE for me. I was dancing the day that was announced. I now have a mac that can run ALL software.
The parent is 100% correct, windows is a fact of life for certain tasks. That may change, but I doubt it will change quickly.
Sheldon
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
anyone who can't get Windows to run decently should be turning in their geek card already.
Really? Seriously?
Okay. I can get windows to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and a waste of resources. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from windows. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Okay. I can get Ubuntu to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and refuses to recognize the built-in card reader. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from Linux. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them."
What what whaaaaaaat? I'm not allowed to demonstrate you can use that argument for -any- operating suite?
On the up side, the above wouldn't apply to OS X unless I got a clone machine *smirk*
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Interesting)
So what are you doing wrong? XP works beautifully for me and everyone i know. Worked really well for the 100+ users and 150+ machines for which i was sys admin.
Also, learn the difference between facts and opinions.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
As a long-time Windows user who has since switched to both OS X and Linux...
1 - Registry bloat. No other OS keeps app settings and preferences in what really amounts of a gigantic text file. Many apps do NOT remove registry entries correctly (or fully) when uninstalled. Inevitably this file will bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat until it takes forever just to get anything out of it.
2 - System folder bloat. No package manager in Windows, yet things insist on storing dependencies in a shared manner. This is pain, since *nobody* dares remove any library from your system upon uninstall because nobody is sure if anyone else needs it. As you install/uninstall things from your system, this folder will bloat, bloat, bloat. It's incredible how much larger a Windows install can get just 1 year after a fresh reformat.
These things are unavoidable. Your users may well have avoided these issues if their machines were locked like Fort Knox and they were unable to install and tweak to their liking. As a heavy dev who's always trying new tools, the constant install/uninstall cycle takes its toll VERY VERY quickly in Windows, whereas in OS X and Linux the system remains squeaky clean.
Oh, and did I mention that I need admin privileges to do ANYTHING? I can't even install a flash plugin for *myself* without needing full admin privileges to the system. This is lazy programming, and Windows is full of it. If I were a sysadmin I'd be tearing my hair out. It's either: "screw you guys, use the pre-installed software and nothing else", or "have fun with full admin, I'll be here waiting for your f'ed up computer". There's no happy medium.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Informative)
$ apt-cache stats
Total package names : 32368 (1295k)
Normal packages: 24717
Pure virtual packages: 508
Single virtual packages: 1876
Mixed virtual packages: 234
Missing: 5033
That's a lot of packages, and they are all maintained by volunteers.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but lots of different text files. Windows only has two files for everything.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
It does "work well" for them. Of course, that means they can generally run the programs they need at a reasonable speed with a minimum of glitches.
So XP works well enough for folks that are comfortable with it. It doesn't have the rich features, deep pool of easy-to-install applications, lightning speed, or sophisticated visual effects that Linux does, but it does "work well" for them.
It's "good enough" for their work -- which is all they're trying to do. That makes it the right tool for the job.
Personally, though, I find working with Windows to feel like fingernails on a chalkboard compared to Ubuntu.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
AP31R0N: I agree. The rest of my family - non-technical people - use it just fine. I've deployed XP to 500 - 1,500 user networks. I've managed XP in many different scenarios.
Usually, problems with Windows only arise when: You download Malware and install it, or you are trying to do something most people won't do. I've had my share of problems with XP but I'm also really trying to do things that only a geak would do. So it breaks sometimes, and I fix it.
It's just popular to bash Windows. It's not perfect, and there's some annoying ass problems with it, but MacOS ain't no saint either.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
Someone's sig once said: Calling OSX secure is like calling the second fattest girl in the club skinny.
And as for your sig... it's the mac *users* that really bug me. Most of them complain about something they don't understand and praise each other for being rebellious bohemians.
It's a tool and a toy... not a way of life or philosophy!
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Informative)
I've been a Mac user for 2 years now, although I owned a PC for around 14. I've had more headaches using Mac OSX than I've ever had using Windows.
It's always some stupid little things, but it's something stupid in the OS. Like finder will remember the view settings for each individual folder. I can't tell it to use one default view for every folder, someone on a Mac IRC channel suggested I write a shell script that goes through and changes some file in every folder (some file stores the folders view settings.) There should be an easy way to do that
When I purchased my new MacBook Pro I saw it came with a cool little utility that will copy everything over from my old computer. So I hooked up both computers to my gigabit ethernet switch ready to copy, and then it told me it doesn't support network transfers (!!!) I have to hook up the computers to each other using a firewire cable. I don't happen to have spare firewire cables lying around, although I do have tons and tons of ethernet cables (plus the laptops have built in wireless, it can communicate with the other laptop straight out of the box with nothing extra required.) Same thing with Aperture, I can't backup to network storage only an external drive hooked up via USB or Firewire. I can't imagine why anyone would want to rely on an external drive for a backup mechanism.
The single mouse button is often brought up and people are told "You don't need a second mouse button" although every mac program I've ever used has some right click menu, the standard methods of accessing the method with a single button are holding Ctrl then clicking or holding down the mouse button. The problem is, sometimes that doesn't work (like when finder is dying and you need to restart it, which you can only do through the right click menu) so I have to go find a USB mouse, plug it in, hope it works, and then use that to right click.
In contrast I've never found a problem like the ones listed above in Windows that I can't solve. Even if it requires diving into the registry at least there exists a method. Doing anything sufficiently advanced on a Mac seems impossible (even with the unix backend, a simple task like editing
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't comment on the Aperture/network backup issue but...
10.5 has a unified Finder, all windows behave the same at all times... although I think you can still make them unique they default to however you chose to display the last window.
As for the mice... plug in a USB mouse. Its not that hard, and I have never seen one that is unsupported. Additionally, for laptops use two finger clicking. Two fingers on trackpad + click = right click. I find this is even faster/comfortable than having a button since you never have to look or worry about hitting the wrong one.
Similarly, if you are challenged editing text files... well nobody can help you there. Seriously, pico /etc/hosts ? Its not that hard, and there are an abundance of great text editors for the Mac.
I have to say I completely disagree, I used Windows from 3.11 to XP and DOS before those... and in my mere four years of using OS X I have never had a more trouble-free computing experience. The attention to detail is astounding and once you stop expecting it to work like Windows (such as mucking around in obscure settings dialogs) it for the most part DOES "just work" and DOES get the hell out of my way.
As for not finding good open source Applications... I don't understand that either. I've been amazed at the quality of some of the completely free Apps here (Adium, Cyberduck, Colloquy, Drosera, NoobProof, Burn, ClamXav, EZ 7z, UnrarX, MacPar, MAMP, NicePlayer, Max, PureFTPd Manager, Transmission) ... they do a great job following HIG guidelines and I've yet to find a function I couldn't find an App for even though in some cases I do choose to pay for reasonably priced software (Acorn, Cheetah 3D, MoneyWell, LineForm, OmniGraffle, CSSEdit, TextMate, PandoraJam among them...)
No free utilities is a bunch of crap. As for for-pay apps I know this is /. but I find the level of Polish for Mac Shareware a step above that of Windows. Your usage may vary but I hear a lot of unfounded claims...
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
Like finder will remember the view settings for each individual folder. I can't tell it to use one default view for every folder
Yes you can. Open a finder window, set it to the view type you want to set as default. I use List View (Cmd+2). Press Cmd+J to show the View Options pane. Notice how this pane changes as you cycle through the different view modes (Cmd+1-4). Once you adjust the settings to your liking, simply click "Use as Defaults" on the bottom of the View Options pane.
the standard methods of accessing the method with a single button are holding Ctrl then clicking or holding down the mouse button.
I assume you're using a laptop since you said you have to go get a usb mouse in order to right click. In the Keyboard & Mouse section of System Preferences, under "Trackpad" you can check an option labeled "Tap trackpad using two fingers for secondary click." I use it all the time.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when is M$ bashing flamebait on slashdot? Are you new here?
And just because most of us can maintain a windows box doesn't mean we like it - my mechanic maintains my old Land Rover, but it certainly induces headaches.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Since when is M$ bashing flamebait on slashdot? Are you new here?
Commonly accepted flamebait, but flamebait nonetheless.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Flame war == more comments == more page hits == more ad impressions.
:)
Besides, instigating an MS-bashing comment flood is like firing up your favorite game and playing through it in 'easy' mode.
So once in a while, even though it's been done before, we get to have an anti-MS free for all, because it's easy. And fun.
My favorite part are the people who complain about trollish summaries, because I get to imagine how their panties got in such a tight knot.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Interesting)
I argue that it's actually impossible to get Windows to run decently no matter how much of a geek you are because the software is written poorly and is designed to annoy the user.
Ah, counterexamples, the one useful function of anecdotal evidence. I run Vista beautifully. It doesn't get in my way, it runs the software I want it to, it just works. So yes, it is possible. Without much effort, either, I might add.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
Are you sure you have that one right? Macs these days are basically Intel boxes with blinky keyboards and bog standard innards (OK, the MacPro innards are pretty neat but memory card risers have been around since at least S-100 bus days).
It's the Mac users that are bat-shit insane (absent myself, of course - I'm OK, just ask my dog).
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
I did, he said
*sniff* *sniff* *snarl* *growl* *bark* *growl* *bite*
I didn't hear the rest, I was rather distracted from the blood oozing from my arm. Sorry.
Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:5, Interesting)
Then again, if Apple just isn't good at designing certain things, what are they supposed to do? Start selling updated IBM Model-M keyboards with their high-end desktops? Grado's with the iPods? Paint microsoft mice white!!? It's almost unimaginable, and I see that as a problem.
This is my main beef with Apple. They're too image conscious. Admittedly, some of their user-base just wants to be fashionable, but is being fashionable really a long-term plan for success? Given how much of an asshole he is, sooner or later Jobs is going to become "uncool". Increased market share and, hence, lessened uniqueness isn't going to help. Normal people will use uncool hardware if it's *good*. This is a lesson I feel Apple needs to learn.
Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:5, Informative)
As for the earbuds, you're right, but it doesn't matter. There's no point in them including Grados since well over 90% of their market won't appreciate or care about the difference (they're playing mp3s anyway!), and those of us who do care already plan to spend $100+ on something better. Personally I wouldn't want to be locked into an audiophile solution chosen by Apple -- I'd rather throw out the crappy ones they include and use my Shures rather than have to pay a large premium for good earbuds that I probably wouldn't use anyway.
Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd have to sort of agree - it's a mixed bag and it is frustrating. Stupid things like the recessed jack on the iPhone, stupid things like the Mighty Mouse (come on Jobs, give me a break, I've had $5.00 junk box mice work better than that thing). The new keyboards are interesting - When I got my Mac Pro I immediately ditched the keyboard for some old Model M knockoff that I had sitting about. After a while, I decided to play with it and I'm deciding I like it. The feel is actually pretty good. Of course, this is a completely subjective thing and YMMV, but yeah, sometimes Apple just gets Too Cute.
(Opens up the MacPro - stares fondly at one of the best industrial designs around - closes it and goes back to "work".)
Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:5, Informative)
1. The stupid trackball gets clogged very easily and is very hard to clean.
2. The stupid trackball is too small for fine control. Great for whizzing the cursor along vast expanses of screen, bad for little adjustements.
3. If I don't have the mouse perfectly aligned, I can't get the "right mouse" button - I get the "side button" which defaults to Expose, which is useful, but isn't the right mouse button. It's just over designed and not overly well executed. They could have just put a blasted button in there instead of getting all fancy.
4. The whole thing is hard take apart and clean. I'm sorry, mice and keyboards need to be periodically cleaned or tossed and the MM is a little pricey to toss routinely.
5. The ergonomics aren't very good, I much prefer the Logitech mice. Easier to use for extended periods of time.
Of course, it's all quite subjective. I'm just glad that there are good third party options.
Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:4, Informative)
You missed one.
If you are resting your left finger on the shell and you right click, it left clicks.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually those are pretty good innards all around (Score:5, Interesting)
...and at this juncture some of the best Windows computers are Macs. You heard me right. They also make some of the best Linux computers. Now that MacIntel is the standard architecture for Macintosh, some people are actually running Windows or Linux on them. The reason why they do it? It's because quality control at the major PC manufacturers is down in the dumpster. If you want something that's built as good on the PC side, you have to go with boutique manufacturers like VoodooPC or Alienware, and even those are questionable because VoodooPC is now owned by HP and Alienware is owned by Dell. Since Lenovo took over the ThinkPad and ThinkCentre lines from IBM, quality has gone down the crapper quicker than you can say "ni hao."
Of course, part of the experience of Macs includes Mac OS X. And the folks who buy Macs only to put Windows or Linux on them are kind of unclear on the concept, in my not so humble opinion. Mac OS X is right now the best Unix or Unix-like operating system on the desktop. Now that Leopard is at 10.5.4 it is just plain awesome and just plain works. 10.5.2 was good for me too and so was 10.5.3, but I had no occasion to use 802.11n connectivity and I know that broke with 10.5.2. With 10.5.4 even those with 802.11n wireless access points are happy.
Still, if it means more people with Macs regardless of what OS they run, that's fine by me. More Macs sold equals more visibility for Mac. Everyone assumes that Macs run Mac OS X so the bigger the market share the more likely people will consider Mac users as more than fringies.
Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about it. HP sells a consumer laptop for $500 that includes all the bells and whistles, a webcam, shiny media buttons, etc. etc. Then they sell a business end laptop for 3x as much that is slower and has less features. Do you think there is a reason for this?
Consumer laptops are made with the absolute cheapest parts HP can source THAT DAY. Two laptops sitting next to each other on the shelf at the store can have different parts but look exactly the same. The quality control in this situation is, understandably, not good.
Business machines are the same in an entire series. They use good, proven hardware, and every single machine uses the same stuff. That way you can flash the same OS image onto all of them without problems. You can't do that with the consumer stuff.
So when people compare Apple to HP or other manufacturers, keep in mind that it's the business class machines that you should be looking at. Apple doesn't use commodity hardware - they use the same piece in every unit in a series, and they use parts that are high quality and proven to work well.
This is why people think Apple is expensive, when it's actually quite competitive.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you sure you have that one right? Macs these days are basically Intel boxes with blinky keyboards and bog standard innards (OK, the MacPro innards are pretty neat but memory card risers have been around since at least S-100 bus days).
It's the Mac users that are bat-shit insane (absent myself, of course - I'm OK, just ask my dog).
Do me a favor by designing, building and implementing the clean case, inside and out, motherboard connectors, fans, etc., that's in the Mac Pro, iMac or Laptops they produce and show me the equivalent off-the-shelf clone available to compete against Apple.
I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Interesting)
when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX? I have seen all sorts of apps that run on Mac and/or PC's but not linux. One would think it would almost be easier to "not emulate" the OSX software, as it is mostly unix based. If more software starts coming out for mac and PC, it might be easier to get the Mac software running under linux.
Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Funny)
It's a "compatibility layer", you insensitive clod!
Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, my post was a bit unclear. I want a project that will let me run OSX apps on a linux machine, just like with WINE, we can run Win32 apps on linux machines..
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX?
When enterprising Mac users develop it.
GNUstep (Score:5, Informative)
That would be GNUstep http://gnustep.org/ [gnustep.org]
It's got a long way to go, but eventually, they intend to make .apps from OSX run natively. Remember mac OSX is really NeXTstep 5 (or something).
Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Informative)
The reason is that Mac software works completely differently. The POSIX syscalls are the same, but almost everything in between is completely different. Not like Toyota-Ferrari, different, we're talking Schwinn-Ferrari different.
The Win32 API that Wine implements is a C API, so a clean version can be written from scratch by anyone who knows C and takes the time to do it. Lots of potential users there.
The Cocoa APIs of Mac OS X are written in Objective-C, a language which few people know. They are more expansive than the Win32 API, and since they are object-oriented the specification is quite a bit more complex.
There is a Free sort-of-implementation called GNUStep, which actually conforms to the earlier OPENSTEP specification, plus their own add-ons. The GNUStep people now make tracking changes to Cocoa a priority, so there is source compatibility, and there is something called Renaissance which allows users to create use a single file for user interface design.
However, I don't think GNUStep is binary compatible, even if it's built on top of Darwin and running on identical hardware. But if it's binary compatibility you want, the GNUStep codebase is the best place to start (just watch out for lawyers).
An interesting note, even though the two are binary compatible, because NeXT/OPEN/GNUStep/Cocoa applications are actually directories of multiple files, it's theoretically possible to have one single build that could handle either API, on a variety of architectures.
Astonishing indeed! (Score:5, Insightful)
While those numbers are not astonishing
Not astonishing? A single company, offering a proprietary product*, is outdoing nearly all of several hundred companies combined who build to a given standard! Astonishing indeed!
* - including hardware, OS, and a broad range of application software
Re:Astonishing indeed! (Score:4, Interesting)
"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Interesting)
Because it has reached double digit
Re:"Magic 10%" (Score:4, Funny)
Double digits? That's just two fingers....
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The other 90% is perspiration, or something to that effect.
Re:"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Funny)
10% is the glass ceiling for Apple marketshare. It is estimated that roughly 10% of the population is gay; beyond that, Apple is going to face an uphill battle.
Reaching corollary (Score:5, Interesting)
Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?
Wow, talk about a strange corollary. Linux desktop adoption has nothing at all to do with Mac market share. It would have been just as valid to write, "Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that lead a surge in kitten adoptions?"
Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.
Re:Reaching corollary (Score:5, Funny)
Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.
Whoa, there. Why would we want to adopt a pet which loathes our existence no matter how much good we do for it? I mean, come on. That's like having a really cranky girlfriend/wife without the sex! Or a teenager. Neither of which is something you want.
Re:Reaching corollary (Score:5, Funny)
Whoa, there. Why would we want to adopt a pet which loathes our existence no matter how much good we do for it?
Sound like you need The Engineer's Guide to Cats... [youtube.com]
...and if you still can't stand them, there's a simple method to make a cat sound like a dog:
1. Douse cat in gasoline.
2. Flick a lit match at the cat, and presto:
3. It goes "*WOOF!*"
Thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitresses and bartenders, and please.... try the fish.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They're not quite as disconnected as kitten adoption.
The more people that use a non-Windows OS, the less of a monopoly Windows has on the ecosystem, and that will make application developers think about portability and compatibility, which will make more software and services available on Linux.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do you say that? I see Linux desktop adoption being more likely helped by the success of a non-Windows OS than not.
People use Windows because a) they think it's the only OS and b) they have to because everyone else uses it. If Windows has a big competitor then everyone becomes aware that (a) is untrue and (b) is not only untrue, but the reasons for using the OS your friends, family and boss uses fade away because compatible software and document formats start springing up on multiple platforms.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It may seem like somewhat of a stretch, but once you establish a beachead on the OS marketshare it's easier for businesses to adopt and support other alternatives. They won't have the excuse "Well *everyone* runs windows, so we just need to code/webdevelop for them."
Basically the same thing that happened once Firefox reached a critical share. You can't well ignore 10% of your paying customers. Some companies may then realize that it's to their advantage to use OpenGL, for example, or release applications fo
headache inducing? (Score:4, Interesting)
Any browser can induce a boatload of headaches to those who are uninformed on how to use it. Aside from Vista and all of it's obvious headaches such as drivers and legacy software not working, XP and 2k were not quite as bad.
I think anyone will agree that even Linux can cause plenty of headaches as well if one is not careful. Sendmail was one of those battles I had a while ago.
Linus causes plenty of headaches (Score:4, Insightful)
At least Windows users don't have to open a console window and recompile their webcam driver after the monthly patch.
This is total FUD (Score:5, Funny)
If TV and the movies have taught me anything, it's that at least 90% of the computers and laptops out there are Apples. Hell, even alien civilizations use Macs on their motherships.
Sounds Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Success!
Re:Sounds Great (Score:4, Funny)
Afterall, if you really want to gain ground against an evil closed-source monopoly that charges too much for it's products...
Are you referring to Apple or Microsoft?
Re:Sounds Great (Score:4, Interesting)
it makes perfect sense to switch to another company that even more protective of its source
What, something happened to Apple Open Source [apple.com]?
Oh no, it's all there, still tracking the latest release of OS X.
Damn, you scared me for a second...
(yes, I know they're only 99.44% pure and hold out a few kernel components, but "even more protective" than Microsoft? Give me a rotating plaid gold-decked break!)
Re:Sounds Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe you're not understanding the power of being a monopolist. It matters very little what people switch to, so long as it is not controlled by Microsoft. If there are enough players in the desktop OS market so that Microsoft cannot control the direction of the industry and use it to prevent innovation in that and related markets then we all win.
Good or bad we don't want to replace MS's domination of the industry with Apple's, we want t make sure one company doesn't have domination so all the companies have to work for us and keep us happy to make money.
Vista: Unix's MVP (Score:5, Insightful)
Games and Marketshare (Score:4, Insightful)
I REALLY hope that increased Marketshare will motivate games being ported to OS X. I fear it will have to be at least 20% for that to happen though.
The New Apple Walled Garden (Score:4, Interesting)
Geeks and enthusiasts wearing Wordpress t-shirts, using laptops covered in Data Portability, Microformats and RSS stickers lined up enthusiastically on Friday to purchase a device that is completely proprietary, controlled and wrapped in DRM. The irony was lost on some as they ran home, docked their new devices into a proprietary media player and downloaded closed source applications wrapped in DRM.
I am referring to the new iPhone - and the new Apple iPhone SDK that allows developers to build 'native' applications. The announcement was greeted with a web-wide standing ovation, especially from the developer community. The same community who demand all from Microsoft, feel gifted and special when Apple give them an inch of rope. When Microsoft introduced DRM into Media Player it was bad bad bad - and it wasn't even mandatory, it simply allowed content owners a way to distribute and sell content from anywhere.
Apple has wrapped the iPhone SDK in enough licensing, security controls and right management that it would make the Microsoft Active Desktop team blush. The phone and platform that is certain to soon take second spot behind Symbian in the smart phone market is also the most restricted and closed. Applications can only be installed from a single source, iTunes, and open source applications and distribution is near impossible. How do you install an iPhone application without iTunes? Where are the community advocates arguing for a standard interface, openess and free code?
What is more worrying is what the next move could be. Now that there is an AppStore with applications in iTunes, why wouldn't Apple move next to distribute all applications through iTunes - both desktop and mobile? There is no reason for them not to - the response to AppStore has been so enthusiastic that it is almost assured that you will start seeing desktop apps distributed in the same way. As soon as users are ground into looking at everything through iTunes, distribution of software in the traditional manner would be near impossible. Apple would become the gatekeeper, and both developers and users will enthusiastically pay the toll in exchange for pretty devices with pretty applications.
Apple has a very strong following in the open source community, and I can no longer understand it nor justify my own support (I am writing this on a Macbook). They built OS X on FreeBSD (a project I have enthusiastically supported, contributed to and been a user of for 10 years or more), they built Safari on KHTML, and are now using libraries such as SproutCore in MobileMe. They have taken open source and everything it built and leveraged it to get to market faster - yet they have now, with iTunes and the new SDK, built a layer on top of it that excludes others. For Apple, open source is great when it furthers their own goals, but not when using it with Apple software where it may further the goals of others.
The solution is simple. If you truly believe in open standards, open source and the good that it has created, then don't accept it. The spirit of open source was about building on the work of others in a transparent fashion, as the gains further the common good of all. Despite not taking over the desktop market, the philosophy and its resultants have destroyed the old enterprise market and many others. Open source and standards keep Microsoft and other big companies on their toes, the movement as a whole and the philosophy is very real. The solution isn't to adopt new licenses to try and prevent this, as it results in the mess that is GPL v 3.
It should be very possible to attach a simple BSD license to code, and if a large company utilizes the effort from others in a way that is unacceptable - the market should be able to sort that out, we simply wont buy it. The community needs to do more than just wear their support for openess and standards on their sleeves (and on their laptops). The problem with Apple is that the blind demand is driven by a distorted reality, so those same developers who poured thousands of hours into the BSD kernel now turn around and purchase an iPhone running that code, but it is now tied up in DRM, licenses and restrictions placed there by others.
Normal people using macs now? (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of the Mac owners I know are normal people. Either students that got an imac laptop from their school, older people who wanted an easy to use computer, or an artist (musician, photographer, graphic designer, etc.) who wanted a powerful machine that wouldn't get infected with a ton of spyware and viruses in a week.
None of the Mac owners I know (besides myself) are very tech savvy, they just know that their iPod works great, their PC is always infected with "viruses" (usually some spyware they installed cause it promised free smileys), and their friend's Mac never has any problems. Personally I didn't buy a Mac just for a different OS. If I want to toy around in something other than Windows, I just go install Linux on whatever old computers are lying around the house. I bought the Mac specifically for Aperture, and Final Cut Pro since I do a lot of photography and video work. I know there exists open source software or expensive Windows software to do that stuff, it's just none of it is as powerful or easy to use as the Mac versions. I don't need Mac OS to have a stable computer, I just like the software that exists for the Mac.
Why would OSX increase linux sales? (Score:5, Interesting)
I use linux/*nix all day long at work, and I have a mac at home, yet there's very few things that I use on OSX that are *nix related. Maybe running 'top' is about it, and that's a rarity. I picked OSX because of the applications and how they are all integrated in with each other, pure and simple. My laptop at work is a company provided XP system and while not having the polish/eye candy that OSX has, it gets the job done.
When linux distros have the same ease of use, smooth upgrades and most importantly application integration (with each other AND the OS), then I can see people like myself thinking about saving a few bucks and going with Linux instead.
I assume that when I buy a dishwasher, the interface is intuitive and it just works, why should we treat computers any differently?
Apples and Oranges? (Score:3, Insightful)
These figures just count units shipped in the US, they exclude mini-notebooks and handhelds and don't take into account profitability or unit costs.
If you go by market capitalisation, Apple isn't behind Dell and HP, it's ahead of both, but behind IBM who don't even get a look-in in the units shipped list.
Confirmed: (Score:5, Funny)
2008 will be the year of OS X on the desktop! :-)
The Wireless Barrier (Score:5, Insightful)
Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.
Curious timing for this announcement (Score:3, Interesting)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I figure the Mac revolution would have happened when OSX was released, or maybe when the iPod was launched. Why should the surge happen today?
Never enough market share if you're in 2nd place (Score:5, Insightful)
"Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"
Absolutely not.
Some of you may recall that, back in the late 1980s, the Mac's market share was about 18%. For a period of time lasting into the mid-1990s, Apple was the #1 maker of PCs (IBM, Compaq and Dell rounded out the top 4; HP, Packard Bell, Gateway and a few others fought over the scraps).
If you take into consideration the fact that Macs lasted longer than PCs in those days and Mac users tended to buy more software (claims supported by numerous published Gartner studies), you could make a fair argument that Macs represented as much as perhaps a third of the total installed base and of the potential software market.
This was not seen as sufficient. Throughout the entire mid-80s through late-90s, the PC press maintained a steady drum-beat of, "Apple doesn't have enough market share to survive." Of course Apple's not going to make it if the press keeps telling everyone they can't! Combine this with some of Apple's strategic management blunders, and you have a perfect recipe for also-ran status.
Not that any of this is necessary to ensure Windows' continued market dominance. Most businesses are going to use what other businesses in their industry use. Most people are going to buy for home use what they are comfortable with at work. Windows' prevalence is its own best selling feature. This is why Microsoft enjoys a "natural monopoly", and why it will take a bigger disruptive market force than anything we've seen so far in the past 20+ years to change it.
Mainstream demographics too. (Score:4, Insightful)
"normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
What's really interesting is the demographics of the people who buy Apple computers. You think it would be young people. Not now Apple costomers tend to be much older and much better educated then the average PC buyer. Turns out if you are a 40+ year old professional with a graduate level education you are a prime demographic for Apple's Mac. These people tend to NOT be geeks of "on the fringe" Certainly these people are as full on mainstream as it gets. (and there have the money to buy what they like.)
As opposed to... (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to Microsoft's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing?
Re:The ACTUAL choice is . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never known anyone to buy their first Apple desktop or laptop without trying it out first. Surely they notice the interface is different.
Are you living in 1992? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple has seen these numbers before. They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again. They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share. They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.
I've got my share of -1 postings from ripping Apple but on this you are off base. I think thi would have been true in 1992 but it is certainly not true today. It's a completely different world out there. Personal computers running Windows have become corporate computing appliances, not personal ones, where Apple has doggedly focused on being a personal computer and is imaginatively building a software, service, and shopping stack designed to build a premium consumer brand.
If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.
Apple has double digit growth yearly. Apple stock is kicking total butt right now in a stock market that sucks. I wish I would have bought them a couple of years ago when Jobs first came back... I'd be retired!
Secondly, Apple hardware is hardly anemic. Apple's new PowerMac, for example, is the latest Harperton Xeon and while it might be a tad pricier than the equivalent from the likes of Dell, I guarantee you that the entire service experience, from Apple store to home, is very, very good.
Christ, I'm talking myself into buying a Macintosh... and that's the thing about Apple - you walk into the store, and it reflects the sort of perfection that Americans expect from products.. indeed, Apple has gone beyond even Japanese cars when it comes to the detail of their products...
Re:Magical number (Score:5, Funny)
Magic isn't supposed to be logical. That's why it's magic. If it was logical it'd be something else. But not magic.
Re:Mac Users are Silly (Score:4, Insightful)
Their "shitty business decisions" as you put it, currently have them placed as the 12th largest company in the US with a market cap of over $152 billion, right behind Google and IBM. As far as marketshare goes, there are steps that they could take to pull closer to Microsoft in terms of OS adoption, but in terms of profitability, they're doing just fine.