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Technology (Apple) Businesses Apple Technology

The Apple II At 30 299

Posted by kdawson from the hacker's-dream-and-appliance dept.
turnitover sends us to eWEEK for an appreciation of the Apple II on the 30th anniversary of its shipping. An overview of the history of the Apple II puts it in context. A nice tidbit: how important the floppy drive was to sales. The article quotes Sellam Ismail, the proprietor of VintageTech, which maintains archives of computers, documents, and software: "You could think of the Apple II's importance on two levels — the Woz level and the Steve Jobs level." The former refers to its allure to hackers, and the latter to its appliance-like polish, a first for its time, There is also an interview with Woz, who says, "[A]t the start there were no computers in the home — we had to make the word computer compatible with homes."
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The Apple II At 30

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  • The first computer I owned (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Purity Of Essence ( 1007601 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @09:34PM (#19406195)
    I got an Apple ][+ with 48k back in 1981. I had a chance to use a couple of computers before then, but this was the first one I spent any real time with. I taught myself to program on it and it sparked my life long interest in computer graphics and game development (which I attempt to do professionally today). I have the awesome manuals that came with it to thank. That's the way to do a computer right. And now it makes me feel very, very old. I wish I still had that particular computer, I should have never given it away. I still have an Apple IIe, two Apple //c's, and a Laser 128. What Woz did with Apple is the most inspiring and amazing thing. What an engineer!

    • Re:The first computer I owned (Score:5, Insightful)

      by statusbar ( 314703 ) <jeffk@statusbar.com> on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @10:13PM (#19406465) Homepage Journal
      I feel old too [jdkoftinoff.com]

      My Apple ][ was something that challenged and taught me.

      Woz is brilliant and I spend countless hours pouring over the big red book with the fold out schematic of the Apple ][. Not only open source but open hardware too. The Apple ][ was fundamental in my development as a computer programmer.

      Computers now have lost the special aspects of the Apple ][... simplicity and understandability.

      --jeffk++

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Purity Of Essence ( 1007601 )
        Great article. At first glance I thought I was looking in a mirror through a time tunnel, "Is that me?" Nice site, when I saw 68000 and MIDI experience, I thought, "Hmmmm, I bet this guy has an Atari ST lurking about". Loved my 1040STFM and spent an awful lot of time programming it. What kind of machine has a picture of J. R. "Bob" Dobbs in ROM? The awesome kind.
        • I have always been a dyed in the wool Atari nut. I started with an Atari 2600, then 400, 800, 130XE, 520STM, 1040STe, Mega STe then Falcon. Much as I loved the whole Atari thing, and with the ST I programmed them, wrote about them, played games, did my accounts, ran spreadsheets and all that good stuff, and despite waging many a 'My ST beats your Amiga' war, I can now come clean and say that actually, the ST was a bit crap. It was OK in hi-res with the laser printer and top notch monitor but in most other r

      • Re:The first computer I owned (Score:5, Insightful)

        by wall0159 ( 881759 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @11:38PM (#19406959)
        That's what I love about Linux. I know the hardware is still closed, but one can go into /etc and look at the scripts that control the system - in (almost) human readable form!
        Now I'm no hardcore hacker (basic bash is as gritty as I get) but it's beautiful that the system is configured by a heap of text files and scripts.

        Having said that - /etc could certainly be better and more logically organised!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Tomy ( 34647 )
      Fond memories here too. My first Apple was the Apple IIe, and I was "teh sh!t" among my friends because I had two floppy drives, and could leave the system disc in and have a data disc without swapping. I also had the Pascal p-code system, a whopping 128k of memory, and the original AppleWorks. I learned to program in higher level languages, and even created music on that system. It wasn't my first computer, I had built a 6503 single board computer that I interfaced to an old analog synthesizer and had to p

      • Yeah, UCSD p-code Pascal! :) (Score:4, Interesting)

        by PaulBu ( 473180 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @11:33PM (#19406913) Homepage
        My first real computer (not to count my very dear hex-codes programmable calculator, though at that time I did not know it was hex codes, just some numbers and first couple letters, in 4th or 5th grade :) ) was a Bulgarian clone of Apple ][. Yes, with (equally pirated) p-code system written in that strange unknown place called UCSD, had something to do with mythical California... I still do not understand how did they fit p-code interpreter, compiler, libraries (including graphics), editor and file browser runnable on 32K and loadable from a 5" floppy (it was not 360K, more like 128K, right?)... Eat THAT, JVM! :)

        Moscow, 1984, I think... (Hmm, interesting year... ;) ).

        Paul B.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by shess ( 31691 )
          You must have been using a different USCD than I recall. My memory was of swapping disks. Edit, save, swap disks, compile, swap disks, run, ad nauseum. You could arrange certain combinations to live on the same disk, but that combination did not include "Everything you needed to do stuff".

          Which meant that when we got a Z80 card in one machine and ran Turbo Pascal, which was just everything-in-one-place, it was like heaven.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by PaulBu ( 473180 )
            Hmm, funny -- somehow I do not remember swapping disks that much... Maybe due to one of:

            1) Me writing bug-free code right at the first attempt *even back then*! -- most likely, and I stand by it! -- especially since one of my big favs was producing "random music" for everyone to "enjoy" (rand(), beep(fq) and delay() -- sorry for C syntax -- in a loop can do wonders to atract attention of 7-graders :) ).
            2) Me being able to grab a two-floppy box in class -- I doubt that...
            3) YOU having had a memory leak -- I

        • a 5" floppy (it was not 360K, more like 128K, right?)

          5.25" and each side was 143K, you could punch another notch in the disk (if it wasn't already so punched) and use both sides, for a whopping 286K per physical disk. Mine had the DuoDisk drive unit, two 5.25" drives in one chassis. So high-tech. Also had the RGB monitor (vs. composite or green-screen) that worked like a champ until, after ~7 years or so, it developed diagonal lines that appeared after it warmed up. Taught myself AppleSoft BASIC, the

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by drerwk ( 695572 )
            143K was standard, but 160K was possible. I wrote a modified RWTS when I was at Infocom so that we would not have to disk flip. Each track on the disk had 16 sectors by default, and since it was 'soft' sectored, there was a large header in marking the start of each sector. By making each track one sector I was able to recover that space and make it usable.
            BTW - Infocom games ran on a ZVM - Zip Virtual Machine. The small one was 128K of virtual memory runnable on a 32K Apple. We were able to go to a 256K V

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by ncc74656 ( 45571 ) *

          (it was not 360K, more like 128K, right?)

          140K, or 280K if you made it a "flippy" and used the other side. (I should still have a notcher around here someplace...not a cheap single-hole punch, either, but the gadget that made a rectangular cutout in the right place.)

          My DuoDisk was able to reliably seek over 38 tracks instead of the usual 35, so I had more than a few disks formatted that way for 152K per side. IIRC, you didn't even need to patch ProDOS; you just needed a disk formatter that would go be

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by PaulBu ( 473180 )
            Yep, 140 is right, and making notches too! (Worked on some IBM XTs as well, as far as I can remember! :) ).

            Paul B.

            P.S. Your .signature reminded me to put something alond the lines of ronpaulrevolution.org into mine...

    • 1982 (Score:3, Insightful)

      by simpl3x ( 238301 )
      Sort of amazing that this was so long ago. I had an education version of the Apple II (Bell and Howell) with a floppy. If we want to emulate the possibilities of something like this, a real concerted effort at platform development needs to happen. The concept of print graphics (I'm a designer) is not long for the world, and frankly neither is the concept of a personal computer. The platform is the network (sorry Sun you missed it.).

      Framing thought around computing is the future, and it is platform independe

    • The Call That Changed a Life (Score:4, Insightful)

      by reporter ( 666905 ) on Wednesday June 06, 2007 @02:30AM (#19407917) Homepage
      What is the call that changed a life?

      call -151

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by TheLink ( 130905 )
      I had an Apple II clone (called Viking-X), and later on a genuine Apple IIGS (and that was really expensive not even factoring in inflation!).

      The early manuals were wonderful (the clone I had came with a manual that was a copy of 3 apple manuals combined ;) ).

      At about 8 years old, I learnt BASIC and 6502 machine code (cycle counting etc) from just that manual and the Apple II clone. I still keep that manual around, and I think people shouldn't underestimate what children can learn given decent sources of in
  • What's the big thing that seems to have changed at Apple over 30 years?

    In 1977, Apple Computer included the schematics for all of the motherboard and CPU design for the Apple ][.

    In 2006, Apple Ceased & Desisted [macobserver.com] a site for merely linking to a service manual.

    Please come back Woz, we miss you.

    • Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by TheRealMindChild ( 743925 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @09:42PM (#19406257) Homepage Journal
      The face of computer business has changed. It is all about patents and copyright now... not providing a good product to the consumer.
      • The face of computer business has changed. It is all about patents and copyright now... not providing a good product to the consumer.

        Yup. Companies like MS & Apple seem to prefer buying out other companies & suing competitors rather than actually innovating.

        We need some engineers like Woz back in positions of importance again....

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by servognome ( 738846 )

        The face of computer business has changed. It is all about patents and copyright now... not providing a good product to the consumer.
        That's what happens when you change something from a hobby to a means for survival.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Whiney Mac Fanboy ( 963289 ) *
          That's what happens when you change something from a hobby to a means for survival.

          Means for survival? I think you mispelt enormous high-margin profit.

          • Means for survival? I think you mispelt enormous high-margin profit.
            That's my point. Once you change something from a hobby into trying to make a living, either your own greed or the greed of others will result in corruption.
            It's human nature, if you've got nothing to lose you take chances; once you have something to lose you become protective. Bands sell out, Apple locks down everything they create, and Google changes to be less evil than anybody else.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by jollyreaper ( 513215 )

      What's the big thing that seems to have changed at Apple over 30 years?
      What's changed? Two things. First, changing the logo from that dated rainbow thing to a sleek and chic flat color. Second, sticking an "i" in front of every product. I eagerly await the deployment of the iRack.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGHty_S0TU0 [youtube.com]

    • Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by westlake ( 615356 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @10:34PM (#19406565)
      What's the big thing that seems to have changed at Apple over 30 years?
      In 1977, Apple Computer included the schematics for all of the motherboard and CPU design for the Apple ][.

      In 1935 your Grandad's Hallicrafters shortwave set came with a schematic. In 1965 your Dad's RCA Color TV did not. What begins as the private preserve of the technical hobbyist becomes domesticated and mass market.

      • Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:4, Informative)

        by Ucklak ( 755284 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @11:04PM (#19406755)
        My 1981 13" Mitsubishi ColorTV came with schematics.
        My 1983 JVC VCR ($500 retail) came with schematics.
        My 1989 19" Panasonic Stereo TV ($700 Retail) came with schematics.
        My 2001) 43" Hitachi Projection HDTV (monitor 1080i/540p) has schematics available that I used to replace the convergence chips with.

        It is true that most electronics - especially the Wal*Mart disposable type - do not have schematics. I was actually shocked that my 43" TV has them available for the public.
        What I find offensive is that some appliance parts (refrigerator and dishwasher) from some manufacturers are not available to the general public - at least in my experience. I've read that some specialty ICs for TVs are only available to contract holders (repair shops) for said manufacturer.
        • My 2001) 43" Hitachi Projection HDTV (monitor 1080i/540p) has schematics available that I used to replace the convergence chips with.

          2001 puts you in the category of early adopter for HD projection.

          There can't have been many even among those who had the skills who would have willingly attempted do-it-yourself surgery on so expensive of piece of unfamiliar hardware.

          What I find offensive is that some appliance parts (refrigerator and dishwasher)from some manufacturers are not available to the general publ

          • There can't have been many even among those who had the skills who would have willingly attempted do-it-yourself surgery on so expensive of piece of unfamiliar hardware.

            I have. And I don't even have skills. But what I lack in skills I make up for in lack of money.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jonwil ( 467024 )
          My Centrex 51cm CRT TV came with schematics (although most of the page is taken up by a couple large square boxes representing custom ASICs)

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by hal2814 ( 725639 )
          "What I find offensive is that some appliance parts (refrigerator and dishwasher) from some manufacturers are not available to the general public - at least in my experience."

          It's generally up to the parts supplier to decide whether or not to sell to the general public. The company that I recently bought a dishwasher timer from has several branches but only the one nearest me sells to the general public. The other branches in that same company do not.

          And for what it's worth, my $250 Frigidaire dishwasher

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by profplump ( 309017 )
      I don't disagree with the principle you're arguing, but the example it silly. First, the schematics for a modern computer would be A) huge and B) useless to anyone who doesn't own a fabrication plant. You physically can't build a modern computer at home, not matter what kind of mad soldering and taping skills you have, and it would be a waste of time and disk space to include a complete schematic.

      I'm guessing that the C&D has more to do with protecting their currently fragile channel sales and service m
      • I'm guessing that the C&D has more to do with protecting their currently fragile channel sales and service more than any particular desire to suppress access to documentation in general.

        I think it had more to do with attempting to supress online criticism of Apple's hardware products.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jonwil ( 467024 )
          Also, its aimed at making it harder for people (in, say, a class action lawsuit) to point and say "the apple service manual clearly lists a fix for caused by " therefore apple is clearly aware of and should give us compensation/replacement hardware/a free fix/whatever

  • The D5 clip of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates is good.. (Score:4, Informative)

    by CatOne ( 655161 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @09:46PM (#19406283)
    SJ gives a good overview of the original goals of the Apple ][ and later the Mac. He gives interesting details of the Apple ][... "we wanted people to be able to code themselves," and on Woz's implementation of Integer Basic and how broken it was (and that Woz knew he needed to fix it with something that supported floating point, but never got around to it). Was pretty neat.

    There are some clips on the "All things Digital" conference site, and I believe on iTunes as well.

  • Slots (Score:2, Funny)

    by TrashGod ( 752833 )
    From TFA: "[Jobs] opposed the inclusion of expansion slots... Woz himself had to demand their inclusion, and the two compromised on having four."

    Of course, the Apple ][ had seven (7) slots.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      8, actually; they were numbered 0-7
      • An easy mistake to make, since the //e [wikipedia.org] and IIGS [wikipedia.org] dropped slot 0.

        (The //e aux slot was quite different, and on PAL models it was mostly mutually exclusive with slot 3 - being placed directly inline with it - making for a 6-slot Apple II.)

        SLM
      • Yeah, but slot 0 was a bit different, wasn't it?

        Still, you have to wonder why the article has that line about 4 slots - there wasn't ever a ][ with 4 slots - unless there was one in some secret Apple development location somewhere.
    • Brings back good memories :)

  • RTFM = Best Evar.. BASIC, etc, etc (Score:5, Interesting)

    by j-stroy ( 640921 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @10:00PM (#19406379)
    The BEST thing about starting with the Apple ][ was the manuals. They explained clearly and with examples how to use the computer and write BASIC programs. Nothing since has been as comprehensive, or easy to use.

    There are so many layers and problems which todays desktop make difficult, and were easy back then. A much better introduction to computers couldn't be had.
    • Well, the Red book is okay, but I think that the later generation of manuals was better.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Hao Wu ( 652581 )
      The WORST thing is that even today, there are people who think Macs are only slightly better versions of the Apple ][. This, from people who only check email and perhaps play computer games... their systems bludgeoned by spyware and viruses... calling tech support over forgotten passwords and minor printing difficulties...

    • I have a working Apple //c that, while seldom used any more, I plan on using to introduce my son to programming when he's ready.

      I began learning to write code on an Apple IIe and an NCR Decision Mate V, and I firmly believe that the reason I was so engrossed at such an early age was because of the simplicity of those machines! (esp. the Apple... it had COLOR!!!)

      I don't have any software for it right now, but I still have my old binders with the 65C02 assembler instruction set and my notes of the peek and po

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) *
      The BEST thing about starting with the Apple ][ was the manuals. They explained clearly and with examples how to use the computer and write BASIC programs. Nothing since has been as comprehensive, or easy to use.

      Totally agree. I actually keep a set of Apple ][c manuals around on my bookshelf, as an example/reminder of what good technical writing (and illustrating!) is.

      The authors of those manuals managed to take a subject that was completely and utterly foreign to many of their readers, and make it comprehe
    • Even better than the BASIC manuals.... the Technical reference manual, that most dealers would give to you for free or nearly so if you asked for it.

      The tech reference manual had a full schematic for the motherboard on a fold out 20" x 30" sheet that looked like a National Geographic map, included a fairly detailed memory map, pin out diagrams for the peripherial cards with expected voltage levels and even a physical diagram for making your own boards, I/O memory locations and signal levels, a complete 6502
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • I particularly remember the example that went something like this:

      10 HELLFREEZESOVER = 0; (or was is FALSE?)
      20 DO UNTIL HELLFREEZESOVER;

      [Code]

      100 ENDO;

      I can still remember it after all these years. Those were good manuals and they taught me a lot.

  • uh huh (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @10:03PM (#19406397)
    But does it run Vista?

    *duck*
  • It was color that made the Apple so successful. Anything else, on the market, close to Apple's price was monochrome. Color just knocked people's socks off.

  • Floppy Drive (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Lije Baley ( 88936 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @10:56PM (#19406695)
    The value of the floppy drive is best appreciated by those of us who spent hours typing in code only to entrust it to that gambling device which was the cassette tape drive, or to face the reality of having no storage device at all. I remember leaving my trusty Commodore 64 on for a few days straight before I got my tape drive.

  • Good old times... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Illogical Spock ( 1058270 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @11:01PM (#19406735)
    Like any geek 30+, I had an AppleII too (in fact, the computer's name was TK2000, a brazilian clone). And I must say that the world of computers were sooo funnier then... Obviously I'm takking from a romantic point of view, where typing 500 lines of BASIC code to save it in a K7 tape (after 3 hours debugging your mistypings) is real fun! I remember a book called "the black book of TK2000" that contained several hard-to-find informations that allowed me to really explore my machine, and the assembly programs that made it read even bugged tapes without errors. :-) And, last but not least, Karateka! :-)))

    After that, I had a MSX (I don't know if this japanese computer was famous in other countries, but here in brazil it was) with a single-sided drive, and some years later my first 386SX. :-) IRQs, DMAs, conflicts, fun, fun, fun! :-) But since then, everything went downhill (or uphill). From 64Kb to 4Gb of RAM in 10 years...

    Today, you buy a computer, connect it to your 8Mb internet connection, download a 2Gb game in half an hour and play games that are almost real... You don't need to worry about tapes, typing, basic, anything. It's obviously better... But it's sad too. There's no fun anymore...

    Yes, I know I'm getting old... But I really think that I was happy and I didn't knew...
    • "Like any geek 30+, I had an AppleII too"

      Let's not forget about those 30+ year old geeks that had Commodore 64s which were much less expensive.
      I had Apple IIs at school and learned some stuff on them but most of my early computing was done on Commodores.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Lars T. ( 470328 )

        "Like any geek 30+, I had an AppleII too"

        Let's not forget about those 30+ year old geeks that had Commodore 64s which were much less expensive.
        Let's not forget 6 years late to the party.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by chthon ( 580889 )

      MSX was an attempt from several Japanese and European companies to create a standard in personal computers.

      However, the IBM PC was already out for a couple of years, so it did not have that large a traction.

      • MSX was an attempt from several Japanese and European companies to create a standard in personal computers
        Not forgetting Microsoft who wrote the OS & Basic.

  • And in production for almost 18 of those 30 years! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SickLittleMonkey ( 135315 ) on Tuesday June 05, 2007 @11:16PM (#19406815)
    Check out this fascinating time line [apple2history.org] for an overview of when each model was being produced, along with some computer industry milestones for context. The site has in depth history on the whole story.

    Versions of the Apple II were still going strong when Linux and Windows 3.1 were released.
    Retirement finally came shortly before Windows 95, but by that time software emulation had become more convenient.

    SLM
  • It was Commodore, not Apple, who released the first true home computer.
    It was Commodore, not Apple, who "brought computing to homes" by making their machines affordable.
    Lastly, it was the success of Commodore, not Apple's, that made computing mainstream.

  • Revisionist History? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Wednesday June 06, 2007 @12:30AM (#19407317) Journal
    I've read the book "On the Edge", about Commodore. The author (usually via quotes) bashes early Apple.

    First, it claims that Apple greatly exaggerated sales figures. Apple was a distant 3rd in sales behind Commodore PET and TRS-80's until VisiCalc (first spreadsheet) arrived, which was written for Apple because the PET and TRS's were booked in the development shop. It was not chosen for technical reasons, but because it wasn't being used at the time.

    Altough Apple beat PET on floppies, the floppy was so expensive that it didn't help Apple's sales volume much. Plus, PET had more stuff in ROM such that one didn't need external programs as much. Commodore was able to produce ROM much cheaper than Apple could get because they owned a major ROM company. (PET sold better in Europe than the US, so US'ers don't remember PETs as much. Still, it sold more than Apple until 1980 or 81.)

    And, the Commodore-64 eventually beat the daylights out of Apple II as far as sales volume. It probably had far more impact on consumers than Apple. Apple exaggerates the power, influence, and abilities of the Apple II. The only thing that saved Apple as a company from the PC clones was they lucked into desktop publishing with the Mac. Had the Commodore Amiga captured that niche, Apple would perhaps be dead instead of Commodore now.

    The book did give praise for Apple's clever marketers, but not its machines.
         

    • Re:Revisionist History? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Purity Of Essence ( 1007601 ) on Wednesday June 06, 2007 @04:52AM (#19408515)
      I don't think anyone would argue that the Apple II was technically inferior to the machines that came later from other companies. The Commodore 64 was released five years after the Apple II, that's ages in computer years and features several custom chips for its special features. Apple stuck to the same off-the shelf mentality for a long time, because that's what their customers wanted. The Apple /// was a complete flop, so was the Lisa. People liked their Apple IIs. The Apple IIGS was late to the party, if they had moved in that direction sooner, maybe it would have made a difference, but technical superiority isn't everything in mass marketing. Ask Sony.

      While the Mac was buoyed by the desktop publishing revolution, the Amiga did manage to capture a niche: video and graphics. Amiga computers are still used today by many video professionals. There is a Video Toaster sitting eight feet from me (and its PC successor, the VT[4], in the box I'm using right now). Unfortunately for Commodore, the potent Amiga / Toaster combo were way too far ahead of their time; home video was nowhere near reaching the mass market revolution that is going on right now. In those days, printing out really, really nice documents was something people could get their heads around, especially in the ugly reality of dot matrix printers and fanfold paper. These days, thanks mostly to good timing and savvy purchases, Apple all but owns the video and graphics niche as well.

      Commodore failed simply because of horrible management, just like Atari. Hell, the Amiga never even should have been a Commodore product, it was designed by Jay Miner, the Atari engineer behind the Atari VCS and the Atari 400/800. Atari was offered the Amiga and payed for some of its development, and for some reason decided not to see it to completion. No doubt the same kind of idiocy that lead Atari to pass on the rights to the Nintendo Entertainment System. When Commodore slipped in and sneakily purchased the Amiga out from under them, a livid Jack Tramiel, president of Atari, (who founded Commodore and introduced the PET/VIC/C64 series and eventually got all pissy and left Commodore to purchase a money hemorrhaging Atari) sued Commodore and scrambled to slap together the Atari ST as a competitor, practically out of spite. Engineered in something like 6 months, while the Amiga languished in legal limbo, the Atari ST (dubbed by some, "the Jackinstosh") actually wasn't too bad (if quirky) and featured a single-tasking OS from Digital Research, the guys who passed on the IBM PC operating system allowing Microsoft to step in to save the day. While slightly faster than, and sharing the same CPU as the Amiga and the Mac, the Atari ST was nothing compared to the much more complex and amazing multi-tasking Amiga. The ST would eventually sport an inexpensive laser printer (two years after Apple) and the ability to run Mac and PC software better than the real thing. Atari tried to compete in desktop publishing, and some big name publishing software got their start on Atari, but Atari couldn't shed its gaming stigma and refused to spend the marketing dollars to correct that. Commodore didn't fare much better in the image department and didn't even bother to make a laser printer or try to compete with Mac at all it seems, although the Amiga outsold the Atari by a substantial margin. Maybe that's all they cared about. They later tried to get into the game console business with a dumbed down Amiga with a CD-ROM, but it was too late for Commodore and the faded away in all but the video realm. Atari eventually did find their niche in music thanks to built in MIDI and sequencer software like Cubase, and it is still used by a few musicians, although nothing like it was in its heyday.

      Apple made it out almost by default because Atari and Commodore were so inept ... and because they developed an affordable laser printer before anyone else. Not unlike how Apple were the first to develop a fast and affordable floppy system -- engineered by who? W

      • Atari was offered the Amiga and payed for some of its development, and for some reason decided not to see it to completion
        My understanding is that midway through development, CBM bought Amiga and Atari had their money returned to them.
        Good potted history though :-)

  • I always thought the Apple lovers were wankers (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SocietyoftheFist ( 316444 ) * on Wednesday June 06, 2007 @01:12AM (#19407539)
    I brought my C-64 to school in 1988 and made all the Apple Machines look stupid. Now when I went to College I fell in love with the Mac but always though the Apple II line got too much attention.
  • My parents got me an Apple //c with a green monochrome monitor (not that tiny one -- the box one used for IIe] after TI-99/4A [wikipedia.org] (didn't die). I played a lot of games on it, but I also learned BASIC and LOGO. At school, I had an awesome sixth grade teacher (Mr. Mangel? I wonder if he reads /.]) who was a geek and perfect mentor for me since I was into computers. I remember I got introduced to LOGO and he had one of those Apple robot turtle like a plotter on the floor/ground. It was neat!
  • Happy 30th Birthday to all of them, because all of them were introduced the same year. I think the only reason to single out the Apple II is that Apple is still around, since the TRS-80 and Commodore Pet were technically at least as good as the Apple II.

  • Re-release it! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by m0nkyman ( 7101 ) on Wednesday June 06, 2007 @01:52AM (#19407723) Homepage Journal
    Seriously. Re-release it as a kit for kids to learn computers on. I remember getting a 'computer kit' from Radio shack as a kid that was basically a bunch of resistors and transistors and wires. (the 150 in 1 from here - http://musepat.club.fr/sfair.htm [musepat.club.fr] ) An Apple II would be a nice modern equivalent....

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by SickLittleMonkey ( 135315 )
      The big problem there would be that Microsoft holds copyright on most of Applesoft Basic, which became the heart of the command line.

      Apple negotiated two 10 year licenses, and their reluctance to sign a third might have been a factor in ending the Apple II line.
      (This isn't a problem for the Apple I, which is why kits are available with the approval of Apple and Woz.)

      Apple II emulators are readily available though (the whole machine fits in one FPGA) and so are cheap used Apple II's.
      I'd recommend a //c as it
  • I never had an Apple II or access to one but was told that the manual had a bit about the tapes and noted that if you could understand the noises they held when played on a normal HiFi deck 'you were a mutant and would go far in life'. True?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by russotto ( 537200 )
      Yes, the bit about being a mutant appeared in the Apple II Reference Manual. Other early Apple manuals had such gems (?) as "on a clear disk you can seek forever" and "EXCESS INEPT VERBIAGE DISQUALIFIES NAMES".

      I'm not sure if the mutant bit appeared in the earlier manuals.
  • Is that between 1975 and 1979 (just 4 short years) we went from the Altair kit and its switches and LEDs to the Atari 800 with multimode graphics, sprites, extensible OS and 4 channel sound. In the middle was the Apple II, affordable mass storage on floppies etc.
    Interesting info here including several machines I'd never heard of:
    http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml [blinkenlights.com]

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