An iPod For Every Kid In Michigan 333
mikesd81 writes "Over at C|Net there is an article about Michigan spending $38 million to distribute an iPod to every kid, for learning purposes. From the article: 'On Thursday, House Democrats delivered a spending bill that includes the idea of putting $38 million worth of public funds toward outfitting every student with a digital music player.' The plan included measures to tax soda and satellite TV services to pay for it, among other things, to raise funds. If you recall, Duke University tried something like this with mixed results. How financially strained will Michigan residents feel about paying higher taxes to buy someone else's kid an iPod?"
really? (Score:4, Insightful)
Umm.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Who will monitor the usage? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a horrible idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, how about spending the millions of dollars on teachers? I just can't see any real requirement for a DAP for educational purposes. Want the students to be able to listen to lectures as home? Put MP3's on the school website and let students listen to them at the computer or put them on their own DAP. Need students to be able to listen to audio on their own while in class? 30 million dollars buys a lot of blank CD-R's, and CD players are a hell of a lot less expensive than iPods.
30 million dollars also buys a hell of a lot of teacher bonuses. IMNSHO, Investing in teachers will have more of a benefit than whatever hair brained scheme they have cooked up for the iPods.
Re:This is a horrible idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to agree with the idea of investing money in teachers instead of the students though. Plans to give students free iPods and PSPs just seem to be extremely short sighted, as when given the choice between working and playing games/music I'm fairly sure I know which one most teenagers would choose. Giving the teachers laptops, maybe giving them Broadband for free at home, etc. would likely have a more beneficial effect on learning.
... higher taxes to buy someone else's kid ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of being a community is pooling resources in to help others. Even if you don't have any children of your own, for example, someone paid for your schooling, and when you're an adult you pay it back.
Of course, then there are the endless arguments about exactly how this money should be spent...
Re:Some points (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Some points (Score:5, Insightful)
I work in higher education IT, and I have a fair idea about what does and does not work in the classroom. This is yet another example of people believing that throwing technology at students will make them learn better. We have done this on a grand national scale to the tune of billion of dollars in various programs, and so far it has not had a measurable impact. Where I work we just had one of the major DOE education program spends thousands of dollars on an enormous wide-format printer for underprivileged students. So that they can print posters. Posters. In college. This is their idea of a sound technological investment in education. Not to mention that we already had one just like it.
The fact of the matter is that no one "gets it" when it comes to technology in the classroom. An until they do, crap like this will keep creeping into legislation. The only silver lining about this is that there is no way in hell the governor will sign this measure into law.
wtf mang (Score:2, Insightful)
Incomplete support (Score:4, Insightful)
I am a high school info tech teacher in Michigan. Some of my classes are currently working to produce podcasts to help improve their understanding of available resources to support their current and future learning and to increase the range of media that they can communicate through. I have only just heard of the iPod initiative. The research I share with my students shows that good podcasts take planning and use intelligent editing. Class lectures done in podcasts will be of no more value than current hard copy if the students don't listen to or view them.
iPods for learning have potential, but despite the good intentions, it currently is just another top down, half-baked solution to a serious problem. Past experience leads me to be very cynical of tech initiatives for education, not because they can't work, but because they are incompletely supported.
Cool, a second iPod, courtesy of the taxpayers! (Score:4, Insightful)
As of the end of 2006, there were 42 million iPods sold (http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-6416165.htm
It strikes me that a large percentage of the Michigan school kids probably already have iPods.
Re:'ey mang! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Umm.. (Score:5, Insightful)
WRT to teachers, of course that's the best and surest way to improve education. Lower class size. If class size wasn't important than the elite in this country wouldn't be sending their kids to prep schools where classes are four or five students sitting around a table with a teacher.
While increasing the number of qualified teaches is almost a surefire way of improving education, it's also the most expensive. Since it's the most expensive thing you deal with, often money is well spent just to improve the effectiveness of our use of teacher time. This means hiring aides to handle non-teaching chores, specialists in math and reading and so forth.
My attitude toward something like this is like my attitude towards an Iraq troop surge: the idea itself is neither nor good nor bad, it depends on whether you have a credible plan to use them. I'm not saying that the iPod idea is a good one, but it is not necessarily bad. Just because iPods are a lot of fun doesn't mean they can't be used as serious educational tools. If money is tight, then creative ideas for marginal improvements are actually more worth looking at. If we were swimming in dough, the answer to the best use of our dough would be simple: reduce class sizes.
I have a feeling that the idea will go down in flames, because the public instinct is exactly the opposite. When we're flush, we might consider something like this. When money is tight, we obsess about things we can't afford.
Re:really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Take notes.
Read their textbooks.
Email the teacher (my kids do this one a lot)
Actually pay attention.
I see this as giving the kids a device they won't use for the purpose intended (for the most part anyway), and as just another silly idea from the Ivory Tower folks. This won't save one ream of paper IMHO. Schools burn through paper like you wouldn't believe.
Re:Umm.. (Score:1, Insightful)
Excuse me, Michigan (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm sorry, what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Er.. no. How many billions more dollars must be wasted on the 'education system' before people realize throwing money at it does no good - including pay for teachers. Note that in 2005 the median household income was $46,300. [we'll assume teacher salaries are not so widely dispersed that the mean is a fair estimate of the median] Teachers get a tremendous benefits package and do not work a full year. The students educated before electronic blackboards, computers in every class, class size under 20, (insert stupid education metric here) managed to graducate high school and go on to such things as developing quantum mechanics, various field theories, nuclear weapons, man on moon, space probes,.... And until you actually pay for the little rugrats education by owning a property you will never fully understand just how much it costs. My latest assessment results in local school taxes in excess of the full year tuition at the state college. And before you claim the college is subsidized, so is the local school system. The system is horribly broke and it is time turn back the clock and revert to what once worked very well (note to parents: this might also include getting the balls to disciplining your child).
Re:Umm.. (Score:1, Insightful)
I wonder if there would be the same type... (Score:3, Insightful)
Probably not... although, I imagine that 30 years ago, there was probably some resistance to buying kids Apple II's in their schools, with the same old curmudgeon responses, "But the roads stink. We don't need more stuff in schools... bah!!!"
Yes, Michigan roads stink... I always know I've hit the Michigan border when I hear the "kerchunk, kerchunk" every few seconds... you can set a timer to it. Perhaps it's the fact that you guys drive like 90 MPH.
Michigan is in the same dire straights that Ohio is now, but it's not because of Jennifer Granholm or anything the state government did or did not do. The U.S. automobile industry is in the tanker, and the economy of Michigan feeds off of the Big 3. No amount of state intervention (or non-intervention) would have helped the situation. If you can blame anyone, blame our federal government, who has shown little interest in protecting American industries. Michigan is just feeling it's disastrous effects. Of course, political opponents are using this to their advantage. But, does anyone really believe that DeVos would have been able to improve anything?
This single line item in the budget that has everybody so in an uproar won't pass. It can't pass, since the state can't run a deficit like the feds... It sure struck a nerve, but unfairly so, I believe.
Thanks,
Mike
Re:really? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing the kids are going to learn is that the government really does waste their parents' tax money on cool stuff.
Why You're Wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
You're wrong. Michigan is experiencing a single state recession and the Governor's solution is to raise taxes on an already overburdened population. Michigan should be cutting spending and lowering taxes in a bid to retain those of us who are contributing to the tax base instead of reaching into our wallets and trying to take more. Michigan has to compete with 49 other states in addition to countries the world over. When will the Governor realize this and take steps to make Michigan a more attractive place to do business instead of raising taxes and making an already bad economic situation worse? Nobody has an obligation to stay in Michigan, especially when it's being mismanaged in such a horrendous fashion.
The Michigan Congressional Delegation is also to blame. For every dollar Michigan residents send to the federal government the State of Michigan receives about $0.85 cents back in return. It's a crime that Michigan is a donor state given our current economic situation. Especially when there is every indication that it's going to get worse before it gets better. Our Congressmen and Senators should be on the floor of their respective Houses of Congress every day that Congress is in session making an issue of this situation! Why would anybody expect residents with the means to stay in this state when their elected representatives continue to show such a failure of leadership?
Re:really? (Score:2, Insightful)
You couldn't outfit every classroom with this for that money yet though.
But that's really a strawman anyway. It's not an either-or situation: distribute iPods or not have anything the kids can take home. One of my H.S. teachers tape recorded his lectures on cassette tape. You could record the lectures and put them online to download and let kids listen to it on their computers at home, or on their own iPods. If someone is really financially disadvantaged enough that this isn't an option, the school could have some players that you could check out from the library.
There are plenty of ways to achieve about the same effect without being fiscally stupid.
Re:You have got to be kidding.. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'm sorry, what? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's three big problems with the American educational system at the moment.
* Money going to the wrong places - computers bought with no plans in mind, new buildings without staff for them, extraordinary administrator salaries for administrators who don't do anything.
* Incompetent teachers, paid badly enough to keep all the possibly-skilled teachers far, far away.
* America's teacher's union, which essentially requires teachers to be kept or fired based solely on seniority, not competence.
The latter keeps the former two going. If you want to fix the educational system, the first thing you do is get rid of the damn union, the second thing you do is fire crappy teachers, and the third thing you do is raise teacher salaries enough to hire good teachers.
Supply and demand. There's just not enough demand to create a good supply.
Re:This is a horrible idea. (Score:3, Insightful)
I like how people, when talking about how much teachers work, love to mention the fact they're only working 9 months a year. And then add in 'and holidays'. Um, no, not 'and holidays'. Teachers have to work 190 days or so, which barely fits in 9 months without holidays. School years are actually 10 months, with a month of holidays spaced in there.
So your calculations about summer school are entirely off. If the 10 month year paid 54 thousand, then summer school would be maybe another 11 thousand, so we're talking about 65 thousand there. And this completely ignores the fact that teachers can't just 'decide' to teach summer school. Maybe one out of ten teachers is wanted for summer school. And, no, they can't run out and get a job elsewhere, because that's exactly the wrong time of year to be looking for jobs. They're competing with high school students.
And they completely ignores the fact they do without a lunch hour. It's more a lunch 20 minutes, and lower grade teachers eat with their class, so it's not a break at all.
'Traditional' 9-5 day is 8 hours minus an hour for lunch is 7 hours times 20 days a month times 12 months, for 1680 hours a year.
Teacher 7:30-3:30 day is 8 hours times 190 days. That's 1520 hour, or a single month extra. Of course, a lot of teachers come in around 7 instead, or leave about 4. My mother did both, for ten years, and barely had time to do all the work required of her. I saw plenty of other teachers that did that too. Even if they don't show up for themselves extra, teachers end up hanging around before and after school for quite a lot of school-required functions, from monitoring students before classes to parent/teacher conferences to PTA meetings to after-school clubs.
Of course, people in other contract jobs work extra too, but usually not consistently. Maybe once a year they end up working a 12-hour a day week.
Oh, and teachers don't get any sick days or personal leave days. Well, they do, but they have to pay their replacement, which no one in any other job has to do. Just like no other eight hour job doesn't have a lunch break.
Teachers work weird times, compared to other jobs, but pretending they work less actual amounts of time is just ignorance. They may work 190 days a years instead of the 240 days that other contract workers do, but that doesn't have any bearing on the actual hours spent, which often is about the same amount other contract workers work.
And the reason you hear about underpaid teachers is that, in many parts of the country, they still are. Michigan, however, is not one of those places.
Re:You have got to be kidding.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You have got to be kidding.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Implementing local sales taxes might create problems since the system is not set up to deal with that. However, what they can do is, if not already, create additional state sales tax rates.
Certain businesses would have a higher sales tax rate depending on the type of business.
Re:You have got to be kidding.. (Score:1, Insightful)
You said: Sorry, buddy, but I don't have kids and I happily pay my property taxes. Even if I never plan on burdening the public school system, the products of these schools will be my caretakers when I'm elderly and my coworkers in my near future. It's to everyone's interest to ensure the success of all children in the United States. If you think otherwise, I kindly ask you to leave my country. Your self-centered outlook is killing America.
Perhaps you'd care to explain how a child in a private school is not part of "all children." I won't even ask you to explain how an iPod giveaway (of rather dubious utility) to just certain kids is fair.
Re:$920 million deficit means more spending, right (Score:2, Insightful)
I like Michigan, I have lived here my whole life. Most of my family lives here too. However, if I can't get a good paying job after graduating college, I am going to leave Michigan because I have to make a living.
Re:I wonder if there would be the same type... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ahh michigan, where you can go by a state trooper doing 80, because he's looking for the guys doing 110...
Road conditions in Michigan suck for four reasons:
1. Climate. The temp swings 120 degrees every year, and usually can swing 60 degrees in a week. Yeah, I know this happens in other states, but Michigan usually gets hit harder.
2. Budget vs. Infrastructure. Michigan has a MASSIVE amount of highway space. More than it needs now. But they still have to pay to maintain it.
3. Salt. Michigan salts roads and gets the plow trucks out at the first hint of snow. Here in Sunny South Bend, Plow trucks come out oh, you know, when they get around to it. I've seen double the snow during the winter here in SoBend than I saw in SE Mich, and I've seen half the plows. Don't know if that means we underplow, or they overplow, either way, those trucks are out in force come winter in Mich.
4. Weight limits. Michigan has the 2nd highest weight limit for Semi's in the union. We allow trucks of 164,000 pounds on the roads. For reference, a GE Genesis locomotive (think amtrak) is 254,000 pounds. The official line is that we require more axles to distribute the load. Which in and of itself is a load. You're still driving tanks over abused roads.
Individually, none of these problems are huge. Every other state deals with the same issues. But the cumulative effect makes things pretty rough. The funny thing about it is, driving into and out of Detroit is actually pretty nice now that they've redone I-94. That was a true shithole of a highway until the superbowl motivated them into doing some real work.
Love the lack of fuss over no bid contracts (Score:3, Insightful)
Well if ya are committed to pissing away $30 mil when you already have a deficit I guess what you say makes sense.
And I want to know how Apple manages to get their product specced in legilation, avoiding bidding them out. Of course Apple, being by far the most expensive vendor, would never win the contract and some no name digital player wouldn't have the buzz for the bill's backers. This stinks of corruption, we need an investigation. At least an investigation would cost less and scuttle the project at least until it finished.
[sarcasm]
You Apple fans should be opposed as well. If every kid is walking around with YOUR beloved fashion accessory just how the hell does your self esteem get boosted by being better than everyone else?
[/sarcasm]
Re:really? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mmmm...I'm guessing you never went to school so you don't know how it works.
Re:really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, but I think that shock and sentiment is working the wrong way. Given the general state of the State, as well as the schools, and the relative uselessness (especially given costs) of iPods in education, this just comes off as mind-blowingly idiotic more than anything forward-thinking, especially when the gov't has been putting forth cuts and finagling tax hikes claiming poverty.
I could even see buying eBooks or something like that-- at least those have more educational use than a trumped-up portable drive.
"Look what Michigan has done... dumped a whole bunch of money from a struggling economy into ooh-shiny electronics." Now I (a Michigan resident) get to be thought of either as part of the people who thought "iPods" and "education" were a natural combo, or the people who apparently can be cowed and placated by throwing shiny things at them.
Re:really? (Score:3, Insightful)