Microsoft Slugs Mac Users With Vista Tax 661
An anonymous reader writes "Mac users wanting to run Vista on their Macintosh, alongside Mac OS X programs, will have to buy an expensive version of Vista if they want to legally install it on their systems. The end-user license agreement for the cheaper versions of Vista (Home Basic and Home Premium) explicitly forbids the use of those versions on virtual machines (i.e., Macs pretending to be PCs)." Update: 02/08 17:50 GMT by KD : A number of readers have pointed out that the Vista EULA does not forbid installing it via Apple's Bootcamp; that is, the "tax" only applies to running Vista under virtualization.
This is going too far ;) (Score:2, Interesting)
We should now all go out and buy a Mac.
Seriously, they do mac some pretty cool hardware, buy one. you won't regret it.
Re:Coherence changed my life (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not all "cheap" versions (Score:3, Interesting)
The point is not that the "cheaper" versions of Vista won't work in a virtual machine, it is that it is contrary to the license terms.
If you are going to violate a license agreement, it is cheaper to violate something cheaper than MSDN.
Re:Apples moves into VM (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe, but in a very sluggish and almost useless way.
Call me when I can run OSX on a VM under OSX. Oh and in such a way as its supported both by Apple and the vendor of the VM system.
Tell me that I'm wrong and that Apple supports running OSX in a VM, go on I'd like that. A lot.
Re:Hi, I'm somewhat new to Slashdot... (Score:4, Interesting)
This is not discriminating against macs (Score:3, Interesting)
Or am I reading it wrong and Vista Home prevents running it in a VM even when you aren't using that same licensed copy of Vista Home elsewhere (e.g, if its running inside a VMWare image hosted on a linux machine)?
Re:Apples moves into VM (Score:4, Interesting)
-----
On Oct 23, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Paul Thurrott wrote:
Microsoft told me that the retail EULA forbids the installation of Windows Vista Home Basic or Home Premium in virtual machines. They said that if developers wanted to do this, they should get an MSDN subscription, which has a different license allowing such an install. All that said, there's nothing technical from preventing users from installing any Vista version in a virtual machine.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Schroeder [mailto:das@doit.wisc.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 9:15 AM
To: thurrott@windowsitpro.com
Subject: Row over Vista virtualization much ado about nothing?
Paul,
In reading about Vista virtualization, it occurred to me that all
this may be a result of the incorrect interpretation of the EULA:
Microsoft's Vista EULA says:
"4. USE WITH VIRTUALIZATION TECHNOLOGIES. You may not use the
software installed[1] on the licensed device[2] within a virtual (or
otherwise emulated) hardware system."
This means you can't use the *same* installation of Vista Home inside
a virtualization technology on the "licensed device".
This DOES NOT mean you can't use it by itself in a virtualization
product on any platform. If that instance of Vista is not installed
anywhere else, there is no preexisting "licensed device".
The reason this is included in the EULA is because Vista Business and
Ultimate actually include additional licenses specifically so the
same license can be used to also run in a virtualization environment
on the same device where Vista is already installed.
The higher end versions of Vista actually include more in terms of
virtualization licensing than any other commercial OS.
In any case, by my reading, this means all versions of Vista can
still be legally used standalone in a virtualized environment, such
as Parallels or VMWare.
[1] This means "the software" (i.e., Vista Home Basic or Premium) is
already installed on a licensed device.
[2] The "licensed device" is the device that Vista Home is already
installed on, and that license may not be reused to also install it
in a virtualization environment, which you CAN do with Vista Business
and Ultimate, because Microsoft includes additional licenses
specifically for virtualization use, which is why there are all these
specifics about virtualization use on the lower end Vista versions in
the EULA in the first place.
Thoughts?
Re:Apples moves into VM (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, you really are allowed to do damn near anything you want to with it. You bought it, it's your property. You can't make copies for other people due to copyright law, but if you want to install it in a virtual machine running on your toaster then knock yourself out.
There is not one god damned thing in the world that allows them to dictate how you choose to use your property.
Pretending that they have rights that they do not and treating this nonsense in their meaningless EULA as if it were even sane is just fucking retarded.
Run it anywhere you damn well please. It is your right if you paid for it.
Re:Summary incorrect. (Score:3, Interesting)
Consider the home license: "You may not use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual
The Business/Ultimate license is what made me begin questioning the normal Slashdot interpretation: "You may use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual
IANAL, but my interpretation is that the intent of this clause is to allow the business versions of the client to run in a sandbox mode with multiple instances of the OS covered by a single instance of the license. I suspect that the next server OS utilizes virtual machines as a security feature and the Vista license includes this clause so developers can test a single user version on their workstations. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but if so, why the destinction between "licensed device" and "virtual hardware system" instead of indicating that the (un)licensed device is the virtual hardware system?
Re:Why not? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Apples moves into VM (Score:5, Interesting)
I have yet to hear of a single court case lending any validity to that viewpoint.
Were I to buy one of their products, I'd head down to the computer store, pay Microcenter for a product in a box and I would own it. Whatever nonsense they want to write inside the box is meaningless.
There is nothing that gives them any right to say shit about what I do with it (within copyright law). They weren't even part of the transaction.
Re:Summary incorrect. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not just cars, *anything* can be sold by charging more for extra 'features'. That applies to salt and breakfast cereal to 747s. It's called product differentiation and it's pretty much Economics 101. How does Microsoft become 'monopolistic' by charging more for certain editions -- they're merely trying to maximize their revenue -- when every other company does the same? It's not like they're hiding the cheaper editions. Hell, given that most home users will buy Vista from their OEMs, they'll probably use Vista Home Premium quite contentedly anyway.
Re:Apples moves into VM (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And Apple makes it easy to run OS X? (Score:2, Interesting)
Now, what would be required to change this? VMWare accomplishes virtualization by binary rewriting: they examine the stream of instructions that are about to execute, and change it so that they will operate appropriately. Instructions that change the priviledged state of the machine (such as LIDT) are essentially translated into system calls, because the guest OS is now running in user space instead of kernel space. However, they only do this binary translation for the kernel. They don't do it for any user applications that run. The reason is that it's somewhat slow; it's why running a system in VMWare is slower than running it on the bare metal. Imagine if they also had to do binary translation on user space processes. But that's exactly what they would have to do if they wanted to protect against a user application issuing a SIDT instruction to read the privileged state.
So it's not so much that it's detectable on purpose as it is they decided (pretty much completely rightly) that the performance hit that would be required to protect aginst this would be far, far, FAR worse than allowing detectability.
It's for this reason that I don't think there is ANY x86 virtualization program that both works on pre-VT/Pacifica hardware (that avoids this issue) and is undetectable. (I bet that even Xen with a paravirtualized Linux could be detected via this method.) The closest you get is Bochs, but that's complete emulation, not virtualization. (Because that's almost what you need if you want to completely virtualize x86 before direct HW support.) In other words, by your definition, there AREN'T any good virtualization software products for year-old x86 chips.
(Also, another interesting point; VMWare has a paper out that demonstrates that their binary rewriting is actually about an order of magnitude faster than hardware virtualization on some tasks for the first P4s that supported it.)