Apple Surpasses Dell's Market Value 457
bonch writes "Nine years after Michael Dell said he'd shut down Apple and give the money to the shareholders, Apple has passed Dell in market value, at $72,132,428,843 compared to Dell's $71,970,702,760. Analysts expect Apple to continue to outperform competitors, citing 2006 as 'poised to be the year of both iPod growth and, more importantly, Mac market share gains,' with earnings growing more than 35%. I should have bought stock two years ago!" We talked about the approach of this moment back in November of last year.
New Ad (Score:5, Funny)
Market Cap: No. Equity Market Cap: Yes (Score:2, Interesting)
Dell has $600 million in debt, while Apple has none.
The total market cap is equity plus debt. Think of it this way - if you spend the 72 or so Billion on Dell, you still need to pay off an additional $600 million before you truly own the company. One alternative is to issue another $600 million in stock, and use the proceeds to buy back the debt.
Michael Dell said he'd shut down Apple... (Score:5, Funny)
Market cap or Equity Market cap, does it matter? I bet Michael Dell really hates it every time somebody brings that quote up in conversation and every body starts laughing. It must be the first thing every new employee at Dell HQ learns:"OK, iPods, PowerBooks and anything else with an Apple logo is off limits and whatever you do, don't crack that Apple shutdown joke when Mr. Dell is within earshot, the last time that happened he punched the guy who told it and cancelled our christmass bonuses!"
Re:Market Cap: No. Equity Market Cap: Yes (Score:5, Informative)
The calculation you describe is grasping at a concept called "Enterprise value" which is total capitalization minus cash. Think about it. If you are going to add on the debt that company has to the total amount someone would need to pay to buy the company, because they would be assuming the debt, you should also subtract the amount of cash on hand. Finance 101, dude.
Re:Market Cap: No. Equity Market Cap: Yes (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Market Cap: No. Equity Market Cap: Yes (Score:2, Insightful)
The difference between their market values is only about $150 million, so no, it is not just a rounding error. Had the difference been like at least a few billion, then yes.
Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:2, Interesting)
The huge looming threat to Apple is Sony. Its management has refocused Sony on innovation and (if I recall correctly) hired a non-Japanese outsider to be Sony's CEO.
iPod is a cool gadget, its innards are mostly built outside of Apple. Sony is an R&D and manufacturing juggernaut and could outengineer Apple to build a better iPod.
Re:Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:5, Insightful)
So why haven't they done it yet? I mean, it's not for lack of trying. They've released 'ipod killer' after 'ipod killer' and Apple has gone from strength to strength. The reason that nothing has 'killed' the iPod is because it is a cool gadget. People want an iPod, not an MP3 player, and thats the main reason why Sony and Creative probably won't be able to 'kill' it for a long time.
Re:Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:5, Interesting)
The cat is already out of the bag, and yeah, sony was well aware of mp3 players, and had the hardware and engineering guys who could have designed an efficient one. they were banking on the mp3 format to 'just go away' so their record label could make more money selling CDs. or something like that.
Besides sony was focusing it's effort at dominating the video game sector, they've done an awesome job at it, and they've managed to 'launch' the psp (against nintendo's iron grip on the handheld market) in every major country except the UK. And all this for a system that won't have a respectable* game title for another year, and has no back catalog of compatable games.
I know people who are very happy with their PSPs but most of them have hacked the firmware and are playing ROMs on emulators... frankly I'd rather buy a flash linker and play them on a cheap GBA SP, since DS linkers are still immature, and GBA linkers work with more systems than DS ones. http://www.gameboy-advance.net/nintendo_ds/neo-fl
for $300(or less) i can get a very nice car/portable dvd player with detachable screen(s). and i don't need to buy movies that only play on a psp, plus i can play dvd+-r's i've burned, or movies i've rented from netflix. so the movie playback capabilites don't impress me.
the NDS however has several games i love, and several i wouldn't mind owning.. plus works with my old gba titles, which i have about 20 of or so. I am still worried about nintendo's long term strategy, but they've beaten everyone else out of the portable market, so if they keep on making awesome systems with awesome games, then sony will remain the 'other' portable gaming device.
*= IMNSHO psps launch titles suck, a look at gamefaqs doesn't show much promise til you look at games with no us release dates, or release dates a year or more from now.
Re:Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinit
But personally they don't do much for me...
Friedmud
Re:Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:3, Interesting)
I'll get bsck to you on that when i make more than mid-4 digit a year income. there is a little something called 'poverty' you may have heard of it, and yes it exists in the united states. something like food, and transportation consume about 90% of my income, when i have cash to spend on things it's generally the hardware i buy, not the expensive software. prior to reliable emulation i would rent video games... which meant i had limited access to title
Re:Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:4, Interesting)
Wake me up when
1. the PS3 comes out
2. they make a non-fragile laptop; their stuff is cool-looking but much easier to break than an iBook
3. people forget about the r00tk1t -- that made it into non-techy national news
4. they come out with *any* non-absurd music player
I was a huge Sony fan for many years. But they've really lost direction in EVERYTHING but game consoles; I'll believe they get it back when I see it.
Even so, I think Apple's stock may be overvalued. It's valued for explosive growth; I think steady growth is more likely.
Re:Time to Short Apple's Stock (Score:2, Interesting)
And, observing their (underpunished) missteps, you'd describe Sony as the "huge looming threat to Apple"? Don't you mean "lumbering"? I mean, Sony's in no danger of being described as beleagured but they haven't shown evidence of any of that
Times Change (Score:4, Insightful)
What this has shown is that Apple was viable back then, and that Michael Dell doesn't have the necessary vision to run a company such as Apple.
He has enough vision to run a business selling PCs. Enough capability to scale it up to its current dominant position. He may indeed be a better business person than Jobs - I don't know - but Jobs clearly has something he doesn't (apart from the emotional attachment to Apple).
I'm sure he wouldn't say that today. Indeed I doubt he would have said it in 2000. But in 1997 it was certainly an option. An option that would have removed a competitor.
Re:Times Change (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Times Change (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides if Dell had brought an iPod to market first they'd have called it the MJS P440 or the Musicon 5500.
Re:Times Change (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Times Change (Score:4, Insightful)
Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple 54.87
Dell 23.71
The run up in the price at Apple while, commendable is predicated on the hype around iPod and the assumption that will translate into sales of desktop machines.
Tons of reasons to have concern.
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Looking at the fundamentals like you say is the important thing. Dell is a much bigger company and has almost 50% of the world market. That's more profit in one quarter than apple's entire value.
The share market is a funny thing.
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:2)
At MacExpo Steve Jobs repeatedly pointed out that Apple shares are now 4 times faster and much more interesting compared to other shares.
"Yes our shares are operating in the same market as other shares, but there's just so much more you can do with our shares compared to regular boring shares, it's amazing. Repeat after me: amazing Apple shares, simply amazing Apple shares."
[/sarcasm]
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Try to buy Coca-Cola. The buildings are not worth whatever they would ask for the company. Its just those two words in their name.
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:2, Insightful)
The pricing of the stock takes into account future growth prospects. Dell might own about half the PC market, that means that they can't grow significantly in terms of units shipped. Maybe they can raise the price? No, they can't because the only reason people buy Dells is because they're cheap. So dell has no significant growth prospects.
Apple on the other hand can grow in terms of units shipped plus they can sell their products at a premium. Some of the most fantastic ideas in the industr
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:4, Informative)
apple - PEG Ratio (5 yr expected): 2.47
dell - PEG Ratio (5 yr expected): 1.12
Some corrections (Score:5, Informative)
Then, you have the $5.7 bn revenue last quarter (not 5), including $1 bn in Apple Retail revenue, and the fact that revenues, profits, and unit sales are consistently increasing quarter over quarter, year over year:
Total revenues [and profits] for fiscal year, in millions:
2001 - 5,363 [(25)]
2002 - 5,742 [65]
2003 - 6,207 [69]
2004 - 8,279 [276]
2005 - 13,931 [2335]
Not to mention record (and increasing) sales of all of Apple's products, from iPod, to iTunes Music Store, to the Mac platform, including servers and enterprise.
You're also really wrong about Dell having "more profit in one quarter than apple's entire value":
Total revenues [and profits] for fiscal year, in millions:
2003 - 35,404 [2844]
2004 - 41,444 [3544]
2005 - 49,205 [4254]
Yes, Dell is a bigger company (surprise?) and has higher revenues and sales. But over the last two years, Apple is growing at a faster rate. Much faster. Also, when you say "market share" you'd do good to include the market share of all of a company's money-making products, not just the figure you like. It's funny when people keep going around saying things like "Apple, with 1.5% of the market" seem to forget that Apple has over 80% of another huge "market". Does that market not count?
Now we've got a transition to a commodity hardware architecture and platform, with the industry abuzz with what this could mean for Apple in the enterprise for a variety of reasons.
It's funny that you state exactly what is wrong with a lot of people in the financial sector: not being able to look past next year, or even next quarter, for what something is "worth".
Source for financial data: Apple [corporate-ir.net] Dell [yahoo.com]
Re:Some corrections (Score:2)
Bad dog! valuless metric! The relative growth rate of dissimilar sized companies is laregely meaningless. The growth rate of my company makes Apple look like they're standing still. I went from one employee and a net income of $150 to four employees and over $300,000. That's 300% and 200,000% respectively! Apple can't even come close to a 200,000% revenue growth. I win!
Re:Some corrections (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyway, no, this is not a valueless metric with applied to Apple and Dell.
Dell only has 3.5 times the revenue and twice the profit of Apple as of FY2005, and further, that margin is shrinking in the most recent quarter.
Comparing companies of this size is perfectly appropriate. Now, when you're talking about a difference on the order of, say, a hundredfold (or a thousandfold), yeah, you're right. Except this isn't one of those cas
Re:Some corrections (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell employs roughly 63,000 people, where Apple employs roughly 75,000 (from Wikipedia)
Dell's profits were $4.2b, while Apple's was $2.3b; so Dell isn't quite twice as profitable.
Dell's revenue was $49b while Apple's was $14b; so Dell's raw income is a little more than three times bigger than Apple.
If trends continue, there is reason to believe that in 2006 Apple will continue growing and be just as profitable as Dell, with probably half as much income.
They are, mathem
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:3, Insightful)
1.5% of the computer market of course. And when iPod is a big moneyspinner for apple it is still not the core, of their business. Most profit they make is still coming from MAC's and software with them.
So they have 1.5% of the market for their biggest selling product. Doesnt sound so good 72 billion now does it.
But again the share market is a funny thing.
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you seem to have misinterpreted the "which market" question. To illuminate this a bit, let's try it with a different industry: imagine if an analyst published an article saying about BMW, saying "their outlook is dire; they control only a tiny fraction of the automobile market, and are taking few steps to expand their market share". You'd look at that analyst like he was crazy, because you'd realize immediately that BMW's target market is a restricted subset of automobile owners -- they market themselves to affluent customers who want something that's perceived to be a superior product and who are willing to pay a premium to get it.
Apple occupies an analogous place in the computer market; they're sort of a "luxury computer manufacturer", and their advertising is similar to that of luxury-car companies, focusing on design, amenities and uniqueness rather than on price point. So it makes little sense to talk about Apple's market share in terms of the total PC market; instead, any measure of their success or failure must be taken in the premium niche they vie for.
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:2)
Don't be rediculous. Think of all the PCs used in companies, medical facilities, homes, kiosks, point of sale installations (eg tills), etc, both desktops and servers.
I know people who own four or five PCs, and one or no media players. Media players *require* a PC, yet not every PC owner owns a media player, and many people have access to multiple PCs; even ignoring non-desktop machines, the PC market dwarfs the media player m
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:2)
Funny, I don't know anyone who owns zero media players. Most of them have a car stereo. All have a television. Almost all a DVD player and/or a VCR. Most a clock radio. Most a cell phone. Some a Playstation. I'll bet my average friend who doesn't own an iPod still averages 4-5 "media players".
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:5, Informative)
It doesn't hurt to point out that part of the excitement was about iPod sales, I think the predictions were 9 to 11 million units last quarter and Apple announced they soundly beat those predictions by selling 14 million.
Re:Price Earning Ratio is What Really Matters (Score:3, Insightful)
Attributed to? (Score:3, Insightful)
Current Snapshot (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple
Price & Volume
Recent Price $ 85.59
52 Week High $ 86.40
52 Week Low $ 33.11
Avg Daily Vol (Mil) 25.269
Beta 1.403
Dell
Price & Volume
Recent Price $ 30.58
52 Week High $ 41.99
52 Week Low $ 28.62
Avg Daily Vol (Mil) 22.084
Beta 1.08
Re:Current Snapshot (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Current Snapshot (Score:5, Interesting)
Dell under pressure specially in the serverspace because they do not use AMD processors.. and Apple because the switched to Intel..
Ofcourse the reasons go much deeper than that, including increased competition from even cheaper manufacturers from Asia for Dell and iPods for Apple and many other things.. But just wanted to reflect on the irony of Intel being a problem for one and good thing for other...
Re:Current Snapshot (Score:2)
profile (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:profile (Score:2)
Innovation v commodity (Score:5, Insightful)
Dell's aim is to have the best supply chain and produce computers cheaper than anyone else, this means they don't really do any innovation its more of a Wallmart sort of play. Now you can get very big being a Wallmart type of business but the challenge is that Dell are in a field where competition has almost always been around innovation. From a margin perspective the aim of Dell is to operate at low margin but sell in bulk, Apple are aiming at high margin and selling decent volumes. The reason people pay more for Apple's stuff is the innovation and design, the reason more people buy Dell machines than Apple's is because of the cost.
Two different models, its not comparing two similar businesses.
Mikes Statement: (Score:2)
Re:Mikes Statement: (Score:2)
But at least he doesnt run around claiming he will eat people..
And Apple makes good products. Dell doesnt. Never did.
Jobs has the charisma, but ... (Score:4, Insightful)
A lot of their success hinges on his charisma alone. Charisma is hard to value or replace.
An even better quote from Michael Dell on Apple.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Q: That bad?
A: Maybe it's a little bit different. But if you look at proprietary computer companies, whether it's Digital or Silicon Graphics (SGI ) or Apple (AAPL ), I think the fates are all relatively similar. We know how the movie ends. It's just a question of what happens in the middle. Apple has a very little customer base. If you look at the economics, it has been extremely hard for Apple to get a return on its R&D with a shrinking volume base. It's not to say that Apple's products aren't innovative or cool, but the economic factors here are so overwhelming, it's very hard for them to swim against that tide.
Q: If you were running Apple, is there anything you could do to change that?
A: I would never take that job.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_1
Re:An even better quote from Michael Dell on Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean look at KMart and Sears. Very good store with very good prices. Both added some value to through the product initially, through selection and location, but failed to continue to push that value. Walmart can in and they were toast. Dell is the same thing, but worse. Dell has the added cost of repackaging, but limited flexibility in terms of managing costs. OTOH, Apple has shown that will act aggressively to manage hardware cost, and is able to make changes to the OS to so do.
Dell is succesful becuase they are able supply large number of cheap computers to large firms. As long as they can win contracts, they will survive. However growth is out of their hands. Growth depends on MS maintaining a release schedule that encourages fast upgrade schedules, which they have not done. Growth depends on firms growing enough to add machines, which has happened. Growth depends Windows providing enough value so that large firms double license at least some machines. Growth depends on new machine running Windows, and not *nix, unless of course Dell is so cheap that even with the MS license the machine is a good value.
That is to say Dell has little control over it's future. It may decide to risk the MS gravy train and set out on it's own, but no one at Dell sounds that creative. At some point someone else will do MS Windows machines better, perhaps MS, or the desktop PC may become a thing of the past, and we will see how Dell does on low margins and low volumes. I mean, is anyone actually going to buy Dell at even a 10% markup?
Re:An even better quote from Michael Dell on Apple (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not a shock that he hates Apple. I still don't understand why we all love Apple so much, they're the same evil, repackaged.
Shutting down apple (Score:5, Informative)
We've got dozens of dell servers (hundreds of servers total) where I work, and the dell servers have a 100% failure rate. That is, each and every dell server experienced a hardware problem that required replacing something. Although usually non-critical, no other vender even comes close. They may make passable desktops and laptops, but their servers are from hell.
Re:Shutting down apple (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Shutting down apple (Score:4, Funny)
We know how the movie ends... (Score:4, Informative)
--
From: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_1
Q: What is the future of Apple Computer?
A: Silicon Graphics.
Q: That bad?
A: Maybe it's a little bit different. But if you look at proprietary computer companies, whether it's Digital or Silicon Graphics (SGI ) or Apple (AAPL ), I think the fates are all relatively similar. We know how the movie ends. It's just a question of what happens in the middle. Apple has a very little customer base. If you look at the economics, it has been extremely hard for Apple to get a return on its R&D with a shrinking volume base. It's not to say that Apple's products aren't innovative or cool, but the economic factors here are so overwhelming, it's very hard for them to swim against that tide.
Q: If you were running Apple, is there anything you could do to change that?
A: I would never take that job.
--
I would love to hear his response to those questions today...
Re:We know how the movie ends... (Score:4, Insightful)
In October of that year came the iPod, and in April of 2003 Apple opened the iTunes Music Store. Dell's failure was not that he was wrong in analyzing the fate of a company dedicated to making proprietary niche-market computers, but that he lacked the imagination to see that Apple wasn't always going to bank on proprietary niche-market computers. He says he would never take the job of Apple CEO. Honestly, would anyone have wanted Dell to head Apple? Would the iPod have come out under Dell? Would Apple have ever expanded into the media market under Dell? There's no way. He's just not that creative. So, thankfully, Michael Dell would never take the job of Apple CEO. So what?
Ego's (Score:4, Insightful)
Dell has no real style, flair, nor innovation. Michael Dell sells PC's, nothing more, nothing less. The most creative thing he has done is build an odd sense of customer loyalty where Dell owners believe that their computers are better than other Windows PC's. There is a place for that, but in the end Apple excites the consumer PC market, and Dell along with others ride the waves.
Re:Ego's (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a point in there somewhere, but it's the wrong one. Last I checked, style and flair go over like lead balloons in the boardrooms of most companies, and I doubt any manager is going to base an important purchasing decision possibly worth millions of dollars on the recommendations of a tur
So what if it's the iPod that's doing it right now (Score:4, Insightful)
The comparisons between the two companies is also pretty similar when you look at it. Both companies are concerned about the user experience. Be it customer support, system design, interface, etc they both try to make it a special experience for the user. And, they use that positive experience to build a brand loyalty that helps to sell even more systems.
Anyway, the point is even if it is the iPods that are helping to propel Apple right now, it isn't the first time this has happened to a technology company. And, the profit they make due to the iPod success can only help them to expand slowly into other markets as well as evidenced by the heightened interest in the new intel powered Apple computer platforms.
"Should have bought stock" (Score:3, Insightful)
Buy a stock when it is priced at 6-8 times earnings and seems to have a productive, profitable product line that isn't a fad.
Buy a stock when the SEC and the IRS turn back regulations and taxes regarding dividends -- so you can earn an honest profit from honest work instead of earning a "profit" from selling the overpriced stock to some other sucker.
Buy a stock when the Federal Reserve lets interest rates change based on the market, not based on fantasy. Once interest rates are allowed to fluctuate freely, savings accounts will return a very nice and very safe return on your money. This is where most savings should go.
The stock market isn't for long term savings but for risk taking and profit making -- both of these things have been destroyed over the past 25 years, and if you feel your 401K and your private accounts are "safe," they're not. Give it a little more time, and everything tied to the dollar will have a very nice price soon. Including foreign stocks on any market governed by a government that invests in US dollars as part of their reserves. You can't make wealth on inflation, friends.
Size doesn't matter (Score:4, Interesting)
Take Toyota, for instance. It is not the world's largest car company in terms of sales. But it is by far the world's most valuable car company in terms of market cap. Why? Even though GM sells more cars, Toyota has been perfecting the world's most efficient production system for the past 3 decades. Shareholders know this, and expect that for every dollar of sales today, Toyota generates more profit than any other company. And they extrapolate this into the future: for every dollar of profit made today, Toyota will make even more profit compared to other companies. That's because the benefits of continuous improvement are cummulative - you can't just decide over night to have a world-class production system. It has to be developed over time.
A similar thinking applies to Apple. Even though Apple sales are miniscule compared to Dell's, the market sees Apple products as giving greater profits per unit of sales, and sees those profits as more sustainable than any other company. Why is this so? Because Apple has a much simpler product range than Dell's (reducing the cost base), because it's average prices tend to be a bit higher (increasing margins), because it has products like the iPod that are truly unique and valuable from the consumers' perspective (increasing margins, both now and in the future), and because Apple products are addictive - after using an iPod or a iBook, it's damn hard to move back to a generic MP3 player or a commodity PC (increasing sales and profits in the future). Few other PC companies have such a magic mix, and that is what makes Apple so much more valuable compared to larger companies.
Go Apple Go! (Score:4, Insightful)
It really looks like Apple is making all the right moves. Their iPod product line has a lot going for it and their new computers sound really sweet too.
Frankly I'm wondering what took them so long to join forces with Intel, from a marketing standpoint this sounds like a slam-dunk. In a short time I think we can see a lot more software running on the Apple platform (you can read this as Apple will emulate the Windows platform or actually run Windows or whatever you want). With more software availability, they will find a home in more business environments.
For Apple, the business world isn't where it is all at. They seem to market to consumers, especially younger consumers very well. This means more Apple products in homes and dorm rooms too. In some ways, the iPod product line is a "taste" of the Apple world and since they like the taste, it isn't such a big step to move up to bigger products. This is especially true if the marketing mavens at Apple make sure their products work better with the iPods than Windows machines do -- this means that Apple will maybe offer very easy to use software for their computers to interface with the iPod as a standard feature. I would at least.
Apple is posied for some great things to happen in the next few years. Steve Jobs is the right guy and this is the right time. I think it is pretty easy to say "Apple is back and here to stay."
Re:The secret (Score:3, Insightful)
"Unix is the only way"? Eh, Microsoft is very successfull with it's own non-Unix operating system.
Re:The secret (Score:3, Insightful)
Some other arguments...
Re:The secret (Score:3, Insightful)
Simple really. Because while they don't really excel at any of those categories, they are "good enough" in most of them.
Re:The secret (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, yes. Every good operating system I know of or have used in the past 10 years is unixy. I did not do pre OS X Macs, I did do Apple squiggle squiggle in for 10 years before this time, and had no UNIX experience. The first MacOS was pretty cool, because there simply wasn't anything else remotely like it available. I didn't use it, I just played with it on other people's computers and in stores. I did occasionally use pre-OS X MacOSes, and I did not like them. Bombs from memory mismanagement, other stability issues, and whatever. I thought they were behind X windowing systems and even Windows in terms of cosmetic looks. The OS wasn't 3d-like until 8, but I crashed 8 within 10 minutes of using it, and was not impressed.
Hell, even Microsoft is starting to add UNIX features like better headless support, scripting, a real shell, remote access, periodic commands (cron), etc. They have had SFU, etc. These are standard unix features that have been around for about 30 years. I work with UNIX and Linux systems, and use Macs as my personal machines. At work, we have Windows, Macs, and UNIX and Linux, more on that later.
I'm not sure what "market value" is really an indicator of.
Actually, when first reading the headline and stuff, I was thinking what commodity OS are people going to use after Windows?
I don't see OS X being the standard any more than Ferrari or Porche or other high-end cars being standard. Even though the price (TCO for the PHBs) is about the same as other systems now, I just don't see Apple with 90% market share, and I'm not sure if they want to either.
But, IMNSHO, Windows is dead. Bear with me. At work the Windows admins, have mostly switched to Macs for their personal machines. I don't talk to them or see them that much, but I see that their emails are coming from Mail.app (Mac default mailer), and I have heard of people switching. Honestly, I can't think of one of our Windows admins that does not have a Mac now, I could be wrong. All of the UNIX admins have Macs.
I'm a geek, and a computer guy by trade. I simply don't have the need to use any Microsoft software for my personal or professional needs. The only MS software I have on my computers is IE and WMP. Both are basically EOLed, and horrible on the Mac.
Maybe people will still use Windows because it has been "good enough" and maybe that will stay the same. If Apple breaks the bond between the hardware and software integration since they now use commodity processors like Dell and others, then maybe OS X will become the standard. I just don't think Apple wants to have the issues with 3rd party hardware and the associated stability issues and support costs and possible tarnish their reputation. Maybe people will use Linux if the fundamental issues of conformity, ease of use increases with software installation, and a good GUI. However, there does not appear to be enough focus on that end. Maybe a commercial company will put these things together, and it will be the commodity OS. Don't know.
Interesting times for computers. There is still plenty of room for improvement across the board though.
Re:The secret (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The secret (Score:5, Insightful)
With portable systems they tend to be accessories with your cloths that are functional, much like watches, you could ware an ugly plastic digital watch, or a shiny metal analog watch, they both do the same thing but one looks better. The same with portable systems, if you have to go to school with a laptop and you pull out some 3rd party Laptop which may be powerful but looks like a brick. Or you pull out a clean new Powerbook err um MacBook Pro, or some other stylish laptop such as a Sony Vio, even if the specs are not as good, you still look better to your class and other people. I am sure a lot of slashdotters don't care (or say they dont) about impressions to other people, but most people do, and they are the ones buying most of the computers now. Apple tends to understand the need for style. Secondly with portable gear you need to have what you really need integrated with the laptop and placed in a spot where you would use it. Things like needing to add Ethernet Dongles, or having to switch between Ethernet and Wireless cards, Easily accessible USB ports for Flash sticks, and things like Apples new magnetic Power Cord because you may be plugged in on a high traffic area. All these add up and are important to portable users. While the OS has some to do with apples success. I find that OS X is the best platform for Laptops, It detects new wireless hotspots easily, It changes networks without much of a hiccup, It works well on Windows, and Unix networks. But that is why it is doing so strongly lately. First people get the iPods because it is cool. Then while they are at the store they see the other cool things apple has and they realized how good much of their products are.
Re:The secret (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The secret (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The secret (Score:3, Interesting)
Apple has set itself up to be the Sony of the next 25 years (h
Re:The secret (Score:5, Funny)
NeXT (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The secret (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The secret (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple has created a brand experience that most marketing people try to copy harder than eCommerce sites copy Amazon and eBay. Everything about an Apple product lets you know your dealing with a company that puts the user experience first. That's Apples brand niche.
When I bought my first mac some 8 years ago... I was awe struck by the packaging - not of the computer - the card board box it came in was user friendly. It was perfectly clear what was in each box. It was intuitive which piece needed to come out next - the foam that was around the monitor was easy to hold on to and take out. Nothing about unpacking the computer was frustrating.
When Apple retail stores hit the scene, did anyone note that the UI on the electronic signature box matched that of Aqua? Did anyone notice that your receipt font matches the fonts on the box / os x / sales literature etc?
I bought a G4 tower a few years ago and the little details that go into engineering the case and hardware are what diferentiates Apple from any other manufacture I know. I lift a little handle on the side of my case and the whole thing flops open and I have access to clean the entire machine. Additionally, all of the edges of the stamped steel were de-burred so I didn't cut any of my knuckles open as I poked around inside the case. I understand most non-slashdot-reading users will not ever open their case, but much like a Mercedes-Benz, when you look under the hood or at any small corner of the car, you know no expense was spared to ensure whatever level you interface with the product it is solid, reliable and nice.
Even the iPod I bough 3 years ago came in a package that was clearly labeled. It was clear that designers had thought about the process of opening the package, puting the iPod on the left (since we're a left to right society here in the US) where we would look first when orienting ourselves to the two halves of the box.
I expect Jobs and the rest of the crew at Apple to continue making an experience that is every bit as robust and consistent with their products as my last few years of experience with the company has been.
Re:The secret (Score:5, Insightful)
Generally true, but "the experience" runs on Unix. When my non-techie friends ask what kind of computer they should buy, and I tell them to get a Mac, I don't say, "It's really cool to have a great GUI as well as access to all the great command-line Unix tools, all in one carefully thought out integrated package." What I do tell them is, "You get the best, most modern interface, plus it's much more secure and stable than Windows because it's based on Unix, which is the operating system that actually runs the Internet.* So you can just do what you want to do with your computer instead of spending half your time dealing with crashes, viruses, and spyware. Also, if you ever do decide you want to get into some more advanced stuff, let me know." Which is a pretty successful sales pitch, and has the virtue of being both true and relevant to "the experience" they'll have with the computer.
* Yes, I know this is a horrible oversimplification, but it's essentially true, and I'm always happy to go into more detail if people ask.
Re:The secret (Score:5, Insightful)
Consumers resent a crappy product in a pretty box. They feel, with justification, that the company should have spent more money on "making the damn thing work" rather than just slapping on a few go-faster stripes.
That makes style a big market advantage for Apple. It doesn't matter how much you case-mod your Winbox, you'll still be on the patch-and-virus treadmill, and still have the same risk of BSODs as someone using a POS white box. Likewise, a KDE box in a gorgeous enclosure will have exactly the same function set as a built-in-the-basement wonder.
Apple's products are solid enough that their style is worth considering. People freaked out over the Nano because you could scratch the screen if you put it in a pocket full of change, not because it randomly locked up, or because they couldn't transfer some of their files, or because it stopped working in cold weather, or any other basic function issue.
Once you hit the point of diminishing returns on 'making it just work', style is the next playing field on which you compete. But you can't play in the 'style' arena until you've aced the 'it just works' level.
Re:The secret (Score:4, Informative)
If that was really the case, then why is Linux, which is more than Unix ever was barely registering on the desktop market? If Apple licensed the Windows kernel with fixed hardware specs and rock stable drivers for the Mac hardware, do you think users would notice the difference? Everything that makes a Mac worth its pricetag (not my opinion, the market's opinion, I don't own a Mac) is what is running on top.
I do run both a Windows and Linux desktop, Windows because I must (not everything plays nice with WINE) and Linux because it works very well when it works. I've had to make quite a few "one-minute" fixes that don't bother me, but would stop someone like my parents dead in their tracks. Which is why they have Linux boxes I support via OpenSSH, their last Windows box got infected somehow, don't ask me as firewall, anti-virus and anti-spyware was running. I've considered buying them a Mac but it's really overkill for what they use it for.
I don't know quite what to compare it with, the way most people use computers is like having a car with tons of aftermarket parts and absolutely zero clue how to fix the simplest of issues. Hell, most of them like to play part-time mechanic and tune it themselves, or let third parties they don't know do upgrades to it. Not to mention being on the Internet is like having it standing in a bad slum with neon lights saying "Chop shop this" on it.
Macs deliver something like a "standard" car, but a very polished one at that. It comes with fixed accessories that you're not really supposed to replace. Basicly, it's trying to take as much complexity out of having a computer as possible, to make it one where you can just turn the key and drive, like you would a car. Seriously, if my car had as many issues as my computer, I would take the subway, bus, tram, bike, hell I'd even walk rather than own a car. Having a modded car is really cool if you like to tweak around and work on it. If you don't, it's a PITA. I like to tweak around on computers so I don't have a Mac, but that's why Macs do so well.
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:5, Informative)
Dell Inspiron 9400 $3,302
MacBook Pro $3,248
Now to be fare the Dell Inspiron did have a 17" display while the MacBook Pro was only 15. So I added the cost of the apple care program which is about the same as a size upgrade, when comparing older powerbooks of equal specs at different sizes.
Granted that with Dells and other PC you have a wider selection of options that allow you to customize them more closely to your budget. Vs. Apples one size fits group of people. But the Price of Apple Systems are about the same with as its equally match PC brethren.
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Of course, the Mac looks cooler, is lighter, and runs OS X, any of which could make it a better value for a given user
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Or I could go out and buy 50, or 100.
Oh yes, this box dual boots windows xp and debian, I wiped it when I got it and did my own virgin installs.
Tell me where I can go and buy a new Mac laptop at a similar performance / spec point for anywhere near similar money.....
Nah, I'll have to pay double the m
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Apple computers average 5-6 years, PC's last 3-4.
I don't know about you but my 12" powerbook can surf the web wirelessly for about 4 hours on a single battery, can your dell come close to that with two batteries that weigh as much as my entire comptuer?
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
The Core Duo is one of Intel's newest models and prices for the Newer Models vs Prices for older chips move down exponentially, The 3 Ghz back a year ago was still about a year old (Year old specs are normally the sweet spot for performance/price ratio, something Apple trys to avoid by keeping all their specs up, and moying older specs to different models say the iMac, MacMini, and iBook lines loosing some of the similar specs. ).
And if you didn't know on my
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Can you do that with the Dell? I mean, can you boot in to OS X with it? No? Then what are you complaining about?
MAcBook could boot in to Windows, if Windows supported EFI. But since Windows doesn't support it, it wont work. Vista will support EFI, so you should be able to install Vista on the MacBook (alongside OS X, Linux *BSD etc.)
And every time I have handled those low-end PC-laptops, they
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2, Informative)
So Dell does still have the value edge. Of course this doesn't take weight, thickness into account.
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ch424
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mac Book Pro: 1" Thick
Dell 9400: 7.94 lbs (3.60kg)
Mac Book Pro: 5.6 pounds (2.54 kg)
I'm not sure which Dell Screen you picked but:
Dell 9400 17" Screen Res: 1440x900
Mac Book Pro 15.4" Screen Res: 1440x900
Dell 9400: 4 Pin IEEE-1394 (I'm guessing)
Mac Book Pro: Powered 6-pin IEEE-1394
Dell 9400: Windows Mandatory
Mac Book Pro: OS X
Both can dual boot Linux, so that's not really an issue.
I've had my TiBook for 2.5 years now, and was shocked when I saw colleagues getting these huge, fat Dells. Maybe I'm a weak person, but when you can be carrying around a laptop that's 1" thick in place of a laptop that's 1.6" thick, and about a pound and a half lighter, why wouldn't you? I suppose if you like cheap looking plastic, you might prefer the Dells, though, and making sure Redmond gets their tax, and a nice big, low-res screen. I'll take the MacBook Pro
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
If your argument is that the Precision has lower spec's than the Inspiron, in other words that the Inspiron is a better bargain, then you are missing a huge part of the system purchase equation. Quality is worth money, and Dell knows it, even if some Slashdot posters don't.
Digressing for a mome
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, the PowerMac is competitive price wise with any 4-core system you can configure from the major PC manufacturers.
And now the MacBook Pro is similarly competitive, price wise. The parent poster did rightly point out that you have many more options on the PC side however.
You can either save money on the PC side by going with a lesser manufacturer, building it yourself, or making use of a wider range of customisable options. For example, Acer's Core Duo laptop is supposed to be significantly cheaper than the MacBook Pro. OTOH IBM's ThinkPads are roughly on par.
Also don't forget that many people are fed up to the eyeballs with Windows XP, and hell, that Mac OS X keeps getting recommended, and there's all those applications, and my iPod is easy to use, hmm, maybe it is worth a couple of hundred dollars on its own to not get the XP stress.
It does show how overpriced previous PowerBooks were. I wouldn't have liked to buy one in the past few months just to have this come out.
Re:Formula For Success? (Score:2)
That's Bollocks (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Non-gaming software. Apart from some specialised applications, every software area is covered just as well for Mac OS as for Windows.
2) Games. Yes, an issue to be sure. I bet that now Apple are on x86 that Transgaming will release their software to get Windows games running under Mac OS X.
Macs are for people who don't want to think about the computer, and just get the work done. Quite often these people aren't hard-core geeks, but they earn a lot of money from their work, and they more of
Re:That's Bollocks (Score:3, Insightful)
Try Unix administration. I have a buddy who swears by Windows on the desktop, but he has to use a Linux box because none of the software he needs other than an SSH client is available to him on Windows.
As long as we're making up niche anecdotes, I figured we all
Re:Poised to bite the hand that fed it? (Score:2)
Redmond does have a stick to swing against Cupertino: MS Office.
Will Redmond let MSO die like IE?
Re:Poised to bite the hand that fed it? (Score:4, Informative)
And history repeats . . . (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember when Microsoft settled with a company (I believe AOL) back in the 90s and part of the settlement was a cut of all Internet Explorer sales/profit and then Microsoft turned around and reduced the price of Explorer to free? Remember?
Same song, new verse. To wit: commit for the next five years and reluctantly, sluggishly, incrementally release (buggy!) updates to Microsoft Office for Mac OS on Intel. I hope this is not what happens, but if Microsoft gets nervous you can bet this is exactly what will
Re:Poised to bite the hand that fed it? (Score:2)
Re:This is an illusion (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is an illusion (Score:3, Informative)
If you doubt it, do the homework and count the cases. Then compare to the number in which you would have lost money. Compare.
Apple is near a breaking away point (Score:4, Interesting)
If you doubt it, do the homework and count the cases. Then compare to the number in which you would have lost money. Compare. Figure the odds.
This is not investment advice.
But by comparing pure numbers blindly you are ignoring the dynamics of the situation.
Apple's computer share is growing year over year. They are very, very near an infelction point in that graph - where suddenly enough users have Macs that people start buying macs because lots of people they know have them.
And that was before the Intel macs, which seem to be drawing a huge amount of interest - not to mention that undoubtedly some people will want the ust to run Vista on. That could lead to a huge spike in Mac sales for the next few years, and there still is a lot of sales room in the iPod and the expanding vido market (where Google has released an unconvincing competitor).
So if every space they are in has the prospect for almost exponental growth, who is to say they are overvalued? I think that is ignoring the exceptional position Apple has managed to put themselves in. I don't even think it's because Apple is smart so much as other companies have been stupid. But that's exactly how Microsoft got where they are. What if Apple is the next Microsoft? Is it then so overvalued?
Re:Dell selling apples? (Score:3, Insightful)
1) apple likes to make money on hardware. when you install os x, it doesn't ask for a product key? why? apple doesn't care that much about the $100 for OS X; they already got you for $3000 for the hardware.
2) dell makes vastly inferior hardware, and apple would not sully its good name by putting OS X into a shitty dell box
3) as a former dell user turned mac user, i would never buy a dell running os x, since i have experienced t