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OS X Operating Systems

Hacking Mac OS X 486

Bill Hamm writes "DB is carrying a deep interview with Jonathan Rentzsch, who created an open source technology to allow other developers to inject their code into any running process to alter its functions and written papers for IBM to program the PowerPC correctly. The interview is huge and technical, and all over the place in terms of content. Some of the things discussed are the reasons for corporate America's resistance to buying from Apple, software optimization, the importance and history of 10.4's Core Data, why WebObjects is no longer relevant, the status of PowerPC compilers, and why Mac OS X's Finder should be killed off."
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Hacking Mac OS X

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  • by daveschroeder ( 516195 ) * on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:01PM (#12068107)
    ...that the "hacking" in "Hacking Mac OS X" is referring to "hacking [catb.org]" in the traditional sense, not "cracking [catb.org]".

    And for more on mach_inject, referred to in the summary, see Jonathan Rentzsch's website [rentzsch.com]...and an interesting list [rentzsch.com] of mach_inject and mach_override users.

    As for the Finder, it may be true it was a "compromise" of sorts between the NeXT world and the Mac OS world. But it wasn't necessarily the social compromise between "personalities" within Apple it's pained to be; it was likely more of a technical one. It's not perfect, and it's woefully inadequate for some tasks that involve managing thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of files. But it's still more than sufficient, and there's no reason to completely junk it: it can continue to evolve and be improved upon.
    • FYI, no hackers ever referred to their "hobby" as cracking and they never referred to themselves as "crackers". Crackers are people who crack software copy protection.

      Unfortunately, ESR began a strange, revisionist compaign to try and rewrite history, which has all but failed.
      • Not true (Score:5, Insightful)

        by flithm ( 756019 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:37PM (#12068523) Homepage
        It's a well known fact [wikipedia.org] that the term "hacker" did not originally apply to the people that media now calls hackers.

        Cracking [wikipedia.org] refers to people who break into computer systems using nefarious means. Ie Kevin Mitnick is mentioned on the wikipedia page, as he should be since he is probably the worlds most notorious cracker.

        Just because the media says it, doesn't mean it's true. And if a cracker ever refers to him/herself as a hacker, you can rest easy because all your base will not belong to them. Anyone worth their merit knows the correct definition and differentations between cracking/hacking/spidering/phreaking/etc.

        And just in case you all are too lazy to read the links... Linus Torvalds is listed as a famous hacker. This is the true definition of the term. It's not because he ever broke into computer systems, it's because he's a good programmer.

        Also of note is that in the computer science community the word "hack" has gone on to have a somewhat negative connotation. For example, "Dude this code is such a hack." Although this refers more loosely to the "hack and slash" programming methodology... which often results in ugly code that is held together very loosely.

        However, an ugly code "hack" and the word "hacker" are distinctly different. Please refrain from falling prey to false assumptions based on media in the future.
        • Re:Not true (Score:5, Funny)

          by BoomerSooner ( 308737 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @03:10PM (#12068920) Homepage Journal
          A well known fact is a cracker [bullymag.com] is a white dude in his mid 20's that posts on slashdot and has never had a date.
          • Re:Not true (Score:3, Informative)

            by curtlewis ( 662976 )
            cracker (kråk-er) n.
            A thin crisp wafer or biscuit, usually made of unsweetened dough.

            One that cracks, especially:
            A firecracker.

            A small cardboard cylinder covered with decorative paper that holds candy or a party favor and pops when a paper strip is pulled at one or both ends and torn.

            The apparatus used in the cracking of petroleum.

            One who makes unauthorized use of a computer, especially to tamper with data or programs.

            Offensive.
            Used as a disparaging term for a poor white person of the rural, espec
        • Re:Not true (Score:3, Interesting)

          by grapes ( 142628 )
          It's a well known fact that the term "hacker" did not originally apply to the people that media now calls hackers.

          The whole reason this discussion keeps happening is that it is not a "well known fact."

          Just because the media says it, doesn't mean it's true.

          And just because the Jargon File says it's not doesn't make it false.

          Linguistically, words have no transcendent, objective "true" or "false" meaning. The "correct" definition of a word is simply however most people use it. It is not the original
          • Re:Not true (Score:5, Insightful)

            by flithm ( 756019 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @05:42PM (#12070811) Homepage
            Of all the people who replied, your reply was by far the best. You actually thought about it and you make a good point.

            It's true that the general public uses the word in a certain sense... so why fight it?

            Well, I actually have to take exception with your assumption that words have no "correct" meaning. Every word has a correct meaning, and yes it depends on the circumstance.

            I'm not vehemently opposed to the popular usage of the word hacker, but people need to know that the term has really been appropriated by the media and used to distort reality.

            For example, computer crimes now have such a huge negative connotation attached to them (probably because they're grossly misunderstand even by so-called computer experts) that you could spend almost twice as long in jail for "hacking" a bank than if you showed up with a gun and threatened peoples lives in the process (but didn't kill anyone).

            If you hacked a bank, yeah you probably pulled off a magnificent hack, both in the way it was originally intended, and in the way it has come to be known.

            I just wanted to help people remember that we are generally a bunch of brainwashed patsies, and we need to reclaim some critical thinking!

            Look at the replies to my original post. People totally side step the issue nitpicking little insignificant points despite the glaring fact that the term "hacker" does have an alternate meaning.

            I agree that ordinarily arguing semantics is a fairly worthless endeavor, but in this case I have to take an exception. It's not like we're arguing how to spell the rapper $0.50's name (Fiddy, Fifty)... we're discussing a concept vital to the forefathers of computation.

            People like Gosling, Wozniak, even Jobs to some extent... these are some of the people we owe our thanks to for the modern PC, and these people were the true hackers.

            We disservice them by letting the media contort an art form into something which is viewed as illegal.

            Like any art form... a tool can be misused. The sculpturs shaper can easily be used to kill, just like a hammer, screwdriver, hell even a paint brush... but just because a few people kill with a hammer, do we start associating the word "carpenter" with villian?

            No.

            But then again... most of us understand carpentry don't we... not that we can all do it. But it's something every person can at least grasp.
    • by Shisha ( 145964 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:13PM (#12068250) Homepage
      If there are two things I don't like on my PB then it's Finder and QuickTime (player).

      Finder does not seem to be multithreaded, if any network communication gets stuck the whole thing does. Even on large directories it's slow. And the way it insists on showing you previews of files (using QT) and then failing. I have to admit that I only use it as application launcher and simple file operations. For anything else the command line or mc works much better.

      I like the UI, but the core should be rewritten.
      • Completely agreed. If you want to know the definition of "software pain", it's accidentally clicking on a 2-hour mp3 located on a network drive from within finder. Have fun waiting for your "preview"...
      • So turn off the preview column when in Column view, problem friggin' solved.
        • by displaced80 ( 660282 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:48PM (#12068643)
          Ah, c'mon... that's not really a solution is it? Previewing is an excellent feature of column view, and it'd be a shame to turn it off since it's usually very handy. Sadly, Finder's brain-damaged handling of non-local storage makes it occasionally a bit of a nightmare.

          I'm a fan of OS X -- my PC's now just a Wintendo games machine. The Mac has a whole slew of applications I've come to rety on which are just plain better than alternatives (in my experience, of course).

          I also think OS X has some really interesting technology in it, and I find it a real pleasure to use. ... for the most part :)

          I don't have a problem with how the Finder works. Of course, there's room for functional enhancements, but I'm not crying out for anything at the moment. But it really handles previewing (especially over network links, as noted) awfully. It's the only app that causes the spinning-wheel on my system. The idea that waiting for the view of a network share (or even my iDisk) to refresh should cause every other Finder window (including the Desktop) to freeze is crazy. Finder's much better than it was in 10.0, 10.1 (where there was literally NO threading) or even 10.2. But the core really needs some tweaking.

          QTPlayer's not so bad. I've got the Pro version, since I like having Pro's editing and conversion features. It does its job well, but not spectacularly. I'm not going to rant about it because in a few weeks time, I'll be running Tiger with a much-overhauled QuickTime 7.

    • Path Finder (Score:3, Informative)

      by SendBot ( 29932 )
      I use Path Finder [cocoatech.com] as a drop-in replacement for Finder. It's a nice improvement over the standard finder, and its many options and side panels can be turned off to suit your preferences. I really like the drag n' drop 'holder', and showing directories grouped separately from normal files is just a good idea (haven't figured out how to do this with finder, what a pain!)
    • It's not perfect, and it's woefully inadequate for some tasks that involve managing thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of files
      I agree on the other points , however i dont feel this is the point of a program such as finder , finder in this role is more of a browser .I Have always used the Terminal((or terminal emulator) ( on Unix systems)) for file work on this scale.
  • I wasn't aware that something was wrong with finder in terms of useability. Could someone elaborate?

    • by tabkey12 ( 851759 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:08PM (#12068193) Homepage
      Firstly, he is specifically talking about the OS X Finder (comparing it to the OS 9 Finder) and complaining about its design.

      To understand the basic complaint about the OS X Finder look at this ArsTechnica [arstechnica.com] article.

      • Those compaints are from before 10.3 came out, which is when the OS X Finder took several leaps forward.

        Also, most of the article seems to be about pimping an alternative design ideas (mainly credited to Tog) which don't sound better than the current design in any way whatsoever (IMHO, YMMV, uh... IANAL.)
        • As a desktop admin at a site with over 300 macs, I can assure you that the os x finder is pretty much universally disliked by longtime mac users. They have a hard time getting used to it, and try to do OS 9 type things with it, like leaving everything on the desktop , or making data folders on the root level of the hard drive. If I could banish column view from ever rearing its ugly head, I would. Yes finder, I want every frickin filename truncated to fit in that stupid little column. The dock is nice, but
          • by Have Blue ( 616 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @03:27PM (#12069116) Homepage
            Going into terminal and killing the Finder would not help it recover from a fucked up network volume anyway. What's going on is that the Finder is halted and waiting for a response from the network file system driver in the kernel, and *that* is halted waiting for a response from a remote server that is probably never going to arrive. In order to keep everything in synch (I assume it's trying to avoid the driver returning data to internal process accounting structures that no longer exist, or trying to kill the driver within the kernel itself), NOTHING can kill the frozen Finder, up to and including kill -9.
        • by John Siracusa ( 4209 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:36PM (#12068499) Homepage
          Those compaints are from before 10.3 came out, which is when the OS X Finder took several leaps forward.

          No it didn't [arstechnica.com].

          • Bah!

            More "It's still not done the Tog way, therefore it sucks" whining.

            The core complaint:

            Any window can still be "transformed" from a "file browser" to a "regular folder" and back again at any time.

            I call that a Good Thing. The only possible objections are based on old-school MacOS Human Interface Dogma^H^H^H^H^H Guidlines zealotry.

            Let me know when Ars starts complaining about something that matters.
      • by Coryoth ( 254751 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:30PM (#12068451) Homepage Journal
        To understand the basic complaint about the OS X Finder look at this ArsTechnica article.

        Which is essentially asking for a finder that works like the spatial Nautilus (this isn't surprising given that spatial Nautilus was designed based on this series of Ars Technica articles). We all know how well spatial Nautilus was recieved. I don't think you can win - there is no "better" only "different".

        In the end I quite like what Nautilus has ended up with - you can pick or choose between the two options, and both are reasonably (if not exceptionally) well implemented.

        Jedidiah.
    • I'm sure a thousand people can (and will) list a hundred complaints each, but I'll give you just one, albeit one that would be *very* easy for them to fix: why the fuck can't I sort by name|date|size|type|label|whatever in column view?
    • by pavon ( 30274 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:19PM (#12068339)
      John Siracusa of Ars Technica has written up a very fine article [arstechnica.com] about the problems with the OS X finder. I'd give my opinions on the matter, but I have to get back to work.
  • by tabkey12 ( 851759 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:03PM (#12068139) Homepage
    (and btw I did, yesterday)

    The interviewee argues that WebObjects is still relevant, and the fastest way of coding Web Applications, but is in danger of becoming irrevelevant if Apple do not update it soon!

    • by grahams ( 5366 ) * on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:14PM (#12068269) Homepage
      Actually, no, it isn't that clear. FTFA:
      But that wasn't your question. Your question was "is WebObjects relevant"? As a commercial application server: no. It hasn't been for a long time.


      No, WebObjects is only relevant if you're on the hook for writing lots of web applications fairly quickly. There's an definite escape velocity however -- the learning curve is steep, so it really only makes sense if you are currently or planning on becoming a professional developer.
  • so basically is this just like dynamically open sourcing running operations?

    allowing users to modify whatever's running? interesting idea, and might be useful for developers who would like the ability to code in real time and see their changes implemented as they make them.... ...or did i just completely misunderstand that entire thing?
  • Automator (Score:5, Interesting)

    by aftk2 ( 556992 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:07PM (#12068183) Homepage Journal
    I wouldn't be surprised if Core Data apps don't get AppleScriptablity for free-to-cheap circa 10.5.

    Seems like this is the promise of Automator [apple.com] - once every app can understand Applescript, every app can interact with every other, without the user.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:11PM (#12068230)
    The interview is huge and technical, and all over the place in terms of content.

    A huge technical interview on Slashdot?

    A guess that means no one will read it, but everyone has an opinion.
  • ...on SourceForge here [sourceforge.net].

    Nice comment, too:
    // It is truely insane we have to stat() the file system in order to
    // discover the size of an in-memory data structure.
    :-)
    • Missing step... (Score:3, Informative)

      by argent ( 18001 )
      In his original paper [rentzsch.com] there's a missing step:

      1. Discover the original function's address.
      2. Test the waters.
      3. Make the original function writable.
      4. Allocate the escape branch island.
      5. Target the escape island and make it executable.
      6. Build the branch instruction.
      7. Optionally allocate and engage the reentry island.
      8. Atomically:
      a. Insert the original first instruction into the reentry island.
      b. Target the reentry island and make it executable.
      c. Swap the original function's first instruction with our c
  • payroll? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by blew_fantom ( 809889 )
    I live off a PowerBook. I totally live the PowerBook lifestyle. Between a condo, office and the farm, ongoing presentations at PSIG and CAWUG, train rides, plane rides and on-sites, it's just easier to keep everything inside one machine that goes with me and has anything.

    at the risk of being mod'd flamebait... this just oozes Apple marketing speak. seriously... "powerbook lifestyle"? i'm a proud owner of a PowerBook G4 1Ghz 1GB RAM 80GB HD... but i don't live the "lifestyle"... i use it because it g
    • I have the same machine and had the same attitude... I don't live a lifestyle. I just use computers.
    • It's "laptop." (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Thu25245 ( 801369 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:55PM (#12068734)
      Replace "PowerBook" with "laptop" and it makes perfect sense. It's not about the brand name, so much as the flexibility that a portable offers. Some people, upon buying a laptop, get rid of all their desktops and live off of the notebook. It becomes a "lifestyle," inasmuch as your work files, eMail, calendar, address book, etc. are all on a single machine. Like the Blackberry lifestyle, or the Palm Pilot (remember those?) lifestyle, or the cell-phone lifestyle.

      For the longest time, Mac-heads used "PowerBook" to mean "laptop" the way some people use "Kleenex" to mean "facial tissue."
      • Re:It's "laptop." (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Queer Boy ( 451309 ) * <dragon DOT 76 AT mac DOT com> on Monday March 28, 2005 @05:31PM (#12070690)
        For the longest time, Mac-heads used "PowerBook" to mean "laptop" the way some people use "Kleenex" to mean "facial tissue."

        That's because with the advent of the PowerBook 100 Apple basically "invented" the laptop. Do a touch of research and you will see before the PowerBook the portable industry was *frightening*. Every laptop since takes its design directly from the PowerBook.

  • Compilers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bloosqr ( 33593 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:19PM (#12068338) Homepage
    It is obvious from the article that Apple is still using gcc/g++. Why on earth does Apple not use xlc [ibm.com]? On intel the Intel compiler [intel.com] is twice as fast as g++ on our own code base and g++ has largely been optimized on intel machines and I would expect similar performance gains (at least in floating point) w/ a switch to xlc.

    Take a look at this on IBM compilers on mac os x. According to SPEC ratings int performance is 11% to 50% faster using xlc and floating point is apparantly even better. Most of the performance gains are over 50%. Apple of all people can afford a compiler to at least compile their own OS on. The free software side of me in the other hand is happy that they are choosing to improve the gnu compiler instead but it honestly doesn't make any sense to me since they can get a practicaly free huge performance gain on a relatively cheap purchase of a compiler.


    -bloo

    • Re:Compilers (Score:4, Interesting)

      by bloosqr ( 33593 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:22PM (#12068358) Homepage
      Aargh. I forgot to link in the article on xl* versus gnu on the mac os boxes. here it [ctoforaday.com] is. apologies for that.


      -bloo

    • Re:Compilers (Score:4, Insightful)

      by drunkenbatman ( 464281 ) <(i) (at) (drunkenblog.com)> on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:43PM (#12068592) Homepage
      My understanding is that XLC does not do Obj-C, which means Apple can use it for some of the underpinnings, but not in general... Although if you're writing a Cocoa app, it's not uncommon to drop down to straight C and compile that separately, in which case you can purchase and use something like XLC. I believe, anyways.
    • Re:Compilers (Score:5, Informative)

      by rsmith-mac ( 639075 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @03:02PM (#12068807)
      XLC only writes code that's compatible with the G4+ processors, Apple can't use it as long as they need to support G3's too. There are also issues with the fact that it doesn't behave exactly like GCC, so Apple would have to deal with this when building apps that are based on OSS software(i.e. most of the BSDness of the OS), and they'd need to pay to include a copy with every copy of OS X or be stuck in an odd situation of users using GCC while Apple uses XLC.
      • Re:Compilers (Score:3, Informative)

        by bloosqr ( 33593 )
        I am a bit surprised as I have run xlc on aix running on the 200 mhz ppc chip (the brief moment when mac allowed clones, so we bought a slew of mac clones and installed aix on them.. ) I believe this support issue is just a support rather than an intrinsic compiler issue actually as aix on the g3 chip has xlc supported so it shouldn't really be that hard to port over at least if apple was receptive to the idea. Regardless they could use the equivalent of a fat binary if they wanted to and have different run
  • Finder Extentions (Score:3, Interesting)

    by JPyObjC Dude ( 772176 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:40PM (#12068552)
    I agree with the comment about Version Control and Finder. I use TortoiseSVN on win32 and love it. When I code on my mac, I greatly miss this significant integration.

    The beauty of TortoiseSVN (CVS) is that they integrate to the Windows Explorer, which is in turn used by *most* applications in windows for managing files allowing the version control to be very well integrated with the entire operating system.

    Unfortunately on Mac the only decent graphical way of managing Subversion is through eSVN, although there are other projects out there, this one shows the most promice ( I have not actually tested on Mac yet though.

    If Apple could allow for Icon overlays and adding of file attributes similar to Windows Explorer it would be a huge improvement to the usability of OSX for GUI based hacking.

    For Core Mac'ers - Checkout the activity on TortoiseSVN project on tigris.org. There is a huge amount of activity on this project as it is widely used by a very diverse group of hackers. Unfortunately a differentiator on the side of win32.

    JsD
  • Corporate America is risk-averse. With Microsoft, they get their OS from a single company, but they have a wide range of hardware choices. Furthermore, it may be a single software company, the software company is a monopolist, is extraordinarily wealthy, and will hang around for a long time.

    With Apple, they have only a single source for both their hardware and software. The hardware range is limited and prices are essentially fixed by Apple. The operating system is used by only a few percent of compute
    • Or instead of Apple dropping Quartz, which is a huge part of their appeal (to both users and developers), the Open Source community should start working on and in GNUstep, which is an API-alike of the same technologies that OS X is based on.

      Hell, APIs aren't protected I.P., you could make Quartz-compatible APIs for X11 and add them to GNUstep.

      It would serve us better to emulate the good things we see out there, not knock them down to our level.
    • The problem is that Apple's already tried that with the clones. All the clones did was steal Apple's sales, rather than expand the market. Apple needs to expand, but clones currently aren't the way to do it. The current strategy is working much better and making things possible that we wouldn't see otherwise (Mac mini, for example) - we don't need 5 copies of the same model Mac. Apple is making people want their products, and that drives sales.

      If they become larger, then yes clones should be brought back.
    • by goMac2500 ( 741295 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @05:52PM (#12070927)
      Thats a horrible idea. You want them to ditch great next generation technology just to fit in? Apple is all about next generation technology like Quartz, and how would dropping Quartz help them fit in? Every platform has it's own programming interfaces. Linux does, Windows does, Apple does. Are you suggesting that Linux drop its own API's and have everyone standardly use WINE because thats what everyone else uses? Cause Cocoa is so easy, if I had to code using other API's, I would leave the Mac platform.
  • Cost to darn much? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by eclectic4 ( 665330 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @02:57PM (#12068767)
    Or, they don't make/sell crap? Which one is it? Everytime /.ers do these comparisons it seems that the prices are at worst comparible to similar spec'd Win machines. Yes yes, you can build cheaper boxen, great. But I don't think this is what TFA is talking about.

    Now, does the receptionist/accountant/sales person need a Dual 2.5 G5? Hell no. An iMac would even be overkill. But, a Mini IMO may be a nice alternative, especially if you have a room full of CRT's laying around like more and more IT departments are acquiring these days (LCD upgrades at my last two places of employment). Sure, you absolutely can buy cheaper PC's than $500, and many wouldn't need the built in FW, Radeon 9200, iLife, etc... that go into the final price of the Mini (throw in a keyboard and mouse too), but take away admin costs (if all hell breaks loose on an any of our Macs, I can reinstall a clean version of the OS in 20 minutes without touching the user space or installed apps) and it more than makes up for it IMO. Now, enter the OS intuitiveness wars below:
  • by javaxman ( 705658 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @03:17PM (#12068985) Journal
    This is a great read for OS X developers. Actual discussion of EOF ( Enterprise Objects Framework ) and how Core Data is really different; Objective-C, Cocoa and threading; Objective-C code injection and dynamic override; WebOjects Java vs Objective-C; a small bit of talk about Mac programming jobs and reasons for corporate resistance to Apple stuff; all of this with a sense of history and a balanced, insightful view of Apple's corporate policy and history.

    I'm still trying to figure out how it was posted on /. It's sure to just confuse a bunch of people who read the summary and think it's all about how 'the finder sux'... which is the shortest section in there. What's weird is I'd never noticed that hiding the Finder toolbar and sidebar changed the window from bushed metal to aqua look! While I have to admit that's stupid, I'm not sure it's a reason to toss the whole thing ( just make it all one or the other... I hate brushed metal, so I'd make it aqua, but just pick one, Apple! ).

    Of course, I'm in the 'why the hell would you want to hide the toolbar and sidebar' camp, and thus don't often see the aqua-look windows unless I'm undoing something some old-time can't-learn-anything-new all-this-useful-file-navigation-stuff-confuses-me OS 9 user did. I guess that just shows my NeXT vs. Mac OS bias. For me, the Finder is not the biggest problem in OS X. It's the Menu bar. I've realized that it's not so great on larger screens. It's perfect for the Mac Classic screen, but it's not what people look at to figure out what the active application is. I promise, if there's a flashing cursor in a text field, the user is _sure_ that's the active application, they're not looking at the menu bar... it's a broken interface designed for a 9-inch screen. I'd say that's my NeXT bias, but I've spent a lot of time watching people use OS X, and they do _not_ pay attention to the menu bar, which ultimately makes it just a bit of lost screen real estate. Too bad that's the one thing that's not likely to change about Mac OS. Otherwise, OS X is the best thing _ever_.

    • The reason the Mac OS has a single menu bar isn't to help figure out what application you're in, it's to provide a consistent spot to find commands. With Windows and Linux, you never know what window a command is necessarily in, as each window can have its own menu bar. This is compounded on those systems by over-dependence on right-click to get things done.

      (In fact, if you'll notice, most Windows/Linux apps really only have one menu bar; it's just that it's a moving target.)

      Now, I'd be fine with a NeXT-s
  • by sootman ( 158191 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @03:33PM (#12069170) Homepage Journal
    Apple has had *so long* to get the finder *perfect* and it's still not nearly as good as it could be.

    looks-wise: when going from 9 to X, they threw a lot of babies out with the bathwater. consider active and inactive windows. in OS 9: foreground window had 3d effects all around it. EVERY OTHER WINDOW was solid light grey and a 1-pixel darker grey outline, period. no question about which was which. in OS X, it's waaaay too overly-cutely-designed and too subtle to be useful. OK, so the drop shadow is a bit smaller? great, that'd be tought to see even if my desktop picture *weren't* black. And the stoplight buttons are not there? OK, thanks. and the titlebar text goes from dark grey to medium grey? OK, super. OS 9 made the state of the computer *obvious.* OS X hides it behind pretty-but-subtle cues.

    And the performance isn't nearly what it could have been. Every use BeOS? You make a file on the desktop from within an app, boom, it appears in the background instantly. OS X: make a file or folder, click on the desktop to (hopefully) force a redraw, and a moment later (on a dual-G5) it'll show up. Editing a file that you can see in a window in list view? Save it and BeOS updates the 'date modified' column in the background instantly. OS X? Click the file and it'll update. And the Finder is especially lazy about updating disk usage when you have the 'calculate folder sizes' option checked. C'mon, Apple... I had BeOS R3 for Intel and PPC in *1998*! It's 2005 now! Want me to send you my old CDs?

    perfect quote: "Finder X is the compromise between the Mac OS folks and the NeXT folks. Neither won, everybody lost."

    great quote: "the entire bastardized notion of switching from metal to aqua and hiding the sidebar when clicking on the toolbar chiclet in the upper right-hand corner. Bonus: notice how if you click on the extreme right of the chiclet and try to switch back, you fail -- the window theme switch moved the chiclet slightly to the left and now you've got to follow it. Gag. Folks, this type of stuff makes Gnome look good."
    • And the performance isn't nearly what it could have been. Every use BeOS? You make a file on the desktop from within an app, boom, it appears in the background instantly. OS X: make a file or folder, click on the desktop to (hopefully) force a redraw, and a moment later (on a dual-G5) it'll show up. Editing a file that you can see in a window in list view? Save it and BeOS updates the 'date modified' column in the background instantly. OS X? Click the file and it'll update. And the Finder is especially lazy
  • by delire ( 809063 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @03:38PM (#12069241)

    "..and why Mac OS X's Finder should be killed off."

    Precisely, one of the reason I find OSX so annoying to use; this 'Finder' assumes software is somehow lost already. A debilitating metaphor to say the least..
    • Oh really? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday March 28, 2005 @04:00PM (#12069575)
      If it's not lost, how come you are looking for it in the first place?

      At least "Finder" implies you will actually find something you are looking for. Consider please the term "Explorer" which implies a long journey, at great cost and possibly without success at the end. Nothing could be more apt to describe Explorer and the annoying little dog that couldn't find drugs in a reggae bands luggage.
      • It's not that I don't like finding files, it's that I keep losing them again.

        Apple needs to come up with something like Trapper Keeper [tvtome.com], so I won't lose my files. Apple could even replace Jeff Goldblum with Rosie O'Donnel. Yeah, I know. That last bit is brilliant.
  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Monday March 28, 2005 @08:00PM (#12072119) Homepage
    Microsoft put that in Windows, where it was a bad idea. Now somebody put it on the Mac. This is progress?

    The real problem is that interprocess communication under UNIX isn't very good, was added late, isn't portable, and isn't used much. So apps tend to be monolithic, and intercommunication takes place at a very high level, like CORBA, XSLT, or Java RMI, if at all.

    So trying to interpose new features at a lower level tends to involve horrible hacks. In the DOS era, there was "hooking" interrupts (a concept faithfully replicated in all Microsoft's OSs to date.) Then came "injecting DLLs." Now there's this.

    One of the sad things about UNIX/Linux is that the original concept of little intercommunicating programs has been lost. Because the original intercommunication mechanism (pipes) was so weak, the concept didn't generalize.

    I often wonder how different the history of UNIX might have been if, when you invoked a program, you got results back. You get to pass command line arguments and environment variables into a subprocess, but all you get back is a status code. This one-way model permeates the UNIX world. It's one reason that shell scripts and makefiles tend to be so blind.

    What's needed is a sane approach to interprocess subroutine calls. Multics had this. QNX has it. Mach has support for it, but nobody uses it much.

Real programmers don't bring brown-bag lunches. If the vending machine doesn't sell it, they don't eat it. Vending machines don't sell quiche.

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