Apple Users Threaten to Sue Over iBook, iPod 184
An anonymous reader writes "Reuters is running a story about failing Apple hardware. 'Can a few bad apples -- like product quality complaints and potential lawsuits -- spoil the bunch for loyal fans of Apple Computer Inc. ahead of their biggest party of the year? As enthusiasts devoted to Apple prepare to descend on San Francisco next week for the annual Macworld conference, at least two online petitions have collected hundreds of signatures from potential plaintiffs seeking to file lawsuits over claims of defects in the iBook laptop.'" Yay, online petitions, the most effective way to effect change in the world.
Biting the hand that feeds... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Biting the hand that feeds... (Score:2, Insightful)
More "geek friendly" tech support? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:More "geek friendly" tech support? (Score:2, Funny)
Please, replace your keyboard [i-mockery.com] and try again.
Re:More "geek friendly" tech support? (Score:1, Interesting)
Willful Ignorance (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:5, Informative)
The numbers of people having these problems are really starting to come into focus.
http://www.petitiononline.com/ibook123/petition
has almost 1900.
http://blackcider.com/
has 1200.
Of course, a lot of these people are going to be the same on these petitions, but that is a lot of people to be having a *serious* defect on a computer.
If Apple said, "Ok, lets fix them all, warranty or not", and the fix was $500, then it would cost Apple $1,250,000 for only 2500 units. No wonder why Apple doesn't want to deal with this problem!
3 months warranty extension after repair (Score:5, Informative)
If a similar law were to apply in the US as well, then I'm sure Apple would think twice about shoving this problem under the carpet, since not taking action would possibly cost them more money in fines and legal expenses than if they just fixed the ibooks even though they're just out of warranty. Not to mention the reputation and goodwill that would be at stake.
Is there a similar law in the US? Knowing how little the US government protects consumers from malevolent companies, there probably isn't.
Call us communists, but the simple fact remains that corporate interests are often not the same as consumer's interests. The customer's rights should be defended, and there is definately a role for the government to play here.
Re:3 months warranty extension after repair (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:5, Insightful)
If your warranty is up, so is free service. End of story.
And read some of the signatures on that petitiononline.com site, here's a few examples:
1013.
Bastich
FIX MY SH1T YOU A55HOLES!!!! I'M COMIN TO YOUR KEYNOTE WITH A BAG OF ROTTEN APPLES!!!!!
1019.
LOL
Hey.....iBook owning JACKASS... YOU should have bought a DELL!!!!!
Inspiron 8100
NOTHING EVER..may out live me....
Not to mention a number of them say "Apple replaced my logic board!" I fail to see exactly what is wrong with Apple giving these people customer service. Then there's the one's who say "I'm out of warranty and they won't fix it for free!" Again, what's the problem here?
And there are also additional signatures from people with all kinds of problems completely unrelated to iBooks. These petitions do not reflect some serious overwhelming problem. I'd like to see a list of people who are perfectly content with their iBook (like myself).
These people just need to understand that if they are out of warranty, things won't be fixed for free.
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:4, Informative)
Include me in your list of content iBook owners. I bought my 700 MHz 14" iBook in September 2002, and have not had one single hardware issue with it since. Oh, wait, my power adapter connector is bent a little bit, but that's because I stepped on the power cord and yanked it out of the socket on the laptop.
If my iBook had been my old PB 190cs, that would have probably pulled the socket off the machine. I, for one, think that the iBook is a pretty solidly-designed machine. I've dropped it several times, and generally used it every single day, and am still going strong even now that it's out of warranty. If something goes wrong, I'll pony up the bucks to get it fixed. It's a damn good laptop for all I require of it (remote access to my home network, creative writing, email, simple photo-editing, syncing my iPod...)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
This isn't a warranty issue. This is an embarrassment for Apple that they must address. If they are trying to gain customers, then this is a bad way to do it. I have purchased one new Apple product, and will never again. I switched, and then I switched back.
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:3, Informative)
What is the problem here???? If someone wants a longer warranty period, they should have paid for an extended warranty contract (like AppleCare)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
I am really annoyed at all the people whining about the iPods, however. The complaint was somewhat justified when apple had no replacement program, but now that they do, I see no problem. It is unfortunate that the batteries cost $99, but
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
I certainly do.
I don't know about Dell, but both Toshiba and IBM (as well as HP/Compaq, Lexmark, Epson, and others I've dealt with) have some flexibilty with regards to warranty terms.
As someone who's worked in computer sales, almost every company I've dealt with will
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:3, Interesting)
The damn thing's bomb proof!
I love it, and can't bring myself to sell her to subsidise an upgrade, not that I really need it.
If your warranty is up.... (Score:2)
I would say it depends: if very few of your customers face problems after the warranty, then yes, you may have a point.
If a sizeable amount of people have problems shortly after the warrante is over this may be perceived as mismanagement or willful misleading. If I had a dead machine on my hands 2 or 3 days after the warranty expires my first thought would be " bastards. they knew it was going to brake". If I am the only one, yeah, I may be unlucky.
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:4, Insightful)
The original 500mhz iBook (meaning the first generation models) had defects. Those defects were found through a program that Apple entered into with a certain highly contentious school system in central Virginia (Henrico county for those of you not aware of that). In the first 3 months of handing these rugged, compact notebook computers to a bunch of high school kids, Apple got to see what kinds of abuse these machines could handle.
The first issue was the CD-ROM drive tray. People who did read the directions, or who were overly impatient, had a tendancy to rip the CD tray out of the machine. The next thing they saw was a design flaw with the screen latch that held the lid closed. It was too thin and was breaking off. For both of these major issues, they repaired every single one of those machines that failed (which, suprisingly, was not all 12,000 that had been deployed, only about 1 in 10 machines actually failed due to these flaws).
This logic board issue appears to be a longer term issue. But, given the number of complaints (1200 registered on one website, and in reality, maybe 75% of those are legitimate complaints of failure, seeing as many of the complaints are actually Apple haters making rude comments) I don't see an issue. How many actual logic board failures are there? In total? And how many iBooks have been sold? So what percentage of iBooks have actually failed? Does this percentage actually qualify as an inherent design flaw, or is it a matter that these people (and statisticly, there is no way of avoiding this circumstance) are the unlucky few that got either truly defective machines, or have unknowingly abused their machines to the point of failure or even repeated failure?
An example of unknowingly causing failure. Shutting down their machines everyday or power cycling their machines at least twice per day of usage. Hate to break it to you folks, but this kind of usage inherently causes excess strain on your computers components. If you you think about it, every time you power cycle your machine, you are forcibly starting and stopping electrical spikes through your boards. While sleeping the machine does similar things, the machine never truly achieves a state of no charge, so the components are not being slammed by electrons repeatedly. Ok, someone is going to try and slam me for stating that one, but I'm trying to point out the simple fact that if you keep flipping a switch, it's eventually going to break. These computers are silicon, metal and plastic. All 3 of those materials wear out over time and use. Heavy extended use will increase the change of breakage.
Next issue. Enviornment. Apple doesn't know what type of enviornment these complaints are stemming from. Do you work in a heavy industrialized city? Do you carry your iBook everywhere with you? Are you popping it in a Kensington bag and thinking that you can swing it around and bounce it off the walls because it's in a padded sleave? Are you avoiding flexing the casing? Are you torquing the lid everytime you open it, causing the plastic of the lid hinges to grind against each other? Are you constantly taking your iBook out at Starbucks and putting it down on a table that someone just spilled their Caramel Frappacino on?
These are but a few of the things I can think of to shorten the lifespan and usability of an iBook, let alone a Powerbook. These are not hardened laptops. You don't see U.S. Marine commanders lugging an iBook into a warzone. No, they carry a $15,000 486 in a case truly engineered to be dropped, shaken, hit, submerged , microwaved (or even actually nuked) and still function. So don't think you can be taking your iBook to the pool and wonder why you smell ozone when some kid slogs half the pool on your expensive laptop.
Ok, now to counter balance my vehement dislike of this subject, and those at the center of it (the complainers, not Apple), I will address Apple's a
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
They fixed it. What's the problem?
Just because he's a "home user" does not exempt him from needing backups. The technology is there, the ability is there, it's very simple to back up data. You can't blame a company for user incompetence.
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:2)
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:3, Insightful)
None of these computers have ever had a single hardware problem. Any manufacturer will ship some defective machines, but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Mac users have had experiences similar to mine.
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:4, Insightful)
>hardware problem. Any manufacturer will ship some
>defective machines, but I'm willing to bet that the
>vast majority of Mac users have had experiences
>similar to mine.
All of that is probably true, but we are talking about a limited problem that affects a certain percent of a specific model of Mac.
Good for you that you haven't had problems, and hopefully you never will, but those who have had these problems are justifiably angry.
Re:Willful Ignorance (Score:5, Insightful)
From a business standpoint, you're one user. Even with (say) 2000 people sharing this problem (a fraction of total users), only a fraction of them will decide never to get another Mac, and those are the ones least likely to get another in the first place.
I, another 20 year old first-time user, have had no problems with my year-old PowerBook G4[*], and am absolutely certain that my next computer will be a G5. "Alienate all of us", my ass.
[*] Indeed, the 12" model with supposed "heat problems" : a lot people bitching because some parts of the case (that you will never touch in normal use) get too hot to touch for extended periods of time. Just like every other laptop on the market. But people feel like Apple should be able to violate the laws of thermodynamics on the threat of "I'll never buy another Mac again!" I'm not saying that these iBook problems are the same kind of thing, but...well, yeah, actually, I am saying that it's the same thing.
YMMV, RTFM, Caveat Emptor.
Have you considered buying AppleCare? (Score:5, Informative)
1) you pay a price for a computer. It is warranted to be free of material defects for a year, and they promise to repair or replace it during that period for free;
2) if you would like them to support the machine thereafter, you can pay a few hundred dollars to extend that warranty for an additional three years, more than the usual lifetime of any reaonable personal computer;
3) if you don't, Apple WILL repair your machine on a case by case basis -- they will fix a machine in generally ok condition for a fixed fee and, except for certain serious problems, that fixed fee (just a bit more than the AppleCare purchase by the way) will get you a virtually refurbished machine back.
That WAS the deal -- it was black and white. You didn't take the deal, and now have a machine that needs to be repaired. I understand that you would rather not pay for it. Aside from that, what, exactly, is your complaint?
Re:Have you considered buying AppleCare? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Have you considered buying AppleCare? (Score:2)
And last time I got a late repair, they honored an incidental failure 90 days after close of warranty.
Re:Bullshit (Score:2)
However, if the machine breaks outside the warranty, it will cost you money to repair it.
The chances are that it won't break though.
Should the warranty be longer? Maybe, but you'll find most electronics manufacturers have warranties of one year or less.
If there's a specific problem then it will likely be addressed - like the MDD Windtunnel G4's noisy power supply, the iBook's 'saucer' power supply, the G4 Superdrive
Keep your head above water . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
The question is whether Apple is bound, legally or otherwise, to repair an out-of-warranty machine. Answer is clear legally. Morally, they are on no higher or lower ground than any other corporation responsible to its shareholders -- they generally do not.
Apple provides an effective four year warranty, one
I like new machines . . . (Score:2)
If you say so. . . (Score:2)
Enjoy the rhetoric, but you can't name another computer manufacturer that has a better deal without additional costs for extended warranties.
Not too bright, I see... (Score:5, Interesting)
And, if your reading this Mr BlackCider, they did recall a few things already (making your bad-recall-press rant in your Open Letter [searchrochester.com] a bit moot), like the powersupply for the G3 [apple-powe...laints.com] and the replacement plan for noisy G4's [macnn.com]. Hopefully they address this and all you iBook users out there with this problem get a solution, soon.
Why The Commotion? (Score:4, Informative)
Even though my two main Macs have had one problem each, Apple's technical support has been nothing short of stellar. I purchased a PowerMac in August of 2002. The machine had some display problems. Apple two-day shipped me a replacement video card and DIMM. After those didn't solve the problem, I had to take the machine into a shop. Once I got the machine back (it apparently had a bad processor daughter card), I found that the local shop had broken my video card. Apple overnighted me a new video card - a video card better than my original one.
I'm sure my story isn't indicative of everyone's experiences with Apple's technical support, but I'm also sure that Apple's high technical support marks from major computer magazines isn't illusory, either.
Re:Why The Commotion? (Score:2)
Well, the warranty runs out in 3 months actually, because the last repair is only a week ago and you get 90 days warrant
iPod Battery FAQ (Score:5, Informative)
Mod parent up (Score:2)
Not the first iBook Problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Not the first iBook Problem (Score:2)
Personally, I think it's a design flaw when it fails after 3-4 months.
i am disappointed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:i am disappointed (Score:2)
Sounds like you bought a Vaio.
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
Re:dead ibook (Score:4, Informative)
So for $250 she ends up getting the iBook fixed, plus whatever few months remain on the extended warrenty. As much as laptop computers get banged around, it's a good idea to get the longer warranty for a PowerBook or an iBook anyway.
Mod parent up! Informative and useful!! (Score:2)
Re:dead ibook (Score:3, Informative)
Re:dead ibook (Score:2)
Re:dead ibook (Score:2)
Wait, shouldn't she get a new warranty on the remanufactured machine?
Here's how out-of-warranty things should work:
My TiVo died last year, it was out of warranty. TiVo told me to send it in, along with $100 (half the cost of a new one) and they'll send me a remanufactured one. The remanufactured one has a 1 year warranty.
That's how things should be done.
Established Mac sites leading the charge (Score:5, Informative)
Apple's own boards are buzzing with hundreds of posts. But the real action is at Macintouch.com and MacFixit.com, where both owner experiences and technical analysis are being shared as people try to understand why this is happening and decide what to do. If you have a problem iBook, try there. If you are thinking of an iBook purchase, better look there, too.
Why all the commotion? Simple: lots of iBooks broke down, then they broke down again, and through it all Apple has kept mum. Now, it's one thing when software, like Windows, performs crappily; people will endure an awful lot of that. When their shiny months-old laptop is going back for the second, third, or fourth logic board replacement, however, they tend not to be so forgiving.
Re:Established Mac sites leading the charge (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Established Mac sites leading the charge (Score:2)
Is the lesson learned to simply purchase this additional insurance? It seems like folks who got AppleCare are just inconvenienced in the short term, whereas folks that didn't get AppleCare are up a creek.
Re:Established Mac sites leading the charge (Score:2)
Want my honest advice? Next time there's even the slightest problem (even just software), go to the nearest apple store, ask them to pull up your repair record, and say (preferably in an angry tone of voice) "this number of repairs is unacceptable, at what point do you do a replacement?" Now, they can't answer that directly... but each component has a certain "score", and if you exceed a certain number of points of replacements, they are allowed to (NOT required to) replace the whole machi
powerbooks (Score:2, Interesting)
I have been extremely careful with mine... yet paint is coming off everywhere! It literally bubbles off, and other places the paint has completely discoloured...
I know i'm not the only one that has these problems, some batches of tibooks have had severe paint issues, and nothing has been done about that either....
D.
Paint Issues (was:powerbooks) (Score:1)
Now the people who are seeing sparks or having major problems with the equipment just not working I can understand however you are having issues with the paint job, this is not a real problem, it just does not look as good as it could.
To be honest as well, while the paint may come off those machines take a lot of pain. I had a friend take his to Iraq when he was on duty and his surivied for the largest part of his time there, no normal pc laptop I kno
Re:Paint Issues (was:powerbooks) (Score:2)
Take a look at my documented repairs:
My first unit before shipping to Apple. [djedwhite.com]
My Powerbook after the first repair. [djedwhite.com]
My Powerbook after the 4th trip. [djedwhite.com] Apple replaced the unit after this.
Now, just because you may not have encountered these issue
Re:Paint Issues (was:powerbooks) (Score:2)
Re:powerbooks (Score:2)
The only thing I needed to fix on mine was the power AC adapter (I got it yesterday) because I broke the wire although I did fix it so it worked I needed something
Personal Experience (Score:2)
Anyway.. I didn't treat it rough or anything and after 11 months, one day I'm using it just fine, put it to sleep, moved it to another desk, opened the lid, then the display flickered a little, then a lot, then went off completely.
Restarted it, it came back. After a few minutes it did it again.
Fortunately I managed to turn on file sharing and SSH so I could get my fi
Re:Personal Experience (Score:1)
I orignially thought this happened because I dropped it, but the kernel panics started a week or so before I dropped it, so now I'm not so sure.
I sent the iBook in to get fixed the first time, and it came back with display issues (vertical red lines on certain areas of the screen like the do
Re:Personal Experience (Score:2)
What's funny is that when I worked tech support for another company, the jerks were the ones praised for having short call times.
The nice guys working to fix customers' problems get screwed on both sides of the equation. i.e. belligerents intent on taking out their self-inflincted frustrations on you
Shoes & Feet (Score:2)
Apple have it in their power to right the wrongs and improve production quality so it's back on track where it's supposed to be. People don't make up stories about bad mobos if there's nothing wrong with their mobos.
Apple are off the 'good guys' list at Consumer Affairs. If they w
Wheat Thins (Score:3, Insightful)
The iPod battery problem is pretty absurd. I've miraculously fixed more than one iPod whose owner knew beyond any doubt their iPod battery was dead. A bug in the 1.x firmware causes the iPod to not wake up if the battery charge drops to zero. All that is required is a few minutes charging and a hard reset, holding down menu+play/pause for a few seconds.
That isn't to say several people haven't really had their battery die. In the case of a truly dead battery there's always been a few options. Since the second generation iPod's release there's been iPod batteries available for sale from various retailers. Besides retailers there's always been AppleCare available for the iPods. It costs $60 for an extra two years of warranty coverage. That is $60 for three years total of battery replacement and any other sort of repairs. You don't even need to buy it when you buy the iPod. Whining about not being willing to protect a $300-500 investment is a bit absurd to me.
The situation is similar for the iBooks. Having a major hardware component die is absolutely no fun. However this sort of failure is something that would be covered and has been covered under the hardware warranty. If people with failed logic boards did have AppleCare they'd be up and running again in under a week. Instead they want to rant and rave and make money selling t-shirts.
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:2)
This is not about whether it's fun or not. There are systematic failures of the same components (motherboard, video cables, video chip) of different iBooks from different people all over the world, happening after roughly the same time (about one year). There is clearly a design error, not some
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:2)
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:2)
The standard 1 year warranty is meant to cover those and it's true that if you have bad luck, your machine may die 1 day after your warranty expires. However, if it turns out that a
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:2)
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:2)
Mine's been in the shop for 2 weeks now with no estimate for a fix. This is the second logic board replacement in a 10 month o
Re:Wheat Thins (Score:2)
I didn't drop it off at CompUSA. I dropped it off at a local Seattle certified Apple repair center with whom I've happily done business for some 15 years. They have experience doing low-level repairs in-house and send machines to Apple if needed.
To hold Apple accountable for their behavior just plain isn't fair. Place blame as it is appropriate - Apple for the failure, CompUSA for slow-ass repair service...
If you're go
The last two class actions I have been a part of (Score:3, Insightful)
The winners in both suits were the suits (pardon the pun).
If these consumers want to punish Apple with hundreds of thousands in legal fees and bad press then they are on the right track. If they want free batteries or better iBooks, then they should look elsewhere.
Re:The last two class actions I have been a part o (Score:2)
But I agree, some class-actions get crap for the class.
Whining about not buying Applecare? Be real! (Score:5, Insightful)
I have NEVER had Apple refuse service durring the warranty period, and their work has been exemplary. I have had machines die before and after the warranty period, and it is rarely problematic to have them serviced. AppleCare is a good deal, although I haven't bought it for all my machines -- and when I don't, I attribute it to my own bad judgement/luck, rather than blaming the failure to buy the very reasonable extended warranty.
I would be frankly astonished if there was any legal cause of action for a post-warranty failure that Apple refused to fix for free. Apple's warranty and service are comparable to that of the industry at large, better than some and not as good as others, but certainly not an unreasonable business practice.
The guy's website seems more like whining to me than a legitimate complaint.
Re:Whining about not buying Applecare? Be real! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Whining about not buying Applecare? Be real! (Score:4, Informative)
A great example is I had an old clamshell iBook which was dropped and the latch which closed the CD-ROM door had broken. I called Apple, and technicaly speaking, drop damage is not covered by waranty, but when I explained what had happened, they gladly offered to repari the drive, and sent me an overnight box. 4 days later I got the iBook back with a new CD-ROM drive, and a note saying they had noticed some cracks starting in the front svreen bezel and had replaced that too. Free of charge.
And I'm not the only one, I know plenty of people that have never had a bad experience with Apple tech support, and I know others that could only tell you of one instance. I am led to believe that people are just stupid about what they're doing and they act like assholes to tech support.
I read it -- now I'm sure he's whining (Score:2)
say, what? replace factory installed ram with original ram? what does that mean (sounds to me like an admission he WAS screwing around with the machine)?
Anyway -- this isn't an inherent problem with an iBook. He is claiming a straight breach of contract, and the results are ultimately fact-specific (whether his motherboard was, in fact, damaged by him) -- HARDLY a basis for a class action. Given
They would lose a class action suit badly. (Score:3, Informative)
We have just about every kind of mac ever made, and overall their quality is outstanding. New imacs, old imacs, old clamshell ibooks, etc.
The MLB issue these dual USB ibooks are having are much worse than you'd imagine. We have about 150 of them, and we fully expect every one of these to die at least once. We've logged about 70 logic board replacements so far. Some machines have had two boards already.
Re:They would lose a class action suit badly. (Score:2)
Students: Body damage, broken disk drives (trying to get stuck disk), CD-ROM (tray, or filled with pennies so gears break). Pretty much anything on the outside or with an entry point.
Teachers: Some body damage, but usually not too bad. Main
Apple knew in 2001 (Score:2)
Are extended warranties worth their money? (Score:2, Insightful)
My observations so far:
1. the average "useful" life span of a Mac is 3-4 years (over a PC 2-3 years) before upgrading to a faster machine, even if it has not failed. * implies normally Mac are better built.
2. If it is your primary machine and you are crap about backing up etc then you should get Apple Care. * just common sense..
3. It is unfair, but if your machine goes down out of warranty.. tough. When you buy a ca
Re:Are extended warranties worth their money? (Score:2)
The only major repair I ever needed was a logic board replacement 3 years
1209 / 760,000 = not bad for Apple (Score:3, Insightful)
According to the current frong page of "Black Cider" [blackcider.com], 1209 people have signed up for their alleged class action law suit. Presumably, most of those people are legitimately having serious hardware problems with an iBook that they bought during the last year.
Assuming that iPod sales don't vary wildly by season (and their 9-month number, 509,000, shows that this is a valid assumption), then we can guess that Apple shipped somewhere in the neighborhood of
4 * 190,000 = 760,000
iBooks in the last year. If you ask me, a failure rate of
1209 / 760,000 = 0.0000827
or 0.00827% speaks pretty darn well for Apple hardware reliability.
Yes, surely there are plenty of people out there having problems who haven't even heard of this law suit. By the same token, there are surely plenty of problems that Apple has resolved amicably. Therefore, the number above isn't really a failure rate, but instead the rate of seriously disgruntled iBook consumers.
If I were considering a major purchase and the salesperson supplied numbers showing me that there was a 99.99% chance that I'd be happy with the product, I think I'd reach for my credit card.
Stop Whining (Score:3, Interesting)
But I am an owner of three Macs (currently), past owner of several more and happy iPod owner.
I've never bought AppleCare on any of my machines because literally nothing hardware-related has ever gone wrong with them. I'm serious - no bad PSUs, no dead pixels (not even one), no nothing. I haven't had a kernel panic since OS X's Public Beta. And I am not shy about cracking boxes open and throwing in extra hardware, though I haven't broken out a soldering iron. Yet.
These disgruntled Mac folks probably have gotten used to similar experiences, and when they get a taste of real PC medicine they cry foul.
Go stuff it, you troublemaking bastards. You read the warranty information - or if you didn't you deserve what you get. Did you buy an extended warranty that would cover your complained-of problems? No? You really expect Apple's products to last forever, even though the company uses nearly all industry-standard equipment? You expect Apple's Li-Ion batteries to magically outlast the identical competition?
Take your licks and quit spreading accusations, petitions and talk of lawsuits. Or even better, go buy from another company and bring your unreasonable dissatisfaction with you. If you're not willing to recognize that an out-of-warranty personal computer (or MP3 player) is your responsibility alone... I guess you're not really a Mac person.
Whining about whiners... (Score:4, Interesting)
I have no complaints about Apple's support at all. Quite the opposite, actually; the people I've dealt with on the phone have been extremely helpful, and when I've had to send my iBook in to be repaired, it's been returned to me so quickly that they must've fixed it and put it back in the mail immediately after it reached them. They've even replaced part of the case that was scratched while they were fixing other unrelated things.
The problem isn't with how wonderful their support department is or how they're willing to fix anything at no cost (as long as it's under warranty). The problem, for me at least, is that in the year I've had my iBook, I've been unable to use it for a significant amount of the time while it's being repaired. This past fall, during the most recent period it was in for repairs, I counted all the things that had gone wrong with it and determined that it's had a major hardware failure that made it completely unusable every 55 days since I bought it. I hardly ever travel with it, and I'm very gentle with it. It doesn't take any kind of abuse at all, unlike some people's laptops, but it still manages to be completely useless far too much of the time.
I brought my iBook with me on vacation last spring to work on some programming projects to pass the time while traveling, and it died the day after I left. By now, almost a year later, I can't trust that my computer, which I paid over $1000 for, will work long enough that I can start and finish a project on it before it up and dies on me, and although Apple has taken good care of me and fixed it repeatedly, they obviously haven't solved the problem, since it keeps happening over and over and over. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people with similar stories to mine. This is the problem.
I'm not asking for Apple to do anything special for me or to give me any kind of special treatment. I just want the computer I paid for to work for more than a few weeks at a time. If something goes wrong once in a while and I have to have it fixed, I can understand that, but if replacing the same part (the logic board) a couple times doesn't solve the problem, I don't want them to keep pretending that trying again a third, fourth, or eleventh time is going to make a difference if there's something fundamentally wrong with the design or manufacturing process.
All I want is a solution to whatever it is that's wrong with this generation of iBooks (which I am otherwise completely happy with, when mine works) so I can use it normally without being panicking and worrying that it's broken again whenever I see some kind of rendering or display artifact on the screen. I'm sure the poor support people at Apple would be happy to be done dealing with me calling in on a regular basis so they can take a break.
Re:Whining about whiners... (Score:2)
I'm afraid you're treading on thin ice with your reasonable position. This is slashdot, where judgment of others is swift and extreme.
That said, I completely agree with you. It seems like the issue here has been twisted from legitimate problems with iBook logic boards to some strawman about how if you don't buy Applecare, you don't have a right to complain.
I bought Applecare. No problem with that. But there is clearly a congenital defect in th
Re:Whining about whiners... (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously there are! But since there are - in general - millions or tens of millions of iBook and powerbook users, hundreds or even thousands would not accumulate even to 0.1% of the user base. I am sorry for your bad luck - but it's just bad luck. If 99.9% machines work flawlessly - this means that there will be thousands or dozens of thousands unhappy users, very active on the Internet (writing petitions, participating in Usen
Always-satisfied customer here-- and I had a 5300! (Score:4, Insightful)
There was a problem with the Duos where the keyboard was excessively mushy. Apple created some sort of repair extension program for that, and I got it taken care of for free when I brought the Duo in to a dealer to have a modem installed. That Duo ran like a champ until I sold it.
The 5300 series, everyone knows what crap they were. I had screen hinge problems and bezel separation problems, all kinds of crap. Apple instituted a 7 year repair extension program for those. Toward the end of it they did a trade-in offer for remaining 5300 owners to get a discount on a G3 Powerbook. I had sold my 5300c on eBay long before that, though, because I didn't need a laptop any longer.
In June 2001 I bought the 500MHz iBook, it ran problem-free for the 18 months I had it and went everywhere with me in my backpack when I was working. Sold it a year ago on eBay for only $200 less than I paid for it.
A year ago I bought an 800MHz iBook. About a month ago, I ran into the display problem everyone's bitching and moaning about, but I had not heard of this being a frequent problem back then. My iBook was still within warranty by a few weeks. I called the support line without a chip on my shoulder about it. The guy on the other end was friendly and professional. He also spoke intelligible English, because he was American-- a major plus after dealing with Dell support for one of my clients. He walked me through some tests, agreed that the unit was hosed, and dispatched a box. I got my iBook back a week later, good as new. I also bought AppleCare while I was on the phone with him. Like I said, I wasn't aware of the frequency of this problem at the time-- but I figured that if I sold this iBook to upgrade to a newer Apple laptop, the extended warranty would be a nice selling point. Likewise, if I kept it for 3 more years and something went wrong, I'd be covered.
To sum up, in my experience, when Apple has a widespread defect like this, they eventually do the right thing. The best example is their program to do free repairs on the PowerBook 5300 defects for an extraordinary seven years from the date the model was discontinued, followed by trade-in offers for a discount on new equipment.
As for these iPod battery whiners, though, I say tough shit. It's a *battery*. Batteries will eventually cease to do their job and need to be replaced. Most will last as long as their manufacturer (who is NOT Apple, BTW) intended. Some will go well beyond that. Some will fail right away, within your warranty, and some will die sooner than manufacturer spec but after your iPod warranty. Them's the breaks.
~Philly
My ghetto ibook repair (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Glad I have an old iBook :) (Score:2)
WHY DOES IT STILL RUN?!
Best apple advice you'll ever hear.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Take the money and go buy a brand spanking new Powerbook. It'll be faster, pretty, AND it'll come with the new version of the operating system you'd have to pay for anyway. Don't forget to include that in the cost total.
Amortize the lost cost over that year. You'll find in most cases it is much less than 100 dollars/mo.
Re:Best apple advice you'll ever hear.. (Score:2)
Here's hoping the Apple mods give you a +1, insightful.
Re:Best apple advice you'll ever hear.. (Score:2)
If you don't like eBay, try PowerMax [powermax.com]. Call them and give them specs; they'll quote you a price.
For those in the Portland area, they're in a business park in Lake Oswego. It's the same company as the Portland Mac Store (formerly The Computer Store) at Lloyd Center. For the rest of you, you can ship it via FedEx/UPS/ABX/whatever.
Getting a good chuckle out of this (Score:3, Informative)
There isn't a single week that goes by that I don't have to deal with one of these things shutting down, restarting spontaneously, overheating, making enormous amounts of hideous noise, or basically being contrary.
You know what? I can't find a single angry web site telling people not to buy Dells because of these Latitude L400s. I certainly can't find any lawsuits.
But since it's Apple, people expect the hardware to be absolutely perfect. And when it's not, they expect out of warrantee service for free. ('This product is warranteed against manufacturing defects for the period of one year'. Not 'this product is warranteed against manufacturing defects forever, and for any old way you can fuck it up including dropping it six feet onto concrete for the period of one year'.)
I honestly don't understand it. Are Apple fanatics really just that much more unrealistic than people who buy Windows machines? I mean, I'm a big Apple fan, even worked for them for a while, but I don't expect Apple's stuff to be perfect. And, from my experience, it's definitely better than the alternatives already.
-fred
I'm certain (Score:2)
Re:Interesting dilemma (Score:2)
I have seen diehard windows users who will admit that they never had trouble with their system crashing and viruses. Or Linux users that have never had a problem with their Linux systems.
Diehard Zealots are in every camp and they all do the same thing. Lie about what they are zealot about because they cant face the truth that something can be wrong.
Re:Interesting dilemma (Score:3, Insightful)
This isn't to say that there arn't any incoherant diehard zeolots out there but due to the folks with a high tolerance for computer problems it appears that there are more of them than there are.
Re:Yes, I'll sue, too (Score:2)
Question... (Score:2)
Anyways, my folks had the 14-in-a-45 port problem. I fixed it by lifting up
Re:FUD (Score:3, Funny)
My friend owned a Ford Pinto for 10 years with no problems.. obviously that means there is nothing wrong with the Pinto's design.