Big Mac Benchmark Drops to 7.4 TFlops 417
coolmacdude writes "Well it seems that the early estimates were a bit overzealous. According to preliminary test results (in postscript format) on the full range of CPUs at Virginia Tech, the Rmax score on Linpack comes in at around 7.4 TFlops. This puts it at number four on the Top 500 List. It also represents an efficiency of about 44 percent, down from the previous result of 80 achieved on a subset of the computers. Perhaps in light of this, apparantly VT is now planning to devote an additional two months to improve the stability and efficiency of the system before any research can begin. While these numbers will no doubt come as a disappointment for Mac zealots who wanted to blow away all the Intel machines, it should still be noted that this is the best price/performance ratio ever achieved on a supercomputer. In addition, the project was successful at meeting VT's goal of developing an inexpensive top 5 machine. The results have also been posted at Ars Technica's openforum."
Important items of note (Score:5, Informative)
First, from a an Oct 22 New York Times [nytimes.com] story:
Officials at the school said that they were still finalizing their results and that the final speed number might be significantly higher.
This will likely be the case.
Second, they're only 0.224 Tflops away from the only Intel-based cluster above it. So saying "all the Intel machines" in the story is kind of inaccurate, as if there are all kinds of Intel-based clusters that will still be faster; there is only one Intel-based cluster above it, and with only preliminary numbers for the Virgina Tech cluster at that.
Third, this figure is with around 2112 processors, not the full 2200 processors. With all 1100 nodes, even with no efficiency gain, it will be number 3, as-is.
Finally, this is the a cluster of several firsts:
First major cluster with PowerPC 970
First major cluster with Apple hardware
First major cluster with Infiniband
First major cluster with Mac OS X (Yes, it is running Mac OS X 10.2.7, NOT Linux or Panther [yet])
Linux on Intel has been at this for years. This cluster was assembled in 3 months. There is no reason for the Virginia Tech cluster to remain at ~40% efficiency. It is more than reasonable to expect higher than 50%.
It's still destined for number 3, and its performance will likely even climb for the next Top 500 list as the cluster is optimized. The final results will not be officially announced until a session on November 18 at Supercomputing 2003.
Now at 8.2 Tflop as of today (Oct 22) (Score:5, Informative)
Since yesterday's release at 7.41 Tflop, the G5 cluster has already increased almost a Tflop, and is now ahead of the current #3 MCR Linux cluster, and about 0.5 Tflop behind a new Itanium 2 cluster.
Actually, it's already at 8.2 Tflop today (Oct 22) (Score:3, Informative)
Not really (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Important items of note (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This is NOT all that surprising. (Score:2, Informative)
From: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31995.html [slashdot.org]
Also Important? (Score:3, Informative)
Anyone know how much merit there is to using Nmax (or N1/2) to compare different systems?
Re:This is NOT all that surprising. (Score:5, Informative)
87.5 NEC Earth-Simulator
67.8 Hewlett-Packard ASCI Q
69.0 Linux Networx MCR Linux Cluster Xeon
59.4 IBM ASCI White
73.2 IBM SP Power3
71.5 IBM xSeries Cluster
45.1 Fujitsu PRIMEPOWER HPC2500
79.2 Hewlett-Packard rx2600
72.0 Hewlett-Packard AlphaServer SC
77.7 Hewlett-Packard AlphaServer SC
Re:Big mac cluster.. (Score:4, Informative)
For consumers, food calories are really kilo-calories. So in this case, you coke has 300,000 physic-style calories.
If you look at a euopean food-labels, sometime you can seem them writen as kcal.
Also note: No Altivec Yet (Score:1, Informative)
Right now, the processor is behaving essentially as a G4 with a bigger fan and more memory addresses. Rumor has it that tweeking the compiler to abuse the Altivec unit may push the system above the theoretical limit in some calculations.
Re:Big mac cluster.. (Score:5, Informative)
A Calorie (the one used on food labels) is actually a kilocalorie. A Calorie is therefore 1000 calories. 1 calorie is basically the amount of heat needed to raise 1g of water 1 degree celsius. (A calorie is actually 1/100 of amount of heat needed to get 1 gram of water from 0 degrees C to 100 degrees C, but that works out almost the same.)
This is explained a bit on this web page. [reference.com]
So warming a 4 degrees C, 350mL Coke to 37 degrees C would take (37 - 4) * 350 = 11550 calories. This is 11.55 kilocalories or 11.55 Calories. The Coke has around 300 Calories in nutritive value therefore you would gain 300 - 11.55 = 288.45 Calories of energy from a 4 degrees C, 350mL can of Coke.
Scalability (Score:5, Informative)
The degree of loss is interesting, and suggests that their algorithm for distributing work needs tightening up on the high-end. Nonetheless, none of these are bad figures. When this story first broke, you'll recall the quote from the top500 list maintainer who pointed out that very few machines had high performance ratings, when they got into the large numbers of nodes.
I'd say these are extremely credible results, well worth the project team congratulating themselves. If the team could open-source the distribution algorithms, it would be interesting to take a look. I'm sure plenty of Mosix and BProc fans would love to know how to ramp the scaling up.
(The problem of scaling is why jokes about making a Beowulf cluster of these would be just dumb. At the rate at which performance is lost, two Big Macs linked in a cluster would run slower than a single Big Mac. A large cluster would run slower than any of the nodes within it. Such is the Curse that Amdahl inflicted upon the superscaler world.)
The problem of producing superscalar architectures is non-trivial. It's also NP-complete, which means there isn't a single solution which will fit all situations, or even a way to trivially derive a solution for any given situation. You've got to make an educated guess, see what happens, and then make a better informed educated guess. Repeat until bored, funding is cut, the world ends, or you reach a result you like.
This is why it's so valuable to know how this team managed such a good performance in their first test. Knowing how to build high-performing clusters is extremely valuable. I think it not unreasonable to say that 99% of the money in supercomputing goes into researching how to squeeze a bit more speed out of reconfiguring. It's cheaper to do a bit of rewiring than to build a complete machine, so it's a lot more attractive.
On the flip-side, if superscaling ever becomes something mere mortals can actively make use of, understand, and refine, we can expect to see vastly superior - and cheaper - SMP technology, vastly more powerful PCs, and a continuation of the erosion of the differences between micros, minis, mainframes and supercomputers.
It will also make packing the car easier. (* This is actually a related NP-complete problem. If you can "solve" one, you can solve the other.)
Re:Important items of note (Score:3, Informative)
The deadline for submission to the Nov 2003 Top 500 list was Oct. 1st (see call for proposals) [top500.org], so it has already passed. Any further improvements that they make to the scalability of the cluster should not be included. This is true for all the machines.
AltiVec won't help here (Score:5, Informative)
My feeling is that the ~40% efficiency seen on the larger scale run is an indication that either VA Tech spent very little time tuning the problem size or they didn't design their InfiniBand fabric to really handle 1100 nodes hammering away at Parallel Linpack. (Given that they've been extremely vague about how their IB network is structured, I fear it may be the latter.)
I doubt that's true, especially if they're using the IBM PPC compilers. The G4 has both significantly less memory bandwidth and a single double-precision-capable FPU, whereas the G5 is basically a single-core Power4 with an AltiVec unit in place of some cache. IBM's compilers (despite being a little wonky as far as naming and argument syntax) generally produce pretty fast code.Re:Important items of note, Efficiency (Score:2, Informative)
E=Ts/(n*Tp)
where Ts is the time to perform the computations serially, Tp is the the total time to perform the computations on the parallel machine and n is the number of parallel processing units.
It wouldn't take much to get a drastic improvement in efficiency simply by improving the time slightly for each parallel processer, especially for 1100 nodes.
I don't know how the benchmark program runs, but improving the communication time would imrove the efficiency as well.
It shouldn't take much to boost this by a few million flops.
Re:I/O bandwidth and latency (Score:3, Informative)
Grumble... Go take a look at Apple's description of the G5 architecture [apple.com] before spouting.. Here's the relevant lines:
Re:Big mac cluster.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:facts, please? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The Mac cluster is still on top per CPU (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, if you read back a little bit, you will find that the contract was awarded to Apple because they gave the best bang for the buck and it turns out that Dell optioned clusters would have been more expensive.
Re:A supercomputer by Any Other Name.... (Score:0, Informative)
you understand the definitions, you just cant read.
Re:I/O bandwidth and latency (Score:3, Informative)
The Powermac G5 uses up to 1GT/s, 64-bit wide version of IBM's Elastic I/O bus to connect each processor to a memory controller chip, which in turn has a pair of 64-bit wide DDR memory controllers. These buses are also shared for the processors I/O needs, which are passed over a 800MT/s, 16-bit wide hypertransport link to the PCI-X controller.
As for the width and speed of the Hypertransport links, Apple is very confusing on this front. In the document you linked they say "two bidirectional 16-bit, 800MHz HyperTransport interconnects for a maximum throughput of 3.2GB per second." In their PowerMac G5 Tech Specs PDF they say "two bidirectional 800MHz HyperTransport interconnects for a maximum throughput of 1.6 GBps." So which is it? And just what bandwidth are they measuring?
The PowerMac does indeed have two separate bi-directional Hypertransport links, the first connects the memory and processor controller chip to the PCI-X controller, and the second goes from the PCI-X controller to the extra I/O chips. It seems to me like the page you quoted is ADDING the bandwidth of the two daisy-chained hypertransport links, which would be TOTALLY incorrect.
My numbers came from the fact that a 16-bit (8-bits per direction) 800MT/s hypertransport link gets you only 800MB/s in each direction. Of course, it could really indeed be a "800MHz" hypertransport link, ie a 1600MT/s link since Hypertransport is a DDR protocol, but I highly doubt that since every other specification they mention just doubles the "MHz" number anytime they encounter a DDR bus (not that Apple is the only one to do this, Intel's "800MHz" bus runs at either 200MHz or 400MHz, depending on which clock you look at).
Re:Important items of note (Score:2, Informative)
I saw some indication that they were using a Fat-Tree topology, which would eliminate any bandwidth bottlenecks between switches, but the number of switches used didn't seem large enough for a fat-tree. But again, VT just hasn't, as of the last time I looked, released enough information about the cluster to tell.
BTW - My thesis work on Flat Neighborhood Networks (FNNs) [aggregate.org] used in the KLAT2 [aggregate.org] and KASY0 [aggregate.org] supercomputers is finding better ways to interconnect the nodes, given a particular set of network components.
Re:Price vs Preformance: Off an order of magnitude (Score:3, Informative)
Each processor, drive, and switch generates heat which is dissipated into the air. Untouched that heat accumulates and will kill the entire thing. With 1100 dual processor nodes running (and you can be they'll each be running at pretty close to full tilt) constantly that's a hell of a lot of heat that needs to be removed from the air.
It's really fixed this time!! (Score:3, Informative)
It connects to the CPU via the "Apple Processor Interface" NOT via hypertransport. It connects to it's memory controller at 1/2 the CPU speed, unlike Opteron and Athlon 64 which connect to the memory controller at FULL CPU SPEED.
Documentation:
developer.apple.com [apple.com]
apple.com [apple.com] (thanks for the link)
From the U3 Northbridge, G5 uses hypertransport to connect to the other peripherials at 3.2GB/s.
Opteron supports a hypertransport rate of 6.4 GB/s [tomshardware.com] directly from the CPU.
The Opteron 4xx and 8xx models also happen to have THREE of these hypertransport channels connected in a cross-bar configuration for SMP systems, giving EACH CPU a dedicated 6.4GB/s connection, rather than the G5 architecture which much share that connection (since there is only one U3 chip in a dually G5).
Support for PCI-X in the G5 by standard is a great thing. I wish more AMD systems contained it... I appreciate their native support of firewire and gigabit eithernet. But seriously... do you really want to argue architecture against a workstation class CPU? I'm a bit dissapointed by the Athlon 64, but the Athlon 64 FX (desktop version of Opteron) and Opteron lives up to most of my expectations and I expect to see more speeds out in the near future.
Stewey