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OS X Businesses Operating Systems Software Apple

Running Mac OS X Natively on Pegasos 151

Posted by pudge from the emulation-is-for-weenies dept.
Peter writes "The Pegasos is an interesting new platform, being one of the very few affordable non-Apple PowerPC systems. But to be a real alternative for me, I want it to run Mac OS X directly (without the need to use Mac-on-Linux or such). Have any of you Slashdot readers done this, and how much hacking did it take?" The Pegasos currently uses a G3/600, and ships with Debian Linux for PowerPC and MorphOS.
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Running Mac OS X Natively on Pegasos More

Running Mac OS X Natively on Pegasos

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  • I have no technical information to back me up, but knowing Apple, I doubt you'll get Mac OS X to work on it. Maybe I'm wrong.

    Of course, Darwin is another story. It should be a piece of cake to get it going.

    • Re:Doesn't seem likely (Score:4, Informative)

      by Gleng ( 537516 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @11:03AM (#6784567)
      Well, technical issues aside, it's forbidden in the OS X licence agreement to run the OS on non-Apple hardware. (disclaimer: not a Mac user, can't be 100% on the wording of the licence)

      Whether or not it's technically possible to find a workaround to boot it without an Apple BIOS is another matter. I'm sure it will be possible though somehow ;)

      • Re:Doesn't seem likely (Score:4, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 25, 2003 @12:05PM (#6785268)
        Not only does the Apple ROM need to be in place (or a substitute for it, such as MOL) OSX also needs to have drivers for the particular chipset the pegasos uses. drivers for the audio that the pegasos uses. drivers for the type of usb, ata, firewire, parallel and floppy controllers that the pegasos uses

        None of which are in OSX

        • Re:Doesn't seem likely (Score:1, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          You would be surprised what support is in OSX.

          run the following command:

          strings /mach_kernel | grep THREAD_STATE

          Interesting. Support for M68K, M88K, HP-PA, Sparc, PPC, i386, I860, M88110...

          Just what else do you want? Apple have OSX ready for FAR more than just the PPC boxes they're shooting with now.

        • Re:Doesn't seem likely (Score:2, Informative)

          by iJosh ( 119555 )
          Disregarding the Apple ROM NewWorld or OldWorld, the support can be added to OS X for the various chipsets found on a pegasos board. There is a widely used project XPostFacto [macsales.com] which includes specifically developed kernel modules to support OldWorld hardware will allow one to install and run OS X on an OldWorld machine. So I'm sure similar methods could be used to support the chipsets on the pegasos boards.
    • knowing Apple, I doubt you'll get Mac OS X to work on it

      Totally. Not only that, but I believe this is even against the license that Apple has for Mac OS X. I don't think you're legally allowed to run it on non-Apple hardward. (Someone do correct me if I'm wrong, though, as I'm too lazy to dig up my license.)

  • You do realize ... (Score:2, Informative)

    by kalidasa ( 577403 ) *
    That there's more to the "proprietary"/"closed" nature of the Mac platform than just the processor, right?

    • Re:You do realize ... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 25, 2003 @12:08PM (#6785301)
      Like what, for instance? Open Firmware? Nope, that's (as the name would imply) open. The RAM? Nope, standard. The disks? Standard. Heck, even the processor itself isn't proprietary, as this silly "Pegasos" thing demonstrates.

      A Mac's as open as any other computer. It's just that the parts are relatively rare. And also, of course, that you cannot legally run Mac OS X on anything other than Apple hardware. It's in the license agreement.

      Silly rabbit.
    • That there's more to the "proprietary"/"closed" nature of the Mac platform than just the processor, right?

      What is proprietary/closed about PowerPC? Compared to x86?

      Proprietary does not mean less common.
      • he didn't say PowerPC was proprietary. He said the Mac platform is. and it's true. you can't go out and buy a mac motherboard and build yourself a mac. some people might jump on that and say YES YOU CAN but that is still using apple's proprietary (meaning that you can't get them from a 3rd party company) parts salvaged from older machines, or reserved for repairs.
        • Yes he did say the processor was proprietary, or more precisely that it was part of the '"proprietary"/"closed" nature of the Mac platform,' whatever that means.

          That there's more to the "proprietary"/"closed" nature of the Mac platform than just the processor, right?

          you can't go out and buy a mac motherboard and build yourself a mac. some people might jump on that and say YES YOU CAN but that is still using apple's proprietary (meaning that you can't get them from a 3rd party company) parts salvaged

          • What I said was that there was more to the proprietary/closed nature of the platform than just the processor. This does not mean that the processor is proprietary - though by a strict definition, it is proprietary, to the PowerPC group of IBM, Moto, and Apple, though it may be available as a COTS part - if Intel tried to set up their own PPC fab plant, they'd be sued, no? What I was saying, though, is that the PLATFORM cannot be replicated using entirely Commercial Off the Shelf (COTS) Parts, the way that

            • What I said was that there was more to the proprietary/closed nature of the platform than just the processor. This does not mean that the processor is proprietary - though by a strict definition, it is proprietary, to the PowerPC group of IBM, Moto, and Apple, though it may be available as a COTS part - if Intel tried to set up their own PPC fab plant, they'd be sued, no?

              The hardware implementation is partially proprietary in that it is backed by patents which IBM and Moto enforce. The same is true of P4

              • The hardware implementation is partially proprietary in that it is backed by patents which IBM and Moto enforce. The same is true of P4. However the specs and ISA are published standards.

                "Proprietary" and "published" are not mutually exclusive.

                XServe? Are you kidding? For our purposes it is a toy.

                So you should be calling up Apple and telling them you'd like to buy a more robust server with OS X. Remember, APPLE IS A HARDWARE COMPANY. They do not make OS X just to make your experience with IBM server

                • The hardware implementation is partially proprietary in that it is backed by patents which IBM and Moto enforce. The same is true of P4. However the specs and ISA are published standards.

                  "Proprietary" and "published" are not mutually exclusive.

                  Asolutely correct. Proprietary means either held as a trade secret or exclusive by patent or copyright enforcement. I should have been more clear and said published standards not held proprietary via patent and copyright enforcement.

                  XServe? Are you kiddin

  • Apple ROM (Score:1, Redundant)

    by ChiefArcher ( 1753 )
    My guess is it won't work. Apple has always put a ROM on the motherboard that tells it how to boot Mac OS's (and what versions NOT to boot).

    This computer probably doesn't have the licensed Apple ROM and therefore will not boot any Mac OS without some serious hardware mods.

    ChiefArcher

    • Re:Apple ROM (Score:5, Informative)

      by SewersOfRivendell ( 646620 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @11:13AM (#6784657)
      Mac OS X doesn't rely on the toolbox ROM, though. What it probably _does_ rely on is a version of OpenFirmware compatible enough with the version implemented on Apple's motherboards.

    • Re:Apple ROM (Score:5, Informative)

      by wchin ( 6284 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @12:50PM (#6785665)

      Wow... let's get up to date.

      Apple's New World ROM based machines which have been shipping for quite some time now (think B&W G3 and the original iMac) are closer to CHRP type systems. A basic OpenFirmware ROM is what is on the motherboard. The rest of the old "Macintosh ROM" is loaded from disk for Mac OS

      For more information, see: Apple Technical Note TN1167, The Mac ROM Enters a New World [apple.com].

      Darwin is roughly equivalent to the Mac OS X CoreOS and one would have to write a new platform support code and relevant drivers. One could copy over the parts from a Mac OS X CD after getting Darwin to work. However, to be legal, one would have to obtain a license from Apple that is different from the license that is on the current retail product. But it's not the ROM.

    • Look here [magneticsystemsnyc.com] to see MacOS 9 running on the Pegasos - apparently OS X works fine too. AFAIK, the Pegasos does not use an Apple ROM.

  • MorphOS on Apple hardware (like iBook2) (Score:5, Interesting)

    by henrik ( 98 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @11:08AM (#6784602)
    Is it possible to run this OS on Apple hardware? There seems to be no Pegasos laptops available (yet?).

  • OpenDarwin is being ported... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AlphaOne ( 209575 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @11:20AM (#6784750)
    Since OpenDarwin is being ported to the platform, I'd be inclined to believe that just plain Darwin (MacOS X) would NOT run on the hardware as-is and therefore you can't run MacOS X on the system.

    When the OpenDarwin port is complete, you *may* be able to install MacOS X on a drive then overlay OpenDarwin on top of that and then be able to boot it onto the clone.

    Remember that Macs use Open Firmware to boot, so this clone would need either Open Firmware, something compliant to the spec, or hooks to make it work (or some combination of all three).

    Considering the cheapest 12" PowerBooks start at around $1200, I'd say the Apple premium isn't too bad. Granted, that's WAY more than these clones, but then you don't have to deal with the fuss of trying to shim MacOS X onto a non-native platform.

  • Pegasos - the ultimate geek machine (Score:5, Informative)

    by nickos ( 91443 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @11:31AM (#6784879)
    For those of you who don't know, the company behind Pegasos is focused on creating the ultimate "geek" machine. A number of Pegasos machines have been provided to various alternative OS developments, and it seems that the alternative OS market is a good niche that should allow this company to thrive.

    from www.pegasosppc.com/operating_systems.php [pegasosppc.com]
    "The following Operating Systems are in final stages of being ported to the Pegasos Platform and should be completed soon: AROS, Gentoo, Knoppix, NewOS, OpenBSD, QNX
    The following Operating Systems are in the early stages of being ported to the Pegasos Platform: AmigaDE, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBeOS, OpenDarwin, Zynot
    The following Operating Systems can be run on the Pegasos through emulation: Amiga OS 3.x, Mac OS 9, Mac OS X"

    Personally speaking, as a fan of silent machines and a user of a PC that exclusively runs Linux, I am very tempted by this machine. I don't have to worry about the company going bust because by running Linux, I can easily switch hardware platforms should I need to, and I can play with Morphos and all this Mac stuff too.

  • Theoretically speaking... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rufo ( 126104 ) <`moc.zehcnasofur' `ta' `ofur'> on Monday August 25, 2003 @12:04PM (#6785249)
    ...Apple's Darwin *is* open source... if you could somehow hack the Darwin kernel to recognize and boot on that hardware, then it should be able to work.

    The problem is, that would probably take a serious amount of work, not to mention the possible legal snares with Apple - I don't know what the terming of the APSL is, but it may not allow such modifications. But I don't see it as being an impossible task.

    • Re:Theoretically speaking... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Trurl's Machine ( 651488 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @02:45PM (#6786732) Journal
      Apple's Darwin *is* open source... if you could somehow hack the Darwin kernel to recognize and boot on that hardware, then it should be able to work. The problem is, that would probably take a serious amount of work, not to mention the possible legal snares with Apple

      Frankly, I don't see such possibility. APSL [apple.com] allows you to modify Darwin code in a manner quite similar to the GPL - you can modify all you want, provided that you will distribute the modified code with all due copyright notices and disclamiers and will clearly mark all your amendments.

      The important parts of the APSL are:

      You may modify Covered Code and use, reproduce, display, perform, internally distribute within Your organization, and Externally Deploy Your Modifications and Covered Code, for commercial or non-commercial purposes, provided that in each instance. You also meet all of these conditions: (...) cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that You changed the files and the date of any change (...) You must make Source Code of all Your Externally Deployed Modifications either available to those to whom You have Externally Deployed Your Modifications, or publicly available.

      Please don't confuse Darwin with MacOS X. Darwin is free (as in beer and actually as in GPL) but Darwin itself is nothing but Yet Another Un*x Clone. MacOS X is proprietary and that's the one with all that eye-candy and iApps :-)
  • ...Would be this is a g3 (can be a g4 though in a BTO) and Aqua's windowing is pretty processor intensive. If the video card is up to snuff that may offset the demands of Aqua.

    • Re:One big problem... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by questamor ( 653018 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @01:05PM (#6785824)
      I've known more than one person with a dual 400/500 G4 who's quite stunned with the performance of the iBook. Faster for many common user things. That's an 800MHz G3 compared to the Dual G4 (admittedly a lot older G4)

      The G3s can still hold their own with OSX very well, as long as the surrounding architecture is up to snuff.
      • Although the Dual 450 G4 is no slouch either - we have one running Final Cut Pro 3 very happily in a production environment.

        Wouldn't give up my 600Mhz iBook for love nor money though.
      • Not the cpu in this case. A newer iBook will certainly have a Quartz Extreme compatible gpu, while the older G4 macs may not. Quartz Extreme support makes the difference in feel between the systems - it really is a big speed boost for drawing stuff on the screen. Check the model and amount of memory in the graphics cards before you assume the performance difference is due to the cpu.

  • Pegasos Motherboard Cost = $500 !!! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 25, 2003 @12:26PM (#6785463)
    I am not sure what the obsession with people prepared to spend an unlimited amount to avoid buying from Apple

    From the UK Pegasos site [1] the bare motherboard appears to be $500 which seems somewhat high for a 600MHz G3 - adding disc/memory/peripherals + operating system this doesnt look like a very good deal given that I can by an 800MHz G4 eMac complete with OS-X for $799.

    [1] http://www.pegasos-uk.com/english/products_pegasos .html

    • Re:Pegasos Motherboard Cost = $500 !!! (Score:5, Informative)

      by Parsec ( 1702 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @01:04PM (#6785810) Homepage Journal

      Or a used iBook from PowerMax [powermax.com]: a white G3/500 is about about $839.

      If you are a student, you can get the eMac for $749. Or checking Apple's refurbished deals [apple.com] there is a refurbished G3/700 iBook for $799 (non-educational price).

      • Yikes!!
        That's a bunch for an iBook. I don't work for any of the following companies but I do keep an eye on the used Mac marketplace. Ebay is not a buyers market btw.
        As of this writing Smalldog [smalldog.com] has an 800MHz iBook for $899.
        Macofalltrades [macofalltrades.com] usually has good deals on portables and desktop Macs.
        MacResQ [macresq.com] has good deals occasionally(sp?).
        I would certainly put PowerMax [powermax.com] at the bottom of the list pricewise. They want $729.00 for a G4 400 desktop [powermax.com]!!
        Macofalltrades wants $500 for a better equipped G4 450 [macofalltrades.com]
        Note: direc

        • Thanks for the links... I'll have to watch for a good deal for my home server (will be a FW iBook w/combo drive).

          I suppose, if you wanted to experiment, and possibly upgrade later, the Pegasos board could be good. But if you wanted to run MacOS X inexpensively, the point of these comments is that's probably not the most cost effective way to do it. And, in fact, you could get a whole lot of mobility in comparison for a similar price.

    • Once it's done, and proven it CAN be done, it can be done for cheaper.

    • Ever shop for BeBox's [ebay.com] on eBay?

    • not completely true (Score:2, Informative)

      by aliquis ( 678370 )
      Well, this is partly true. The Pegasos price was $499, but less than 1000 was produced, and in the end you could get one (motherboard and cpu) for $299 if you signed up phoenix [phinixi.com].

      The old pegasos computer isn't produced longer and probably out of stock everythere. But the pegasos2 is supposed to get released during september and will future a much better price/performance ratio since it will be sold for the same price ($499) but are very likely to have three gigabit ethernet ports, PCI-X, 1-1.4GHz G4 and so o

  • Just Don't Get It (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tres ( 151637 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @02:53PM (#6786851) Homepage
    It's not that I don't get that the x86 is a dinosaur architecture, and there needs to be an exit strategy, but it seems to me that the days of shade-tree computer building with expensive proprietary OS's is about over. If you are looking to support Linux on PPC, then hats off to you; Linux provides a quality software analog to the best-of-breed computer componentry out there. But trying to graft OS X onto Pegasos is the exact wrong way to go; no one wins.

    Apple loses money spent on unsupported hardware. Linux loses the time that would otherwise be invested making Linux run better on PPC, and the buyer loses the support, service and integration that Apple and Linuxprovide.

    I guess maybe it's that some people are somehow angry with Apple for not providing the kind of craphouse of componentry that the x86 world has been for the last seven years.

    And I guess when you approach a computer as a bundle of hardware components, then all it's ever going to be is a bundle of hardware that does stuff. When you look as a computer as the amalgamation of hardware, software, support and service, then you start seeing exactly what I don't get.

    Apple provides the support, service and integration on Apple hardware. Linux provides support, service and integration on supported hardware. No one provides support, service or integration with OS X on Pegasos. Even those that would try could not publicly support it for fear of legal reprisal.

    As more people change their idea of what a computer is--from a bunch of hardware that does stuff, to a sum total of hardware, software support, service and their integration--need for cheap off-the-wall components will die out. Microsoft is going to be at the front of this push, making systems like the X-Box for office workers everywhere.

    • Re:Just Don't Get It (Score:2, Insightful)

      by zpok ( 604055 )
      I don't know, some people enjoy goofing around, installing this and that, soldering their computer to pieces, attaching freezers to dangerously overclocked processors ...

      If you fall into that category, nothing you - aptly - stated applies.

      And then getting OS X to run on a slow, non-babtized-build-your-own-and-run-whatever-you- l ike-as-long-as-it's-obscure machine suddenly makes sense, kind of, erm...

      Know a guy who's always tinkering with everything, his macs and pc's are always in a state of undress, ve
    • Why did the man hack the computer?

      Because it was there.

  • Without Apple's very tightly sealed and not-at-all-licensed Open Firmware, you are S.O.L. It's a nice idea but I just don't see it being possible without some serious hacks to the hardware and/or Darwin. Blood, sweat, and tears.

    • Re:Open Firmware Needed (Score:5, Interesting)

      by TotallyUseless ( 157895 ) <totNO@SPAMmac.com> on Monday August 25, 2003 @04:03PM (#6787683) Homepage Journal
      "Open Firmware is processor and system independent boot firmware."

      Hello, if you visit this site [sun.com] you might learn a little bit about Open Firmware... especially the Open part

      • Wrong. www.openfirmware.org details much more than the site you referenced. Among those details:

        "The IEEE-1275 Open Firmware standard was not reaffirmed by the OFWG and has been officially withdrawn by IEEE. Unfortunately, this means it is unavailable from the IEEE."

        Also, the standards are there as "Open" but Apple's implementation is not for anyone but Apple to use. You can go to their dev site and dig all you want. You will not find Apple's OF for you to use on a Pegasus board. Just because it's Ope

        • Re:Open Firmware Needed (Score:3, Informative)

          by downix ( 84795 )
          You also neglect to pay attention to other aspects of that site.

          While yes, Apple's implimentation of Open Firmware is Apple's and Apple's alone, other versions of Open Firmware do exist, and following the OF spec, an OS that runs on OF runs on all flavors pretty much the same.

          The Pegasos comes with it's own OF, called SmartFirmware, and it runs quite nicely.
          • Ahem. Then you show us how to get OS X to run on SmartFirmware. It won't work. My whole point has been and still is that you need Apple's OF. Not Pegasos'. OS X will not run on SmartFirmware.
            • OS X runs on MOL, and MOL doesn't include Apple's OF, so it must be possible.
              • If it was possible, Apple would already have put limitations to keep them from doing it. Apple does not want you to put OS X on a Pegasus board. Therefore, my money is on the fact that it is not possible. I'll eat crow when someone shows one of those machines running OS X native. I'm not too good to not be willing to swallow my pride if I'm wrong. All I'm saying is my money says it's not possible. At least not without doing something "illegal" in Apple's eyes.

  • Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dhobbit ( 152517 ) on Monday August 25, 2003 @04:05PM (#6787708)
    Maybe I just don't get it but why would you want to run MacOSX on the Pegasos board? Don't get me wrong I love the idea of a PPC board and I'll be getting one as soon as I get a job. But I'll be getting it to replace the piece of crap x86 board in my Linux box.

    Yes, I'll admit I'm a mac user and I love my powerbook. I personally find OSX to by the greatest OS ever, with OpenBSD and Linux taking a very close second. And for me this is where the Pegasos fits perfectly, I can now run all my system on PPC. A nice PPC OpenBSD server, serving files, web, and email to my OSX laptop and my PPC Linux desktop (until I can afford my G5).

    I personally can't wait for the day when I can add "x86 free" to my "Microsoft free since 1998", tag-line. A perfect world is one where I don't have to use MS and/or x86 for anything!

    If you want OSX then help Apple and buy Apple hardware. If Apple can't sell hardware then they don't write software and then we're stuck with that nasty Windows UI (and just for the flame bait I'm lumping Gnome and KDE into this, since they can't seem to come up with an original UI design) And just to piss everyone off I'll even throw Apple under the bus and point out that the "New and Improved" finder under 10.3 really looks like crap.

    • And just to piss everyone off I'll even throw Apple under the bus and point out that the "New and Improved" finder under 10.3 really looks like crap.

      I have read that the Finder in 10.3 can be made to look just like the Finder in 10.2, if one desires it. The only difference is that it will be metallic instead of aqua, which should be fixable by editing the application settings with Interface Builder (included free in the Apple developer tools), or using a third-party metal UI removing utility (such as Met [versiontracker.com]

      • The Finder is a Carbon application, so those tricks won't work. Its main browser window is not a .nib.
    • What is this hype about PPC?

      I know it is a RISC processor but so are every processor. Todays "x86" are just an IA32 translator around a RISC core. IA64 is the logical next step: drop IA32 and x86, use the die for real calculations and leave the scheduling to the compiler. It doesnt get more RISC than that does it?

      The rest of the system has no legacy shit either as I can see. Well BIOS might be a bit stoneage.

      So what is this fuss about x86 beeing bad?
  • I've been hearing about pegasos for ages, but I clicked on the aussie purchase link and the US purchase link and all they give are general specs. no way to buy. no release dates. no nothing.

    is this vapourware? is there a release date? have I missed something?

    I read someone mentioned it was going to be US$500.. that's just way too steep for a board. but if it comes down to PC mobo prices, then it's looking promising.

    running OS-X on it is a lame idea because apple's machines do it so well. yes, they're exp
    • The revision 1.0a boards are sold out. Revision 2 is slated for unveiling in a matter of weeks, with sales to resume shortly afterwards. Rev 2 upgrades the RAM to DDR, adds gigabit ethernet, and a few other nicities.

      It retails for $299.
    • how many people here are old amiga freaks?

      put your hands up :)

      *puts hand up* and I wouldn't go back if you paid me: I've been using OS X (on some excellent Apple hardware) for two years now (which if you do the math, makes me a pretty die-hard Amigan: I suck with it until 2001! upgrading both the hard and software all that time) And while there are a couple of things about the 'mig that I do miss, on ballance OS X and Apple's hardware knock it firmly into the history books from an end user perspectiv
  • Does anyone know for real what type of OS this is? Is it just another UNIX based OS (with Kernel, shell, accounts and all the repertoire) or something completely of its own like classic Mac OS (pre X) and Window$$? Call me ignorant if you may but it's the first time I've ever heard of it and I went through the web site but couldn't find much information. So, what gives?
  • Althought the specs isn't completely out yet it's supposed to future a Marvell Discovery II chipset, 3 gigabit ethernet ports, PCI-X among others and a G4 in the 1-1.4GHz range for only $499 which I think is very affordable, even compared to x86 machines. The machine was supposed to get released under September and so far I haven't heard any other dates. Hopefully Genesi releases the final specs very soon.
  • Some ppl managed it to build an OpenDarwin-Kernel that allows OS X to run on non-G3/G4/G5 macs. So there is a good chance to make it possible to run on Pegasos
  • It was impossible to run Mac OS on BeBoxes which used the same Motorola 60X's as Macs at the time. AFAIK, Mac OS absolutely *will not run* unless Apple blesses the BIOS or something similar. In other words, it won't ever run on a montherboard that doesn't come from them. PPC != Apple.

  • If you can get Darwin to run.... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by putaro ( 235078 ) on Wednesday August 27, 2003 @12:55AM (#6802443) Journal
    If you can get Darwin up and running, Mac OS X will run. I've replaced the OS X kernel with a kernel compiled from the Darwin sources (on a Mac, mind you) and it all works just fine. The trick will getting all of the drivers to work properly. Objective-C, anyone?

    There's no magic Mac ROMs anymore. That's been dead for so long it's ridiculous. I used to work on the OS team at Apple - I _know_.

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