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Apple Businesses

ComputerWare/Elite Chain Throws In The Towel 144

Posted by pudge from the free-as-in-computers dept.
An anonymous reader writes "ComputerWare, a ComputerLand-like chain of stores specializing in Apple computers, went out of business in 2001. Thinking he sees an opportunity for expansion, the guy who owns Elite Computers, the long-time independent Apple computer store literally across the street from Apple HQ in Cupertino, bought the CW name and leased and reopened the SF Bay Area stores as 'ComputerWare by Elite Computers.' In 2003, Mr. Elite realized the reason the original ComputerWare owners got out -- Apple's engaging in 'unfair competition' -- and announced he is closing the chain along with his original store."
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ComputerWare/Elite Chain Throws In The Towel More

ComputerWare/Elite Chain Throws In The Towel

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  • Colored Logo (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bjb ( 3050 ) * on Friday May 23, 2003 @08:40AM (#6022825) Homepage Journal
    I remember seeing this store the one time I drove to Apple in Cupertino. It was my first time in California (I'm a NYC native), and while driving down from San Francisco through the Valley, I was given the choice of one place I could stop and be a geek for a few minutes. Cupertino. Apple.

    I was so thrilled to be there, though I had just missed the 5pm closing time of the gift shop, so I could only drive around in an infinate loop ;-).

    Anyway, I remember seeing this Apple dealer across the street (well, go out the front of the complex, make two rights, and make a sharp left across the street). They had a large colored Apple logo (the old "rainbow" style, which I am sentimental for), even though every other Apple symbol around was the new metal/steel/aqua or whatever they call it. I found that strangely comforting that even though Apple changed their logo, their old one was always staring them right back into the doorway of the gift shop. I was glad they didn't change their sign.

    Anyway, silly nostalgia and memories.. go back to your own business..

    • Colored Logo? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It's African American logo, you insensitive clod!

      Note: I am not making fun of black people. I am making fun of PC people.
    • "so I could only drive around in an infinate loop"

      You know, I've always wondered about the name "Infinite Loop" because it rather seems to me that ALL loops are infinite...

    • Anyway, I remember seeing this Apple dealer across the street (well, go out the front of the complex, make two rights, and make a sharp left across the street). They had a large colored Apple logo (the old "rainbow" style, which I am sentimental for), even though every other Apple symbol around was the new metal/steel/aqua or whatever they call it. I found that strangely comforting that even though Apple changed their logo, their old one was always staring them right back into the doorway of the gift shop.

  • ComputerWare (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Stigmata669 ( 517894 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @08:58AM (#6022898)
    was in trouble long before the Apple retail stores opened. They weren't making enough money to even keep their Palo Alto store open... It's a Radio Shack now and has been for a few years.

    Still, it's sad to see small retailers go.

    • Re:ComputerWare (Score:4, Interesting)

      by chia_monkey ( 593501 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @09:54AM (#6023297) Journal
      Sadly enough, it doesn't really surprise me. I lived down the street from the Capitola store and was always annoyed that they didn't have a website. A simple thing like that could have helped draw customers to that location instead of having to drive over to the Apple Store over the Hill. It WAS fun having new Apple stuff within walking distance. They just didn't have decent business sense.

    • Re:ComputerWare (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Ioldanach ( 88584 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @09:54AM (#6023304)
      was in trouble long before the Apple retail stores opened.

      From the article, I can't comment on what things were like before Apple opened up its retail stores, but the business was purchased by a company doing pretty well until they touched this. If the allegations are correct, and Apple shipped product to its own stores significantly in advance of competitors and then used registration to lure customers to the branded stores, then this smacks of anti-competetive behavior. Apple may not have a monopoly on desktops, but they do have a monopoly on Apple products. By selling their products both in their own storefronts and to competing storefronts, they need to be treating both as equal stores. Otherwise, there could be legal repercussions, like this one.

      Now, I'm not convinced yet, but I want to see how this pans out.

      • Re:ComputerWare (Score:5, Funny)

        by rograndom ( 112079 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @10:58AM (#6023820) Homepage
        Apple may not have a monopoly on desktops, but they do have a monopoly on Apple products.

        Really? Somebody should do something about this. I mean, it's not like Dell has a monopoly on Dell computers or anything. er, wait...

      • Re:ComputerWare (Score:4, Insightful)

        by bpbond ( 246836 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @11:31AM (#6024076) Homepage
        >Apple may not have a monopoly on desktops, but they do
        >have a monopoly on Apple products. By selling their
        >products both in their own storefronts and to competing
        >storefronts, they need to be treating both as equal stores.
        >Otherwise, there could be legal repercussions, like this one.

        What?!? By this definition of "monopoly," every company has a monopoly on all its own products. This makes no sense. What legal repercussions? Unless Apple signed an explicit contract with these guys, promising equal access to their products, why shouldn't they be able to ship first to their stores, for example? I'd certainly like to know about the grounds of Thomas Armes' "unfair competition" suit.

        Could someone with more legal knowledge than I comment on this?

        • Re:ComputerWare (Score:2, Insightful)

          by TheRaven64 ( 641858 )
          Well, I believe the US has a little law called 'anti-trust', which states that you can not use a monoploy in one area (such as producing Apple hardware) to gain a monopoly in a new area (such as selling Apple hardware). I seem to recall a case involving a software company a little while ago using this law...
          • But in this case, producing it and selling it are the very same thing. Apple computers doesn't produce apples for free so that stores can sell them --- they produce to sell, either through the web, Apple stores, or 3rd parties.

            Not sure what case you are speaking of, but MS was using monopoly advantage to keep other OSs off the shelves and off the shipped harddrives of manufacturers. They weren't giving MS stores a product advantage over 3rd party MS vendors. Geez.

            TurboD

      • Re:ComputerWare (Score:3, Interesting)

        by happystink ( 204158 )
        They definitely do grab all the best stuff for themselves when there's a shortage, I actually bought the imac I'm writing on now from an apple store 3 hours away from me a few weeks after it came out because it was the only place that had any in a 3 hour radius. All the local stores were saying they wouldn't have any for weeks and there were articles on cnet, etc. about the shortages because some retailers accused Apple of only shipping them to the Apple stores. So, I phoned the nearest Apple store, and sur

    • Re:ComputerWare (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 23, 2003 @12:10PM (#6024501)
      My problem with their complaint is they're only putting forward one possible explanation for their failure. The Apple Stores are a stunning example of what to do right in a store. Computerware in the last few years have been run by a dodgy unhelpful group of people not interested in customer service, or bringing people into their store. That makes all the difference, even before issues like stock availability. I doubt it would matter how Apple handled them, they would have went out of business just as quickly the way they were being run.

      Truth be known, if I were Apple I'd want stores like ComputerWare to be as far away from my name as possible, they certainly don't do it a service.
      • My problem with their complaint is they're only putting forward one possible explanation for their failure. The Apple Stores are a stunning example of what to do right in a store. Computerware in the last few years have been run by a dodgy unhelpful group of people not interested in customer service, or bringing people into their store.

        Admittedly I don't have personal experience with them, but being an Apple VAR (or selling their products in general) right now is a pretty bad experience all around. You h
        • I think this the unfortunate dark side to the transition that Apple _had_ to make. At some point Apple realized they had the Lexus of the computing world, and that was what was going to sell the product. Unfortunately, their VARs were not all up to the task of selling and supporting the pricey machines. In response, Apple decided they had to bring the dealers up --- and the only way they could do it is to own the dealerships too.

          The darkside is that unfortunately some of us are or know people who are Apple
          • I think this the unfortunate dark side to the transition that Apple _had_ to make. At some point Apple realized they had the Lexus of the computing world, and that was what was going to sell the product. Unfortunately, their VARs were not all up to the task of selling and supporting the pricey machines. In response, Apple decided they had to bring the dealers up --- and the only way they could do it is to own the dealerships too.

            I don't think I buy that analogy anymore- only in the sense that Apple doesn

    • Re:ComputerWare (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 23, 2003 @01:14PM (#6025138)
      I can't comment on the contract issues between Apple and Elite since I have no knowledge of them but I think there are many other factors at work in this situation that would lead to the closing of the Elite stores.

      First, Computerware went out of business once before. They had a reputation of having helpful, well informed, sales people but very high prices in an extemely competitive market. Typically, they would sell ALL of their products at MSRP, this includes video cards, USB hubs, software, etc. You gotta keep in mind that they were a retailer that had several Fry's Electronics, CompUSA, and a MicroCenter, all less than ten minutes away in any direction from many of their stores (except Capitola). Each of these companies sells Apple computers and has a huge selection of peripherals and software, many work around the Apple MSRP by offering specials on other products when you buy an Apple computer. Computerware did not and subsequently went out of business.

      Elite then bought out Computerware and implemented EXACTLY the same business model. Add to that the extremely high rent for commercial property in silicon valley over the last few years and you have a recipe for miniscule profit margins. To their credit, Elite re-hired many of the old Computerware staff but the high prices made it a place to buy only as a last resort. I remember going in there to buy a Radeon 9000 video card. They insisted on selling it at full retail so I went and bought it at Microcenter on sale and saved over $40. On another occassion, I went to buy a second battery for my G4 laptop and they had it sticker priced at $149 and marked down to $139 when I can buy it anywhere else (not just Apple) for $129 and this was after they had already announced that they were going out of business.

      I am still unhappy to see them go since I think that fewer Apple retailers, even if they are high priced, is a bad thing but I don't think that the owner can blame Apple for all of these factors. He took a gamble on a failed chain, implemented the same sales plan, and expected a different result.

  • Just so I know. (Score:3, Funny)

    by chumpieboy ( 257469 ) <esojka AT spamcop DOT net> on Friday May 23, 2003 @09:32AM (#6023151)
    ::ready to burn karma::

    I know this is one man's claim and all that, but I wanted to prepare myself for the rest of the thread.

    Just so I know:
    Is it OK on Slashdot for a computer company to engage in unfair business practices as long as it's name doesn't begin with an "M" and end with an "icrosoft"?

    • Re:Just so I know. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Ioldanach ( 88584 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @10:01AM (#6023356)
      Just so I know:

      Is it OK on Slashdot for a computer company to engage in unfair business practices as long as it's name doesn't begin with an "M" and end with an "icrosoft"?

      Some may think so, but I certainly don't. The thing you're overlooking is that the usual company we bash for unfair business practices is not only notorious but infamous for using them, so when a new instance is announced we don't feel the need to check over the facts yet again before rendering our judgement. They've used up all the chances we're willing to give them.

      In this case, we have a business not really known for unfair business practices. They may have done a few unfair things in the past, I really don't recall, but most businesses have. Nobody's perfect. The point here is that I don't recall them, and therefore they don't have the reputation of being rabidly monopolistic.

      What it boils down to is simple: I don't recall Apple doing this sort of thing recently, therefore I'm willing to reserve judgement until I see how they respond.

      • Re:Just so I know. (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        I agree that it would be foolish to think that it's okay for Apple to use unfair business practices and bash M$ for the same thing. However, the Elite comments must be taken in context. The assertions made by Elite may be inaccurate. Even if they are accurate, there may be reasons that Apple did not ship as much product in as timely of a basis as they did to their Apple stores. Such reasons might include payment history, past sales experiences with selling their leading-edge products at the Elite locati
    • Just so I know:
      Is it OK on Slashdot for a computer company to engage in unfair business practices as long as it's name doesn't begin with an "M" and end with an "icrosoft"?

      In a word, yes.

      Seriously though, at the moment we (that is to say those of us who are me) like Apple, because they manage to use a vertical monopoly to provide a damn good end user product. By eliminating some of their retail competition they are able to increase their vertical monopoly, and in theory provide an even better service

      • Not buying a Windows PC is harder? Let's apply your statement "this kind of behaviour is okay because if you don't like it you can just not buy a Mac". If you don't like PCs why not buy a Mac? There are alternatives out there to both MS and PCs. That is why I don't think MS is a monopoly. There always has been an alternative.

  • Survival Tactics (Score:4, Insightful)

    by nycroft ( 653728 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @10:49AM (#6023732) Homepage
    From the article: Mr. Armes says Apple delivered new products to its own Apple stores as much as a month before they would ship any to him. "We didn't get as much product as the Apple stores, and we got it later than the Apple stores," Mr. Armes says.

    I don't see anything unusual about this. Apple has very strict price controls on its products. The reason why it puts them in its Apple Stores first could be to get the product out there in the market in case other retailers balk at the high prices.

    We can be sure that Macs will probably never be seen at places like Staples and Office Max because they would not be allowed to put the product on sale. This is why when we do see Macs at larger stores such as CompUSA and catalogs such as MacZone, there are always special offers of extra stuff like printers ans scanners and the like. That's the only way for an Apple retailer to compete with the Apple Store.

    It's not Apple's fault. Steve Jobs didn't force "Mr. Elite" to become an Apple retailer in the first place. Every type of "dealership" has its caveats because it has to follow a certain set of rules governed by the manufacturer of the product it sells. I say: "buy one directly from Apple's website." I bought my 17-inch PowerBook there. I was fast, easy, and I got my extra RAM put in by an Apple technician! What more could you want?
    • Your "noone forced him" argument would make more sense if he was threatening to sue or something. Instead, he's just pointing something out: Apple is killing the independent retail outlets by hogging the computers themselves when there is a shortage, which there often is with new apple products. It's not in case retailers balk at pricing or anything like that, it's to make more money by selling it at their own stores. Legitimate business practice? Maybe. Lame considering they are screwing the retailers who
      • Perhaps the near-constant media hostility towards any and everything Apple does/doesn't do contributes greatly to this issue.

        If Apple announces a new product/model, everyone looks first at the Apple Store to have it in stock. If Apple shipped limited supplies of a new line to independant Apple dealer's, and not to their own stores, clueless market analysts would drive their stock price into the toilet claiming they can't deliver what they've just announced.

        To avoid this, it would make sense to be sure t

      • why are Apple competing with their own dealers like that, by grabbing all the hot product right away

        Because most dealers don't know how to market or sell Apple product - let's face it they haven't been doing a good job for the last decade.

        Apple is taking things into their own hands - we know Apple sucks at marketing, just seems that Elite/CW sucked more.

        Would you be happy if your future depended on these guys?

  • ...their business... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 23, 2003 @11:09AM (#6023908)
    Apple products are developed and produced by Apple. It's their business (literally) and if they want to sell their products in Apple stores only, they are free to do so. You can argue it's not fair or whatever, but it is up to Apple to decide who sells their stuff. So, in a way, they mind their own business.
    • It's their business (literally) and if they want to sell their products in Apple stores only, they are free to do so.

      1) That is generally not the case here. At least not when it comes to Microsoft

      2) Where exactly does this consumer friendly reputation of Apple comes from? They sell overpriced computers, to unsuspected novices. They let their Apple ][ user base hang without an upgrade path, they screwed the Apple-licensed clone-makers and they now screw their distributors. There's friendly for you....
    • ...and if Microsoft doesn't want to give their new API's out to Netscape, so be it...

  • Can't save everyone, one victim better than two (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AHumbleOpinion ( 546848 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @01:50PM (#6025465) Homepage
    Anyone take any life saving courses? Sometimes you can't save the person in trouble and it's better to have one victim than two (person in trouble and would-be rescuer). It sucks. It's not fair. Welcome to the real world. I think we are in a similar situation here.

    I know some true believers are going to get upset but face it; Apple is in a life and death struggle. They are not as close to the edge as they were in previous years but "beleaguered" status is never that far away. The Apple Stores, IMHO, are an important part of Apple's long term strategy. Maximize profits by cutting out the middle man. As Apple is forced to cut its profit margins this becomes critical. On top of this these stores are incredibly important marketing tools. They are very strategically located and the couple I've visited always seem to have a lot of foot traffic. People may not be buying but they are getting the sense that Apple is a viable option today and not just a historical footnote. These stores are far more valuable than super bowl ads.

    If it is necessary for Apple to screw small independent dealers in order to ensure its long term survival then so be it. If Apple were to become further marginalized and lose its image as a viable alternative these dealers would get screwed anyway.

    • Re:Can't save everyone, one victim better than two (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      There's no illegality here, but it smells because Elite and ComputerWare were loyal retailers. Apple computers were their primary business, not a sideline. They stuck with Apple during the 'dark days'. There might not have been an Apple for Jobs to return to were it not for the sales contributions of these stores and others like them.

      Punishing someone who has been loyal to you for a long time, even if they are now something of an inconvenience to you, is bad form, bad karma and a disincentive to further

  • Everything's Apple's Fault When Things Go Wrong (Score:5, Interesting)

    by GurgleJerk ( 568712 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @02:11PM (#6025665)
    I happen to live within just a block of one of the ComputerWare stores and have watched it go out of business twice. The store did fair business. In visiting, there had been no time in the past several years that I was the only one in the store, and it was often crowded. If they didn't make money, it's because it was run poorly. They were always busy. Another local Mac shop had/has the same amount of foot traffic and remains open.

    But let me also tell you a story of another place where I've lived, the Pacific Northwest. My family purchased three Apples (IIc, Mac SE, IIgs) over time from a chain called "The Computer Store." which has been in business there since the early eighties, and now is called "The Mac Store." They did a great job of presenting Mac in a clean and professional retail environment with knowledgeable salespeople. They probably still do.

    The point is, that in opening retail stores, Apple initially opened bay area stores in Santa Clara and Palo Alto. That was the original plan, and it was fair. They put one near Apple's campus in Cupertino and another in a well-travelled shopping district in an affluent town.

    But - they didn't put any stores in Oregon or Washington. Why? The Mac Store chain is doing very well selling Apple products, with satisfied customers. There was no great need for Apple to go into those areas. Apple just recently opened a Seattle-area store, and will likely go into Portland at some point. But they are being very careful not to but The Mac Store in trouble. They couldn't be more respectful of The Mac Stores' ability to stay in business.

    In the Bay Area, ComputerWare was the only Apple chain, and when they went out of business (the first time), Apple suddenly a store into Emeryville (near Pixar HQ) and announced Burlingame and Walnut Creek stores. It was a solid, sensible move to retain customers. All the sudden here comes Elite, which had never given Apple much trouble before, and they spend tons of cash to rebuild the ComputerWare chain, putting stores into the same markets.

    I never understood it - why would you invest so much money in competing with Apple in retail? Well it was pretty obvious that Apple was going to win that war, just on brand recognition. How could Elite ever earn the investment back selling low-margin Macs? They knew very well what they were getting into. Forget "unfair practices" - the ComputerWare stores were doomed, and Elite should have known it. It was a stupid move. Whatever they're claiming now is just legal cover for investors and future lawsuits.
    • Everything's Apple's Fault When Things Go Wrong

      No, everything's Microsoft's fault when things go wrong. Haven't you been paying attention?

      Repeat after me:
      Apple good, MS Baaaaad.

    • After the Berkeley ComputerWare store reopened under Elite, the prices were too high. Things were just cheaper at the M.A.C. store which is only two blocks away. And ComputerWare didn't always have everything I wanted. Also, the original ComputerWare was better than the Elite ComputerWare, in terms of price, service, and availability.
    • Well, apple is opening a new store in the university village shopping center, just east of the U of washington. it is slightly more than 1 mile directly east of Seattle's "the mac store" (formerly the computer store)

      The bellvue apple store opened 2 weeks ago, and this u village store will likely open around christmas time. So, apple's respect for them isn't all that great.

      Having just moved here, and having spent lots of time in cupertino, i look forward to the apple store nearby - the mac store is ok, b
    • Apple is putting stores in the Seattle Metro area and in Portland.

      The Computer Store is alright, but they charge out the ass for RAM, game software and other add-ons.

      Also, thier staff seems to be the best kind of know-it-all geek.

      I've bought 5 or 6 computers from the Computer Store in Portland and Eugene as well as alot of software but in the last year I've stopped purchasing from them.

      I'd bought a Firefly 1.8 inch Firewire HD from Apple Store and went to Computer Store Tigard OR for another one.

      When I
    • The Computer Store used to be the only game in town. Then came "Macforce" who brought in a clean, spacious building, but their attentiveness leaves a lot to be desired. I, for one, am anxious to have the Apple Store here in Portland. Periodically, Apple lowers prices or does specials that these other companies cannot.

      I work at a Regional government office that supports around 50+ Macs. For all of the Computer Store's and MacForce's emphatic words that they could meet or beat Apple's prices for government,

  • This hurts Apple (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I can't believe what I'm hearing: "It's Apple's perogative to smash anyone trying to sell their products." While I'm sure this has advantages (price control and to maintain limited resources), it also can't help push sales! It seems less and less companies are selling Apple products. While you could argue that web + Apple Stores will fill the gap, I'm not so sure. The question here is exposure. At some point, we'd all like Apple and PC's to get equal shelf space (or more) in any heterogenous computer store,

  • Service Service Service (Score:4, Informative)

    by zscgeek ( 92271 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @02:33PM (#6025839)
    I personally will not miss them. The original ComputerWare chain was great and would always go out of my way to buy from them instead of others even if I had to pay more for it because the service was worth it and I liked supporting a local store.

    Sadly when Elite took over the service went downhill fast. I was never able to get help. If I needed to return something it was a giant hassle and the amount of stuff they stocked sucked. That and on several occasions I was outright lied to about things such as compatibility with anything that they did not happen to have in stock at the moment.

    Because of this I started making the extra hour drive to the Apple store for my purchases.
    • I was in SF once on business and my iBook died. It was within warranty. I called this store and asked for help. They said no. I was very polite, asking for help. They refused. Either because I was not a customer or because they were busy. I went to Palo Alto to the Apple Store. They fixed it immediately. I spent a ton of money in the store while they fixed my iBook free. This is the way to get a customer. You tell the customer "bring it in and we'll look at it", and while you fix it, the potential customer
    • Nor will I miss ComputerWare, the old one or its more recent incarnation.

      I was delighted when I found a store with abundant Apple products in the late 80's. The problem was that it was impossible for a woman to get waited on in the place, something that only seemed to get worse over the years. (I kept trying.) I admit, the only ComputerWares I've been in were the Palo Alto and Berkeley stores, but their behavior in this respect was 100% consistent. It's very annoying to be in a store, ready to buy, whe

  • This is sad (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ablair ( 318858 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @03:02PM (#6026175)

    While I recognize the right of Apple to dictate conditions & practices to their resellers, I think Apple is being short-sighted by scaring off resellers like this. Agreements not allowing recompense for damages, and preferentially releasing product earlier to their own stores is clearly creating an unfair competitive situation favourable to Apple Retail, something which Apple said they would not do [macedition.com] when they announced their retail store strategy 2 years ago. Sure, it means more business will go to Apple Stores and Apple online, but there is also a cost invloved: fewer people in the market to promote Macintosh products. One example is that Elite and other resellers are/were able to get into vertical markets in a way Apple would never have the resources to pay attention to.

    While deprecating resellers for company-branded stores may result in a short-term finacial gain, I think it's poor long-term strategy for the overall health of the platform. Note to all you people out there saying "Slashdot has double standards with MS!" it's not the same, since
    • ...Apple does not have a monopoly in the computer market. MS does. (For those pedantically saying they have a monopoly in the "Macintosh Market", this is the equivalent of a monopoly by Porsche in the Porsche car parts market. Yes, they have one, but it's meaningless since under this definition every company is a monopolist)

      [Apologies for the split post]
    • Um, no. I have to disagree on this one point. The early release crud. Guess what? It's not Apple that is causing the issues. It's the distibution channels that the independants are going through. You see, most resellers have had years of dealing with places like Ingram Micro and TechData for thier Apple product. They have credit accounts and what not with these distribution channels. Apple Stores do not. They get thier product directly from the warehouse. So if you think about this logically, when

  • remembering computerware (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ivgm ( 675565 )
    Beyond the economics or other consideratons of the validity of CW , I remember fondly working at the old California store when, -on the weekends, bus loads of japanese tourists would unload and shop there (at the time we only sold software and peripherals) -folks like gase, hertzfield, smith, levitus, bushnell would frequent and shop -we had guys (and some gals) who really new the SW and could match the needs of the user with the best product. (tim, yugi, steffan, etc) -Saturdays would be an absolute zoo be

  • Apple and ComputerWare... (Score:5, Informative)

    by SvnLyrBrto ( 62138 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @03:09PM (#6026234)
    Obviously, I don't know what was going on behind the scenes. But in my own experience, Apple's focus is on CUSTOMER satisfaction, even at the expense of a sale of their own.

    Back when "Master of Orion III" had JUST been released for the Macintosh, I was REALLY desperate to get it. After being disappointed in CompUSA for not having it in stock, I resorted to calling ahead before trekking to other stores. My first call was to The Apple Store in Emeryville. They were more concerned that I, the customer, would be satisfied than they were on getting that sale. Though they didn't have it in stock, they actually referred me [kuro5hin.org] to three other stores that carry Macintosh software; one of which was the ComputerWare in Berkeley.

    Unfortunately, none of them had MOO3 in stock yet either. A week later, I found myself in Emeryville for other reasons, and decided to stop in at the Apple Store to see if it was in yet. They didn't have it, but the store manager actually CALLED those same resellers (including again, Berkeley's ComputerWare) for me, while I was in The Apple Store, trying to get me what I wanted, EVEN IF IT WOULD COST THEM A SALE!!!

    Shades of "Miriacle on 34th Street"; and certianly NOT the actions of a company that's hostile to its 3rd party resellers. More like one that places the satisfaction of the CUSTOMER at the highest priority. And that's but one more reason *I* will be staying with Apple.

    Plus, as another poster noted, ComputerWare was NEVER very competitive in the first place. Basiclly, they were where you would go as a last resort if you couldn't find something locally, and you didn't want to wait for mail-order. Sure, they were exclusively Macintosh; so their staff was more clued in; but that was only ever relevant to the non-tech-savvy anyway. They also carried random Apple trinkets like T-shirts, pens, stickers, and the like. If you wanted crap like that, ComputerWare was the first place to go.

    But if you wanted hardware or software? No way. ComputerWare, so far as I could ever tell, sold EVERYTHING at the full MSRP. Except for the Macs themselves, most of the hardware they sold could be had at Frys or even CompUSA at 1/3-2/3 the price. And they sold three and even FIVE YEAR OLD games at full MSRP price from when they first came out. This, when the same games could be had in the bargain bin elsewhere in town for $15; or you could wait for MacWorld to roll into the Moscone Center and get them for $5. (Hell, even The Apple Store marks down the low-end games!!!)

    Like I said, I don't know what happened behind the scenes. But from where I sit, The Apple Store was pretty supportive of ComputerWare, even at the possibility of their own expense. And ComputerWare was never, IMO, the perferred store to shop in the first place. My bet is that they only lasted as long as they did because of some of the more zealous Mac users who perferred to shop at a Mac-only store, even if it cost them more money than schlepping down to Frys or CompUSA.

    cya,
    john

    • But in my own experience, Apple's focus is on CUSTOMER satisfaction, even at the expense of a sale of their own.

      Bullshit. When my Powerbook 1400 came back a second or third time(I forget which) from Apple's repair center, still broken, I called Apple Client relations(instead of customer service.)

      The woman actually yelled at me, and did absolutely nothing to resolve my problem.

      Nothing changes- a friend bought an iBook, it took several days to get to her due to a weekend and ground shipping. Day she g

      • Seems to be a big case of YMMV.

        I had the tilde key break on my PowerBook laptop, called into Apple's helpdesk, and had a brand new keyboard shipped out to me (no need to return the old keyboard), which arrived the *next* day.

        The chick on the phone even joked with me about what I could do with the old keyboard once I got the new one.

        Unfortunately, any big company is going to have good people and bad people--I've heard a lot of bad about Apple's tech support, particularly with fixes and turnaround times

    • Back when "Master of Orion III" had JUST been released for the Macintosh, I was REALLY desperate to get it. After being disappointed in CompUSA for not having it in stock, I resorted to calling ahead before trekking to other stores. My first call was to The Apple Store in Emeryville. They were more concerned that I, the customer, would be satisfied than they were on getting that sale. Though they didn't have it in stock, they actually referred me to three other stores that carry Macintosh software; one of w

  • Bwahahaha (Score:2, Interesting)

    by The Bungi ( 221687 )
    I loved reading the responses to this story. It doesn't get any more apologetic than this. Yet if this was Microsoft strong arming someone - or even the mere impression of them doing so - this would have been plastered all over the front page (instead of conveniently hiding in this section) and would have thousands of "insightful" posts explaining -yet again- why "M$" sucks and why Bill Gates is the Great Satan. We'd get the usual treatises on monopoly law, quotes by open source developers who've had to res
    • The comparison is not quite justified. Sure, Apple and Microsoft both have near-monopolies, but while Microsoft has a horizontal monopoly, Apple has a vertical monopoly. The main difference is that a vertical monopoly usually benefits the consumer, while a horizontal monopoly does not. If Apple applies pressure to a retailer, then they could just dump their Apple stock and start selling generic Windows PCs (and find out what competition really means). If MS tried the same thing, then that company would
      • a vertical monopoly usually benefits the consumer, while a horizontal monopoly does not

        I disagree. There are no good monopolies, period.

        If Apple applies pressure to a retailer, then they could just dump their Apple stock and start selling generic Windows PCs (and find out what competition really means). If MS tried the same thing, then that company would go out of buisness and have no valid survival strategy.

        C'mon, you're making this too easy. Your analogy does not work for the simple reason that the

  • I've seen both sides of this.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kageryu255 ( 674465 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @03:52PM (#6026606)
    And frankly, it's not Apple's fault that Elite sucked. The number of complaints from their (ex)customers I've heard about them is astounding. Their management decisions, sales tactics, and repair records are all the explanation I need for their failure.

    I've worked at an Apple Specialist before, who realized that the Apple Stores interact with a completely different market, and that there are entire market segments almost exclusively available to Specialists. They've continuously grown and become the largest and best Reseller / Specialist / Service Provider within a good 100 mile radius. Yes, there was a supply shortage when the new iMacs rolled out.. yes, MacWhorehouse and a couple of the newly opened Apple Stores got a handful of units before we did... but we still got the first stock in the county.

    Every Apple Specialist and Reseller has a rep who covers a certain territory and takes care of "his stores", the shops in his area. Ours ROCKED. Totally on top of things, took care of ordering issues, advised about ways to improve store operations, suggested places to get additional income (it's all about the service department, baby!), helped the store plan out long-term strategy, and always was checking in on how the store was doing.

    If Elite hadn't been a shady operation and had run themselves well (As ComputerWare and a number of other successful Apple Specialists have), worked cooperatively with their Apple liaisons, maintained a better-trained staff base (rather than paying them a crappy wage + dinky comission.. I interviewed @ one of their stores once and took another job), paid attention to the market and where Apple was opening stores, and only re-opened Computerware stores in GOOD locations, things might have turned out differently.
    • Oh yeah.. and it probably would have helped them stay in business if whatshisface (Elite's owner/president) had decided to resign his reseller's agreement.

  • comparison (Score:3, Interesting)

    by YllabianBitPipe ( 647462 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @05:02PM (#6027188)

    I remember shopping at the SF ComputerWare store (before it went out of business) for an iBook and it was a totally pleasant experience ... helpful people, no strings attached, all my questions answered and no hard sell. I liked shopping there. Was sad to hear that store was closed. I have no experience with the Elite Computers version.

    Compare this with my recent trip to the Palo Alto store to buy a new iMac. Great store, great look, great browsing experience, but watch out if you actually want to buy a computer. The sales guy pulled out every add-on in the book, MS Office, AppleCare, an iSub, a printer, .Mac, sheez. I must have said "no, I just want the comptuer" five or six times.

    I know times are hard in retail but that sure left a bad taste in my mouth. I still go to the Apple Store to browse but from now on, I'm buying my hardware online. No more pesky retail clerks to deal with.

    • I'm going to be devil's advocate, and say that maybe the sales person was the problem. Used to work at CompUSA or something. From previous comments, it seems that this isn't necessarily the way they worked. Who knows; maybe he had a review that morning and got 'you haven't had an add-on sale all month' or something.

      As long as you have one nearby, I'd say just give it another try. It's a couple of bucks in gas vs. shipping and whatever else comes with online orders. Yes, sometimes there is free shipp
    • As someone who works as a sales clerk in the bay area I have to say it's unfortunate that the hard sell works. I hate doing it, but it works. It's bad on all sides. I look like and feel like a creep. That perception is going to keep customers away, exactly what a business doesn't need.

      In part, some blame falls on management. Some businesses (like the one I'm currently employed by) make sure their sales people sell hard through "shoppers", meetings (AKA group brainwashing sessions). and requiring these

  • Apple: Microsoft's Mini-Me? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cheesewhiz ( 61745 ) <ianp@nospaM.mac.com> on Friday May 23, 2003 @05:12PM (#6027266) Homepage
    Apple's engaging in 'unfair competition'...

    As much as I regret saying this, I suspect that may be correct.

    Apple has always been known for being friendly to the little fish, mom-and-pop Apple stores around the country, and individual users alike. Lately, however, they've gone a bit kamikazee on their closest allies when it comes to store fronts.

    Granted, many Apple resellers out there are sub-par in presentation and product knowledge -- this is why Apple's own stores are doing so well. Apple Store reps can tell you anything about anything (or find out), and their store design and placement are the best in the industry.

    Unfortunately, this means the little guys can't compete. I love the Apple Stores, but it means the end of independent, store-front resellers very quickly, and that is detrimental to the entire platform.

    Within about 3-5 years (assuming that much "beleaugered" [slashdot.org] Apple doesn't bite the big one first), I expect that Apple will only have independent resellers in education and online.

    Is Apple becoming another incarnation of Microsoft that just happens to give the users what they want, but will wind up holding all the keys?

    Here's hoping not... (Roll the empirial march...)

  • Computerware's problem wasn't Apple (Score:3, Informative)

    by faust2097 ( 137829 ) on Friday May 23, 2003 @05:31PM (#6027391)
    I don't know how many of you had ever been in a pre-Elite Computerware store but it was an exercise in frustration. It frequently took 5-10 minutes for a person to speak to you, their prices were terrible [frequently higher than MSRP] and their overall service was awful. I walked out in the middle of buying a $3000 computer there once because the clerk was being very rude to me. ECS should have dropped the Computerware brand, it was more of a liability than an asset.

    They basically got squeezed from both sides by full service Apple VARs who dealt with businesses and cheaper mail order.
    • I have visited the ComputerWare store in San Rafael, both pre-Elite and right before it closed. Each time, I had to walk right up to a salesperson and start talking in order to be even noticed. I've asked for assistance in choosing between two brands only to be told, "These are the two we have, so just pick one." Once I requested an item (nothing fancy, just a keyboard) that they did not have, so they put one "on order" for me ... and it never arrived. In retrospect, I'm glad it didn't; ComputerWare's p
  • I'm kind of saddened to hear that this company is going out of buisness. It's where I got this iBook from, and it still works great. It's kind of annoying that Apple does things like this even though they don't gain that much out of it.
  • Roadtools coolpad at Apple Company store across street from Elite... $25
    Roadtools coolpad at Elite.... $39.99

    Sony Firewire-Analog bridge at Apple Company Store - $299
    Sony Firewire-Analog bridge at Elite - $599

    I recall these numbers almost verbatim because I was in the market for them at one time or another, and when looking at my choices while visiting the Bay Area, i was just totally floored at how insanely overpriced they were. I never once saw anything at Elite that was even competative in price to an
  • ComputerWare/MacSource was a great chain here in Northern California, and I was sad to see the owners quit while they were ahead 2 years ago...quite understandable though.

    The funniest thing is how they hated Elite and considered it a sleazy operation. I've never purchased anything at Elite...you could just feel the bad karma in the place when you stepped through the doors.

    And like all other sleazeballs, in the end the Elite owners know how to do is sue sue sue.
  • What's ironic is that the MacOS X release party was at the Elite computer store across from Apple in Cupertino (and the imac release party, I think). Woz was there, captain crunch was there, a few other homebrew members. It was a pretty cool place to be that night.
    • http://www.macobserver.com/article/2001/03/20.7.s h tml

      The Cupertino based Elite Computers & Software is planning an OS X Launch Party for this Friday at Midnight. Apple representatives will be there, and not only will people be able to purchase OS X at Midnight, Elite will be giving away OS X shirts to the first 100 people there. According to Elite Computers & Software:

      Elite Computers & Software, an Apple Specialist located directly across the street from AppleHeadquarters in Cupertino, annou
  • I do know first hand from an Elite employee that there is more to this story than is revealed in the article. Apple's changed terms for a continued relationship were brutal. Apple's strong arm tactics made it apparent that it would be more profitable to win a lawsuit against them than compete with them in the marketplace.

    I'm a long term Apple fan, but the monoculture of Apple stores is not healthy for the Macintosh community in the long run.
  • Before you all start throwing words like monopoly and antitrust around, use this handy definition from Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th ed., which the AP uses for copy definitions:

    monopoly 1. exclusive control of a commodity or service in a given market, or control that makes possible the fixing of prices and the virtual elimination of free competition. 2. an exclusive priviledge of engaging in a particular business or providing a service, granted by a ruler or by the state. 3. exclusive posses

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