Safari Beta Updated 95
Jack Kennedy writes "Apple has released Safari 1.0 Beta v51. Unfortunately, Apple don't list what the update addresses; according to Apple, 'this Safari Update is recommended for all Safari users.' Dave Hyatt's Weblog provides a more detailed account of what issues Apple have addressed over the past few days."
Much more stable. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Much more stable. (Score:2, Funny)
Maybe it has its own version of the lameness filter?
Re:Much more stable. (Score:5, Informative)
Safari can definately handle Hotmail, but the UA checking is holding it back.
Re:Much more stable. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Much more stable. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Much more stable. (Score:4, Funny)
I can't login to my spam collection anymore!
dana
Re:Much more stable. (Score:5, Informative)
Try that workaround. Meanwhile, I've put in a bug report on your behalf.
Re:Much more stable. (Score:1)
Re:Much more stable. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Much more stable. (Score:2, Informative)
1) go to msn.com
2) click "Sign In"
3) Sign In
4) Click hotmail
you're all set
Re:Much more stable. (Score:1)
Re:What does this one do? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What does this one do? (Score:2)
alias rhino='rm -f
to my
Re:What does this one do? (Score:1)
Hrm. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hrm. (Score:2, Interesting)
hmmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
* HTTPS doesn't work at all for me over a proxy. I think it is using SSL to talk to the proxy which isn't right. It should connect to the proxy in the clear and then issue a CONNECT and then use SSL. Anybody seen this one?
* "don't use proxy for these hosts/domains" setting is treated as hosts only (so if you put in "foo.com" then you visit "www2.ecommerce.foo.com" the proxy gets used anyway).
* keychain entries of the form "http://host.com:80" are ignored, and it adds its own "http://host.com" entry.
Anybody notice any concrete differences?
Re:hmmm... (Score:4, Informative)
Hmm, it does seem to run the CSS tests now (and does pretty well)
still having problesm running CSS tests? (Score:2)
Rats; I'm still getting failure with what claims to be Beta51. :-( I have the first beta still hanging around, though; is
there some trick to the upgrade I missed?
Re:hmmm... (Score:1)
I still can't login to phpnuke sites correctly. Also for some reason my university's scheduling system reports that I don't have cookies enabled, even though I do (and the cookie is actually showing up in Safari's manager) -- not sure how I could report that bug easily though.
It looks like this update mainly addresses the home directory and printing issues. Overall though I'm really impressed by the browser and have been using it since 24-7 since its release.
Re:hmmm... (Score:1)
Now if I could get two new features in keychain:
1. Links so two entries can have exactly the same password.
2. HTTP password updater so I can update all of my passwords with a click of a button.
Arg!!! Learn to speak american!!!!! (Score:2, Funny)
Apple is
Apple was
Apple will
Apple did not (or didn't)
Apple has
learn it
Re:.fm (Score:2, Informative)
Oh well.
Re:.fm (Score:1)
We call it English because it's the language of the English. What you speak is something else. British is not, and never can be, an English dialect.
Re:.fm (Score:1)
Re:.fm (Score:4, Funny)
It's our language and we can butcher it any way we see fit.
So there!
Re:.fm (Score:5, Informative)
All dialects, including those who developed in England, are incorrect. Most dialectic differences were develloped by illiterate people. There is a correct way to use plurals in English which is well-documented, and it does not matter where you are from.
This is misinformation. All dialects are correct, in that all dialects are self consistent with their own sytaxes and vocabularies. One can speak of the standard dialects, for instance, Received Standard Southern British, which is the canonical British dialect for public discourse, and Standard American English, which is the canonical American dialect for public discourse, or . Another widely used dialect in the United States is African-American Vernacular English, which is sometimes called by linguists Standard African American English, and politically sometimes called "ebonics" and distinguished as a different language by well-meaning idiots who have no background in linguistics.
If one wishes to take part in public discourse, particularly in print, and especially "learned" discourse, it is necessary to learn one of the standard dialects, and it is helpful to learn more than one (e.g., both the American and British standard dialects). If one wishes to converse with persons from other regions that speak English and be sure to understand them, it is helpful to know something about the non-standard dialects which we all use (for instance, The Jargon File [tuxedo.org] is in part a dictionary of a particular non-standard dialect used by self-identified "hackers," and like all dialects, its use is part of that process of self-identification).
One's speech can be incorrect with reference to a particular dialect; for example, one who speaks of a cracker as a "hacker" is not speaking in correct hacker dialect, and is thus identifying himself (or herself) as a poser (i.e., is unintentionally emphasizing an false affectation). Thus one can, in the schools (one of whose primary purposes is the teaching of the local standard dialect), speak of right or wrong use of plurals, in reference to that standard dialect. But one cannot apply the rules from one dialect to others and necessarily identify what are right or wrong uses correctly. Indeed, this is a case in which the American and British standard dialects differ; if one says "Apple is," one is identifying oneself as an American or a wannabee; if one says "Apple are," one is identifying oneself as a Brit/Canadian/etc. (I think this is the usage in the various Commonwealth countries) or a Brit wannabee.
Here's [linguistlist.org] an excellent thread on a linguists list that talks a little bit about prestige or canonical dialects and standards.
I leave the enumeration of the number of different dialects intentionally used in this posting as an exercise to the reader, though I point out that it is an exercise intended to show how shifts in dialect can change one's sense of the "identity" of a writer/speaker.
Re:.fm (Score:1)
If you're using British English, then "Apple don't" is completely correct. The British (and indeed, many other countries) treat a singular noun as plural, if it describes a group of individuals. For example, "The committee are voting this week," "The crew have set a new course," and so on.
So in this case, the person is saying, "Apple doesn't list what the update addresses," but since Apple is a group of individuals, the correct British English phrasing would be, "Apple don't list what the update addresses," or if you prefer, "[The people at] Apple don't list what the update addresses." No problem.
Re:Arg!!! Learn to speak american!!!!! (Score:1)
You can tell who are the English (Score:1)
Nice to see... (Score:1)
Is this a trend that will continue? - Or is this simply an update that stops Safari eating your first-born or whatever all those bugs did
minimum font size support! (Score:5, Informative)
- WebKitMinimumFixedFontSize
- WebKitMinimumFontSize
Follow the same format as WebKitDefaultFontSize and it will work exactly as you'd expect.Re:minimum font size support! (Score:1)
Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:4, Interesting)
I've read somewhere that David Hyatt himself told that the tabs were planned for the final release and that the lack of tabs in current beta's is only due to their deadline. Allegedly, they wouldn't have had time to program tabs support (which is strange since they are working on it for one year now and that Cocoa should make things like adding tabs support quite easy to implement).
Does anyone have real information about that?
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:4, Informative)
I heard that he categorically said "no tabs"
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:5, Insightful)
It occurs to me that a better -- and arguably more "Cocoa-ish" -- way to present this would be a tray interface, like what you see in Mail.app. Seen this way, you could have a hierarchy of widgets in the tray, including:
If presented this way, you could browse open documents and bookmarks much as you can browse mail folders in Mail.app. If items in the tray could be browsed with "flippy triangles" (like in the Finder's list view), then you could zoom in on different kinds of URLs quickly. Plus, having a tray interface might even buy you enough screen real estate that you could even have thumbnail versions of some or all pages in the collection. Neat, huh?
Personally, I agree with everyone that's asking for tabbed browsing, but only to the extent that I think that the web is easier to browse in a MDI style. But the more I think about this tray idea, the less I think that simple tabs is the best way to present this information. Trays. They're IMO the coolest & most innovative part of the Aqua interface, and they really aren't implemented all that often. This seems to me like a perfect place to introduce a tray interface, and if Apple decides to add a MDI option to Safari, my hope is that this is how they'll implement it.
If you agree that this is a good idea, please do as I've done and submit the idea as feedback to Apple with Safari's bug reporter widget, or by using the bug reporter on Apple's site (sorry, I forget the url offhand). Now is the time to let them know what features you would hope for... :)
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:2)
I think you're suggesting the same thing I was trying to get at in a post on a previous Safari thread. [slashdot.org] Unfortunately, I have never used Mail.app since I don't dare try to read and file mail that way since I need to read mail from way too many different places and systems. By "tray" do you mean the same way that "bookmark view" (what you get by clicking the book icon or typing option-cmd-B) does stuff? If so, that's what I hit on (although I also want navigation improvement which should be easy).
I would do this except that I'm pretty sure that if I were triaging bugs from these sources and saw *anything* with the word "tab" or "tabbed" in it, I'd file it in the bitbucket these days. :-) Plus, you'd expect somebody who knows
somebody at Apple is reading these posts, so posting about it here (or I guess there's a discussion at apple.com)
might have some effect as well.
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:4, Informative)
In any case, in the Aqua interface, trays are a specific & unambiguous interface style that for whatever reason hasn't been used very often so far. The best example I can think of from one of the "core" applications is Mail.app [slashdot.org], for which there is a screenshot at Apple's site. The other big application I can think of right now is Omniweb [omnigroup.com], which uses a drawer to organize bookmarks [omnigroup.com]. (I'm not an Omniweb user, so I wasn't aware of that until searching for this post :). Of freeware apps that I use regularly, the best example I can think of is (the very slick) MacJournal [mac.com], which uses two trays [mac.com] -- one to present a list of journals, the other to present entries within a particular journal (for example).
Now that I poke around a bit, the best critical reviews of the tray interface I can find so far are this MacEdition review [macedition.com] and this Oreillynet tutorial [macdevcenter.com]. (John Siracusa also wrote some excellent OSX reviews for Ars Technica, but I can't find a section that focuses on drawers in particular.)
But the authoritative reference -- which unfortunately doesn't seem to have screenshots to go along with the prose -- is the Apple MacOS X Human Interface Guidelines [apple.com]:
So while this isn't incompatible with what you're asking for, it looks to me like it's not quite the same thing. This is an existing toolkit that could be called on by any Cocoa or Carbon application, and it seems to me like this is a perfect example of where best to apply it.
I'll go you one further... (Score:3, Informative)
Essentially all your search query strings become an item in the drawer on the side (whichever you like; Cocoa drawers are ambidextrous. Try collapsing the drawer in mail, and then drag a message to the right, and then to the left... you'll see what I mean.) This approach is comparable to Tabs in functionality, but appearance-wise takes advantage of the fact that tabs work better vertically for most situations, displaying additional information about the query, and offering controls over that query.
A drawer approach in a browser would offer some interesting advantages over the tabs; one could arrange ad-hoc or dynamic collections within one such drawer entry, much in the way iTunes Smart Bookmarks work. For example a 'News' item, 'Blogs' item, etc.
Similar functionality exists using the folder structures in the Safari Bookmark Bar, but the horizontal arrangement does sacrifice some real estate in the UI, as you want as much vertical room as you can get for your browser window, generally speaking. I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple implement a whole history in a drawer though, complete with scaling thumbnails of the pages themselves. (mostly cosmetic, and useless, that last bit - but it'll look damn cool).
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:2)
OK, so I checked out some of the drawer stuff you posted about, and remembered that there is a drawer in the silly Help Viewer program. That is a pretty interesting idea, except for one problem. It appears that for a window to have a drawer, you need to have enough "space" to open the drawer, since the drawer "pulls out" from the window. I'm not sure how well this would work in a web browser, given how many people have small screens or (for whatever reason) like to surf from a maximized window.
So, I think Safari *could* have implemented the "Bookmarks View" as a drawer, but chose to use a completely different view. I think that view has some big problems in terms of keyboard navigation (How do you get from the left column to right without using the mouse? Why doesn't hitting return when a book mark is selected let you go to that page?), but if those are fixed, it's a very interesting kind of idea. And it's easy to imagine a full-featured "current windows" view that would give all of the advantages of tabs and more without the UI cruft.
So to summarize, drawers might be interesting, but I'm not sure they are the right choice when you expect the window that needs a drawer to be maximized on the screen.
iBook users may disagree... (Score:2, Insightful)
IMHO, there is simply no room for a tray on the side of that window, especially if I want to interact with other programs. I feel that tabs, even though they take up precious vertical space, are a much better MDI (oh how happy I would be if the tab bar could be vertical, running down the left-side of the window...but I feel that the horizontal tab bar is more intuitive to use).
So, while a tray might seem like a great idea for users with high resolution screens, right now it seems like a huge part of Apple's market is laptop users, and unfortunately, our screens just don't have many pixels.
As far as tabs go, I wish Mozilla's tabs were a bit narrower and I wish I could shrink the font of the page titles to gain a few more precious lines back. Currently, I have found (for my browsing style) using the PinBall theme with icon only buttons gives me the most real-estate to work with.
But this is all just my own humble opinion, and I cannot speak for all iBook users. Cheers. :-)
Re:iBook users may disagree... (Score:2)
I reckon that all we need is variable-width drawers; then you can decide just how much width you want to use. You can pretty much do that anyway with fixed-width windows (I used to position my Mail.app window so that most of the drawer was off the screen), but it would be nice if you could make your thumbnails as small as you want to.
Re:iBook users may disagree... (Score:1)
As time has gone on, I've come to feel that, regardless of the screen resolution, my most "comfortable" browser window geometry is more tall than wide, like a sheet of notebook paper. Since nearly all computer monitors have the opposite geometry -- wider than they are tall -- this means that for nearly all common screen resolutions (anything bigger than 640x480) I tend to have one or more windows open, partially overlapping vertically. Arranged this way, I personally would feel comfortable giving some of that un-used (or at least, less-used) horizontal space to something like a tab / bookmark / history drawer; at the same time, on a low resolution display it would annoy me to have to sacrifice the little bit of vertical height I have available to a row of tabs, when a more rich interface could present the same information & more if moved to one side.
In any case though, this doesn't have to be an either/or situation. For every application I've seen that uses them, drawers are toggleable & can be resized as needed, and some even let you move them to the left, right, or maybe even bottom of the window (though putting it on the bottom seems messy for this situation). So if Apple were to put this functionality into Safari, I don't see any reason that they couldn't also make it flexible as well...
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:1)
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:1)
Re:Unfortunately still no tabs (Score:2)
Possible better answer to the tabs problem (Score:4, Insightful)
I used to think exactly what you think about this. Then after seeing (again) some of the objections to them, I came up with an idea to gain tab-like functionality using ideas already implemented in what you might call "bookmark view" and the (key) idea that the information about existing windows that exists in the "Window" menu really wants to be treated like a collection as well. Check out: my previous post on a different safari thread, [slashdot.org] and then maybe also a slight tweak designed to bring up the "tab list" separately from other bookmark stuff. [slashdot.org] In both proposals, you would not have tabs listed across the top of the browser by default, and you would have to hit one keyboard combo (either option-cmd-B or option-cmd-w) to see the "tabs" at all. But after that, this view is *better* than what you get from tabs or the Window menu since it would essentially never have to truncate page titles and would obviously give you space to display URLs.
Again, the basic idea is that the "window list" information could be made more navigable in a form very similar to that for bookmarks or the late, great file selector dialogs that allowed type-ahead on filenames. (I think Safari needs type ahead for links in normal webpages, too. Since type ahead is intuitive when the focus is in the location bar, I don't think it's a big stretch to make the Mozilla-like leap to allowing it when the focus is not on a text entry box of some kind.
The functionality of tabs (rapid navigation to one of the several pages you have open) is preserved, while UI cruft is not required. Please tell me what you think. :-)
The biggest change (Score:5, Informative)
(This comment posted with Safari)
Re:The biggest change (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The biggest change (Score:1, Redundant)
(I am using Safari, working with the suspicion that Apple did in fact fix the problem, and didn't provide a changelog because they didn't want to admit to having had that problem. There's not even very much of an indication that the version on the site is even a new one, most regular users who decided to check out Safari after it had been out for a couple days wouldn't have noticed it was a different version than the original public Beta release.)
Re:The biggest change (Score:2)
The post's here [apple.com].
Re:blaaaa!! (Score:3, Funny)
I think you meant to say "The most popular, dynamic tool for delivering irritating, obnoxious ad content." :)
I still use Chimera for some things but I'm never going back to IE -- it's just too freaking slow and I'm spoiled.
Re:blaaaa!! (Score:1)
An example [homestarrunner.com]
(For the record, I haven't tried it under the update yet.)
Re:blaaaa!! (Score:1, Informative)
Excellent feature (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Excellent feature (Score:1)
Re:Excellent feature (Score:1)
Re:Excellent feature (Score:1)
I'm I the only one who like to grab texts (Score:1)
Re:I'm I the only one who like to grab texts (Score:1)
One bug (Score:2, Interesting)
Example [localhost]
Safari yields an alert that just contains a single "#" character. Other browsers will say "#hash" instead.
Re:One bug (Score:1)
Anyway...
Weak of Apple, Hyatt (Score:1)
1.
2. all of one's own files disappeared, along with one's home directory. Immense data loss, and not being able to even log in - a major tragedy.
Neither Apple nor Hyatt have dared mention the second issue. That is weak.
Re:Weak of Apple, Hyatt (Score:2)
The one thing I love... (Score:2, Informative)
crash and burn... (Score:2, Interesting)
Ability to see URL before clicking? (Score:1)
Not only is that an irritation, it has security implications, too.
Re:Ability to see URL before clicking? (Score:2)
Some days I think menus were a bad idea, people just don't look around in them to see what can be done.