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Apple Businesses

Apple Macworld Snub a "negotiating tactic" 66

Posted by Hemos from the battle-of-words dept.
Nick dePlume writes "Apple Computer's decision to not endorse the move of the east coast Macworld Expo convention from New York to Boston is a "negotiating tactic," albeit a shockingly public one, reports Think Secret. Sources believe Apple had firmly endorsed the move, which was announced today."
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Apple Macworld Snub a "negotiating tactic" More

Apple Macworld Snub a "negotiating tactic"

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  • Excuse to cut down to one MacWorld/year? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @08:59AM (#4477629) Homepage
    The only possibility that makes sense to me is that Apple wants to cut back to one U.S. MacWorld per year--to cut costs; to reduce the product release straitjacketing forced by the desire to make trade show announcements; to ensure that there's plenty to announce and always a GOOD "one more thing," etc.

    And they seized on this as an excuse.

    Still seems mystifying and lame, though.

    I bought my first Mac in February 1984 (OK, I was a late adopter) and have attended EVERY Boston MacWorld. Why does Steve want to break my heart?

  • It reminds me a little of 1939. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by torpor ( 458 ) <ibisum AT gmail DOT com> on Friday October 18, 2002 @09:03AM (#4477653) Homepage Journal
    Not sure if its Czechoslovakia, or Poland, but somewhere in between.

    Regardless, no doubt Apple need the break, with their losses this quarter. Yeah, Boston is cheaper, and purportedly Apple had agreed to it, so why're they getting fussed about NYC, which would be more expensive?

    To negotiate a lower floor price in Boston? Well, good. Seems shrewdness on Apples part is apt, imnsho.

    Of course, the *real* question that needs to be answered is which city (Boston or New York) has the best security ... trade shows represent all sorts of targets.
    • Apple probably doesn't want to seem like they are deserting NYC in their "time of pain." Well, they probably want to at least make it look like they put up a fight.
    • In the big picture a 45 million loss is next to nothing considering they bought out 3 companies and have more than 4 billion dollars in the bank. Why everyone seems to think this move is economically motivated is beyond me. Of all the possible reasons why Apple would not go to the show Money is the least probable.

      • No the loss is not that big a deal, and they are profitable for the year, but that doesn't mean that they don't have to watch their money.

        A 250K here, 250k there and pretty soon it adds up to real money.

        I think apple wants/needs to make Macworld a profit center, and until that happens things are going to be tough-- there's no reason they should be spending any money, net, on macworld. It should at least be free to them, if not something they derive a couple million in profit from.

        • >-- Basically, everyone who thinks Macs are >slower and more expensive than PCs is either in >denial or lying

          Or they are using software that don't utilize altivec. (Yes I did some benchmark on software I use, and the 1GHZ G4 lost to my Athlon XP2000). Still looking forward to that 970 however :}


          • Nope, this is the case for regular FP operations as well as integer work.

            Trivial code, that isn't CPU intensive anyway, however, will run faster on a higher clock rate CPU, but it isn't doing much work anyway.

            • It is true for floating point, due to the really ugly x86 floating point system, but all the test I have made using integer operations were won by the Athlon.

              >Trivial code, that isn't CPU intensive anyway, >however, will run faster on a higher clock rate
              >CPU, but it isn't doing much work anyway.

              ???? What kind of non cpu intensive task will run faster on a cpu with a higher clock?? That don't make any sense. Either it is cpu/memory bound in which case the fastes cpu system will finish or it is io bound(Harddisk,modem,network) in which case the clock of the cpu don't matter.

  • Why you don't want to come to Boston (Score:5, Funny)

    by DeadSea ( 69598 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @09:03AM (#4477654) Homepage Journal
    1. The Big Dig won't actually be completed for another ten years.
    2. It's tiny [mapquest.com] compared to New York [mapquest.com]. (Notice that all of boston could comfortably fit in a tiny portion of Manhatten.
    3. The silicon valley still has better tech jobs.
    4. What the hell is chowda? No I don't want to have some.
    5. Yes, the Yankees suck, but so do the Red Sox.
    6. Boston Drivers [cityofboston.gov]

  • A perplexing one at that. (Score:5, Informative)

    by BitGeek ( 19506 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @09:04AM (#4477662) Homepage

    No doubt people will claim that this is Steve Jobs being mercurial.

    But to be honest, I'm surprised-- I would think Apple would welcome the move to Boston, especially given that it is supposed to make the show cheaper for exhibiters. I don't really think that Apple has a real strategic advantage of having MacWorld in NYC-- after all Boston is less than a days drive away, and is also a big hub of computing types.

    Furthermore, if what they really want is to be in NYC, why threaten to boycott NYC 2003?

    One thing thats perplexed me is that Think Secret talks about a press release from Apple, but I have not been able to find it.

    Is this really not a public issue- and merely something thats gone on in the back rooms of negotiating that someone (possible IDG) decided to make public to make Apple look bad? OR was I just poor at finding the release from Apple? A reference to Apple actual statement would be valuable (think secret mentions it but doesn't link to it.)

    To be honest, one thing thats odd about the situation is that I would expect the show to be apples show-- not Macworlds. Or put another way, this is the kind of thing that Apple would create themselves and then hire a company like IDG to manage for them-- rather than something that Apple will likely want to have owned (and the profits going to) an outside entity (Which I believe is the people behind the Macworld magazine.)

    Since Apple is a niche market, what they may really want is their own show-- or enough control that this show serves their marketing needs. It doesn't seem like it would be viable to have two major competing shows.

    Furthermore, these shows are really a profitable thing, even after paying the convention center and the union guys, the organizers clear a lot of cash. And they are making that cash based on the fact that Apple will have major announcements-- and indirectly, companies will exhibit there because of Apple's presence.

    When I was looking at MWSF 2003 booth space, it looked like not much of the show had sold out, so the recession may well be changing the economics of the situation.

    This may be the beginning of a reshuffling that has the shows moved to different times of the year (Possibly fall and spring) to better suit sales cycles (the christmas rush is more important than back to school, so MW in the summer may be bad timing.) We may end up with Macworld going away and Apple Expos replacing it... its not clear whether that would be better or worse.

    Apple runs an excellent show for WWDC, but then, that's a much smaller affair.

  • Pure stupidity in my opinion. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BoomerSooner ( 308737 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @09:28AM (#4477798) Homepage Journal
    This isn't Apple's convention. It is a convention for Apple.

    The only thing I really hate about Apple is the extreme arrogance (and I am a switcher on the client side!).

    If they don't want to go then to hell with them. I was considering paying the $1295 for the convention in January in SF but now... ah, who am I kidding, I need the write-off vacation.

    • Re:Pure stupidity in my opinion. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by BitGeek ( 19506 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @09:34AM (#4477849) Homepage

      I don't see the arrogance.

      conventions are marketing events. Microsoft controls the windows conventions. Its not surprising that Apple would require that MacWorld to meet its needs.

      After all, it is really apple's convention, its not a convention for apple-- the people who put on that show are profiting on apple's support, not the other way around.
      • "After all, it is really apple's convention, its not a convention for apple-- the people who put on that show are profiting on apple's support, not the other way around."

        Unfortunately, I think that is exactly the 'arrogant' attitude that is what holds apple back from being as successful as the IBM compatible PC industry.

        Historically, they've always seem other people profiting off of 'their industy' as leeches, who owe their existance to apple. They crack down on diversity, especially when it's not apple authenticated, and while they seem to throw out technological innovation like no one knows, the fact that they keep it closed off from the rest of the world (in terms of use and development) kills them.

        Apple _would_ owe its profit to the people at the show if they supported the _whole_ industry -- and then, they'd probably have a lot more profit.

        Or, maybe not, but the mac industry as a whole would.
        • As I see it, this has nothign to do with arrogance. This is Apple supporting thier community, AS they have done since the inception of MacWorld. It's not thier show, it isn't hosted by them, nor is the money made by them. They merely show up to support the community that is buying thier machines. As to how this "arrogance" applies to Apple's market, I have no idea where your getting the idea that people profiting off them are leeches, but lets look at it this way: You design a new method of transportation. We'll call it teleportation. We'll say this method is revolutionary because it function by allowing people to instanteously vanish from one place and appear in another. Now lets say that you have a friend, we'll call him John Cochran, and he comes along and steals your plans, rapes your machines of thier components and creates a new method of transportation called transporters that do the same thing. Would you be happy to bend over for him as he makes billions off of your hard work? I highly doubt it. As to thier diversity, Apple has allowed people to do what they please with thier computer since its inception, nor with a BSD core its even easier to change things. Thier technological innovations were never closed off, the reason they weren't adopted was because the industry considered them all proprietary.(appletalk, NuBUS, ADB, etc) Nowadays that is different since they use standards to create thier innovations and release exactly how to do it to the rest of the world. Apple doesn't owe its profit to the show, the show owes its profit to Apple. The motivating factor for me and about everybody else to go to the show over everything else is to view the keynote personally. Sure they stream it, but the chances of getting one are so precious and its so much better in person anyway. No network hiccups, except when the person next to you has the audacity to cough and you miss by what measure the G4 outperforms [isert specs here] PC. The Mac industry you say? Well, you must mean the Apple consumer base, because there is no "Mac industry" just a Mac community.
          • "As I see it, this has nothign to do with arrogance. This is Apple supporting thier community, AS they have done since the inception of MacWorld"

            Wait... I thought we were discussing Apple declaring they weren't supporting the MacWorld expo? How exactly is that 'supporting their community'?


            "It's not thier show, it isn't hosted by them, nor is the money made by them"

            Right, Right, sorta. Apple does in fact get proceeds from the convention. But, if they don't show up, they won't make direct profit, I guess.


            "I have no idea where your getting the idea that people profiting off them are leeches"

            I didn't say that they were leeches, I said that Apple view them that way -- which your next statement:

            "but lets look at it this way: You design a new method of transportation. We'll call it teleportation. We'll say this method is revolutionary because it function by allowing people to instanteously vanish from one place and appear in another. Now lets say that you have a friend, we'll call him John Cochran, and he comes along and steals your plans, rapes your machines of thier components and creates a new method of transportation called transporters that do the same thing. Would you be happy to bend over for him as he makes billions off of your hard work?"
            seems to agree with -- because frankly, I don't think any of the other vendors at MacWorld are abusing Apple and raping their machines. They're part of the Mac Community too. But Apple just doesn't like any challenges to its authority, I guess.


            "Apple doesn't owe its profit to the show, the show owes its profit to Apple."

            And while perhaps correct, that's exactly the kind of arrogant attitude I'm complaining about.


            "The motivating factor for me and about everybody else to go to the show over everything else is to view the keynote personally."

            Well good, I'd hope you'd support your Mac Community regardless of whether Apple cares about it or not.


            "No network hiccups, except when the person next to you has the audacity to cough and you miss by what measure the G4 outperforms [isert specs here] PC."

            Well gee, that supported your argument, and didn't make you look like a biased mac-obsessor at all.


            "The Mac industry you say? Well, you must mean the Apple consumer base, because there is no "Mac industry" just a Mac community"

            EXACTLY! There is no Mac industry, because APPLE WANTS TO BE THE ONLY TOP DOG. There are ONLY consumers, no other vendors in the market for other hardware, or software -- yes, yes, I know there actually are, I'm trying to make a point on how Apple wants it.
            As long as there is only an Apple consumer base, and NO Mac Industry, Macs will continue to hold less than 10% of the desktop market.
            • Since everything else isn't gonan go anywhere I'll reply to the last part. The reason that Apple is the only company making Macs is simple, when they licensed other companies, those companies severely undercut thier prices and rather than helping them to expand it cannibalized thier sales. And currently at this stage of the game, if Apple were to try the same thing it would happen again.

              Perhaps a couple years down the line as the switch campaing becomes more succesful and the Palladium initiative is realized for what it is, then people will start flocking ot hte mac at a rate I doubt Apple can handle. Then they can relicense thier machines to others, because then they are guaranteed that in the long run that is a smart move. At this stage in the game, I just don't see it possible yet. maybe a couple years down the line. Personally I look forward ot the day I can make my own Mac with parts of my choosing in a gorgeous enclosure, just differnt enough that a mobo can't use it.

              Oh and when is siad Apple supporting thier community I was referring to its continued Attendance since the conception of MacWorld, now f only they would give out free stuff other than just posters.

        • Apple does not crack down on diversity. That's just silly. The only examples put forth for that I've heard of were people who were blatently using apple copyrighted stuff.

          They don't keep their innovation closed off from the rest of the world-- everyone is free to use it. Hell, they build it into the OS or give it away for free completely as they did with rendezvous.

          Somehow you seem to be ignoring the fact that Macs and Windows boxes are not compatible, and they never will be. And it ain't apple's arrogance that makes this the case.
          • "Somehow you seem to be ignoring the fact that Macs and Windows boxes are not compatible, and they never will be. And it ain't apple's arrogance that makes this the case."

            I was wondering exactly what you meant by this? I don't really understand a) what you _are_ implying is responsible for this (honest question) and b) where this turned into an "Apple is better" "No windows is better" argument.


            • Apple isn't arrogant and clamping down on diversity-- it is not apple's fault that windows is not compatible with them. It is not apple making themselves incompatible with windows. It was windows not following the apple standard (preferably licensed.)

  • My first MacWorld experience (Score:5, Interesting)

    by amichalo ( 132545 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @10:05AM (#4478100)
    I am a switcher as of 2001 and I lived in NYC when MacWorld was there. I tell you, it was pretty much like crack for Apple nerds.

    Not only was Jobs there but virtually every hardware and software maker was represented. People were giving out free stuff (from throwaway brochures to full software packages) and there was generally lots of excitement.

    I don't think those things will change by moving it back to Boston, but what could is the image of the show. No matter what anyone says, New York is the capital of commerece in the western world. All major US media is based there, even the Daily Show. Apple should WANT to be there, regardless of it being more expensive. Everything is more expensive there. It's New York.

    Sadly, With IDG signing on for three years in NYC, Apple has but two options -
    (1) Have their own AppleGalaxy in New York or
    (2) Give in, prehaps with other consessions, and go to Bean Town

  • What does Apple have to gain from this? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by 1019 ( 262204 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @11:25AM (#4478759) Homepage
    If this ThinkSecret source is correct, then Apple is just playing hardball for more money, or better footing?
    They intentionally told IDG they were behind the move then suddenly pulled the carpet out from under them?
    Sure, New York is where the "scene" is, but the extra money that it's going to cost to keep it there (if Apple truly wants it there..who knows now) could be used towards development or better Apple products.

    Is there an eclipse going on somewhere in the universe that only effects Marketing/PR people? Apple and MS seem to have gone mad in such respects.

  • offtopic, but, Apple vs MS (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Ad Campaign Misfires:
    Apple did pick up the MS switch campain story. Strikes me as rather unusual Apple to tease others like that....
    • Apple has always liked to tease it's competitors. Remember C:>ONGRATULATIONS.WIN95 ad that Apple ran? Or the "Welcome IBM, Really" ad. Apple keeps that edge to them because it sets them apart (for better or worse) from all the other computer makers.
      • Do you guys have links to these instances where Apple pokes fun at MS, because I have seen neither of the advertisements of which you guys speak.

        • Re:offtopic, but, Apple vs MS (Score:4, Informative)

          by MoneyT ( 548795 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @04:18PM (#4481344) Journal
          Sure, you can see some examples here

          http://www.redlightrunner.com/appleads.html

          (notably, 1984, Lemmings, Crowd Control and y2k)

          From this site

          http://applemuseum.bott.org/sections/ads.html

          Examples include snail and toasted bunnies. It also has the links for the other ads, but some of them appear to be broken.


          • Lemmings hits the nail right on the head.

            Its fun to watch pc weanies sputter and stutter as they try to justify their following the crowd and ignoring reality.

            But that ad really shows the mentality well.

          • Im aware Apple likes to poke fun, its one of the cool things about Apple, but I was wondering where the specific references you guys are making are coming from.
            • The too that I mentioned appeared in a magazine, though I can't find the specifics on them. One of those sites had them, but the links were broken. But a quick read through Apple Confidential I believe had the references and maybe even pictures. Just ask a mac guy who subcribes to Mac Addict to send you the PDFs

  • The Big Apple Show (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Zane Edwards ( 562074 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @12:30PM (#4479372) Homepage
    6 months before any Apple keynote there are rampant rumors about new G6's, Mac's that make toast, or whatever, getting so many people excited that they will now be able to replace their old Quadra because the latest rumored model is fast enough.

    So instead, Apple comes out with a really kick ass G4 and some cool app and people then whine and complain about how much Apple sucks. Apple sells maybe 20 new G4's.

    Remember, the iPod was release with out a trade show. If fact, releasing products without any hyper fanfare of a Apple show seems to get people more excited and act more like consumers instead of critics.

    So until the rumors die down, or until Apple becomes processor chip god, people are going to be disappointed with the keynotes and Apple.

  • Charlie Greco's Ego is to blame (Score:5, Interesting)

    by clmensch ( 92222 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @12:32PM (#4479384) Homepage Journal
    One thing that I remember from when we first heard talk of the move is that the head of IDG World Expo, Charlie Greco, said his goal was to bring MacWorld back to his hometown...as in he wants the "Local Man Makes Good" glory by bringing some $$$ to Beantown:

    - MacWorld likely to return to Hub [boston.com]
    - IDG World Expo's Charlie Greco Appointed to Massachusetts Lodging Association's Stamas Commission [yahoo.com]
    - Shows wait for Hub move [businesstoday.com]

    These are just a few articles that mention Greco's hometown-boy status. Particularly interesting is his appointment to the Stamas Commission. That seems like a pretty obvious ploy to get in with the political/tourism wonks of the city...and is probably not something he could have done had he been considered an "outsider".

    This whole thing sounds to me like he didn't ask for Apple's opinion on the matter, or ignored Apple if/when they told him they would prefer the show stay in NYC. Personally, I hope the jerk gets burned by his own egotistical needs, rather than doing what's truly best for the Macintosh community...keeping MacWorld in the the financial and media capital of the States for at least a few more years.

  • Self promotion (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Incadenza ( 560402 ) on Friday October 18, 2002 @06:10PM (#4482093)
    So, you're called Nick de Plume and you're the Publisher and Editor in Chief of a site called "ThinkSecret". All fine by me. But why do you post messages about your own news/rumour site on /.? Will we get daily postings now, all CCed from ThinkSecret? Reeks like shameless pluggin to me.
  • While I know many believe there is no such thing as bad publicity, it really seems like Apple and IGN are bickering school kids. It is crap [applecrap.com] like this that only serves to harm everyone involved and a lot of third parties. If Apple isn't part of Macworld, then IMHO Macworld is just not that special anymore. Sure focus may go more to other vendors (which may be a good thing) but Macworld really needs a headliner, and Apple has always filled that slot.

    If both companies are actually OK with this thing, then I think it shows how little respect they have for the people who shell out their hard earned cash for their crap [applecrap.com]. They don't need to resort to public "bickering" to get us to understand anything. If they want 1 Macworld Expo in the US per year, so be it. But this whole cloak and dagger theory is just a load of crap [applecrap.com].

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