Apple Buys Emagic 183
sapporo writes "Apple has apparently bought Emagic, developers of Audio Logic, music production software used by 200,000 people worldwide. Emagic will operate as a wholly
owned division of Apple, and the Windows versions of their software will be discontinued on September 30, 2002. Whoa!"
Good news. (Score:3, Interesting)
On to something more serious now, will this acquisition be good for Apple ? Certainly they've got the majority of Logic users, but can they improve upon this product to the degree that it will cause the Windows users to switch? I'm not sure whether they can. Getting someone to switch platforms when there are other solutions available is obviously not easy. But some of these audio applications take a lot of experience to master, and it may be cheaper in the long run for someone to buy a PowerMac instead of having to learn one of the other available applications for PC.
I do hope that everyone benefits from this, and that the small audio guy who only has a PC isn't left completely out in the cold, I do realize not everyone can afford a Mac. Hopefully the existing user base will not be immediately left out in the cold when they drop PC support. There should be some modicum of respect for the users who helped make Emagic as popular as it is today.
Correction... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Good news. (Score:2, Informative)
I work in the music industry and have used a fair few different studios. The theme that runs throughout with engineers and producers is that they stick to what they started with normally. I.e. someone who started with logic loathes moving to cubase and distrusts anyone who uses it. Same goes for the other way round. I'm sure in the bigger set-ups where money is no object systems will be changed to mac (if they aren't already). Anyway, a lot of these places use pro-tools as well, which works much better on the mac (the pc version is the most ugly unusable piece of cr*p I've ever had the misfortune to play with, then again so's the mac version, just slightly less so...give me a soundscape red system anyday!!!)
Re:Good news. (Score:2)
Which is why so many people use Logic with Digi hardware :)
(I'm a Cubase user my self)
Offtopic: Schadenfreude (Score:3, Offtopic)
Word of the Day for Wednesday May 10, 2000:
schadenfreude \SHAHD-n-froy-duh\, noun:
A malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others.
The historian Peter Gay -- who felt Schadenfreude as a Jewish child in Nazi-era Berlin, watching the Germans lose coveted gold medals in the 1936 Olympics -- has said that it "can be one of the great joys of life."
--Edward Rothstein, "Missing the Fun of a Minor Sin." New York Times, February 5, 2000
Often the people Pi met in Mendocino wanted to hear these terrible stories, the personal disasters, or they quoted them back to her from what they'd read, with a certain glitter in their eyes -- giving Pi the chance to wonder again as she once had in a Wittgenstein seminar why there wasn't a word in English for Schadenfreude, that very human pleasure taken in other people's misery.
--Sylvia Brownrigg, The Metaphysical Touch
If self-replicating e-commerce baby tycoons get on your nerves, it's schadenfreude time. It's true that the Nasdaq rebounded after its staggering loss Tuesday. Nonetheless, what AP described as "the most volatile day ever for U.S. stocks" left a distinctly bearish aftertaste.
--"Market Motion Sickness." The Industry Standard's Media Grok, April 5, 2000
Re:Good news. (Score:1)
Prismo Graphics [macworld.com]
Film Logic [filmlogic.com]
Zayante [zayante.com]
Nothing Real [nothingreal.com]
Digital Performer = Mac only (Score:2)
Re:Good news. (Score:2)
Digital Performer does not run on Windows.
Re:Apple could care less. (Score:2)
Yeah, execpt that a low end mac that you can buy for $1K is superior to that "really good PC" you buought for the same price in every way-
faster, better software, better quality hardware.
People who compalain about being too poor to buy a mac are usually that way because they WASTED their money on a PC that cost too mcuh and delivered too little.
If you can't afford to upgrade *your* mac, don't be fooled by those cheap PCs. Hell, you could get an XBOX PC for only $200, with a killer pentium processor and a killer graphics card.
If you think they are the same as a mac, you're mistaken.
I bought a PowerMac 9600 from Boeing surplus for $75, managed to get OS X running on it, and now it works as a fileserver on my home network.
I don't know of any PCs from that era that could do the same thing using Windows software. Maybe Linux, sure, but not twith the quality of the aqua UI.
If you really are po and want to work at the low end, buy that elcheapo PC, but then you can't afford Logic anyway, right? Sheesh.
Any fair comparison finds that Macs are cheaper than PCs. The fact that you can get an XBOX for $200 does not make PCs cheaper. (And marginally better things for $400, etc.)
Re:Apple could care less. (Score:2)
Yeah, you should switch to a MAc. you get better hardware, at cheaper prices than a comperable PC.
You shouldn't whine that now you have the opportunity to upgrade to a superior platform. And you don't have to do it right away, keep using your current software and upgrade when you're ready to upgrade your machine.
BTW- your statements about slow RAM et. al. express ignorance about how PCs work. The performance is based on many factors. For instance, if you have two ram busses at 2/3 the speed of a machine with only one ram buss, you'll have a faster machine because ram bandwidth is cummulative.
Macs are faster than PCs in the same price category... and it takes a lot of misrepresentation to sustain the illusion that this isn't true-- but then, there are a lot of PC people who don't want to feel like idiots for wasting their money and therefore suspend disbelief.
Spending spree (Score:5, Interesting)
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Apple hardware still too expensive for you? How about a raffle ticket? [macraffle.com]
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Let "them" know you're not a terrorist! [cafepress.com]
Re:Spending spree (Score:2)
I think the answer to this question is obviously "both." Like many others, I played with Shake running on dual-processor Power Macs at NAB. It was very fast and very stable, at least to the extent that I was able to exercise it.
Getting these applications running on Mac OS X is great for Apple. If you buy the argument that Macs have lower TCO than Windows machines (and I do) then it's great for the customers that use these applications, too.
And getting these apps off of Windows is definitely good for Apple. No question about that.
Why build it when you can buy it? (Score:1)
What they are doing - and quite a few people have pointed this out already - is mimicking the strategy behind their recent successes with iTunes, Final Cut Pro, and DVD Studio Pro: buy someone else's technology, optimize it for your hw and sell it at a (relatively) low price point. iTunes was Soundjam. Final Cut Pro belonged to Macromedia. DVD Studio Pro was developed by Astarte.
Personally, i don't care who wins the "My Billionaire CEO can beat your Billionaire CEO" contest (if there even is one). I'm not important enough to care. I'm just looking forward to seeing what audio editing and video compositing software comes bundled with my next iBook.
Re:Spending spree (Score:1)
I last read that the Mac release is pending [macworld.com], but that was 2 years ago.
I'm still waiting, and hell ain't getting any colder. At least Apple is up front about killing Windows support.
Re:Spending spree (Score:2)
65% of those 200,000 already ran Logic on Macs, that's about 130,000 Mac versions VS 70,000 Windows versions.
Re:Spending spree (Score:2)
You mean 70,000. There are 130k copies already running on Macs, and about 70k on PCs.
I agree with you however about the software platform. Unless they are just hobbiest.
Bye, bye Mac Cubase (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Bye, bye Mac Cubase (Score:1)
Re:Bye, bye Mac Cubase (Score:2)
Why? Apple is not forcing anyone to use Logic. And I seriously doubt they will bundle it as an "iApp." Steinberg just started taking preorders for Cubase SX for OS X.
I'm a musician of about 35 years, and a Mac user since 1994, and I use Cubase.
Apple wants to be like SGI back when you had to buy one to run SoftImage and Flame...
Audio iMovie over Final Cut Pro (Score:2, Interesting)
A free-with-purchase-of-a-Mac audio application... what would it look like? 8 channel recording, mixing, auido cd burning right from the app...what else? And what about microphone/midi input? I just bought Deck [bias-inc.com] LE 3.0 (waiting for the 3.5 update for OS X!)... perhaps it would be a bit like that?
Re:Audio iMovie over Final Cut Pro (Score:1)
Re:Audio iMovie over Final Cut Pro (Score:4, Informative)
It's only got 4 tracks, and no CD-burning built in, but it's free, and comes in Mac and PC flavours (for now)
You can download it from http://www.emagic.de/german/education/download.ht
Re:Audio iMovie over Final Cut Pro (Score:2)
Still, we can safely say that ProTools Free and Logic Fun have totally failed to create the kind of consumer buzz that iMovie has been able to do for video. So in that regard Apple is probably better suited to be offering free audio apps. It would be better for us consumers, I should say, and the audio software market as a whole.
Besides, I downloaded Logic Fun at the URL you gave and it doesn't install or even run in Mac OS X which makes it a dead product and nearly useless in my book.
Thoughts... (Score:2)
2.A bit of Job's vengeance for Billg screwing him over all those years?
3.A bad idea to discontinue the Windows versions as this will surely encourage Billg to retaliate (no OfficeX updates?)
4.A good idea to get the market to sit up and notice those fancy Apple samba footwork moves?
5.An omen of more to come?
Re:Thoughts... (Score:1)
Re:Thoughts... (Score:2)
I had a similar thought, but not for the reasons you outline. I am not so worried about ticking off Bill Gates as I am the thousands of Windows users who currently are buyers of this software. While I realize that Apple's intention is likely to use this as a push to move people to their hardware, this is an awfully steep slope to push people down. They are more likely to balk at the move and instead spend their money on a "competitive upgrade" to a competitor's version.
It might have been a better idea to rework the Window's software with a Mac-ish look and feel. Get the users used to the ease of use provided by a Mac within the Windows framework, then phase out the Windows version afterward. This way, the culture shock is less and the user base has had some first-hand experience in what makes an Apple [apple.com] interface great.
Course, then we are pouring tens of thousands of dollars into a version of software which Apple fully intends to end-of-life ASAP. Not an easy decision.
Re:Thoughts... (Score:2)
After Video Apple's going for audio (Score:2, Interesting)
They already have iTunes/iPod, they Get Emagic, now who's NeXT ? Steinberg [steinberg.de] ?
When apple will hold the Audio market, they'll just need to push a little more their switch capaing [apple.com].
The funiest about this this is that 10/15 years ago apple had to sign some contract with Apple records (no URL to give) the record compagny that did the beattles, in order to keep their name : to keep their name they had to limit the Sound capabilities of all apple Hardware
Killing (Score:3, Informative)
not to be a troll, but it is stupid business decisions like this that hampers the growth of apple. steve jobs is good for some things, but i don't think long range planning is one of them (he is great for revitalizing the 'look and feel' of things though).
i wonder if stuff like this is filed into the memory of bill gates when he negotiates with apple? it could be on a list of reasons to discontinue ms office, or IE (no great loss that one).
Re:Killing (Score:3, Informative)
I think what the Big Steve has done over the last few years constitutes quite a bit more than "revitalizing the loook and feel of things." Give the man some credit, for god's sake. His company is not only back from near-death, but by some measures one of the healthiest computer companies around - and this through a tight-belted economy! "Look and feel" my butt. So to speak.
off the windows version is fine with me, but when it is 35% (inferred from statement that macintosh is 65%) of revenues sounds rather stupid.
I think the idea here involves more strategy than a) make software product, b) sell software product for more than it costs to make it, c) make profit.
I think we can count on a consumer and a professional application to come out of such a purchase. "iAudio" would come free on every Mac and would allow pimply teenage wannabes pretend they're DJ's, "Audio Studio Pro" on the other hand would sell for a bit less than it's competitors and have the tight hardware integration and high polish typical of Apple software. With the former, they caputure consumer sales of iMacs and iBooks. With the later they sell pro hardware and potentially capture a large portion of the pro audio software market.
What about iMovie and Final Cut Pro? I forget what Apple bought to get the core guts of these apps going...but whatever it was, if they had cut off the Windows versions to do it, would you still call it stupid after the sucess of the resulting products? I don't see how you can.
Re:Killing (Score:2)
"iAudio" would come free on every Mac and would allow pimply teenage wannabes pretend they're DJ's
I wholeheartedly agree with the content of your post but not entirely with the sentiment -- that's an awfully dismissive statement. Not everybody wants to be overwhelmed by options (as I am whenever I fire up a digital audio app) and I would bet there's a large sub-population of musicians that would really appreciate a relatively simple 4-track audio recording/editing/mixing app. Creative people often want to get right into the creating, not knob-twiddling -- not that there's anything inherently wrong with knob-twiddling!
It's possible to get really, really good results from the iApps suite; with these programs Apple has taken the burden of much of the "process" away and let people focus much more on "content". This tactic can only be a good thing -- when people get comfortable enough with editing and arranging "content" and want to focus more on "process", they move themselves up to the Pro level application programs. It's a brilliant, empowering strategy and I'm extremely pleased with the results so far.
~jeff
Re:Killing (Score:2)
I must have been unclear in my above statements because I am one of those people! and anything I might have said which leads one to think the contrary is in error
My wife bought me a new Martin [mguitar.com] a few months ago. I bought Deck [bias-inc.com] LE and an iMic [griffintechnology.com] hoping to amuse myself doing some recording...but what I really want is iMovie for audio!
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Killing (Score:2)
Deck is a wonderful multitrack program, with only one flaw, albeit a major one if you reply on MIDI sequencing.... It doesn't.
Deck was the original software that came with Digidesign hardware. Then when Macs got native audio support built in, OSC (you've got to love that name... Our Stinking Company!) gave it native Apple SoundManager support.
I was a DECK II user from right after Macromedia bought the program from OSC. I had to run Metro synched up to DECK for the MIDI. It still works that way, now Cakewalk owns Metro.
I switched to CubaseVST when BIAS was taking way too long to get sound card support (for anything other than the Korg 1212) into Deck.
If you don't need MIDI, check out Deck.
Re:Killing (Score:3, Informative)
FCP was being developed by Macromedia. I don't think it ever had a name, and I'm sure MM would have made a Windows version.
Re:Killing (Score:3, Interesting)
If the PC version consumed 70% of their development and support costs, but only provided 35% of their revenue, then it's probably a sound business decision to cut it off, regardless of the advantage Apple would gain from the software moving to a single platform only.
Killing off the non Mac versions (Score:1)
That seems unlikely.
Cross platform software means portable software and will/should mean that when the next major OS paradigm shift happens it will be easier to update your application. In a well architectured program the fixes will not be platform specific and the project would be generally forced to be better designed in the first place.
Support costs for windows could probably be dramatically reduced by no longer supporting the windows 9x versions (flakey crud that they are and i still use more than i would like)
I think it would make sense to offer a lesser/crippled/promotional version of Appple software for windows and using the same user interface for both.
Apple are already provide windows versions of products like Claris aka AppleWorks and Quicktime for windows.
http://www.apple.com/appleworks/
I feel much safer knowing that a program works on more than one platform and it increases my confidence that the program will find its niche and survive. Who knows what platform we wil be using in 10 years time, the less portable a program is the less likely it is to be ported to the latest and greatest Operating System (even then see how long it took befor Adobe ported apps to OS X).
Re:Killing off the non Mac versions (Score:2)
Re:Killing off the non Mac versions (Score:2)
That would only work if the apps were recompiled to x86. Unless the app is open source, each manufacturer will have to do this themselves to make their app cross platform. Many manufacturers may do this, but Apple sure as hell won't.
Re:Killing off the non Mac versions (Score:2)
PPCs are lower in heat and tend to have a smaller size. At a certain point of lost marketshare, Intel is going to sink to price parity and then become the more expensive solution. At that point, the el-cheapo whitebox solution will have a PPC chip in it, not an x86. 5-8 years is a lifetime in the hardware chip wars.
Very Likely (Score:4, Insightful)
That seems unlikely
No, I would expect that to be the case. Usually it is that way when you release a product on both platforms. I know this, I've done it.
Your costs on the PC side are much higher-- both in initial development, and in support. This is due to the poor quality of the development environment for Windows and the poor quality of the machines people buy- bad power supplies cause memory corruption, causes your program to crash and the computer illiterate mother isn't going to think that maybe she shouldn't have bought a computer from some fly by night company for $400-- she's going to wonder why your software doens't work.
Developing software for Windows is also more expensive because in order to get a unit of sales you have to spend more money to reach the customers-- there's a lot more competition. Whereas on the Mac side, getting the same unit of sales is a lot cheaper because theirs less competition for it.
The reason companies support windows at all (given this situation) is that marketing guys are idiots and not businessmen-- they never take into account the costs of development and costs of sales, they decide based on the size of the market. And non-marketing CEOs believe them.
There's a great opportunity for Mac software developers... but so few have taken it, that apple has started doing it itself.
Re:Killing (Score:2, Insightful)
Okay, anyway, get real. Mac software sales is more profitable for Bill Gates than most of his other departments. Sure it doesn't beat the Windows Office department, but Mac Office was a girl with expensive tastes. If he felt like dropping Mac Office on a whim, he wouldn't dedicate massive human and financial resources to the Macintosh on a yearly basis.
You say "no great loss", but the great loss comes out to be about 20-30% of MS's yearly profits.
Point of the matter: Microsoft ain't ditching Mac. Really. Gates ain't stupid. He knows Macs have slower obsolescence than PCs and Mac users will not buy into a company that destroyed their favorite machines. Killing Mac by ending development will send the die-hard Mac guys (some of which are already toying with PPC distros of Linux) to Linux.
Then you'd have what I call a "Bad Day"
Re:Killing (Score:2)
The original poster's comment about IE WAS wrong. But mainly because it is, as you point out, free so profit isn't part of the equation. As for Mac Software being more profitable it has been argued in some studies (I'm not brave enough to say 'proven') that Mac software development IS more profitable PER CAPITA for a couple of reasons. (I'm too lazy to look up the study, sorry. But if you're really interested I'm sure you can Google as well as I can)
1) The average Mac user spends more on software than the average PC user. I don't believe the study went into WHY this was the case but I would imagine it is because a higher percentage of mac users are buying macs to DO something specific rather than just to "get a computer" or to use a bundled office app. Those specific things (desktop publishing, video, audio etc.) usually require a lot of expensive 3rd party software. I wonder though if the advent of iApps bundled with the machine is changing this dynamic.
2) Less competition. A small software publisher on the PC might have a much bigger *potential* market but it also has many more competitors for that market. On the mac your potential market is smaller but it is easier to gain 'mindshare'. Among mac users there are lots of little software developers that have become "household" names that wouldn't even be a blip on the radar on the PC side of things
3) This was not from that study and my own personal experience is too limited to say this BUT I'll stick my neck out and say it anyway in typical slashdot style as unsupported heresay -- I've HEARD that Macs ARE in fact easier to write, test, re-write, sell, patch, repatch etc than PC's especially for those using Cocoa. I'm not in a possition to judge whether this is a myth or not so take it for what it is worth.
There is an unrelated reason why Microsoft continues to make software for the mac. The market may be small but it is big enough for a competitor to thrive and profit in. As long as that is the case Microsoft will sell Office and IE will be available on the mac just to deny a profitable safe haven to a competitor.
Re:Killing (Score:1)
Re:Killing (Score:2)
Even that 35% of Emagic's revenue is INSIGNIFICANT to Apple. Apple is NOT buying this company (or any of their other recent purchases) for their pitiful revenues. They are buying them so that Apple HARDWARE (where Apple makes it's REAL money) will dominate a certain niche markets. The software is a means to the end of selling hardware - if it pays for itself through software sales thats just a bonus.
not to be a troll, but it is stupid business decisions like this that hampers the growth of apple. steve jobs is good for some things, but i don't think long range planning is one of them (he is great for revitalizing the 'look and feel' of things though).
Let me see if I get this straight: You are criticising Steve Jobs for his lack of business acumen an long range planning. Yet your business advise is that a company with $6 billion dollars in annual revenue should make software for it's competitors just so it can preserve a few hundred thousand dollars of revenue?
Re:Killing (Score:2)
This is a lack of revenue. The pay $$ for something, and then get very little return.
The windows comment was based on the office v.X situation. Not a good idea for Jobs to piss off Gates over something insignificant, to lose something of value. Gates has shown he is willing to lose $$ in the short term, on hopes of banking in the long term (XBOX).
Gates has a history of doing this, and doing it well. Jobs has a history of making a big splash, tapering off, losing a bunch of money, and quitting. The only reason he came back was the ineptitude of Apple as a company. If it had true direction, Jobs would not be needed, nor wanted. Wait a couple of years, I am quite sure he will bow out again, "to pursue other interests" or some such b.s.
ANd hardware is not the market to make money, otherwise it would be Intel telling Microsoft what to do, not vice versa (ie optimizing the P4 for WinXP, not the other way around). Just ask Mr Dell where he makes most of his money nowadays.
As you can tell, today is the first day of me trying to quit smoking, so this probably wont have to be dealt with in a few days... j'espair.
Re:Killing - brain cells (Score:2)
That's funny. Final Cut is $1000. So is Cinema tools. Shake and Rayz sell for tens of thousands of dollars right now, I doubt they will be coming "pre loaded" on machines.
Sure, Apple took final cut and made an iMovie version, and that is free, but that just causes lots of final cut sales. final cut has been a HUGE success-- pretty much taking over the low to mid- range video and film editing industry.
But then, I don't think you really know what you're talking about so you wouldn't have known that.
Not a good idea for Jobs to piss off Gates over something insignificant, to lose something of value. Gates has shown he is willing to lose $$ in the short term, on hopes of banking in the long term
Yeah, you really don't know what your'e talking about. Office is on the MAc because its extreemely profitable for Microsoft. I know this for a fact. If MS wanted to withhold it, they would be in trouble because Apple has a contractual obligation from them for it-- (and I'm not talking about the agreement that expired.) MS can't withdraw OFfice for the MAc, and they won't because even MS likes the couple billion in revenue it generates each year.
ANd hardware is not the market to make money, otherwise it would be Intel telling Microsoft what to do, not vice versa
I don't know of any evidence that Microsoft tells intel what to do. Intel tunes its microcode to support windows because it knows windows is a large customer. But Intel is not beholden to Microsoft.
Since "hardware isn't the place to make money" do you think Sony is stupid and should go into the software business?
Do you think Apple doesn't make money from software?
Interesting.
Re:Killing (Score:2)
Yes, very good consumer tools for driving hardware sales to people that would NEVER spend the money on the original professional tools. If you are actually IN THE MARKET for these tools, (i.e. a professional with the money to spend) iMovie and iDVD don't cut it and you BUY Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro. Apple is getting ALL the revenue they were ever going to get from selling professional tools AND driving hardware sales with bundled consumer apps.
As for the pro tools not being on windows - Apple hardware has a reasonable hope of dominating the markets these apps are targetted at. If they are successful Apple can have their cake and eat it too making $$$ on ALL the hardware and on the software in that niche. Selling these apps on windows just throws half of that $$$ out the "window" (if you'll pardon the pun)
Not a good idea for Jobs to piss off Gates over something insignificant, to lose something of value.
You're on crack! Gates is NOT going to suspend development of Office or IE for the mac because of an audio application with a piddling 70,000 windows users! As you point out that's insignificant. The entire audio, video, creative market Apple is going after isn't worth that much to Gates and he views Apples competition for that niche as fair game. Micro$oft develops the software for three reasons.
- It makes a tidy profit.
- If Microsoft isn't making that profit someone else WILL and with that profit and a safe haven without any competition from Microsoft a competitor has an opening to make a move into competing on the windows platform starting with users that need to interoperate with macs or UNIX. Apple is safe as long as they keep their marketshare large enough for a company (microsoft OR a competitor) to make a profit.
- Anti-trust litigation insurance. Who knows how trying to kill their one competitor on the desktop would play in court? Probably not very well.
- Continued development of Office and IE was part of the quid pro quo for Apple dropping their patent infringement lawsuit against Windows 95. (this may no longer be an issue since the patent cross-licensing agreement between Apple and Microsoft has lapsed. But we really aren't privy to the details of the settlment agreement)
ANd hardware is not the market to make money, otherwise it would be Intel telling Microsoft what to do, not vice versaThat is true to some extent, but hardware is the business Apple is stuck with whether they like it or not. Attempting a transition from a very large Hardware company (around 6 billion in revenue) to a small software company with (a few hundred million in revenue) would likely be too traumatic to survive. Even if all things being equal they could survive, all things are NOT equal, Apple software inc. would be in direct competition with Microsoft and that is bad place to be. Apple has decide to play the hand they were dealt (or chose back in the early history of PC's) and focus on selling hardware. There's plenty of money to be made in the hardware business, especially when you are also a hybrid company that can use your own software to give that hardware unique advantages that translate directly into higher profit margins than your competitors.
And Apple does have a very nice software business on the side. It's just not big enough to tempt them away from their hardware business or to sustain them if they ever wanted to leave the hardware business. Maybe all these recent purchases will join FinalCut Pro in a suite of creative apps that would represent a more significant revenue stream but it would have to be very significant to justify
This just sucks (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm kind of in shock right now - this just sucks! Good move for Apple, though - Emagic makes great software and is a well-run company.
Re:This just sucks (Score:2)
Re:This just sucks (Score:1)
Cubase will still exist for windows and is better (Score:1)
My history with emagic on windows is awful.
I used to be a very happy Atari ST owner running emagic's Notator and then fell for their marketing about the windows logic being the new best thing.. so I bought it.. I was a student at the time so it cost me an arm and a leg (or so it felt at the time)
I then found cakewalk (which I always found difficult to take seriously but it was heaps better than logic)
Unfortunately
Re:Cubase will still exist for windows and is bett (Score:1)
Re:Cubase will still exist for windows and is bett (Score:2)
Apple on a buying streak (Score:4, Informative)
Where are they getting all this money???
And from what I understand, in all cases they are looking at discontinuing Windows support and posibly Linux as well.
I am all for Apple having strong authoring tools, but to buy out software that people rely on to do work and then drop support for their platform is pretty shadey. It is forcing us to move to a Mac or to find some other software, and in some cases, all the other software is a few generations behind.
I may not mind getting a Mac, but please don't force me into it.
-Tim
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
Pretty crazy.
Info on their stock and cash position is here [business2.com]
adding more info (Score:2, Informative)
cash: $12.17/share
shares outstanding: 355.7 million
total cash on hand: $4,328,869,000
Re:adding more info (Score:2)
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
iMovie appeared as the super-easy, free-with-the-box, video editing application. Suddenly everyone thinks they're Stephen freakin' Spielberg. Suddenly college kids are asking what kind of discount they can get on Pro-level video editing software. Suddenly Windows XP gets hip and includes iMovie-esque video editing software.
Seems to me that in some ways the whole industry benefits. Other software makers benefit from the increased awareness and even other platforms get new neat-o stuff so they can keep up with Cupertino.
I realize that's an over simplification...but this kind of news isn't all bad for non-Mac users.
Where are they getting all this money???
Heh. Where are you not realizing that Apple is a huge company that makes a lot of money? I think we get so used to thinking of Apple as "little Apple," and "niche-player Apple" that we forget they are one of the largest and healthiest computer makers around. There is a vast difference between a relatively small marketshare for the platform and the quite respectable sales they do compared to any other single PC maker. Heck, they probably have enough money under the breakroom couch pillows to buy Emagic and three more companies as well.
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:3, Interesting)
But I don't want a Windows or a Mac solution.
I am happy with my Linux farm. With an investment of 500 machines, I don't want to have to change because software had been rendered useless due to some marketing strategy.
From what I understand from others in the movie industry, the studios are looking at packages for a feature, not packages for long term use. I think all of this stems from the way software vendors create a product, rest on their laurels, and then get replaced by somebody else.
Being in a smaller shop, I don't know if we can play that game. We are trying to finish a 3d movie using composer as our compositing software and it is a major bottle neck. Composer is good, don't get me wrong, but the software runs on older, slower SGI boxes. Shake and Rayz are what we are looking at in the future, but neither may be arround for Linux in 2 years.
-Tim
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
Apple's xserve is showing to be pretty good on the benchmark scale. http://www.xinet.com/benchmarks/benchmarks.2002/
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
To paraphrase Francis Ford Coppola, "Somewhere out there there's a six year old girl with a camcorder who's changing the future of film."
Coppola loves [apple.com] the G4 iMac with iMovie, by the way.
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:1)
Heh. Where are you not realizing that Apple is a huge company that makes a lot of money? I think we get so used to thinking of Apple as "little Apple," and "niche-player Apple" that we forget they are one of the largest and healthiest computer makers around. There is a vast difference between a relatively small marketshare for the platform and the quite respectable sales they do compared to any other single PC maker.
I'm glad someone pointed this out. Apple is ONE company that controls 5% (not sure if that's current, but it's what most people quote) of a market. One out of twenty computers bought is a Mac. Macs have a larger profit margin than beige boxes. That means Apple makes more money than the other PC companies. Yes, their market share could be larger, but it's nothing to sneeze at, especially when you consider that they sell a fundamentally different computer from the beige box companies.
%5 is completely innacurate (Score:2)
I don't think Apple has ever had only %5 of the market. And I'm certain the way this is calcuated- counting new machines sold from only *some* sources- is wrong. For instance, the way the %5 market share figure is calculated, ALL apple sales made thru the Apple store and thru local Apple dealers are ignored. Ising' that a huge chunk of apples sales?
Furthermroe, "Marketshare" is the number of machines that are in use-- that people can sell software into." That is not the same as the "number of machines sold". And its certainly not the same for "consumer" or "business" machines.
If you're making a video editing program, say, you don't assume that every business machine sold is a potential candidate-- cause a large percentage of those machines are servers, not client machines.
At one point Apple had %25 of the market. This was 1997 or so. And this was based on a scientific evaluation of the maket.
I think Apple's market share has slipped and is only %15 of the market now.
There are a lot of factos that people forget-- most PCs are discarded within 2 years, while a Mac's useful life is about 4 years. A large number of PCs end up essentially DOA because they die within the first year and are replaced, etc. And on top of that, most Apple sales are not counted by the Microsoft paid "Analysts" who say they have %5 of the market.
That %5 figure is due to the fact that hey can't say "zero %" and microsoft wants them to be enough to be competition but not enough to look like a threat.
Its essentially, a completely fabricated figure.
Apple has all kinds of $ (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:1)
Just think if the world was the other way, with Windows with the small, but growing market share, and Mac OS getting besieged by Linux and Windows!
We'd see quotes: "I may not mind getting a Wintel, but please don't force me into it."
Thanks to some of the more manipulative techniques and basically piracy on MS's part, you ended up initially buying a Wintel, because of previous market pressures. Now, it's the other way and Apple is evil because of it?
Honestly, if you don't think MS is shady...then I have no hope for you.
Use the best tool for the job. (Score:1)
The FSF strives to create the same situation as you are describing. The FSF wants free software to be the best. If it is the best then people will use it because it is the best tool for the job.
Take a look at the FSF Web site [fsf.org]. They go into this subject quite deeply. The perspective is a little different. They expand on how using non-free software enslaves the users.
Up is down, slavery is freedom. (Score:2)
This is on topic because we're talking about software CHOICE- and whether Apple's pruchase of Emagic reduces it or not.
The FSF is right out of orwell-- they're NON-FREE software is "free" and those who use other software are "slaves".
First off, "free" software will never be the best. The draconian terms of the GPL mean that most professional developers will support BSD or free licenses, ratehr than the GPL. This means the GNU software gets less mindshare.
Secondly, you are not enslaved by non-gnu software. In fact, you are more free, as you can ship a product and actually sell it along with supporting the (truely) free software.
The communists in Russia claimed they were going to make everyone free, while they were actually acting to enslave everyone. FSF advocates this same party line-- you don't have the right to the output of your labor (if its software) it belongs to anyone who "needs" it.
Open Source (not "free") is a good idea-- and it will succeed where it does give people extra choices and provide good quality. Linux is a good example of this, and OpenBSD and its projects are another good example.
But you will never get innovation out of open source and certainly not out of free software. This is because innovation is really expensive, and there is no profitable business model yet for making back those costs with open or free software.
This is why proprietary software will continue to rule when it comes to innovative categories-- but commodity software, such as operating systems, will become open source.... because when its a commodity, the improvements you get are more valuable than the lost income. When its innovative, there are less people who can improve it and the expense is too high-- you have to recoup it.
Media software is the most innovative group right now-- therefore, Apple buying these media companies is giving it a lock on innovation. In 10 years, this will all be commodity software and the best software will be open sourced-- but only because the createor chose to give it away.
Certainly not because FSF crated it-- I waited a decade for GNU, and their failure to deliver the OS was for exactly these reasons... and that's why its called Linux.
There's a connection there.
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
The bank. Apple has (had?) about $4b USD in liquid assets and short-term investments. They don't run a debt, they don't lose money (anymore), and they spend wisely.
From http://biz.yahoo.com/e/l/a/AAPL.html [yahoo.com] (Apple's SEC filings on May 14th, 2001, numbers as of March 31st, 2001, dollars in millions):
People can say what they want about Steve Jobs, but he's got a lot of room to manouvre right now.
--Dan
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
I don't think they should discontinue linux support, though. It seems that people are starting to move to Linux farms away from Windows shops, so that could be a big blow for Mac-only software. Only time and revenue will tell what they'll do.
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:1)
Apple has a Market Cap of US$6.154 Billion [yahoo.com] as of this post.
While you may consider this shady, perhaps it's Apple's revenge for Microsoft buying up the company that was set to release the most anticipated game ever for MacOS and releasing it only for XBox (despite what Bungie's webpage says, I'll believe there's a Mac/PC version of HALO when it's on store shelves). Maybe they're buying up companies that MSFT has hinted at purchasing, so Apple decides to beat them to the punch.
If these are the rules that Microsoft is playing by then Apple can either follow suit or sit around and wait for MS to buy up these companies and pull another HALO on them. I personally think that since Apple has emerged once again as the only decent competitor to MS on the desktop, the longer they're around, the better off we all are.
Said In The Voice Of An Annoying Dell Spokesboy: (Score:1)
"Dude, you're getting a Mac!"
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
I may not mind getting a Mac, but please don't force me into it.
The small businesses that were using Macs with QuickBooks Pro don't empathize with you, I'm afraid. A LOT of Mac users were forced to convert to Win by the loss of that tool; these are people that otherwise the Mac would be great for. It's indeed too bad for you, but that's how the ball bounces--and frankly, I'm glad to see that Apple has learned to use this strategy for themselves.
You're nor forced. (Score:2)
First, Apple is, and always has been a large successful company with a very large warchest. The years when they were loosing money weren't nearly as bad as they were made out to be by the press- cause the press are idiots who think any company that looses 700Million one year is going under, but a company with $7billion in liquid assets can handlea couple down years.
And buy lots of these really tiny companies.
Secondly, of course they are discontinuing Windows support and Linux support. There is no reason to continue unprofitable and secondary platform support.
If you want to work with digital media, the Mac is where its at and it has been since Apple invented the market by releasing Quicktime in 1991.
There's nothing shady about what they are doing. If you don't like the Logic product, switch to a competitor. Soemehow, though, I doubt you've ever used logic and are just complaining.
As to force, this is a silly thing to complain about- you aren't forced to do anything. ITs not force when you freely choose to use the better project.
OH, Apple! You made the Mac SO GOOD I was *FORCED* into buying one! How dare you!
Come on, its obvious you're looking for an excuse to dislike Apple. People have been grasping at these straws since 1984. Its unfortunate that our society hates intellectualism so much that it bashes companies that put out great products and praises companies that use anti-competitive measures to succeed. Microsoft is a half assed operation all around, while Apple is first class...
I think there's a connection between this and the pro-football anti-education attitude of our school system.
Re:You're nor forced. (Score:2)
Shake and Rayz were the leading up and coming software for all platforms for CG studios. They had support for many platforms and were doing well.
Apple has purchased both and stated that they can not promise support or continuation of development for this software for any platform other than the Mac.
So, if I need to buy some composotie software and I need it to have some of the cutting edge features, I will be forced into using a Mac. That is what I don't appreciate. I want to move to a platform because it is the best, not because they have made the best business deals.
I truly do like Apple and the machines, about once a month I go to the local computer stores and drool over the ibooks and g4 towers. Someday I will own one. But I want this to be on my own time.
-Tim
Re:Apple on a buying streak (Score:2)
Great for Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Great for Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Please do not flame me with two dozen sourceforge URLs pointing to unknown or half-finished projects. The key descriptor here being that can sucessfully compete with the commercial big boys. And do please remember that I'm not saying it can't be done...only that it hasn't yet.
Re:Great for Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, for all the posts on Slashdot that point out the failures of the commercial software industry (most of them with the subject "Great for Linux"), the fact remains that there is no competitive open source software for these sorts of applications. There's no open source equivalent of Flame, or Shake, or Boujou, or Audio Logic. There's nothing out there that even comes close.
Tclosed-source software model may have flaws, but despite those flaws it has one thing going for it: software.
Logic Audio Platinum under OSX (Score:1)
Find your niche... (Score:1)
media machine (Score:1)
Re:media machine (Score:1)
Logic will be improved by having Apple help integrate it with OS X and the other media apps. It will be better than it is now, and there will likely be a reduced-functionality free version a la iMovie. A win for those who use Logic on Macs already, and a win for those who already use Macs and would like to start playing with audio.
My guess is that killing Windows development is less about cutting off Windows users than about avoiding the greater support costs for a platform that makes no money for Apple.
At any rate, companies buy other companies and change their charter all the time. MS is famous for this. Get over it.
Press Release (Score:1)
Apple Acquires Emagic
CUPERTINO, Calif. and HAMBURG, Germany, July 1
"Emagic has set the industry standard for professional music creation and production," said Sina Tamaddon, Apple's senior vice president of Applications. "We're very excited to have the Emagic team join Apple and create more amazing products for musicians."
Macintosh®-based products account for over 65 percent of Emagic's current revenues. Emagic's Windows-based product offerings will be discontinued on September 30, 2002.
Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Apple is committed to bringing the best personal computing experience to students, educators, creative professionals and consumers around the world through its innovative hardware, software and Internet offerings.
This press release contains certain "forward-looking" statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are based on management's current expectations and are subject to uncertainty and changes in circumstances. Actual results may vary materially from the expectations contained herein. The forward-looking statements contained herein include statements about the consummation of the transaction with Emagic and benefits of the pending transaction with Emagic. Factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those described herein include the inability to obtain regulatory approvals and the inability to successfully integrate the Emagic business. Apple Computer is under no obligation to (and expressly disclaims any such obligation to) update or alter its forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.
NOTE TO EDITORS: For additional information visit Apple's PR website ( www.apple.com/pr/ ), or call Apple's Media Helpline at (408) 974-2042.
Apple, the Apple logo, Mac, Mac OS and Macintosh are trademarks of Apple. Other company and product names may be trademarks of their respective owners.
SOURCE: Apple Computer, Inc.
The Next Step (Score:2, Insightful)
The whole SWITCH campaign may be part of this, but I'd hope they're going to do much more. With these companies come their lists of registered users. I would not be surprised if Apple didn't offer favourable deals on hardware purchase to help users of these packages move from Windows to Mac. This is one way to reduce the bad PR that comes from such, frankly, Microsoft-like actions, and it could even be turned into good PR given the right spin.
But are they going to do this?
Re:The Next Step (Score:2)
You're right!
They should send a coupon to every one of their Windows custoemrs which entitles them to a free copy of the Mac version of the software if they decide to switch to the Mac platform ("just send in a reciept for the purchase of a Mac in the past 3 months and we'll send you a free copy of the software")
Or something like that. Offer people a small incentive to switch and even if they don't you maintain their positive opinion.
It's the Environment (Score:1)
The Environment internals haven't seen much development lately other than a few new modules.
Now imagine that Apple uses this technology to make environment.framework integrating it with low-level midi and audio events and high-level apple events. All developers can publish environment modules.
Talk about digitial hub: doorbell plays your latest riff, a keyboard run starts the coffee, pet door takes a snapshot and mails it to your phone, sprinklers dance,
Big news in the audio industry (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Logic Audio is quickly becoming one of the most used pro audio sequencers. I'm not sure where it stands next to Cubase and Protools (the other two big names), but it has gained a lot of market share lately.
2. We've been waiting for the OS X version of Logic for over a year now. This damn well better mean that it come out really soon, otherwise Apple owns a company that only creates MacOS 9 software!
choice in the marketplace (Score:1)
Historically, Apple has done a decent job of trying to build its success on the strengths of its hardware and software platforms, and should be commended for this. Now, it looks like they are willing to do what they can to force consumers to operate on their hardware no matter what. Previously, Apple's more cut-throat decisions could be seen as specifically targetting Microsoft and company, but the primary victim of this kind of tactic is the consumer.
The most galling thing about this is how this treats Apple's own customers. By buying up this firm, they picked up a non-trivial group of Windows users as customers. They way they greet these new customers amounts to saying, "Thanks you for buying Emagic. Sadly, your choice in platforms doesn't fit Apple's plans for niche market domination. Please reward us for canceling support for the tool you value by buying one of our machines. Otherwise, go check your own filesystems."
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Apple seems to be shooting itself in the foot by getting stuck on hardware. By sacrificing sales of software to non-Apple owners, they are vastly limiting their potential income. I firmly believe they are getting much better margins on their software products, which suggests that they really ought to be using the hardware to sell the software, not vice-versa.
Re:choice in the marketplace (Score:1)
"niche market domination."
Remember that the next time Microsoft purchases a Global Market Leader and buries the competition on its own platform, considering at 95% of the market share that GML doesn't even run a Mac version. Afterall its economically not beneficial to their bottom lines.
I expect the DoJ to monitor any and all activities that both Microsoft and Apple do. To think they do not is to be truly naiive.
Hardware too! (Score:1)
Oh, who am I kidding. If Apple makes a mixer it'll still cost tons of money.
My take? Apple is driving towards a future of multimedia as structured MPEG-4 streams, with easy multi-platform exchange. Logic already does ProTools' Open Media Format, which has been the closest thing to a DAW interchange format. But a structured multimedia document format, like full MPEG4 profiles, is much more likely to end up in audio manufacturers' hardware too, making for seamless integration between some future Apple version of Logic and those popular Fostex, Akai, Roland, Mackie and Alesis hard-disk recording-studios-in-a-box.
Simple Economics - Apple Bank Balance $4Billion + (Score:1)
Sensible Plan... (Score:3, Informative)
Strategy: Buy Low, Sell High.
How low can the stock values of companies go? Since last fall, many in the tech sector have certainly been trying to find out. This is a great time to buy companies or technologies and lately Apple has been wisely acting when opportunities arise. Even if Emagic GmbH, Spruce Technologies, Nothing Real, and Zayante in the last year had all been privately held, they would have still been sold at a favourable price compared to buying them before the
Strategy: Niche Market Growth.
It's clear that Apple wants to defend the Macintosh strength as a music & audio creation tool in the long term. Since pro audio software has been lagging on the march to MacOS X, Apple is at least applying heat to developers if not exactly lighting a fire under them. Logic and associated software & hardware on the Mac will mean that Digidesign, Twelve Tone Systems(Cakewalk), MOTU and Steinberg will have to take the market segment more seriously (although MOTU & Digidesign have historically been great friends of the Mac already). The way it's looking is that a larger majority of pro audio will be done on the Mac. Can Steinberg, Twelve Tone et al. risk being caught with their pants around their ankles if this happens?
Strategy: Technology Cross-Pollination.
Now that Apple has a substantial video-production, streaming, compression, audio & other technologies, they may consider adding many good features from one to another and developing truly feature-rich packages. It dosen't take a dreamer to see the possibilities, from unheard-of professional solutions to trickle-down pro capabilities in new iSoftware (eg. look how technologies purchased from Marcromedia were crafted into Final Cut Pro & iMovie). This is one area that users, down the road, can really cash out with if Apple encourages the flow of technologies between it's new divisions.
Strategy: Sorry, Mac-Only.
One thing that is a bit sad about this, ironically enough, is the immediate cancellation of the Windows versions of some software (notably Shake & Logic) with this strategy. While perhaps more upfront than an MS-style purchase and feature-deprivation in non-Windows versions, Apple still isn't making any friends (and perhaps losing potentially loyal customers & money) by doing this. Still, one cannot say that it's not what happened to Mac users through the late 1990s (even now - look at Bungie) but it would be better karma to be more merciful once the shoe is on the other foot. Apple would be smart to mitigate the anger of Windows users by offering discounts on upgrades to the next Mac version.
Next Strategy: More Vertical Markets.
The Macintosh still has a real chance at gaining significant market share if it can be a strong alternative in enough vertical market segments. Apple is rightly building on it's strenghts, but should diversify enough so that the Macintosh is not pegged as only good for those niches (remember what happened to the Amiga? Games machine!)
A Holy Grail almost as worthy as dominating the business market for Apple is the scientific & engineering markets, often with high software margins all around. A purchase or substantial investment in Autodesk [autodesk.com] à la the MS $150M in Apple would make Apple a huge player in the professional engineering, architecture, and manufacturing industries overnight. Considering Autodesk is not the most expensive stock [yahoo.com] right now, with a market cap of approximately USD$1.4B, Apple could conceivably purchase the entire operations in cash and still have about $2B in the bank. Autodesk's Design Segment [autodesk.com] develops AutoCAD, Autodesk Inventor, Mechanical Desktop, Autodesk Architectural Desktop, Architectural Studio, Autodesk Map, Lightscape, and Autodesk Land Desktop, to name a few (most industry-standard in their fields) and the Discreet Segment [discreet.com] develops 3D Studio MAX, Animator Studio, flame, inferno, smoke, combustion, cinestream, plasma, cleaner, MPEG supercharger, Topper, and many others.
With a stable of industry-dominating software products as great as this, such a purchase (or even investment ensuring MacOS X compatibility) would send massive shockwaves across the engineering & architectural markets, and ripples in the scientific & pro graphics markets who are by now used to this. No immediate cancellation of the Windows version would be posible here, rather a years-long strategy to ensure first Mac versions and then Mac feature-parity. A purchase like this too rich for Apple's blood? Try something smaller like privatley-held ESRI [esri.com] (makers of ArcINFO, ArcView, ArcGIS & associated imaging systems), or continue to add strength in the crucial areas of coming scientific importance such as biotech and bioinformatics, in which Macs already have a growing following as you can see [oreilly.com].
When you want something done properly... (Score:2, Interesting)
It's been over a year now and NONE of the big players have ported, preferring to point the finger at Apple. There's a major hole in OSX software and it's music/audio composition, good on you Apple for filling it.
Cubase has been slowly but surely becoming more windows focused, like the wait for vst32 and now SX.
Re:When you want something done properly... (Score:2, Interesting)
actually the core-audio api is still changing to a significant degree, so the blame really is on apple. in particular, audio input hasn't really solidified. (hence things that have no audio input like Live and Audacity have already ported) but since core-audio is such a great solid system, no one is complaining that much. in fact, core-audio is sufficiently different that many of the old hacks that all audio code depended on to achieve accurate timing are now irrelevant. so porting is really reworking, and a major rewrite of basic code.
but the fact that so many audio programs aren't yet out gives the impression to all my music centric friends that "nothing works under x yet".
Re:stage4: what this will mean to users and Apple (Score:2)
Re:The problems with Apple (Score:1)
please crawl under the bridge and think a little harder before you try again.
Re:The problems with Apple (Score:1)
Re:The problems with Apple (Score:1)
Overpriced proprietary hardware: What's proprietary? The cases? The ports are USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and modem jack. The hard drives are standard ATA, for the most part. You can't use an off the shelf motherboard and Intel processor, of course, but how many people would want to?
No way to upgrade: On my iMac DV, I've replaced my mouse, keyboard, hard drive, and added memory, a printer, and an iSub. CPU upgrades are available for some models, I just can't upgrade my video. I can't run the new FPS's on it anymore, but this machine is almost 3 years old anyway, and I can run any non-game software.
Poor price/performance ratio: I'm not going to argue about raw CPU power, but I think the easy to use interface more than compensates for that. I don't want a Windows machine at any price anyway.
Sloppy security: Where did THIS come from? Macs never get hacked, virtually never get viruses, and if you don't install Office, you don't get macro viruses, either.
Gay user base: I'll admit that my gaydar in imperfect, but nobody does any hitting on at GAMUG. There's a lot of grey hair there, anyway, with all the aging graphics professionals, desktop publishers, and senior citizen home users who come for advice.
It works great! (Score:2)
See, since ugly old trolls like you never buy Macs or come to the AUG meetings, only the good looking boys in pink show up!
It sure makes for some fun meetings, but then, you wouldn't enjoy it so, we're glad you stay away!