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Apple Businesses

New iBooks And OSX Beta Released 173

Posted by Hemos from the more-toliet-seats! dept.
zephc writes: "Apple has announced its iBooks, now with more RAM and DVD drive options, and (sweetness) Firewire (among other things)." Looks like it's at least three new models - and in other Mac Expo news, as promised OSX has been released in beta. Of course, it's a beta that costs $29.95 in the Apple Store, but whatever. MacNN has some coverage as well, as well as photos from the floor -- including the infamous flooding incident.
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New iBooks and OSX Beta Released More

New iBooks and OSX Beta Released

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  • "There's actually some pretty clever stuff in there, but the marketing droids messed it all up by naming the BSD-kernel "MACH" and the brand new NEXT-ish stuff "COCOA". "

    Actually, Mach is the name of the kernel, which was developed at Carnegie Mellon in the 80s (originally) and sits underneath the BSD kernel. Basically, the architecture is:

    Cocoa - Carbon - Classic - Java - BSD/X (with 3rd party X Server)
    BSD kernel
    Mach kernel

    maybe the cocoa name is silly, but the name Mach didn't come from Apple.
  • I'm going nuts waiting for the new PowerBook.
    Does anyone who went to the Expo know if Mr Jobs mentioned them? Or is he going to ?

    Cheers,
    Justin.
  • Not only paying for beta software but beta software that only runs on their hardware...

  • You make a good point. However, it is important to note that this release is not targetting developers. As I iterated in my other posts (Mr. Lagos is in an endless loop!) there is no project builder, the OS X IDE, bundled in this relase. No debugging tools. Nada.


    In fact looking at apple's MacOS X developement site [apple.com] there's a message specifically detering non-developers away from any developement information. It reads:

    ATTENTION: This page provides resources for people developing applications for Mac OS X. If you are a customer participating in the Mac OS X Public Beta program please proceed to http://www.apple.com/macosx/ for customer information and updates.


    In other words, the beta is designed mostly for people who should never see the inside of a developement site. Developers won't pick up the beta--They get a better package from the ADC.


    So what this is actually targetting is testers. And while I see the point of having lots of testers and advertisering to obtain them, most of the people who will actually pay for this won't be expecting a testing job. They're doing it because they want to have MacOS X, even if they have to settle for a beta.


    All it takes is a little reading of mac fanatical magazins (MacWorld, etc.) to realize how many non-developer mac users are obsessed with Mac OS X, and are planning to buy the beta and will probably, as you said, break their machines with it. Apple's online store was practically overloaded this morning.

    Hey, I don't care. I'm a Mac Fanatic, so I'll probably buy it. But let's not delude ourselves, Apple isn't charging $30 as a deterent. They're charging $30 because they can.


    --

    Lagos
  • Having the same problem. Slashdotted? Hehehe.

    I realize this is probably a joke, but for a server to actually be slashdotted, it has to have less hardware then slashdot itself. I doubt this is the case with Apple.

    - Scott

    ------
    Scott Stevenson
  • Who's going to do graphics work on an iBook? Anybody seriously doing design work is going to use a desktop system if they don't need portability and a PowerBook if they do. The iBook isn't meant for that market any more than the iMac is.
  • I have an IBM ThinkPad 770Z with the 1280x1024 screen, and it looks fabulous. I think the screen is 13.7".

    D

    ----
  • > Well, there you have it, the usual elitest
    > whining ...

    I resemble that remark (see sig)? And second the carp wrt: charging $30 for beta software media.

    Sheesh...

    -r

  • I concur. If the 12.1" screen could be 1024x768 (which should be quite legible on a LCD) I'd snap an iBook up in a heartbeat. Well, as soon as I could save the $1500 anyway. All the other specs are sweet. And if the PowerBooks could do 1152x864 I'd get one of those instead, even though it costs a bit more.

  • Uh, why is this a troll? It's clearly a joke. The Apple Expo floor in Paris was flooded.

    - Scott
    ------
    Scott Stevenson
  • I wonder if they are charging a somewhat hefty price of $30 to reduce number of beta-testers...

    Ah! Somebody's thinking! This also means that magazines can't just drop it in the sleeve of the next issue (although I'm sure the are other ways to prevent that).

    Another thought -- Apple has to pay somebody to read all that feedback and build the knowledge base content.

    I guess $20 would have been better, but I can live with $30. $40 would probably have been too much.

    - Scott


    ------
    Scott Stevenson

  • Re:Red Hat (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    With the RedHat copy, your paying for the CD's and a sizeable manual. IIRC, the OSXbeta comes only with a CD.
  • The demand curve that has made the iBook one of the best selling notebooks out there?

    As far as features, the iBook rivals its wintel competitors as far as price. If you want more than what it has, get a PowerBook; the iBook isn't, nor is it supposed to be, for everybody.

    I'm not sure how it stacks up against most of the wintel laptops, but the iBook (especially the new iBooks) certainly beat the pants off of Gateway's new Solo 5300 [gateway.com] laptops. For the same amount of money, you get more harddrive space, more memory, FireWire (plus iMovie!), a wireless networking card, and an Ethernet port. (The wireless card is optional and $100, but the iBook is also $100 cheaper than the Gateway.) The iBook gets between 4 and 6 hours of battery life (during real use, too).

    Speaking of the demand curve, just look at wireless networking. Apple has been on the forefront of this, and IBM and Dell have just started to play catch up. Wireless networking on a laptop is one of the coolest things I've ever used, and literally has to be experienced to be appreciated.

    So much for this "18 months behind the demand curve."

    (My iBook also dual boots to Linux, which it runs really well.)

    _pete

  • No, only the SUPPORT for the Beta will expire.

    Technically, the license to use the software expires. It says so when you purchase it from the store. I sort of doubt that the software just ceases to boot. I'm sure the upgrade to the full version will be worth it. The license expiration may just be to cover Apple's butt, so that they aren't accused of not supporting the software later.

    - Scott

    ------
    Scott Stevenson

  • Re:beta? (Score:4)

    by Ryano ( 2112 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @08:27AM (#783182) Homepage

    "No, only the SUPPORT for the Beta will expire. THere's no expiration date on the actual software..."

    The FAQ [apple.com] says different:

    Q. Will Mac OS X Public Beta expire?
    A. Mac OS X Public Beta will expire on May 15, 2001. At that time the software will stop working, and you will need a bootable Mac OS CD (not the Mac OS X Public Beta CD) to gain access to the contents of your hard drive or to reset your computer's startup disk.

  • Aren't you the same kids who flocked, slobbering, to Microsoft's charging $30 for the 'honor' to beta test their buggy OS?

    I thought so.

    Harry
  • Whenever I click the "buy" button all I get is failure messages from WebObjects. Very professional.
  • My suggestion to anyone wanting a *NIX on PPC is to go get mklinux.

    mkLinux is dead and never ran on very many machines anyway.

    My suggestion to anyone wanting a *NIX on PPC is to go get Debian or Yellow
    Dog or LinuxPPC.

    --

  • Display is still only 12.1" (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    How can the iBook hardly be considered a contender
    when the Wintel alliance has been pumping out
    laptop products with displays that rival most
    desktops. The iBook is cute and all, but it's
    18 months behind the demand curve and attempting
    to use style to make up for their lack of
    substance.
  • Oh, how I pine for the day when a NEW ULTRA-COOL GOTTA HAVE IT product meant _more_ than a new color.

    "Hey Mike! Got that new compact, huh? What makes it better than the old one?"
    "Well, they swapped the drive bay, and the GAVE ME A NEW COLOR!!!!!"

    Haha. Gotta hand it to Apple. Only corp. I know able to follow L. Ron Hubbard's own words: "If you really want to get rich, all you have to do is start your own religion."

  • From the license agreement:

    The Apple software is not intended for us in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, air traffic control systems, life support machines or other equipment in which the failure of the Apple software could lead to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage.



    --meredith

  • Charging for a beta? (Score:4)

    by Millennium ( 2451 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @04:38AM (#783189)

    The $30 price tag on a piece of beta software is, to say the least, absolutely exorbitant. Enough, in fact, this this if going to deter a *lot* of people from buying and using it. Almost deterred me.

    Then again, that's not entirely a Bad Thing. This is, after all, beta software. Get that through your head: beta beta beta . Most people, frankly, have no business running beta software which will do little but wreck their machines (or at the absolute least, put them at severe risk).

    A lot of Slashdotters seem to forget that there are users and there are developers. All developers are users, but not all users are developers, and they shouldn't have to be. The line is a bit blurred in Linux and the BSD's(something I consider a weak point; just because you need to use a computer doesn't mean you should have to know how to program), but this isn't so in Windows, MacOS, or most other operating systems. But think about it: would you put production boxes on an unstable kernel release, no matter how solid a given kernel may be reputed to be, or would you keep with the stable cycle? Assuming that some critical feature hadn't surfaced in the development cycle that wasn't in stable yet, most admins would keep production boxes on the stable cycle, and they'd be right to do so.

    To the guy whose school is running OSX: what is the IT staff smoking? Not only is the OS not ready for that sort of use by a long shot, but you're not even supposed to be able to get it legitimately for that (OSX Server notwithstanding, but that's a very different beast from OSX). Of course it sucks for business and academic purposes now; nobody, least of all Apple, ever claimed it was ready for that.

    As for me, I think I'll pony up for the CD. The $30 price is certainly distasteful, but if it's being used to deter non-developers then I can see why Apple does it, and I can't blame them for it. Not this time.


    ----------
  • If it won't support a second monitor, can I use a video projector with my PowerBook under OS X Beta?
  • Hey, even the "Developer Preview" was far more stable than anything I ever ran on Intel, so yes, I'll gladly pay for that beta!

    Windows people have been paying for their betas for years - go ahead and punish Apple for being honest, at least _they_ tell you it's a beta!

  • I agree. This comes of sitting through too many powerpoint presentations... But, linguistic usage does change over time, and not always for the better.

    Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!
  • What you are referring to is IBM and Dell's intention to begin offering wireless networking in their laptops later this year. Apple has been shipping its built-in Airport wireless networking for over a year, having debuted with the original iBook last summer. Every Mac made today comes with a built-in Airport antenna and is ready to accept the optional $99 Airport card. Like Apple's Airport, both IBM & Dell products will be based on the same 802.11 standard, but cost significantly more than the Apple products. Here's the story you probably read. [cnet.com]
  • All ya'll milk toast panty wetters who can't fork up 30 bucks need to shut up and and get a J O B. As for everyone else I believe we should purchase the Beta just so that Apple can prove with out a doubt that there is demand for OS X. Imagine what big developers will think if Jobs announces in a month that over a million copies of OS X beta were sold! Plus it looks pretty cool BSD Unix, Mach and an if not perfect interface one that is better than all the other OS's with out balz. peace, i'm out csajovic@hotmail.com
  • The applestore is down. At thirty bucks a pop.
  • I definitely agree concerning the iBook - if 12" screen is too small for you, fork over the cash for a full Powerboook and don't blame the iBook. It's placement is for entry-level laptop owners (Who'd have thought there even was such a thing?).

    But because I own both a PowerBook and an iBook, I can tell you that the screen issue isn't a big one. If you're using Photoshop, Quark, Director, or GoLive/DreamWeaver (ie: *Designer* tools) then you don't want an iBook - you need the bigger screen.

    If however, you're using email, websurfing, writing an occasional article/memo/paper, or even writing some simple code, the iBook running at 800x600 is plenty big enough. I suspect that it's plenty for running LinuxPPC or YDL. Big screens are nice, but unless you're able to pay for them they're a potential waste on laptops - by giving up a little screen real estate you can save yourself major bucks. This is true for *all* laptops, not just Apple's offerings.
  • I don't suppose anyone noticed the radeon graphics card in the g4 towers? $100 option. Improvement, yes.
  • Everquest? Quake III? Almost every other game out there and a lot of other apps?

    I've shelled out more than 30$ for products that have more patches than all the boy scouts combined.

    I think it's a smart thing to do to stop people who don't know what they are doing from hosing themselves and getting ticked at the big A.

    :P

    -Duggage
  • What none of you remember is, two years ago when NT 5.0 was in beta, to get any of the pre-release candidates, you had to have a several thousand dollar MSDN subscription... and that when RC3 came along, you had to pay $69 to get a copy, and they limited the number they would sell.

    I know I'm about to be flamed to a crisp for mentioning M$, but really, Apple isn't the first to do this, and it's not an uncommon practice.

    Think about it, if it were free: Joe User wants to be bleeding edge, gets OS X for free... it works pretty well, does what he wants, with a little configuration to get everything working just right. The official release comes out, and they sock you for $100 ~ +/- ... Joe User who has already tossed a substantial sum on the PPC hardware, and already has everything working pretty efficiently will opt to NOT buy the real deal.

    IBM doesn't release Aurora server for E-business for cheap just so some bozo can run it on his Aptiva... Apple doesn't need to give away the beta preview... The *TRUTH* is, too many of you
    (A) have no shame, and want something for nothing,
    and (B) are too used to the *luxury* of free (as in beer) software, where you can legally go and get what you want, when you want, provided some benevolent developer soul has written it for you.

    I love free (as in beer, and speech) software. I can typically find most of what I need to do what I want. I'm really grateful that so many people are giving away their hard work. But I wouldn't begrudge them if they didn't, they wrote it, it's their choice. If we want something with similar functionality, we have to find a clean-room way to do just that. We have to respect the developer's choice.

    Those of you that can't find a way to respect that are a disgrace to the community.

    A host is a host from coast to coast
    but no one uses a host that's close
  • Jesus. Why is this world so full of people who can't see beyond their own noses?

    First - I'll wager you've never *used* an iBook for longer than 5 minutes. If you had, you'd find that the display is quite nice.

    Second - Many people want a laptop that only does 800x600. Obviously, as the iBook has been selling rather briskly. Ask yourself this: What would the iBook target market be doing that *requires* more than 800x600? And if they really need to do that, why wouldn't they be in a position to spend the additional $ for a machine that gives them that screen rez? For that matter, what comparably-priced laptop has a bigger screen?

    Third - You obviously do not do graphics work and are unfamiliar with Macs generally. I am both. The iBook is not geared towards doing graphics work, but rather as an entry-level machine for college students. (Not geek college students, but normals). Machines such as the G3 PowerBook and G4 tower are machines geared towards graphic professionals. Any graphic designer who buys an iBook as their primary machine is a fool who probably has a history of using the wrong tool for a job.

    Please folks, keep your ignorance a private matter.
  • You mention that OS X beta should be pretty stable because its built on BSD. This doesnt mean that they cant break it. I had problems DP3, specifically with 'su' and other pretty important system binaries. I hope that whatever the hell they were doing breaking the unix base has been fixed.

    It is possible to ruin a stable unix base.

    Also, you comment about redhat as a beta release. I really think that we should sit down and really talk about what the word 'beta' means when we use it to talk about linux. From what I understand, RedHat doesnt claim that something is relatively stable untill the x.2 release. For Debian, they do things differently, more like *BSD but not quite. Of course, i dont know if i would call anything from RedHat stable.

  • when was the last time you paid for beta software?

    When I payed for Mandrake in a box.

    more anti-consumer

    The beta is not meant for consumers, you idiot.

    Besides, this is /. a Linux hotbed. Linux, where consumers are an afterthought.

    -toddhisattva

  • It appears Apple's store site has been kaput all morning except for a couple of very brief periods... 1-2 minutes. If you were quick... VERY quick....

    Either the demand is very high... or...
  • Can you name another laptop that offers comparable features and a bigger screen for the same price?

  • Better hardware support than ZDNet said (Score:4)

    by bnenning ( 58349 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @03:41AM (#783205)
    From http://www.apple.com/macosx/beta/start.html
    PowerBook Owners: Mac OS X Public Beta does not yet include optimized power management (e.g. sleep) or wireless networking (AirPort) functionality for all configurations. These capabilities are planned for release but are not available yet.
    Note "for all configurations", implying it works on at least some.

    From the install guide PDF:

    If you have more than one monitor connected to your computer, you may be unable to install this release. To install this release, you may only need to unplug the second monitor. If you still cannot install this release, remove any additional display cards.

    This is also what DP4 said, so it looks like multiple monitor support is still in the "sort of works, but unsupported" category.

  • hooomo ;)
  • People whining about the price just don't get it
    ---
    >80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
  • That's the standard Java disclaimer - Apple includes Java, so they use the disclaimer to cover their collective butts.

    Microsoft includes the disclaimer, too (since they have a JVM also), as should any commercial Linux vendor with a JVM, but I think in Microsoft's case it refers more to the rest of their operating system than it does to Java...

    - -Josh Turiel
  • Does anyone have any idea how to get MacOS X Beta in a country that doesn't have an Apple Store? (My understanding is that you can only order from the Apple Store in the country you are in).

    Sigh. I guess I try to visit the local dealer first thing in the morning.

    $30 is a bit expensive (about NZ$70?), but must be better than the current cycle ... use MacOS for networking and most things, reboot to Darwin to do some stuff that only runs under a UNIX environment, reboot back to MacOS so I can check my changes back into CVS ...

    Roy Ward.
  • ...but same sh*tty display. Really, who wants a laptop that only does 800x600 res? I mean the whole point of having a mac is to do graphics work, and who wants to do that at such a low res?
  • Don't hold your breath for the new Powerbooks. In all likelihood they won't appear till Macworld San Francisco in January. Keep in mind that the current G4 chip is not very suitable for use in laptops, and the G4e that Apple was planning to use for the G4 Powerbook isn't getting good enough production yields yet to rely on for a shipping product. --mark
  • Oh, how I pine for the day when a NEW ULTRA-COOL GOTTA HAVE IT product meant _more_ than a new color.

    The new iBooks have twice the video RAM and a Rage128 instead of the Rage LT in the old ones. They're also 100 MHz faster, have an on-chip L2 cache running at full processor speed, a FireWire port, a DVD drive, a video out port, and a larger hard drive. Happy now?

  • Just a little observation...

    How can the iBook hardly be considered a contender when the Wintel alliance has been pumping out laptop products with displays that rival most desktops?

    When they were introduced, one thing I noticed of the iMacs/iBooks was the reaction of my female friends, kid sister, her friends, and even my mother. They all got excited about the cuteness/design. Before, if they considered buying a computer, it was out of neccessity, but never, a techno/design lust. To actually see a desire in them was something that I had never seen before. Furthermore, since my sister and her friends are all kids, and they were begging their parents for one, I would definitely consider the iBook a contender (Have you ever worked in a toy store, and see how much parents are willing to spend on their kids? It's pretty amazing, even shocking.)

    Yup, I say appealing to the other, fashion concsious half of the population really makes the ibook a contender. Congrat's on the great marketing, Apple. :-)
  • Yeah, you just change the date on your computer and it'll work again...

    --------------------------------------------
  • Actually.. in the licence agreement it clearly states that you have to delete all copies you have of "the Software". According to a previous definition of "the Software" that includes the CD.

    Very nice.. not.

    - Henrik
  • I stand corrected. Thank you.
  • agree.
    but you know supply and demand(yadi yadi yadi..) i guess some people will pay for it.

    but i do think you have an interesting idea for a biz there: a company that get people to pay for them to fix bugs and extending free software.
    I think a lot of people/companys would like to just cash up to get something fixed and know that it will be implemented. of course the OS community would probably, fix it too, but companies need to know that some one is on it and that it will be fixed, and they don't mind paying for it.

    For some one who knows what the OS community is capable of it may seam silly, but a lot of companies want a company to call if some things go wrong, companies rarely have the know-how about the proper cannel's to get it fixed by the community.
  • Does that mean that (theoretically) GNU/Hurd would also run on top of Darwin's Mach? That'd be sweetness... a honkin' G4 running Hurd...
  • I agree. Most of the people who want free (beer) software have never, and will never, contribute anything to it. Most don't even write bug reports, much less *good* bug reports!

    The piper must be paid. Either you pay in coin or time. As has been observed, the two are equivalent!

    With Linux, we sleep on the shoulders of giants.
  • Steve Jobs is style over substance. What's your point? It's not about what you like, but what *SELLS* And trust me, Aqua will SELL. It will sell big.

    Also, OSX DOES have technical merit. It's got the OO-APIs, and Quartz is genuinely cool. However, since you can't see those, Aqua is needed. Think of it as the visual extension to Quartz.
  • 63 or 68,000 bugs. Actually they were called "undocumented features." I' can't wait to get myhands on the beta
  • With the advent of Mac OSX we should begin to see a few new developers in the Mac arena.For example, the Omni Group [omnigroup.com] has come out with a few applications such as a web browser, a pdf viewer and some utilities. It looks like they are NeXT developers now riding the mac wave.

    Too bad their web site is such a clunky Aqua rip-off.
  • I'm going home and painting those crash test dummies' stickers on my clothes and order the Mac OS X Beta that's going to change the world - again!!!
    You must be kidding me right?

    Here are the some 'revelations' -

    1. Get Steve Jobs over to Debian/SuSE/Mandrake/RedHat - the man can sell a beta, surely finished, robust and free OS+Apps has to be easier.

    2. Umm how about post beta, finished, free - consumer 'just works' OS - BeOS 5 PE [be.com], they have perl, python, bash, /bin/*, /usr/bin/*, gcc - 'nuff said.
  • Radiohead man...
  • 50% of engineers aren't below average. 50% of engineers are below the median.

    Yes, I know, but that doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

    Besides, if you take ALL the engineers and put them together, the average and the median are close enough for me!

    But, if it makes all those people who were better at statistics than I was happy, I'll change my sig and make it even more vague!

  • This is what I've been waiting for. An iBook that is realtively the same as an iMac with the exception that the iBook is less expandable than the iMac not that the iMac is all that expandable.I really think I'll get an iBook now well not now I'll wait till the tax return comes around the same time as OSX and Apple by then may have increased ram or hard drive or lowered the price a hundred or so. As for the color. I kinda like it. I'll probably get the airport too. Earthlink just bombarded me with pleas that i sign up for DSL. which i will once they get it down my street. Anyway. I look forward to getting an iBook and to whatever Apple decides to do for a follow up to all of this next year.

  • Re:iBooks NEEDED more RAM. (Score:3)

    by gig ( 78408 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @10:00AM (#783228)
    > What I'm curious is how you determine the "right"
    > amount of base memory is to begin with.

    You look at how much RAM Gateway, Dell, Compaq, and IBM are shipping in their products that compete with yours, and you put that much in, too, and try to have a competitive price point. Right now, this is 64MB on the base models, and 128MB on the higher-end models. RAM is an after-market "hidden cost" in the whole industry, and everybody's happy because it keeps the cost of it out of their price points.

    Also, if Circuit City knows they can sell a 64MB chip to almost everybody who buys a computer with 64MB in it, they will push a Compaq with 64MB over a Mac with 128MB so that they can get the RAM sale. They are not happy to sell you just a box with a Mac in it and that's that.

    Apple's machines can all take huge amounts of RAM compared to many of their Wintel counterparts, and every model has a door of some sort that the user can just open up and easily slot in more RAM without needing any tools or know-how, or paying somebody to do it. In addition, it's easy to shop for RAM for your Mac because there are many dealers that only ask you to pick the model of Mac that you have from a short list and then they send you the right chip, without charging the kind of premium that you pay a system vendor such as Apple or Dell. Apple is already going above and beyond the call with RAM, in my opinion.

    Also, as somebody who once paid $1200 to put 16MB of RAM into a brand new 386/33 (and I am not an old man), I just don't balk at paying $250 to get a 256MB DIMM along with a new computer. Big deal.
  • September mailing arrived - Reference Library CD was in there. Looks like the October mailing in a couple of weeks will have the beta.
  • I believe the reason the amphitheater may have been full is because they had to switch due to the - erm - water damage.

    Is that true?

    - Jeff A. Campbell
    - VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
  • it relly is good how mac is combining bsd with it's os. this is a great wonderfull thing for developers upeo

  • If you mod me down, you aren't reading between the lines.

    I *really* tried, but all I could see was the page's white backgroud. <g>


    --
    Marcelo Vanzin
  • I'd have to say these iBooks are actually worth the hype that was generated by the first round if iBooks (better late than never). I was always disappointed with the 32MB RAM/4 GB HD/no video out/no firewire configuration that the original iBooks came with. Now, these new ones look good:
    o 466 MHz G3 (No G4, but these are the consumer portables, but who needs AltiVec for wordprocessing?)
    o 64 MB RAM stock (up to 320!)
    o 10 GB HD stock (up to 20 GB avail)
    o composite video out (Well, not VGA, but good for the...)
    o DVD-ROM drive stock with graphite/key lime
    o 1 firewire port
    o 1 USB port
    o 56K modem & 10BaseT ethernet internal

    All for ~$1800. If I wanted to get a comparable VAIO [sony.com], I'd spend ~$2600. While the VAIO is ~2.25 lbs. lighter, the iBook is still kickin' its butt in about every other area.

    So what if it comes in different colors. ICGAFF. But, the hardware looks VERY nice to run LinuxPPC or YellowDog on. Yes, the first thing I'd do with one of these is throw OS 9 off of there, since I hate Mac OS [7-9]. But, I'd consider getting OS X, if it's cool. And meanwhile, I'd have a nice Linux box!

    I think I'm onna get me one of 'ese! (Unless Crusoe laptops are as cool (and cheap!) as hell)

  • So, now the iBook will actually ship with enough RAM to run the OS. That's great. What does OS 9 need to run? Somewhere near 40MB...and the orignal iBooks shipped with OS9 and only 32MB of RAM.

    Actually, the very first iBooks shipped with MacOS 8.6, which is much less memory hungry than 9. When I got my iBook, the 32 MB of RAM was sufficient for running a single application at a time (even Netscape!), until I upgraded to OS 9. Then I had to upgrade the RAM real quick, as the amount of swapping with only 32 MB made the machine nearly unusable.


  • I've been searching Apple's web site for this info, but I can't find anything about it.

    Has anybody heard anything about the public beta with respect to ADC members? I know Select and Premiere members will get the beta, but, believe it or not, my Select ADC membership expires today. I like to wait a couple of months after my membership expires before signing up again.

    Is it:

    • "Everybody that's a member as of today gets the CD"?
    Or more like:
    • "Everybody that's a member next week or whenever we send out the CD's will get it"?

    I'd like to save myself the $30, but I'll pay that before I cough up another $500 right away.

  • > Oh, how I pine for the day when a NEW
    > ULTRA-COOL GOTTA HAVE IT product
    > meant _more_ than a new color.

    This attitude is the mirror image to people who called the last PowerBook rev disappointing solely because it used the same casing as the one before it. They ignored the fact that the rev added FireWire, AirPort, more RAM, faster CPU, and a bigger hard drive.

    The new iBooks have new colors, but also gained FireWire, a video out for presentations, twice as much video RAM, faster CPU, bigger hard drive, and a slightly modified keyboard. And they're $100 cheaper, too. What's to complain about?

    For $1899, Apple will sell you a six-hour notebook with FireWire and iMovie 2.0, an AirPort card, and an AirPort base station that will serve at least 10 users and your grandmother could set it up. That's pretty amazing stuff. There isn't actually a competitive product out there except for the PowerBook. Nobody else is putting antennae into computers, and nobody else is doing six-hour battery life.
  • I (as well as the AC who replied) was able to run DP4 with a Voodoo3 driving a second monitor. No acceleration, but it worked fine. The Dock genie effect looks even funkier when it goes across screens...
  • The Mac that I bought actually came out of the box with 0 MB of ram (thats right, zero MB), no hard drive, and no graphics card. It was the Power Macintosh 9600 VAR edition, and it did include a floppy drive, CD-ROM drive, keyboard and mouse, but no other peripherals. The OS was included on CD, but of course it was necessary to add at least a little RAM and a graphics card to get it to boot off the CD. I wish Apple would bundle their current offerings in this manner, since they tend to overcharge on RAM and on hard drives.
  • what most puzzles me is why you're so frothing at the mouth to "catch" me in errors

    I'm not trying to do that at all, I apologize if that's the way it came out. We're both just trying to get the facts out, and all I'm saying is that "not supported" doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't work".

  • I figured the price point might be to both limit the beta pool to "serious" testers and to cover support costs (there are three options - built-in help, online kbase and telephone support). Phone support is provided on a pay-per-incident basis. No price listed. I called the number and asked about the cost - US$49.95 per incident.

    Ouch.

    But, it'll probably keep the calls down to a manageable number of truly serious testers/early-adopters.

  • The iBooks have been shipping with 64MB of RAM since...MacWorld/MacExpo Tokyo. Thats when they all bumped to 6GB HDs and then iBook SE in Graphite came out.

    I think that all the Macs should ship with 128...but that would cut into profits...and I'm a shareholder...SOOOO...leave it at 64 for now :).

  • The iBook update is a pretty nice one (Score:4)

    by jht ( 5006 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @05:16AM (#783245) Homepage Journal
    They lowered the price on the base model by $100 (to $1499), bumped up the speed, and added Firewire, a bigger drive, and an A/V out. Too bad that Key Lime is so damned ugly - but the masses may just go for it. They had already increased base RAM and HD size once, back in January or February (to 64MB and 6GB, respectively), with no price change.

    Actually, the new iBook SE is particularly sweet - a 466 MHz processor, 10GB drive, 64MB RAM, DVD, TFT display, Mobility 128 video, and Firewire for $1800 compares real well with the brand-name Wintel competition. I may consider upgrading at some point myself - I have one of the original iBooks that I hacked a 6GB drive into (taking an iBook apart just can't suck enough, by the way), and it's been real nice, but more speed and Firewire would just rule completely for me.

    - -Josh Turiel
  • The display is really nice...even if it is a 12.1.

    I get complements all the time when I use my Tangerine iBook at work, about how bright anc clear the screen is even under intense light and from the side.

  • Red Hat (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    No more ridiculous than the $30 Red Hat charges you for a piece of software you can download for free off the internet. At least Apple writes their own software... Red Hat is just selling other peoples' work.

    Slashdot: News for whiners. Stuff to complain about.

  • For a number of years, the base configuration of every Apple machine has been very obviously deficient in RAM. The original iMac shipped with 32MB with an OS that was easily capable of hogging up to 25 of that. The reason often suggested is that this is one of Apple's few concessions to its dealers: value-added resellers can make extra money by pre-installing extra RAM, as well as flogging other goodies such as printers and scanners with the package.

    I'm not certain I buy this, but it is certainly plausible, and Apple's practice does require some explanation. The iMac can take up to 1GB of RAM, so why not pre-install more? Every review of every Apple product in the last few years has mentioned the lack of RAM, so you'd think they'd address this. Another explanation is that Apple doesn't want its bottom line to be held hostage by fluctuating RAM prices.

    Whatever the reason, if you're buying a Mac in the near future, you're going to be buying some RAM also.

  • Re:beta? (Score:3)

    by Cannonball ( 168099 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @06:22AM (#783257)
    No, only the SUPPORT for the Beta will expire. THere's no expiration date on the actual software...and I'll bet Apple gives rebates to those who bought the Beta when OS X ships.

  • The OSX Beta seems available only from the US Apple Store, not the Canadian one. On top of which, the US Apple Store refuses to accept all of my Canadian Postal Code (even though I know that Fed Ex and UPS can brave the frozen tundra to deliver packages up here). Poo.
  • BeOS is not based on Mach.
  • All these iBook improvements are really nice, but I really wish that they came with 14.1 inch screens, like the Powerbooks (and most good Wintel laptops) do. In my opinion, a good display is more important than firewire and a faster processer. I've got a 200 MHz Pentium, but a 19 inch monitor.

    I don't know -- has anyone seen 1024x768 on a 12.1 laptop screen? Is it possible, and if so, does it look OK?


    ========
    Stephen C. VanDahm
  • so it looks like multiple monitor support is still in the "sort of works, but unsupported" category.

    Well, close. The "Works fine with the right cards" category.

    Virtually any recent ATI card is almost certainly fine.
  • For a number of years, the base configuration of every Apple machine has been very obviously deficient in RAM. The original iMac shipped with 32MB with an OS that was easily capable of hogging up to 25 of that. The reason often suggested is that this is one of Apple's few concessions to its dealers: value-added resellers can make extra money by pre-installing extra RAM, as well as flogging other goodies such as printers and scanners with the package.

    To be fair, the original iMac shipped with OS 8.1, a fine operating system that ran in 11-15 MB (+ maybe another 2-4 MB for MS library extensions if you had to run Office or IE), and OS 8.5/6 usually runs in less than 20 MB (16 on my iMac with peripheral and modem extensions loaded)-- I'm not sure where you get 25 MB from.

    But you're right, the Mac has not shipped with enough RAM since the first model in 1984. Supposedly Steve Jobs, back then, thought developers should be able to write very good, tight code that would run on a 128k machine (they wanted 512k, and eventually got it). I wonder if Jobs doesn't realize that, in the current port-from-PC developement environment, he's not going to get many programs optimized for a 32 MB iMac/iBook, or if he's just being sleazy with the RAM vendors, as you suggest?

  • Re:Looks good (Score:3)

    by fgodfrey ( 116175 ) <fgodfrey@bigw.org> on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @05:35AM (#783273) Homepage
    To add a bit to this, Mach is a microkernel. That means that by itself, it isn't intended to be the sole kernel on the machine, but just provides the basic support for the hardware. It also provides very nice interprocess communication mechanisms.

    On top of that, you write a kernel "server" that provides whatever kernel API you want. The BSD portion of MacOS X (and, of course, NeXTstep) runs as a kernel server on top of Mach. I think, though I'm not certain, that the stuff like Cocoa sit directly on Mach and not on top of the BSD layer (otherwise, there'd be little point to using Mach instead of a monolithic BSD kernel).

    OSX/NeXTstep is not the only OS that uses Mach as a foundation. mkLinux is a Linux kernel server for the Mach microkernel. That's what the "mk" stands for. Cray apparently considered Mach as the microkernel foundation for Unicos/mk (the Cray T3E operating system) but went with another microkernel called Chorus instead.

  • As a recovering Mac drone, I have to say I am not familiar with the "stability" of which you speak. I have been hard crashing Macintosh computers since 1988 and the situation has never improved-- in fact, I've grown tired of looking for a paperclip to restart my iMac, which lacks a sensible power-off or restart button. I'm sure you'll just call this "user error" and blame the victim. But when you make candy colored computers and force the usage of wiring schema like USB (the supposed remedy to all our device needs), the last thing I, as a user, should have to worry about is which device drivers or javascripted web pages are going to bomb the whole machine.

    As a future GNU/Linux drone, I'm torn as to whether I want to spend the $30 to see if OS X is going to improve my life if it ever gets past beta (since I doubt they'll produce anything else resembling a test version, which would allow me to try the software before blowing $100 on it). But that's $30 I could be donating (tax deductibly) to the FSF, not furthering my proprietary software addiction. I'd respect Apple's OS upgrades a lot more if the last few weren't centered on giving me Sherlock, replete with lame searches that were no better than google, took longer than google, and were littered with so much advertising that it put pr0n sites and [insert portal wannabe] to shame. So forgive me for feeling burned by Apple, but I've never felt like they cared about helping me to help myself-- which is exactly the feeling I get as I've been making the transition to GNU/Linux.

  • Re:The iBook update is a pretty nice one (Score:3)

    by jht ( 5006 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @06:57AM (#783280) Homepage Journal
    Well, they claim presentations are one of the things it's good for now (it's composite video). The iBook can do either 640x480 or 800x600 natively (at least on the original one, it does a pretty good job of scaling), and the 640x480 mode should be good enough for PowerPointing if the 800x600 mode isn't supported for video out.

    It'd be nicer if the video out was S-Video, but this works, too.

    All in all, it's a good feature set for an entry-level laptop. Don't forget, Apple wants you to buy a PowerBook for the heavy lifting and "corporate"-type work, anyway. Other than the screen resolution and 66 MHz system bus, this matches up real well against a Pismo now. Apple's portables are arguably more directly competitive versus Wintel prices at this point than their desktops are.

    - -Josh Turiel

  • beta? (Score:3)

    by jbarnett ( 127033 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @03:44AM (#783284) Homepage

    So for $30 USD, I can test someone else buggy software? This is a God send! There are actucally companies paying me to test their software, that is crap. I want to not only receive non-payable for beta testing commerical products, but want to put my $30 to them for putting buggy software on the shelf.

    $30 seems really cheap, maybe they should change per bug report you send it. Like $5 for each bug report you send in and $50 for each bug you find. Because if you find a bug, the company has to pay their programmers to go in a fix it before release, and this costs alot of money. With this apple method, not only can companies pay for the bug fixes, but they can also make a profit on it!!

    Commericaliztion is GGgggggREAT!

    If you mod me down, you aren't reading between the lines.

  • Money for Nothing (Score:3)

    by imadork ( 226897 ) on Wednesday September 13, 2000 @03:55AM (#783293) Homepage

    This isn't the first time we've paid for buggy beta software. But all those other times, the software was called "Version 1.0"!

  • Clothes and fashionionable items; purses, jackets, pants, etc. A new season, a new color!

    Cars; a new season, restyled front bumper, a new set of colors, different trim, a HP boost in the engine. Sound familiar?

    PCs; a new season, slightly bigger HD, slightly faster CPU, slightly more ram!

    The nick is a joke! Really!
  • It is still way more cheaper than windows 9x or later. Mac is doing that right. I am thinking of switching to Mac real soon. Like maybe in a year or so.

    I read a review on OS X and it is supposed to be much like NeXT. Coolness if this is true, cause I like the NeXT feel.

    I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
    Flame away, I have a hose!

  • You may argue that $30 is a lot to pay for a beta... But if I could have downloaded this, it would take me hours, and then I would have to burn a disk. IMHO, it is a silly use of the net for everybody to download the same 400MB file!

    Still, I think they should have set the price-point at $20. I suspect that it is $30 to limit the demand for something they only mean to get into the hands of people who have some actual testing to accomplish.

    I also would not be amazed to find a rebate coupon with OSX when it ships for those who bought the demo. Apple have done it this way before.
  • Yes... a certain other 'giant of the software industry' charges for beta editions too. And remember kids - the beta is going to *expire*, so after the release of the full software, your wonderous USD30 turns into nothing! Fantastic!

    The only bonus is that the USD30 for getting the beta is discounted for an upgrade from the beta to the release edition.

  • Thing that bugs me the most is it won't support my V3. That's the only reason I'm not buying it. DP3 crashed when I tried to install it until I actually took the card out. I didn't even bother with DP4 because the readme said the exact same thing.
  • But, it'll probably keep the calls down to a manageable number of truly serious testers/early-adopters.

    Truly serious testers will probably realize this is a beta, file a bug report via the form, and boot back into Mac OS 9 if necessary. I suspect the phone option is for people that install Mac OS X on their rev. A iMac and get totally lost.

    - Scott

    ------
    Scott Stevenson
  • First get all the cool stuff in OS-X into Linux and then the man will have something to sell. For most Mac users, Linux isn't sexy. Useful, powerful, nifty, ethically-correct, but not sexy. Aqua is sexy, Quartz is sexy, Cocoa is sexy. Ext2 is not. X is not. DRI is not. Jobs excels at selling sexy stuff, so I think his powers are wasted on Linux. Seriously though, Jobs kicks ass. My mom is a computer neophyte, and she immediatly wanted to buy the G4 Cube when it came out. He has brought Apple out of bankruptcy and led Apple to make some genuinely cool stuff like the dual-G4 machines. The man is God, pure and simple.
  • ---
    Why does OS X require these vast resources?
    ---

    Classic. Basically, you're booting two seperate operating systems at once. If you don't use Classic, your resource usage will be a lot lower.

    At least, that's how it worked in DP4.

    Apple probably expects everyone to be using Classic for a while, so they're inflating the requirements somewhat. I didn't use Classic much, and 96 MB ram in this PowerBook worked fine.

    - Jeff A. Campbell
    - VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
  • None of the Developer Preview versions of the software have expired yet (and DP3 is significantly old). So why should this expire? It's not totally functional, so you'll need the full version to get full fuctionality, plus support for 3rd party devices etc.

  • Where did you get the information that the install might render your box unbootable?

    I've read all four PDF's on Apples web site about the Mac OSX install, and I've only seen the "usual" warnings about backing up, etc.

    All my information is here [apple.com]; where did you get yours?

    Also, Microsoft has charged for public betas in the past; why shouldn't Apple?

  • Well, there you have it, the usual elitest whining from the win and linux drones. yes, linux users can be drones also - use of an open-source, self-tweaked operating system does not make you a full person. I would have thought that people could respect apple for making an advance in their OS, but I guess not, seeing as how apple is just now catching up with a lot of the plumbing that linux has had for a long time. Maybe the whiners just feel a bit threatened by the fact that there is now an OS out there that is truly competitve with *n*x technologically. Oh, and the fact that you can actually work with the OS, and quite a few apps within 15 minutes of starting the install must be a point of criticism/insecurity for the LinWinWiners also. Stability and power for the masses, at least those who pay apple's price premium. and yes, I'm posting this from my windows machine, not a mac.

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