If Apple goes thru with this, I will stop buying macbook pros for myself and stop my employer from buying them. That would be roughly 4000 purchases every 3 years.
I'm playing it by ear - I want to see how the new machines fit with my needs before I make that sort of decision. I suspect I'll be moving away from Mac, though.
In any case: on general principles, I'm planning to migrate some things out of the Apple ecosystem - that way I can move across OSes with less pain. The biggest pain point is my passwords... I've been just using Apple's Keychain for the last decade plus. I've started the long, tedious transition over to BitWarden. It'll still work if I stick with macOS, but it'll also work should I decide to switch to Linux (or, Lord help me, Windows).
If Apple goes thru with this, I will stop buying macbook pros for myself and stop my employer from buying them. That would be roughly 4000 purchases every 3 years.
Perhaps you could explain your reasoning? Abandoning the OS would be far more difficult for most people than abandoning the underlying CPU architecture.
Why? The applications people are familiar with are available on Windows. MS Office is the main one. My own parents have been using Macs for many years but recently in a volunteer capacity had to use the supplied Windows 10 computers. They found the transition quite easy. In fact my mother remarked that Windows 10 was much more Mac-like than older versions of Windows. The jump from Finder to Explorer was pretty simple (despite the lack of a paned interface in Windows). MS Office seemed about the same to t
It seems Adobe CC and Office 2019 already ported themselves to the Mac ARM and most apps are a compile away.
The x86 emulation demo was impressive and they could always throw more hardware at the problem, the ARM chip is 1/3 the cost for Apple to produce and consumes a lot less power. Having an x86 code interpreter on chip is what Intel and AMD both do already, why not on ARM?
The x86 emulation demo was impressive and they could always throw more hardware at the problem, the ARM chip is 1/3 the cost for Apple to produce and consumes a lot less power.
Apple didn't produce x86 chips, so it's just "the ARM chip is 1/3 the cost for Apple". Only with their piss-poor volumes they could have gone AMD instead, probably saved just as much money (since they wouldn't have to spend money making their own desktop processors) and they'd have retained binary compatibility.
Apple is sitting on some of the world's largest corporate cash reserves, they aren't taking this step to save money. They're doing it specifically to be incompatible with everyone else, in order to push people further into their walled garden. They just want to benefit from vendor lock-in.
Why? The applications people are familiar with are available on Windows. MS Office is the main one. My own parents have been using Macs for many years but recently in a volunteer capacity had to use the supplied Windows 10 computers. They found the transition quite easy. In fact my mother remarked that Windows 10 was much more Mac-like than older versions of Windows. The jump from Finder to Explorer was pretty simple (despite the lack of a paned interface in Windows). MS Office seemed about the same to them, other than superficial UI differences. Firefox, Thunderbird are nearly the same too. Plus the use of web-based tools meant the platform didn't really matter. They had no complaints about Windows 10, which surprised me.
Have you had your parents checked for mental deterioration or memory issues? (I kid; but you get my point)
I work with both Windows (10 and 7, plus several versions of Windows Server) every single day, and there is simply no comparison in smoothness, ease-of-use, and features-that-users-actually-can-use. MacOS wins all of those, hands-down; particularly as you have other Apple devices in your household. The level of integration and "this is what computers are supposed to be" in macOS, particularly in the pas
Most people also do not give a crap about their operating system, as long as it runs the apps they want to use, is as invisible as possible and leaves them alone. Which is why windows is so shite, annoyingly right in your face, a pest and on purpose, which is why M$ died on the phone, too much competition for an anal retentive operating system.
But, developers that are developing targeting Kubernetes will care about docker emulation failing. Our developers will be happy they'll get to move from OSX to Ubuntu as they've been asking to do for the last couple of years.
There are some pretty obvious downsides that have been made public already. No bootcamp. No native VMs. Having to re-buy all the existing applications. That's on top of all the other negative changes that have been made to Mac laptops over the last several years like non-upgradeable memory and SSDs, the touchbar, the butterfly keyboard (which they reversed after THREE YEARS of it being apparent what a clusterfuck it is). From a software side the OS is pretty damn locked down, can't install third party drive
There are some pretty obvious downsides that have been made public already. No bootcamp. No native VMs. Having to re-buy all the existing applications. That's on top of all the other negative changes that have been made to Mac laptops over the last several years like non-upgradeable memory and SSDs, the touchbar, the butterfly keyboard (which they reversed after THREE YEARS of it being apparent what a clusterfuck it is). From a software side the OS is pretty damn locked down, can't install third party drivers anymore, and almost all the Unixy software is badly out of date. Basically for the last several years when Apple announces a new MacOS my question is - what are they taking away, not what are they adding. Because I cannot think of a single useful thing they have added in years and I'm speaking as a developer. I think they added some API back in High Sierra that I used once?? Dunno.
There were times that Apple felt it had to compete on price with PCs, that is not happening right now. You get to pay out the ass for all of what I said. And for what tangible benefit? OP was talking as a corporate IT department where the benefits of MacOS are slight. As a company everything runs in Chrome or is available on Windows.
Nobody cares if ARM is slightly more efficient than a Ryzen laptop.
Why do you have to re-buy existing applications? I use the Apple media suite (Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro) and I 100% expect to just be able to sign into my account on a future ARM machine and continue using them. I expect other apps like Ableton to allow me to transfer my license to a new machine as well.
I seem to recall some controversy with Final Cut Pro where an update broke a ton of older project files, and Apple's response was basically, "deal with it."
It's fairly common knowledge that Apple has been treating macbooks as "garbage legacy product that we can't really abandon for image reasons" for last ten years or so. Desktop is borderline dead in terms of support already, where they're primarily churning ridiculously priced low volume items only (hello infamous 1k monitor stand, it's not really hidden any more). They're tiny in their revenue streams, and they're nowhere near as high margin as their main products like iphones. CPU architecture isn't theirs
It's not just the image reasons. Mac is the only platform for running Xcode. No Xcode - no iOS apps. We will know that Apple is killing the laptop/desktop business when Xcode is released for Windows or Linux.
If amd64 compatibility is important to you, then it's a reasonable move. I have nothing against ARM, and I was never much of an x86-lover (I deliberately purchased and operated a Sun 4/260 for years just to avoid it, no joke - I had 24MB of RAM and 80MB disk, plus a tape drive, and a 20" Trinitron, so I was doing okay) but amd64 is where it's at today for actual mainstream computing. It's super fast, it provides compatibility with very old software at very good performance per dollar, compilers are good at
Wouldn't it be better to adopt a wait and see attitude? Get one and prove that your business can't migrate rather than using what a load of people on the internet say who also have no direct experience with the new systems. You can make an informed decision at the proper time. Intel Mac's won't suddenly stop working... If there are corporate apps that you need how about asking the companies that make them what their plans are... Stop the knee jerk reaction to something that for many of us has been on the card
that's the problem apple doesnt want the pro market anymore, they are too demanding and critical. 1% of a 3% pc market you and your employer can go stuff yourselves when they unleash the new generation of chomebook killers and all the bobble heads in the world go OH FUCK ITS AN IPAD WITH A KEYBOARD HERE HAVE 4 GRAND!
Well, it's going to turn out to be a problem for Apple. You can't have the plebe market without the pro market. You can have it for a while, but the plebes need the pros' help to use their devices, make purchasing decisions, etc. And the pros will be saying "well, I don't use it because [baffling reasons the plebes don't understand] so I can't really help you" and they will turn away from it in the end.
I'm out... (Score:3, Interesting)
If Apple goes thru with this, I will stop buying macbook pros for myself and stop my employer from buying them. That would be roughly 4000 purchases every 3 years.
Re:I'm out... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm playing it by ear - I want to see how the new machines fit with my needs before I make that sort of decision. I suspect I'll be moving away from Mac, though.
In any case: on general principles, I'm planning to migrate some things out of the Apple ecosystem - that way I can move across OSes with less pain. The biggest pain point is my passwords... I've been just using Apple's Keychain for the last decade plus. I've started the long, tedious transition over to BitWarden. It'll still work if I stick with macOS, but it'll also work should I decide to switch to Linux (or, Lord help me, Windows).
Re: (Score:2)
If Apple goes thru with this, I will stop buying macbook pros for myself and stop my employer from buying them. That would be roughly 4000 purchases every 3 years.
Perhaps you could explain your reasoning? Abandoning the OS would be far more difficult for most people than abandoning the underlying CPU architecture.
Re: (Score:2)
Why? The applications people are familiar with are available on Windows. MS Office is the main one. My own parents have been using Macs for many years but recently in a volunteer capacity had to use the supplied Windows 10 computers. They found the transition quite easy. In fact my mother remarked that Windows 10 was much more Mac-like than older versions of Windows. The jump from Finder to Explorer was pretty simple (despite the lack of a paned interface in Windows). MS Office seemed about the same to t
Re: I'm out... (Score:2)
It seems Adobe CC and Office 2019 already ported themselves to the Mac ARM and most apps are a compile away.
The x86 emulation demo was impressive and they could always throw more hardware at the problem, the ARM chip is 1/3 the cost for Apple to produce and consumes a lot less power. Having an x86 code interpreter on chip is what Intel and AMD both do already, why not on ARM?
Re: I'm out... (Score:4, Informative)
The x86 emulation demo was impressive and they could always throw more hardware at the problem, the ARM chip is 1/3 the cost for Apple to produce and consumes a lot less power.
Apple didn't produce x86 chips, so it's just "the ARM chip is 1/3 the cost for Apple". Only with their piss-poor volumes they could have gone AMD instead, probably saved just as much money (since they wouldn't have to spend money making their own desktop processors) and they'd have retained binary compatibility.
Apple is sitting on some of the world's largest corporate cash reserves, they aren't taking this step to save money. They're doing it specifically to be incompatible with everyone else, in order to push people further into their walled garden. They just want to benefit from vendor lock-in.
Re: (Score:2)
Having an x86 code interpreter on chip is what Intel and AMD both do already, why not on ARM?
In a word: Licensing. That is it.
But functionally, you are correct (I believe).
Re: (Score:2)
Why? The applications people are familiar with are available on Windows. MS Office is the main one. My own parents have been using Macs for many years but recently in a volunteer capacity had to use the supplied Windows 10 computers. They found the transition quite easy. In fact my mother remarked that Windows 10 was much more Mac-like than older versions of Windows. The jump from Finder to Explorer was pretty simple (despite the lack of a paned interface in Windows). MS Office seemed about the same to them, other than superficial UI differences. Firefox, Thunderbird are nearly the same too. Plus the use of web-based tools meant the platform didn't really matter. They had no complaints about Windows 10, which surprised me.
Have you had your parents checked for mental deterioration or memory issues? (I kid; but you get my point)
I work with both Windows (10 and 7, plus several versions of Windows Server) every single day, and there is simply no comparison in smoothness, ease-of-use, and features-that-users-actually-can-use. MacOS wins all of those, hands-down; particularly as you have other Apple devices in your household. The level of integration and "this is what computers are supposed to be" in macOS, particularly in the pas
Re: (Score:2)
Most people also do not give a crap about their operating system, as long as it runs the apps they want to use, is as invisible as possible and leaves them alone. Which is why windows is so shite, annoyingly right in your face, a pest and on purpose, which is why M$ died on the phone, too much competition for an anal retentive operating system.
Re: (Score:2)
uh, no bootcamp? (Score:1)
There are some pretty obvious downsides that have been made public already. No bootcamp. No native VMs. Having to re-buy all the existing applications. That's on top of all the other negative changes that have been made to Mac laptops over the last several years like non-upgradeable memory and SSDs, the touchbar, the butterfly keyboard (which they reversed after THREE YEARS of it being apparent what a clusterfuck it is). From a software side the OS is pretty damn locked down, can't install third party drive
Re: (Score:2)
There are some pretty obvious downsides that have been made public already. No bootcamp. No native VMs. Having to re-buy all the existing applications. That's on top of all the other negative changes that have been made to Mac laptops over the last several years like non-upgradeable memory and SSDs, the touchbar, the butterfly keyboard (which they reversed after THREE YEARS of it being apparent what a clusterfuck it is). From a software side the OS is pretty damn locked down, can't install third party drivers anymore, and almost all the Unixy software is badly out of date. Basically for the last several years when Apple announces a new MacOS my question is - what are they taking away, not what are they adding. Because I cannot think of a single useful thing they have added in years and I'm speaking as a developer. I think they added some API back in High Sierra that I used once?? Dunno.
There were times that Apple felt it had to compete on price with PCs, that is not happening right now. You get to pay out the ass for all of what I said. And for what tangible benefit? OP was talking as a corporate IT department where the benefits of MacOS are slight. As a company everything runs in Chrome or is available on Windows.
Nobody cares if ARM is slightly more efficient than a Ryzen laptop.
No amd64 docker.
Re:uh, no bootcamp? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:uh, no bootcamp? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hoping whatever AU plugins you use come over as easily too.
Re: (Score:2)
I seem to recall some controversy with Final Cut Pro where an update broke a ton of older project files, and Apple's response was basically, "deal with it."
Don't 100% expect anything.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's fairly common knowledge that Apple has been treating macbooks as "garbage legacy product that we can't really abandon for image reasons" for last ten years or so. Desktop is borderline dead in terms of support already, where they're primarily churning ridiculously priced low volume items only (hello infamous 1k monitor stand, it's not really hidden any more). They're tiny in their revenue streams, and they're nowhere near as high margin as their main products like iphones. CPU architecture isn't theirs
Re: I'm out... (Score:2)
It's not just the image reasons. Mac is the only platform for running Xcode. No Xcode - no iOS apps. We will know that Apple is killing the laptop/desktop business when Xcode is released for Windows or Linux.
Re: I'm out... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Why would you make this your personal vendetta?
That really sounds like a strange thing to spend time on.
Re: (Score:2)
If amd64 compatibility is important to you, then it's a reasonable move. I have nothing against ARM, and I was never much of an x86-lover (I deliberately purchased and operated a Sun 4/260 for years just to avoid it, no joke - I had 24MB of RAM and 80MB disk, plus a tape drive, and a 20" Trinitron, so I was doing okay) but amd64 is where it's at today for actual mainstream computing. It's super fast, it provides compatibility with very old software at very good performance per dollar, compilers are good at
Re: (Score:1)
Wouldn't it be better to adopt a wait and see attitude? Get one and prove that your business can't migrate rather than using what a load of people on the internet say who also have no direct experience with the new systems.
You can make an informed decision at the proper time. Intel Mac's won't suddenly stop working... If there are corporate apps that you need how about asking the companies that make them what their plans are...
Stop the knee jerk reaction to something that for many of us has been on the card
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
that's the problem apple doesnt want the pro market anymore, they are too demanding and critical. 1% of a 3% pc market you and your employer can go stuff yourselves when they unleash the new generation of chomebook killers and all the bobble heads in the world go OH FUCK ITS AN IPAD WITH A KEYBOARD HERE HAVE 4 GRAND!
Re: (Score:2)
Well, it's going to turn out to be a problem for Apple. You can't have the plebe market without the pro market. You can have it for a while, but the plebes need the pros' help to use their devices, make purchasing decisions, etc. And the pros will be saying "well, I don't use it because [baffling reasons the plebes don't understand] so I can't really help you" and they will turn away from it in the end.
Style matters a lot, but it's not everything.