What Would It Cost To Build a Windows Version of the Pricey New Mac Pro? 804
zacharye writes "The new Mac Pro is the most powerful and flexible computer Apple has ever created, and it's also extremely expensive — or is it? With a price tag that can climb up around $10,000, Apple's latest enterprise workhorse clearly isn't cheap. For businesses with a need for all that muscle, however, is that steep price justifiable or is there a premium 'Apple tax' that companies will have to pay? Shortly after the new Mac Pro was finally made available for purchase last week, one PC enthusiast set out to answer that question and in order to do so, he asked another one: How much would it cost to build a comparable Windows 8 machine?"
$11,530.54 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Support costs (Score:5, Informative)
Apple most certainly does NOT have leading support on the enterprise level. I know this from direct, personal experience. "That's how it's meant to work" and "We will probably fix that in the next release (date unknown)" are both considered perfectly acceptable answers by Apple Enterprise Support.
Oh...unless you're a 100% Apple shop and already have in-house Linux/Unix guru's who can do an end-run around the limitations in OSX.
Every other enterprise vendor has a roadmap and beta products/releases they share (at least under NDA) so related vendors can prepare their software/hardware. Apple releases the next OSX and major software vendors (PGP, Symantec, etc.) take months to release compatible software.
This isn't Apple bashing, just the state of things and it sucks. I actually like most of their hardware and OS implementation but some parts make want to pull my hair out...which is awkward since I have none.
Storage, RAM, video cards all replaceable (Score:3, Informative)
We already know you can replace the three major components people generally replace in systems - so it's not like you have to max out any of those three initially. Except for the fact Apple is generally charging you less than you'd have to pay on your own for that part right now...
Re: Hard to believe (Score:4, Informative)
Re:People forget (Score:5, Informative)
While you can build one cheaper using DYI parts, however the time spent in wages, for souring the hardware, software and doing the software can add up very quickly
Surprisingly, If you read the article, it wouldn't be cheaper using DYI parts. The main advantage you would get of using DYI parts, in this case, is upgradeability.
Re:Obvious Question (Score:3, Informative)
April 1?
Win 7 is still available.
Cost for a diy (Score:5, Informative)
Cpu
Motherboard: ASUS Z9PA-U8 - $277.99
64GB 16x4 (4 slots still free) - $720
PCIe ssd
Power supply 1500 Watt - $374
Case: $274
Video cards: ??? not currently available
Total: $5,176
Apple with similar specs: $7,899
So that leaves $2,723 for video cards, I can't find any suggested prices on the D500 or D700, except that Apple charges $300 per card to upgrade from D500 to D700.
Of course if you wanted 12 cores you could save a bundle and just get a dual socket board and 2 6 core cpus. Also the MB supports a lot more ram etc, but is a lot bigger.
Sources:
CPU: http://www.compsource.com/ttechnote.asp?part_no=BX80635E52697V2&vid=211&src=14 [compsource.com]
MB: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131915 [newegg.com]
RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147307 [newegg.com]
HDD: http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-Technology-Drive-Series-Express/dp/B0058RECOU/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1388118274&sr=8-9 [amazon.com]
PSU: http://www.amazon.com/SILVERSTONE-ST1500-CrossFire-Certified-Modular/dp/B002BH3Z84/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1388118413&sr=8-2&keywords=1500watt+power+supply [amazon.com]
Case: http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Obsidian-Series-Performance-CC-9011035-WW/dp/B00EB6O4N8/ref=sr_1_1?srs=2529199011&ie=UTF8&qid=1388118511&sr=8-1 [amazon.com]
Supermicro Workstation (Score:5, Informative)
Recently, we built a Supermicro Workstation 7047GR-TRF configuration. I am revising the system configuration to update the parts to get a comparable overview:
Supermicro Workstation 5037A-i - $580
Xeon E5-2643 v2 (fastest available) - $1552
Memory (4GB/ECC/DDR3-1866 x 4) - $240
Firepro W8000 (x2) - $2560
Intel SSD 910 400GB - $2000
Windows 8.1 Pro - $140
Others Accessories - $100
Total - $7,172
The base system will be pretty much high vs the $3,999 cost
In another comparison
Supermicro Workstation 5037A-i - $580
Xeon E5-2697 v2 - $2750
Memory (16GB/ECC/DDR3-1866 x 4) - $840
Firepro W9000 (x2) - $6800
Intel SSD 910 800GB - $4000
Windows 8.1 Pro - $140
Others Accessories - $100
Total - $15210
The configured system is still pretty high compared to $9599 from Apple pricing
Although specifications cannot be matched one is to one, I believe that the Windows workstation can be reduced in pricing by changing the Intel PCIe SSD and GPU to avoid using the top of the line products.
For example, using the following
Supermicro Workstation 5037A-i - $580
Xeon E5-2697 v2 - $2750
Memory (16GB/ECC/DDR3-1866 x 4) - $840
Quadro K5000 (x2) - $3200
Intel SSD DC S3700 200GB - $500
Windows 8.1 Pro - $140
Others Accessories - $100
Total - $8110
The configured Mac Pro is $8119 for the 256GB Storage and Dual D500.
So I guess the configuration will depend on the system.
For us though, we have found a more cost efficient alternative by buying a Supermicro 7047GR-TRF dual Intel Xeon socket and not using the top of the line for everything. But we are able to achieve 12 cores 2GHz, 64GB RAM, Nvidia K4000 for Display, Dual GTX680 GPU for compute, 8Gb FC Celerity HBA for around $5,000.00.
It will really depend on the applications to be used at the end. For us though, most of the applications are available in Windows and Linux configurations will limited Mac exclusivity so the PC solution is economical for us.
Re:Cost for a diy (Score:4, Informative)
The D700 is just a rebranded W9000. That card costs $3,300 retail. For each!
Re: Hard to believe (Score:5, Informative)
Final Cut Pro and Lightroom work so well in Linux.
By the way, there exists now an open source Lightroom clone called Darktable [darktable.org].
Re:Hard to believe (Score:4, Informative)
Because you have never priced workstation class parts maybe?
It is hard to find a Xeon that exactly matches the one in the Pro but the very top of the line socket 2011 Ivy Bridge EP xeon CPU is over $2500 on newegg.
The one closest to the one in the Mac Pro is this one
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117273 [newegg.com] and it is $1111.99 on newegg. So there is one third the price of the Pro right there.
Two Firepro w7000 GPUs are 700 each and you are at 2800 more or less. now add in the motherboard, ECC ram PCIe SSDs case and power supply and you can see the Pro is actually a good deal for what you get. Those are the prices off Newegg so yes you might find them cheaper but they are competitive.
A Dell workstation configured close to the Mac Pro is actually more expensive.
No, it means an hour or so down (Score:3, Informative)
With a vendor built, a component failure means a 2 week minimum turnaround where you're out of a machine
Not with Apple, and AppleCare. If they have the same system in an Apple store often they'll just swap it out if something is really wrong...
But the way the Mac Pro is built, it would be pretty easy to swap in replacement storage or GPU or memory to fix one of those items going bad. Or two switch all your custom cards into a set of cores they had stored in the back for replacements.
Re:People forget (Score:4, Informative)
($160 for a 850W PSU? I can pick up an equivalent PSU for about $60. I know which I'll use in my next system build).
FWIW skimping on a power supply is the one thing you should never do. It can ruin every other part in your computer.
DarkTable is not a clone (Score:5, Informative)
Re: Hard to believe (Score:2, Informative)
Linux's end-user experience is way behind because their driver model doesn't play well with binary drivers over the long term. It isn't a question of whether the apps require drivers, but rather how many years behind the Linux graphics drivers are, how many devices don't work with it out of the box, and so on. Sure, the major GPU vendors are starting to open source usable drivers recently, but getting there has been an uphill battle for the roughly 17 years that I've been using Linux on the side. And when it comes to having a usable desktop experience, that's important.
Re:People forget (Score:4, Informative)
I have noticed that Apple always picks parts carefully to make comparisons difficult or favour itself. If you relax the requirements slightly and just pick similar but not identical parts you can make huge savings.
The D700 GPUs are a good example. They are similar to the W9000s you can buy but not identical. Comparing prices directly is therefore not possible, because we don't know in what way the D700 is different. Considering the cooling and power requirements of W9000 cards it seems unlikely that what the Mac has is identical.
TFA is also making stupid choices. $50-75 for Bluetooth and wifi dongles? For about $30 you can have a BT4 dongle and 802.11ac card/dongle with top notch chipset and antennas. The motherboard he picked is stupid as well, not supporting the required 64GB RAM and being way overpriced.
Re:Why is this a surprise? (Score:4, Informative)
Except they are not equivalent at all. The GPU is similar but not the same. The motherboard choice is ridiculous, it doesn't support the required amount of RAM and is incredibly expensive. Despite that he started with a really, really, really expensive case and PSU so claimed he had "no choice". Either this is a deliberate attempt to get a particular answer or the guy just grabbed the first thing he found on Amazon and called it a day.