Has Apple Made Programmers Cool? 378
An anonymous reader writes "CNET suggests that Apple has totally changed the general public's perception of programmers: It's now suddenly cool to code. No matter what platform you're on. They argue that App Store millionaire success stories have 'turned a whole generation of geek coders from social misfits into superheroes.' Apparently, gone are the days when a programmer was the last person you wanted to talk to at a party: 'Mention to someone that you make apps and their interest will pick up instantly. This is an astonishing change from what a programmer in the '80s could have expected in reaction to their job description.' The App Store millionaires, or 'Appillionaires,' may have done all of us programmers a huge favor. Programming is now socially acceptable: 'Previous generations strapped on electric guitars and fought for super-stardom in sweaty dive bars, but today's youth boot up Xcode on their MacBook Pros.'"
No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the reasons is also that geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you read here on Slashdot some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about computers), go on and on about their own interests (computers, programming, RPG games..) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that. Geeks cannot grasp the concept of being and acting friendly to other people. It doesn't make only you feel awkward - it makes the other side feel awkward too.
I have enjoyed programming since I was 7-8 years old. I still kind of do. However, it has never been my whole life. There's one great thing growing up in computer generations. Since I turned 20, I've been traveling the world while working on the side. Since all I need for my work is a computer and an internet access, I can do it on the road. Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.
Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can. It's not that other people think programmers are uncool, it just comes from the fact that those people often cannot act socially. If an otherwise social and successful person tells he likes programming, does anyone care? No. It's just a matter of being social and not having the only interest in your life be programming.
million dollar idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.
If you use phrases of adolescent self-promotion such as "especially girls" and "all the women I've met", you're uncool.
on the contrary (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple has made "programmers" more likely to be nothing more than businessmen who have read a few coding books.
Headline might as well me "Prostitution makes partners sexy".
hackers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, they haven't (Score:3, Insightful)
"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."
"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."
First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills? Why "should" they try to improve them? Why does everyone in the world have to conform to your ideas?
Besides that - you seem to have exposure to an extremely small set of geeks or socially awkward people. You get friendly and unfriendly geeks, just the same as you do in any group of people. Socially awkward people may just be quiet people with low self esteem. They probably be quite happy to speak to you if you show that you're interested in speaking to them (that's kind of how I am). Then again they may just be misanthropic bastards, but you are taking a few "worst case" people and assuming that hundreds of millions of people are the same. Good job.
I bet that if a few Slashdot posters met up in real life they'd get on pretty damn well compared to how they do here. There would still be disagreements, but they'd be more civil and measured. It's far too easy to be impersonal online, and that's maybe where some of your tripe is stemming from. Have a look at YouTube comments sometime. It's not just geeks that appear to lose the concept of being friendly once they get behind a keyboard.
Money = Sexy (Score:5, Insightful)
Wishful thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, they haven't (Score:2, Insightful)
Way to misrepresent the argument. The problem is that people seem to lose common sense as soon as they sit down in front of a computer because they think it's magic, and they refuse to learn how to work with it.
I don't want to be cool (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that I have gotten away from that world, I don't want to be cool. It gets in the way too much.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
If talking about programming isn't cool, and programming is what you do (i.e. not something your daddy sent you to school for to cash in on) then you're simply talking to the wrong people. I don't care if programming is 'cool.' I understand that a lot of people aren't interested in software development, or algorithms, or computer science proper. Those people are uninteresting to me, just as I am uninteresting to them. I've got better things to do than make small talk.
Note that 'programming' is kind of like 'engineering' in that it covers a lot of smaller specific interests; my fiance knows little of code, but my keen interest in efficient model design and algorithmic data encapsulation fits firmly parallel her own interests (pursuing a PhD in economics). The opinions of the MBAs or the geologists or the lit crits are of relatively little importance to me.
I guess in a way it's a lot like GNU/Linux. The year of Linux on the desktop isn't here, and may never be here, and it doesn't matter, because I can still use it just fine. Hell, it's better than that because being open source it cannot disappear, and so long as there is a single person who knows a bit of code who likes it, it will see continued development. Do you see the parallel? I may never be a hit at parties given by people that are uninteresting to me, but it doesn't matter, because I love what I do, I do it well, and it's important to society at large, so I'll always be able to do it. I don't feel the need to be 'cool' and accrue superficial connections with people that I won't learn anything from and whom won't learn anything from me, simply because we're headed in different directions.
What I'm saying is 'cool' means 'form instead of function', and I suppose in that sense, yes, Apple has made programmers 'cool.'
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
It hasn't made programming cool, it has made some of the jobs based around programming appear cooler. If someone asks what you do and you reply that you're a cobol programmer woring for a mortgage company, it's hardly likely to make you seem like the coolest guy in the room. However, if you mention that you write apps for phones, or Facebook, or write games then it's likely to seem more interesting. People can relate to it as they will be using the devices and services you help create content for.
There's also a crossover now, with people who put together a Powerpoint presentation, or mark up an HTML page considering themselves programmers.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the reasons is also that geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you read here on Slashdot some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about computers), go on and on about their own interests (computers, programming, RPG games..) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that. Geeks cannot grasp the concept of being and acting friendly to other people. It doesn't make only you feel awkward - it makes the other side feel awkward too.
Well, if I need to talk about trash TV program, super cool new MTV stars, shoes and other brain-dead things then I really do not want to be friendly to other people. Is it too much too expect from others to switch on their brains and talk sometimes about some really important things (science, philosophy, history,...,meaning of life)?!
The "non-geeks" cannot grasp the concept of thinking so they are acting unfriendly to "geeks", so you must defend yourself.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:3, Insightful)
That is perspective depending Hazel, he _needs_ social skills otherwise he couldn't get the 'girls'. Apparently that is high on his priority list.
Everything, from programming to social interaction can be learned, unless you have a medical condition. However this doesn't mean it is easy to learn, for some people some things are harder then for others. Since time is limited, people need to make a choice am I going to spend time on what I am already good at and enjoy or do I grind through the learning process of learning some underdeveloped skill. I chose understanding and learning (generic technical topics) above social interaction, marketing and branding. Which puts me firmly in the geek territory, however this was a choice and I accept that the consequences are that the other skills are unrefined. Generally speaking I can get along with a lot of people, but I don't want to, nor do I care.
--
Martin P. Hellwig
Re:No, they haven't (Score:2, Insightful)
Cool? (Score:5, Insightful)
Having had my fair share of "cool" nightlife for many years in a major European city that is very popular everywhere in the world, I can hereby attest that people who think of themselves as being "cool" tend to be morons.
Here is a little anecdote. While I was slacking around not finishing my studies I've once met a mathematician who was working on the mathematics of string theory and told me he was for many years getting up every morning at 8 o'clock, had a cup of tea (not coffee...bad for concentration), learned math the whole day long, and didn't have any social life (bad for concentration). He was incredibly smart but also really happy to finally have a beer with someone. I wouldn't say he was cool then. However, I'm pretty sure he is cool in another sense now, because he likely does something really interesting nowadays--something that halfway mature people will probably find "cool" although they cannot understand it.
So basically, what I want to say is: forget about the instant gratification of "coolness" and do what really interests you.
(Well, to be honest I never checked what this guy is doing now, so he could also just have become a cab driver.... hehhehe)
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills?
IMO programming is inherently a social activity. Aren't most programmers writing things that other people are meant to interact with? When you code, don't you ask the users what they think of your creation, how to improve it, etc? Don't you also try to influence how they use the program? That's a social thing, surely?
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
And the silly thing is, most of those disdainful programmers don't know anything about solid state physics, the fundamental discipline that gives them the ability to run their programs in the first place. In other words, if you keep behaving like a nerd, you will still be considered a dweeb by others. Disclaimer: I don't know much about the subject, either.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the reasons is also that non-geeks in general don't understand good manners. They view down to people with other interests (how many times have you heard some rants about how stupid people are because they don't know everything about celebrities or sports), go on and on about their own interests (celebrities, sports, fashion ...) without even thinking if the other side is interested to talk about that.
Quite possibly the dumbest thing ever on /. (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's saying something. This is utter shit.
Programming stopped being something relegated to socially awkward types that nobody likes at least a decade ago, and really even longer then that. It was cool a long time ago. Then it wasn't.
You know what's happened now? Very little. When people use your stuff, they tend to be more interested in you. That's ALWAYS been true. Oh, and being loaded also helps, because money is sexy.
All they've done with this article is take a stereotype that wasn't true before, and said "hey, somehow Apple fixed it years before the product that fixed it existed! Aren't they awesome!?"
No. The only thing demonstrated here is how uncool and out of touch Slashdot is.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
The only reason for the change is that more socially skilled persons have started using computers at an young age, and continued doing so (and even started programming) while still maintaining their social skills. Don't worry - if you were socially awkward before, you're still as uncool as you even were.
The computer is the introvert's best friend. With it, you can almost avoid talking to a live person. You buy things online, you don't have to deal with shop staff. Or bank staff in your online bank. And any other self-service solution. With check-in machines, bag drops and ticket scanners you can now go on a flight without talking to anyone, unless you're halted in the security control. At work, you can be a "productive enough to be left alone" worker having as little contact with your boss or colleagues (or rather PHB and cow-orkers) as possible. Or at least limited it to technical work things. At home you can game away pretending to have a life, least your avatar has one. I mean you always had shut-ins but they were also extremely bound by it. Today you can almost be a Sheldon and not clash with society, which used to force you into dealing with other people. If anything it's easier than ever to be a hermit in the middle of the city.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree to most of your points but I think you seriously mix up geeks with nerds.
Re:Appillionaires? (Score:2, Insightful)
I have a feeling the author of the article made it up. There's a link in the article to a book on Amazon by the title of Appillionaires: Secrets from Developers Who Struck It Rich on the App Store which just happens to be by the author of the article. How about that. A total coincidence.
mod up. explains the articles existence _totally_. make up a word, make up a book, make up hype and hope some bozos buy the book to learn how to strike rich with soundboards.
Why is this a "programming" article? (Score:5, Insightful)
The rest of the article goes more or less downhill from there. No real evidence for anything, just a few anecdotes, lots of baseless speculation, and unfettered fawning over Apple.
I could accept this if it were categorized in the "humor" section.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, the Journalist Reality Distortion Field (Score:5, Insightful)
Journalist - specifically columnists - live in a social media bubble, mostly interacting with other columnists, PR bunnies, socialites and assorted wasters and parasites, among whom iProducts are essentially de rigour. Daaaahling, surely you're not still using that palaeolithic iPhone 3, one might as well just bash two rocks against one's head until one is tempted to vote Republican. (snorts of laughter, clink of glasses)
Among their social whirl, I'm sure that iApp iDevelopers are like adorable little nerd godlings, but I don't think we can generalise from that to the real world.
Missing the obvious (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it totally sucks having to work with socially abhorant people, it makes the day worse for everyone around them. Even the ones that are polite, but introverted and quiet become a communication energy drain eventually.
Whilst you're right, they don't have to conform to anyone's ideas of the social norm, it helps everyone around you if you have a reasonable set of social skills, which in turn helps yourself.
Unless of course you are a basement dwelling millionaire, cranking out appstore apps with no human contact, then by all means carry on, but that lady that serves you Cheetos would have a much better day if you smiled at her when paying!
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
On your claim of non-friendlyness of geeks: That's wrong. It's just that geeks and non-geeks have slightly different notions of what is friendly.
A typical example, a geek considers it unfriendly to bother other people with a question without first trying to solve it yourself. On the other hand, most non-geeks will consider it unfriendly to ask someone to do some research themselves. Therefore a typical scenario is the following:
A non-geek asks a geek about some problem, and it is clear from the question that he didn't make an effort to solve it himself.
Now for the geek that's just unfriendly (friends don't waste friends' time), therefore he asks the non-geek to first do his own research.
Now the non-geek considers that unfriendly, and getting accused for something he considers normal, he complains about that answer.
The geek, being accused for suggesting something he considers normal (even fundamental), then complains about the complaint of the other one.
In the end, both consider each other as violating the most fundamental rules which should be obvious to everyone and then even complains if he is told that.
Re:million dollar idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they have a "million dollar app idea" and they want you to design, program, test, and release it for them, and then they'll give you a cut.
I've had that conversation. And yet, every time it always seems to include the words "like Angry Birds*, but..."
Ask them what their million dollar idea offers that the original doesn't? Blank stare.
*Or some other uber-popular, well-entrenched bit of pap.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Quiet introverts are only a communication drain for extroverts. Extroverts are a communication energy drain for inroverts.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
I get what you're saying, it's all quite sensible - but I think anyone who is really socially aware should try to put themselves in other's shoes rather than expect everyone to be like they are.
It's funny that you should say introverted people can be a drain on others, because that's exactly how introverts feel about all social interaction. Last year I met the quietest woman I've ever met - she finds it incredibly draining to have to be around other people all the time, and prefers at least a day a week to herself to "recharge". I think all of us can understand that feeling to some extent, but there are people out there who have to deal with an exaggerated version of that feeling, and there's very little they can do to change that short of taking medication.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't confuse being alone with being lonely.
I have never found a companion that was so companionable as solitude. We are for the most part more lonely when we go abroad among men than when we stay in our chambers. A man thinking or working is always alone, let him be where he will.
-- Henry David Thoreau
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone has been on that business trip with the guy who just won't talk... you spend hours and hours with them at the airport, at meals, in the car driving to and from your destination, and they don't say a word! It's miserable. You'd rather be there by yourself than be with the guy who can't say anything more than "hello" and "good night."
Even worse is the guy who just won't shut up. Ever sit next to one of them on a plane when you just want to read?
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Along the way I've met lots of interesting people (and especially girls) who I've all told to that I do programming for a living and it's also how I can travel around the world and live on the road. If anything, that has made people interested. And I really don't myself as an uncool guy, nor do all the women I've met along.
During my world travels (1989-90), I met a guy in his 50s who worked for SwissAir (turbine mechanic was about as nerdy as it got in 1960 when he started), he was buying me beers at a bar across from the Zurich train station while I waited for my train and sobbing his woes to me - mostly how he had never met a woman he could have a real relationship with. Sure, lots of women while traveling, that's easy, but to stick with one for more than a few weeks at a time is a lot more challenging.
When you travel, you are "promoted" in attractiveness since you are exotic, people also cut you a break for some of the slightly "off" things you might do because you are not from around there, this, of course, varies from place to place (e.g. native Parisians will openly dis you for being an outsider, doubly so if you have managed to fool them for a little while that you might be "one of them." Fear not, there are plenty of other "outsiders" in Paris who will treat you well, and even the natives start coming around if you are willing to pay $30 and up for a meal.)
I think nerds, in general, suffer from the "uncanny valley" syndrome - similar enough to normal behavior to creep people out when they perceive the differences. Since the explosion in television channels, and programming, there have been a lot more popular shows depicting all kinds of "fringe" behavior, which is certainly an easier way for "normal" people to start to learn and possibly accept accept some of the differences. A 60 minute weekly TV show is certainly less threatening than taking a trip to a Star Trek convention, or "the Big Nerd Ranch."
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit - I'm a developer who's evolved into a guy who programs in between management and handling business relationships. The kinds of people who work better when left alone for extended periods of time just aren't that good. The best developers take advantage of being part of a group. Just talking about stuff with each other greatly improves what they produce. The interaction breeds better ideas, and having people to bounce ideas off, or even just banter with, keeps frustration levels down.
Yeah, that's true, but it neglect the fact that humans are inherently social.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:5, Insightful)
Quiet introverts are only a communication drain for extroverts. Extroverts are a communication energy drain for inroverts.
All things in life need balance - a group of extroverts will spend an hour on morning coffee, two on lunch, and schedule themselves into informal and formal meetings for most of the day. If all you have are extroverts, nothing gets done.
If you have an "introvert farm" with each in their own little bubble, it can be very hard to "herd the cats" into a common activity without dragging them into some meetings. If you don't get them in meetings often enough, the meetings become painful experiences for everybody involved.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:4, Insightful)
The act of programming itself is certainly not inherently social.
Only when we limit the definition of programming to the mere act of typing instructions or prototyping an algorithm. In other words, this is true only if you equate the act of programming itself with the act of coding at the micro level. That has not been true for several decades now.
Also, with a programming task above a certain level of complexity, even if you methodically divide and conquer, you have to go back to some source for clarification on requirements or requirement discovery, verification and validation, peer consultation and verification. This is specially true for necessarily volatile business requirements and/or non-functional requirements that will have an effect in the architecture of any non-trivial, sufficiently complex system.
Most programmers seem to code much better when they are left to themselves for hours/days/weeks to just fully immerse themselves in the problem that they're trying to solve.
Under ideal conditions when you know enough of the problem (and there are no external forces to cope with) this is true for most. But programming does not occur under those conditions. I would also argue that if someone needs/thinks to need to immerse in a problem for weeks, there is a chance to introduce errors and come up with a flawed solution. A task requiring weeks of immersion is a task/problem of such complexity that it requires constant collaboration, validation and verification from peers in order to achieve an appropriate solution for the aforementioned task/problem.
Other areas of software development can benefit from having good social skills, for example if you get involved with the customer then you can save a lot of wasted time having to re-write things when they come back and say "that's not what we asked for!".
It's not only customers, but liaisons, business analysts, vendors, admins, fellow programmers in the same team, programmers in external teams, program managers (and if you do R&D or work with the DoD or DoE, with systems engineers, electrical/computer engineers, mechanical engineers, etc.) In other words, stakeholders.
You also have to bear in mind that not all programming is applications programming There are researchers who may be writing programs to solve specific problems where there is no end user per se. Other people may use the code or ideas that have emerged from solving this problem, but they will probably just read that that in a paper rather than strictly requiring any social interaction.
My point exactly, we rarely get days (and surely never get weeks) to immerse ourselves in a solution space when programming. We can't, as it is a sure way to produce the wrong solution for the wrong problem. That is what differentiates the mere act of coding with the act of programming (which itself is different from the act of systems and software engineering and development.)
Also when it comes to writing things like device drivers, the only thing you'd really expect to get back from users are bug reports.
Really, and where do they get their requirements for said drivers then? In addition of users bug reports, said programmers get requirements from marketing, market/product development and R&D. I think there is too much focus here on "users". Think stakeholders.
Re:No, they haven't (Score:2, Insightful)
"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."
"Like it or not, social skills are.. well, skills. If you suck at them, you should try to improve them any way you can."
First off - If someone's only interest is programming, why the hell would they care about social skills?
Because as a co-worker, they absolutely suck to work with them.
Because, as an employer, it absolutely sucks to hire them and then find out that they suck at doing what I'm paying them to do (which is not to code alone in a fucking corner, but to work with other co-workers to come up with a solution to complex problems that cannot be solve by one single person, however genius said person might be.)
Because, as a customer, I will face products that are not necessarily are what I paid for. It is bad enough because it is almost inevitable with complex software. But to have that situation partially (and sometimes totally) because a social fuck-o throws a behavioral monkey wrench in the machinery that is trying to get shit done.
In other words, because they suck, and they cost money, and because they milk paychecks while acting like prima donas. That's why.
Why "should" they try to improve them?
If you really have to ask yourself that question...