Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Education Math Apple News Science

School Swaps Math Textbooks For iPads 439

Posted by samzenpus
from the there-goes-the-tech-budget dept.
MexiCali59 writes "Four of California's largest school districts will be trying something new on eighth-grade algebra students this year: giving them iPads instead of textbooks. The devices come pre-loaded with a digital version of the text, allowing students to view teaching videos, receive homework assistance and input assignment all without picking up a pen or paper. If the students with iPads turn out to do improve at a faster pace than their peers as expected, the program could soon spread throughout the Golden State."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

School Swaps Math Textbooks For iPads

Comments Filter:
  • by elrous0 (869638) * on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @04:56PM (#33513452)
    Apple announces free iPad program for school administrators in California.
  • Expensive (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Niris (1443675) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @04:56PM (#33513456)
    California is in the middle of a hiring freeze for the State, and a huge deficit. Where exactly are they getting the money for these iPad projects for these districts, let alone for the rest of the State if they decide to advance it?
    • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Darkness404 (1287218) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @04:57PM (#33513462)
      Because California, like the rest of the USA is immune to the laws of economics!
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by diskofish (1037768)
        Same as here in NY. School districts are bitching about the state withholding funds. In reality, they waste money on unnecessary crap like in TFA. To make the bitching even more egregious, most districts have plenty of money saved in "rainy day" type funds to cover budgets shortfalls.
        • Well, dire financial straits should be allowed to affect taxpayers and other areas of state and local budgets, but damned if the big-spending boards should have to worry about getting paid.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Compholio (770966)

          Same as here in NY. School districts are bitching about the state withholding funds. In reality, they waste money on unnecessary crap like in TFA.

          For a lot of places the "tech" funds are independent of their general budget. As you are likely aware you generally do not replace computers every year; however, if on the years you don't replace equipment you don't spend your tech money then you lose it for when you do need to buy new equipment.

          To make the bitching even more egregious, most districts have plent

          • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:34PM (#33513994)

            The logic of the bureaucracy is simply lunacy.

            "Why are you blowing your full budget?"

            "I do not want to have my budget cut for next year."

            "But you didn't need it all this year."

            "Yeah, but I want more next year."

            That's what is happening in every government agency. If the idiots in charge were not all collectively doing this, then, for starters, there would be a rainy day fund when they really needed it. Agencies would actually be able to request bigger budgets when they really needed it, and, this is crazy, we'd actually have money to give them.

            It should be criminal to blow a budget simply to try and get the same amount or more for the next budget cycle.

            • Re:Expensive (Score:5, Insightful)

              by jargon82 (996613) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @07:59PM (#33515374)
              It should be criminal to base next years funding on what was spent last year and little else. This needs to be fixed before any of these depts are going to address the other side of it (spending in order to have access in the future to similar funds). I've seen some downright insane wastes as a result of end of year surpluses.
        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by froggymana (1896008)
          Better teacher lounges are not a waste of money in the school's teacher's minds.
      • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

        by copponex (13876)

        Because the USA, unlike the rest of the world, is immune to the idea that investing in education and infrastructure yields tangible benefits for society!

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Darkness404 (1287218)
          But it doesn't. You can't just throw money at a problem and find a solution, in fact the most worthwhile solutions are the ones that cost the least. The US government has no problems tossing money in education/infrastructure but its all worthless because they are simply redistributing wealth that is more efficiently done in the private sector. Consider a private school, barring some of the weird religious schools which specialize in fascism and indoctrination, private schools are in general better because t
          • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

            by natespizer (1362373)
            One important fact is that if a parent is paying for the education there is a good chance they will be more invested in making sure their student does a good job rather than just blaming everything on the teacher or school. You will get much more parent participation in event and activities and in most cases it is mandatory.
          • Re:Expensive (Score:5, Insightful)

            by copponex (13876) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:51PM (#33514218) Homepage

            Private schools perform better because of selection bias. Parents who care about their child's education will go the extra mile, including spending extra money that doesn't always yield results. Stable families and finances are the determining factor in academic success, not the source of the funding for the school.

            As someone who went to a private and a public high school, the only difference was that everyone at the private school never wanted for anything and most never had jobs other than school, while in public school a few miles away, they had night jobs just so they could make ends meet for their family. One major problem is that high schools in the US are treated like minimum security prisons for teenagers. Ending truancy laws once they turn 15 could solve the biggest problem of teachers being forced to control students who won't want to be there in the first place.

            But really, your entire argument rests on the belief that anyone born poor or with learning disabilities does not deserve an education. That's a pretty low moral standard to aim for, and one you are strangely proud of.

          • by spazdor (902907) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:52PM (#33514258)

            Governments breed waste, inefficiency and tyranny and can never lead to a net gain for society when compared to a private institution.

            Private institutions breed greed, cartels and perverse incentives and can never lead to a decision-making process which would choose a net gain for society over a greater gain for itself.

            Yes, both of these sentences are moronic oversimplifications.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Sponge Bath (413667)

            Governments breed waste, inefficiency and tyranny and can never lead to a net gain for society when compared to a private institution.

            Never? Taking that at face value you must advocate the elimination of laws, courts, police, and military (all government institutions) to be replaced with the might makes right anarchy of every man for himself (the ultimate private institution). To me that sounds like a net loss for society.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            No, you can't throw money at it, but at the same time, that's not necessarily what the GP is talking about.

            Invest is a transitive verb--it's usually used to refer to money, but you also invest time and effort. In particular, investing in education and infrastructure is as much about allowing or encouraging people to invest their efforts as it is about the money--when you are investing in a non-established company, you are giving them money yes, but you are giving them an opportunity to try new things that

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by nine-times (778537)

            the idea that investing in education and infrastructure yields tangible benefits for society!

            But it doesn't. You can't just throw money at a problem and find a solution...

            I just want to point out that your response doesn't match what you're responding to. The idea was not "throwing money at the problem of education yields tangible benefits".

            Or do you think that money spent on education is a waste? A society should not bother educating their citizenry? Is it all that simple, that investments in education are all simply waste?

            Or would it be fair to say that education costs money, but an effective and efficient education system will ultimately be worth the resources direct

          • Re:Expensive (Score:5, Informative)

            by dcollins (135727) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @07:00PM (#33515012) Homepage

            "Why is it that almost every single privately educated student is better educated than a public school educated student despite massive redistribution of wealth? With a private school, they have to make every dollar count."

            That's, like, one of the dumbest and most disingenuous arguments I've ever seen. The actual answer is simply: Because private schools are rich and spend about twice as much money on average.

            The secular private schools analyzed in the study spent $20,100 on each student in the 2007-08 school year vs. $10,100 in public schools. [Washington Post, "Per-Student Spending Gaps Wider Than Known", Aug-31, 2009]

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/30/AR2009083002335.html [washingtonpost.com]

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by Drogo007 (923906)

              You also missed that private schools get to select students to avoid all the problem students that suck down lots and lots of resources in the public school system, so Private Schools can more efficiently use their resources.

          • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Insightful)

            by node 3 (115640) on Thursday September 09, 2010 @12:22AM (#33517060)

            Because the USA, unlike the rest of the world, is immune to the idea that investing in education and infrastructure yields tangible benefits for society!

            But it doesn't.

            Congratulations on just proving his point.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by MaWeiTao (908546)

          That's a ridiculous statement you make considering the US spends more per student, by far, than any other country on Earth. The small city where I live spends more than the next highest country which is in Northern Europe. And it's not a little more, it's thousands more they spend. The city has had budget problems for decades now. A significant portion of the population is low-income.

          The problem is that too many schools in the city are still crap. But the money ends up going to garbage. If it's not a gimmi

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by techwrench (586424)
      If you have lived there, you would know that trivial things like deficits are to looked down upon with disdain..... Think of the Children!!!!!
      • by Niris (1443675)
        Worse than living there, I've worked for the State as an intern . laid off twice, ftw.
      • by VTI9600 (1143169)

        No...Think of the environment!!! No costs must be spared to save the dozen or so trees that would have otherwise be converted into textbooks.

    • Re:Expensive (Score:5, Interesting)

      by kevinNCSU (1531307) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:03PM (#33513568)
      Between the cost of a textbook and the rate at which they become 'obsolete' for the state testing I'd imagine with an educational discount from Apple (no need to make the state pay taxes to itself and can prolly write off some of it as a donation) they probably aren't whole lot more expensive than your regular schoolbook in the long run. Course I'd be interested in knowing what the policy is for broken iPads. Do the kid's parents have to shell out the money for a new iPad? you would for a replacement book.
      • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Insightful)

        by mark72005 (1233572) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:14PM (#33513744)
        Collegiate textbooks cost around $100, and most high schools are re-using books for 4-5 years (or, these days, stretching them out even longer). I highly doubt this is a cost savings.

        (as if any new government program ever results in cost savings anyway)
        • by spazdor (902907)

          Collegiate textbooks cost around $100

          ...And you need a separate one for each class you're in.

          • And how much is the cost of that electronic textbook's license per student? Probably less than $100, but definitely not free. Plus that electronic license probably won't be recycled for 4-5 years like a paper book might be.

            I looked at the numbers a few weeks ago for some textbooks for Grad school. My numbers came close without even the cost of an iPad (in my case a Kindle). I can't imagine it would be economical for 8th graders, who will probably not be extremely careful with those iPads.

            • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Insightful)

              by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:52PM (#33514242)

              And how much is the cost of that electronic textbook's license per student? Probably less than $100, but definitely not free.

              Free.

              Schwarzenegger launched a program in 2009 to create digital textbooks in math and science owned by the state board of education. At the end of 2009 they had ten texts, including math through Calc 1 and 2.

      • Re:Expensive (Score:5, Informative)

        by BobMcD (601576) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:15PM (#33513762)

        Between the cost of a textbook and the rate at which they become 'obsolete' for the state testing...

        Are you asserting that books last less than three years? Because I'm relatively certain that there will be nearly no usable iPads in that same amount of time. They're simply not designed to outlive their replacement models.

        • There's been only 1 iPad out, what are you basing this assertion on?

          • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Interesting)

            by BobMcD (601576) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:37PM (#33514028)

            Years and years of experience with consumer electronics.

            Or is the iPad made of magical pixie dust and will therefore not be subject to industry norms? I can see Jobs now, "Profit be damned! There will be only one iPad, and no one will ever want to upgrade it, EVER!"

            Yeah, no.

        • I feel like the jury is probably still out on the average lifespan of an iPad, but what I'm wondering is if the schools see this as a way to always pass the cost of a replacement on to a student. iPad breaks because it's just plain old? Well, your kid must have broken it, it was working when we gave it to him, so you'll have to pay for the new one! Now all the school has to pay for is updates to the online textbooks.
      • by mea37 (1201159)

        Well, someone still has to buy the textbook content (and other software) to put on the iPad. I'm not sure the expected lifespan for an iPad, but I'd argue that textbooks are more durable in the face of handling by a highschool (or younger) student who doesn't own it. Also consider that Apple designs its products to be used for a certain duration and then discarded (so you'll buy the new one).

        The concept may have merit if the software adds value above and beyond what you get from a textbook. I cannot see

    • Maybe it has something to do with this [guardian.co.uk]?

      Personally, the idea of an impersonal video showing boring math material would be even worse than have an instructor do it, but perhaps this will allow the more "advanced" students to go at their own pace.

      I did attend an "open classroom" for several years and in one of those years, I was allowed to race ahead and finished the english and math curriculum several months ahead of schedule so I could spend more time on that wonderful TI-99 4A [wikipedia.org] hooked up to the beautiful col

    • Done right, this could make economic sense. Textbook prices have been rising far faster than inflation [back2schoolmoms.com], nearly doubling in 20 years. Some math textbooks can cost over $100. Even assuming they cost only $50, an electronic device at a cost 10 textbooks, but which does much more and can be easily updated, could be a bargain. (In theory, that is. I'm assuming the school district plans well and the kids don't trash them.)
    • by perpenso (1613749) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:07PM (#33513624)

      California is in the middle of a hiring freeze for the State, and a huge deficit. Where exactly are they getting the money for these iPad projects for these districts, let alone for the rest of the State if they decide to advance it?

      This is a pilot program, Houghton Mifflin and/or Apple are probably subsidizing it.

      A pilot program is designed to measure the effectiveness of the device and the costs. It is plausible that a reusable digital device loaded with numerous textbooks could be less expensive than the corresponding set of paper textbooks. Also keep in mind that today's $500 iPad will probably be around $250 in a couple of years. and those are retail prices not educational institution prices.

      • Much as I dislike them, why not a Kindle loaded with text books. That would be much much less than iPads and less likely to be used for other purposes (like watching YouTube during class).
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by perpenso (1613749)

          Much as I dislike them, why not a Kindle loaded with text books. That would be much much less than iPads and less likely to be used for other purposes (like watching YouTube during class).

          1. Color is extensively used in modern textbooks.
          2. Textbooks are incorporating more software and multimedia.

          I had the opportunity to work with a textbook publisher regarding the software bundled with a chemistry textbook. This software included chemical diagramming (2D - for reports and such) and 3D model building and visualization. We also had a few movies illustrating some basic principles. All of this could easily be done on an iPad and be bundled with the textbook. Not so for today's Kindle. I

        • by Jerf (17166)

          You want them to be useful for the other tasks, though. The revolution in education will not come from simply digitizing the old ways of educating, it will come from using computers to do things you couldn't do without them. Kindles won't permit that.

          In fact, the studious inability for the education world to realize this and act on it is a significant part of the reason why they disgust me so.

      • This is a pilot program, Houghton Mifflin and/or Apple are probably subsidizing it.

        This may be partly a reaction to California's Free Digital Textbook Initiative [bbc.co.uk]. I went to a symposium about the FDTI last summer (more about that symposium here [theassayer.org]. The people interested enough to come were an odd-bedfellows mixture of free-information enthusiasts, commercial textbook companies, and computer hardware companies. The ones with a really, really strong pecuniary motive for participating are the hardware companies.

    • by guruevi (827432)

      From the money they hope to save in providing books on the long term I guess. At $50-150 (or more once you get to college) per book these costs really add up. I believe the current average textbook expenses in the US is somewhere near $1000/student/year and you have to take into account that in that number, many rent or buy second hand books and many more simply can't afford the books (like in my city school district where nobody has textbooks). Add to that the gigantic logistics cost of tons (literally) of

      • by initdeep (1073290)

        there are very few high school text books which are useless the next year.

        in fact, per the local school district, they EXPECT to get at least 5 years per textbook of life span.

        some are even longer.

        and per the article, this is for a GRADE 8 CLASS. Meaning these aren't even high school students in most districts.

    • by VTI9600 (1143169)

      Isn't it obvious? The money will come from the parents who have so much spare cash to throw around. Supporting a family in this economy practically pays for itself, right?

    • Re:Expensive (Score:4, Interesting)

      by cgenman (325138) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:12PM (#33513702) Homepage

      400 students for a pilot program? That doesn't sound like too much money to prove (or more likely squelch) the theory that more computers = smarter students.

      Also, I'd guess these are being provided either free or at-cost by Apple, with partner Hughton Mifflin bearing the brunt of other costs. By the wording of the article, they seem to be the ones having commissioned the study, not the other way around.

      As a side note, why is it always that "something is going bad here, so we shouldn't do anything about anything else until that is fixed." I've heard that people are starving, so why send people into space. We're at war with Russia, why do we need a civilian network. This isn't an A or B choice. When the state is broke, you have to find ways to make basic research continue to happen. Maybe the study will prove that, as I suspect, throwing money at technology is less effective than throwing money at smaller class sizes. Maybe it will show that the extra expense is worth it, especially as it can be amortized over several classes. Students cost thousands of dollars per year anyway. Or maybe there will be a little bump, and California will jump in with India's $100 tablet effort.

      Or maybe we need a giant K-12 edu-wiki, which can be drawn from by all teachers and students across the state, and across the country. Oh right, somebody stubbed a toe, so we should just go home until they feel better.

    • http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100822/ap_on_re_us/us_taj_mahal_schools

      LA unveils $578M school, costliest in the nation

      LOS ANGELES – Next month's opening of the Robert F. Kennedy Community Schools will be auspicious for a reason other than its both storied and infamous history as the former Ambassador Hotel, where the Democratic presidential contender was assassinated in 1968.

      With an eye-popping price tag of $578 million, it will mark the inauguration of the nation's most expensive public school ever
    • by nosilA (8112)

      If it is, in fact, more effective at teaching students, it could potentially lead to larger class sizes, which could easily pay for the device. I am skeptical that it will be effective, but it could be - that's why they do pilot programs. I'm sure they will quickly begin to use it for other courses, too. I can see it being particularly useful for foreign languages (where being able to hear the text is important). I think the interactive textbook idea can also be really useful in science (especially at t

  • I hope those Ipads were free from apple, because last I checked there was some sort of budget issue over in California.
  • by GodfatherofSoul (174979) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:00PM (#33513508)

    I've seen Android devices for a fraction of the price. When you consider how much text books are going for nowadays, the thought that a student or school can rent textbook access could be a major game changer. I had semesters in college where textbooks alone were $300+ and that was 15 years ago.

    • I should add that when I worked in the university's library, I was always told that the rapidly increasing costs for texts and periodicals was attributed to the cost for paper (just as for comics).

    • by Darkness404 (1287218) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:03PM (#33513562)
      But the problem is with the publisher, not with the educational institution. Textbook publishers regularly screw students/schools for what is essentially public domain material.

      In all honesty, using free primary sources and teaching the class from that would be a lot cheaper than textbooks for most classes.
  • Khan Academy. (Score:5, Informative)

    by 0100010001010011 (652467) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:05PM (#33513594)

    http://www.khanacademy.org/ [khanacademy.org] really does kick ass. I'm using some of his 5-10 minute videos to supplement my graduate level Linear Algebra stuff. Most of it's straight to the point and if I need clarification on a subject I don't have to turn to the book.

    Now how this saves money. I won't know. Then again text books aren't cheap. What ever happened to the OpenSource textbook that I thought CA was assembling to be 'free'?

    • It just occurred to me they're probably not going to just replace the text books. Probably looking at replacing the Math teachers too.

      Why pay someone with experience or an education when you can get a babysitter for minimum wage and force all the kids to watch Khan Academy on their iPads?

    • by VTI9600 (1143169)

      The key word here is "supplement". I can't count the number of times I've been frustrated by being made to watch a video after Googling around for a tutorial on something or a solution to some technical problem. Reading is simply faster and more efficient than watching videos (unless of course you're dyslexic), yet, "instant access to more than 400 videos" is the major selling point of this program.

      I could maybe see the value of providing iPads to kids with learning disabilities...that is, if such a progr

  • by Sonny Yatsen (603655) * on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:08PM (#33513652) Journal

    Maybe I'm just a Luddite, but half the appeal of learning from a book (especially for a subject like math) was the ability to quickly flip between half a dozen pages to get to the right charts, reference sheets, and examples, and being able to scribble my illegible notes in the margins. I guess you could do it with an iPad with bookmarks and annotations, but I can't imagine it being anywhere near as natural or as easy as you can with a regular old textbook.

    • by AndrewNeo (979708) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:22PM (#33513858) Homepage

      I don't know about in California, but when I was in 8th grade I would sure as hell have gotten in a lot of trouble for writing in my books.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by FunPika (1551249)
      I agree with that...my teachers offer online versions of our textbooks as an alternative for doing homework for people who don't want to carry their books home...but I HATE using the online versions. It feels so much harder to get to the page I'm looking for (especially if it comes to an assignment where you will want to frequently swap between the actual section your studying and things like the glossary/index at the back of the book). Of course assuming the IPad books are stored on the IPad itself and not
    • by Zerth (26112)

      Maybe I'm just a Luddite, but half the appeal of learning from a book (especially for a subject like math) was the ability to quickly flip between half a dozen pages to get to the right charts, reference sheets, and examples, and being able to scribble my illegible notes in the margins. I guess you could do it with an iPad with bookmarks and annotations, but I can't imagine it being anywhere near as natural or as easy as you can with a regular old textbook.

      I'd rather have an electronic book with a notebook

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Hatta (162192)

      quickly flip between half a dozen pages to get to the right charts, reference sheets, and examples

      eBooks are searchable.

      being able to scribble my illegible notes in the margins.

      Good god no! Writing in books is evil.

  • First Line (Score:4, Interesting)

    by VTI9600 (1143169) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:12PM (#33513698)

    The first line FTFA was what got me:

    A pilot project in four California school districts will replace 400 students' eighth-grade algebra textbooks with Apple iPads in an attempt to prove the advantages of interactive digital technologies over traditional teaching methods.

    Didn't we prove that computers have educational value back in the 80's? Then, wasn't it proved a hundred more times throughout the 90's? I guess sometimes you can never have quite enough proof.

  • online. Anyone with any reasonable device should be able to access it.

    • +1 insightful

      Seriously, why limit the students to iPads? When did the school system suddenly become a venue for creating lock-in where it doesn't need to exist? And with all the DRM on iPads, I really do not want to see textbooks on that platform -- textbook publishers pull all sorts of evil tactics already, why give them even more options for trampling on students?
  • Textbook expenses are obnoxious. Not only does one have the cost of the book, but one must pay for storage to hold the books. At the central facility one must pay for people to manage the books. Check in and check out of text books is generally a multiday process that take an administrator, so just in pay we are talking at a couple thousand dollars per year per school. Books get lost and there is really no way to get kids to pay for books anymore. It is voluntary. You see this in the school library.
  • I could buy an iPad with the money I have but I'll take a regular textbook any day, namely because they can't take the book away from you.

    Additionally, the hardware is more of a novelty than anything else at this point- too expensive, too fragile (especially for middle schoolers), too much of a target for theft, and not advanced enough.

    The textbook companies love this concept, since it kills secondhand ownership. You can sell licenses to eBooks just like software!

    Also, math input without a stylus or k
  • The Oops Factor (Score:4, Insightful)

    by b4upoo (166390) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @05:29PM (#33513946)

    And who will pay for the lost, drowned or bashed Ipads? Eighth grade kids are rougher than boot camp at Paris Island!

    • by neurocutie (677249) on Wednesday September 08, 2010 @06:02PM (#33514376)

      you means "Oops, I lost it (i.e. I sold it for $400), please give me another..."

      in these discussions, people are assuming that the digital textbooks are FREE, kinda like assuming that digital music (e.g. MP3) is free and that all the costs are in the CD media (in the book format itself)... WRONG...

      all you're doing is trading $10 worth of a pretty rugged yet not very steal/lost-susceptible format with a 5+ year life (a book) for a $400, fragile, VERY steal/lost prone format (ipad) with an at-best 2 year life... the costs of the content is going to be similar.

  • For the ADD/ASD kids in class who

    could not write down notes fast enough because their fine motor coordination was shot to hell and the idiot teacher didn't understand that their 8 x 11 piece of paper wasn't as wide as a 16ft whiteboard

    couldn't follow said teacher half the time because the kids whispering behind them drowned out the teacher's loud voice

    who were denied the copious examples they needed to understand how stuff worked due to the easy-odd-problems-with-answers-hard-even-problems-no-answers BS tha

"Silent gratitude isn't very much use to anyone." -- G. B. Stearn

Working...