Apple, AT&T Sued Over iPhone 4 Antennas 435
bannable writes "Apple has been accused of violation of the Federal Communications Act, three counts of products liability related to negligence, defect in design and breach of implied warranty, intentional and negligent misrepresentation, fraud by concealment, unfair business practices and more. 'The iPhone 4 manifests design and manufacturing defects that were known to Defendants before it was released which were not disclosed to consumers, namely, a connection problem caused by the iPhone 4's antenna configuration that makes it difficult or impossible to maintain a connection to AT&T's network,' the California complaint reads."
Not surprisingly (Score:4, Insightful)
This will have no affect on Apple's sales.
Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of times (I suspect most of the time) these sorts of class-action lawsuits are instigated by not just the usual suspects (greedy lawyers), but also with the support of the companies themselves. The lawyers get a big payday. The company gets shielded from any further individual lawsuits. And the consumers get stripped of their right to sue individually, for the "settlement" of a "5% off your next purchase" coupon.
In other words, when you hear "class-action lawsuit," don't think "Yeah, we're sticking it to the big guys!" Think "No, they're sticking it to *YOU*."
Good riddance (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, Steve, "You're holding it wrong" just doesn't cut it.
If your user's can't actually hold your phone, it's your problem, not theirs.
They may have a case (Score:2, Insightful)
If Apple is stupid to only do testing:
A. In their Cupertino facility, which has it's own AT&T tower
B. In the field, but covered with their 30$ bumpers
Then this case may have some potential even though it will drag on for years and only the lawyers will gain millions of dollars, with the end result being a small settlement not beneficial to the consumer. Just like all IT lawsuits.
Just Return It (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slap a bumper on it, call it done. (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, I do think class action firms are among the only ones capable of putting a bit of fear in evil corporations (Think Merck/vioxx).
Re:Just Return It (Score:5, Insightful)
A higher-than-normal return rate, with the antenna issue being the stated reason, should achieve similar results. In theory.
Re:Just Return It (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not exactly about the phone. Yes, you CAN return the phone, but it's too late at that point - now you're in a 2-year AT&T contract, that you then have to pay $375 to get out of. All thanks to your phone, sold to you by Apple, not working as advertised.
So then you have a choice, do you eat the $199 or $299, and the cost to get a different phone, to hold up your contractual obligation? Or do you start lighting a fire under Apple's ass to fix the phone so you can get the phone and service you paid for? AT&T blames Apple, Apple blames the consumer, so the consumer is going to have to sue to get things righted.
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:4, Insightful)
In a better world, that should be "Apple will not be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt in to the class action."
"Difficult or impossible" is a lie (Score:3, Insightful)
I can see where perhaps there would be a case over this design flaw, but to claim it's "difficult or impossible" to maintain a call is simply a lie. In everyday use, not being careful how I hold the phone at all, I have had no issues with calls with the new phone.
If you make the claims too absurd the case will not have a good chance of success.
Re:Class Action Lawsuit (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Obligatory Apple Product Cycle post (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Class Action Lawsuit (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance (Score:2, Insightful)
You know I see this type of response here all the time and you know what? It's not a legit response. Just because there was no lawsuit for a completely different product does not mean this one is baseless or unfair. Anytime an apple product is shat upon someone has to come out of the woodwork and point out another inferior product, like that makes it all okay. Well, no, it doesn't.
The only way... (Score:2, Insightful)
My guess on the outcome? Bumpers for everyone! I'm sure spending a dollar per phone (which is about what I'm guessing bumpers for the iPhone 4 cost to manufacture) is a bargain compared to having to repair or replace a few million phones.
Bumper solves and creates a problem (Score:3, Insightful)
What I didn't realise until I read a review recently is that although the Bumper solves the antenna issue, it means that you cannot plug in your standard iPod/iPhone connectors!
The "solution" is that you have to take the phone partially out of the case so you can plug the connector in - in other words, every single time you plug it in to charge, sync or hook up to your car stereo!
I'm rather surprised that a company that prides itself on the quality of its products manage to muck up what should be a simple plastic case.
Re:"Difficult or impossible" is a lie (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes but that is a quote from a complaint and it needs to be a damning as it can be as long as there is a kernel of truth to it.
I'm in an area where all the carriers have spotty signals. I am left handed. I have an iphone 4. If I purposely bridge the gap in question it degrades the reception enough to prevent me from making calls when I'm in an area with a weak signal. So indeed there are situations where the issue makes it 'difficult or impossible'.
Luckily for me I don't naturally hold the phone that way, but it would indeed be annoying if I did. I've been using a cell phone for 15 years and would not be interested in adapting to a new phone's peculiarities.
Re:Good riddance (Score:5, Insightful)
I expect the signal to vary when I touch the phone - that's a given. I remember when doing amateur radio as a child there was a calculated (and sometimes very noticeable) gain loss when a handheld radio came in close proximity with the human body - and most of these radios had really really efficient antennas compared to most cell phones.
I think with the iPhone 4 - the issue is if you have particularly sweaty hands (which I do) they can short the two antennas and increase the swr so much it effectively knocks the signal out *completely*. When putting the piece of tape over the gap solves the issue I think its more of a design flaw than common problem. I had a rubber antenna for some handheld radio that had a short in it once - you couldn't hear hardly anything unless the transmitter was right on top of you.
In the link you have there - the Nexus 1 owner/author admits that the signal doesn't go completely away - it still lets you make a phone call.
My Rev 2 Nexus 1 (the one made for AT&T/Telus) this issue occurs, but in most cases its not a big deal (maybe 10-20 db - if that). I had the same issue on my Nokia N97 too.
Re:Good riddance (Score:5, Insightful)
You merely assume that the problems are similar. Upon what are you basing the assumption?
Could you 'short' the antenna in the Nexus One merely by holding a phone in the 'wrong' way? No.
Did the Nexus One signal drop by 24 dBm when you held it in your hand? No. [arstechnica.com]
Is the reception quantifyably worse than either the Nexus One or the previous generation iPhone? Yes.
A 10dBm drop compared to the iPhone 3GS is unacceptable when the primary function of the device is to serve as a wireless phone.
The lawyers suing Apple are not going to let it confuse the issue between absorptive signal loss due to coupling with a nearby hand, which indeed most phones are suspectible to, and antenna detuning due to galvanic conduction over an uncoated external antenna, which is a design decision worthy of a Gumby. [wikipedia.org]
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree. As an Apple shareholder, I enjoy reading about the pending or settled lawsuits in the proxy materials Apple sends out every year. I don't know if there are any stats freely available, but I bet that most large companies have one or more active lawsuits against them. And I would be that the more popular the company (media attention, stock price), the more likely they are to have the lawsuits.
Re:ATT's return policy (Score:4, Insightful)
The lawsuit would surely take much longer than 30 days. Why would you even contemplate the continued use a product that doesn't work as advertised? All to have the latest, greatest yet defective product from Apple?
Re:Good riddance (Score:3, Insightful)
A 10dBm drop compared to the iPhone 3GS is unacceptable when the primary function of the device is to serve as a wireless phone.
Is it? I thought the primary purpose was to serve as a status symbol, the secondary purpose was to buy overpriced apps, the tertiary purpose was to browse the web. Being a wireless phone is way down the list.
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're going to turn someone's phrasing back on them, try reading carefully enough to know what they said; or are you too stupid to know the difference between "indignant" and "ignorant"?
In any event, feel free to point out a class action where the only notice was buried in the NY Times classifieds. Or were you just full of crap? That the law doesn't prescribe mail as the only means of notice, does not change the fact that classes are notified by mail.
Re:Just Return It (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Not surprisingly (Score:1, Insightful)
But will it have an effect?
Re:wrong, no contract if returned (Score:3, Insightful)
More so, if you used an upgrade option to get the phone for $200 instead of 600, that is ALSO returned to you as if you had not used it. This is backed by federal law. You can not get screwed signing up for a contract you didn't like, or buying a device you don;t want. In some cases, there will be a restocking fee for returning a fully functional device, but AT&T and Apple have confirmed if you demonstrate the issue, there will be no restocking fee.
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:3, Insightful)
My point was that your ability for further litigation should not be determined by you opting out of a class action suit. Instead it should be determined by you opting in.
In other words, no assumption should be made that you desire to feed the machine by automatically opting in and therefore losing further rights to litigate.
I was not attempting to make an opinion one way or the other about class action lawsuits in general or this specific one.
Re:Just Return It (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good riddance (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it is a technical failing.
the Antenna design is BAD. The person responsible should be ashamed of themselves. This may not be the Antennae engineer. He may have been forced to do that design based on some management decision.
Have you ever designed antennas?
"This is validated by scientific signal measurement. "
Care to link to link to said study. Be careful, if it isn't a good scientific study, I will rip you a new one.
Of course you have a fallacy that being better is all that matters. I can build and advertise a car that gets 100 MPG, but if it drops to 80MPG when driven by left handed people, I will be sued. It dosn't matter then t gets better gas MPG then my previous vehicle.
Re:Good riddance (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, since the devices don;t all exhibit this behavior, and many of them can't even be made to ground out, I;d call it a failing of manufactruing the coating proerly as it is applied to the metal rim (which shouldbe non-conductive to begin with).
I happen to have a significant engineering backing, heavy in both electronics, magnetics, and RF. I'm not an antenna engineer, but I can do the calculus and understand the physics involved very well.
The release was from anandtech, and was a well done fairly scientific, repeated multiple times on multiple devices, and using fairly professional equipment and both lab and field testing methods. It's a preliminary study, but a very competent start to a larger scale analysis. They're a well trusted source.
19db is bad, top of the curve bad, but the average is over 12 and the previous generation iPhone, which no one noticed, dropped 13. More so, better IS better, since usability and reliability actually means something compared to number on paper.
As for the car, every car performs better or worse depending on how you drive it. Shit, just making more right turns and fewer left turns can have as much as a 10% impact on your driving. That's not a valid analogy anyway. Better is better if there's no drawback vs the current option. A new system might have it;s own limitations and quirks, but so long as those limits are at their worst still above the options otherwise available, and the limitations and quirks do not introduce new negatives, then that is the very technical definition of better (not perfect, which all you anti-apple people think you deserve nothing less than).
I'm not pro or ant any vendor. i take no allegiances. I'll drop one product to buy another anytime there's a good reason to, and I'll always recommend the best product for a person's needs regardless of any perceived personal preference. I'm a systems analyst and solutions engineer, I have to be open to options. To some I recommend apple, to others android, and to others to stay the fuck away from smartphone entirely. I recommend widows to some, mac to others, linux/unix. IBM to some, Apple to others, though I've not found a reason to recommend dell to anyone in many many years. My interest here is stopping FUD, propogandsa, and general bullshit and hate flowing here. Wether the data anandtech has meets your requirements of scientific enough or not, fact is, no one else has ANY data, and until they have contrary data, it;s conjecture, and is to be dismissed or studied, but not commented on, and certainly not sued over, until there IS such data.
Re:Before everyone cheers (or jeers) (Score:2, Insightful)
You do know there's an easy way not to be stripped of your right to file an individual lawsuit, right?
Assuming I am made aware of the class action suit, that is true.
Apple will only be shielded from further suits in which the plaintif failed to opt out of the class action.
I should never be considered an interested party in a class action suit unless I have expressed an interest. Failing to respond to a notice I probably never got is not expressing an interest.
Re:Just Return It (Score:1, Insightful)
"The drop IS more pronounced, but the signal is STILL better. I call that irrelevant."
Run a bandwidth test under that degraded signal.
Watch the 3GS win versus the 4. I've been testing it all week.
I don't call it irrelevant. I call it BULLSHIT ENGINEERING.
Anecdote is not evidence. Please write up your testing setup, scenario, results and post. It would be most helpful.
Re:Just Return It (Score:1, Insightful)
you have a month to return a cell phone w/o penalty (or at least you do here in california, which is where the lawsuit originates from). the iphone 4 has been out for 1 week. tell me again how those poor folks are stuck in a 2-year AT&T contract again....