Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
The Internet Apple

Apple's HTML5 and Standards Gallery Not Standard 527

Posted by Soulskill
from the par-for-the-course dept.
snitch writes "Apple has created an HTML5 Showcase that presents its vision for the next generation of the WWW. The fact that this page is only accessible using the Safari browser, while Apple advocates about web standards, has caused many to criticize the company's lack of broader platform support. The showcase demonstrates several HTML5 capabilities and features that have to do with video, typography, transitions, audio, etc. Further, on the front page the company states that 'Standards aren't add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.' The latter statement falls short by the fact that the featured examples only work with the Safari browser, and in the case of the CSS 3D transforms demonstration, require Mac OS X Snow Leopard (Safari PC or plain Leopard won't do)."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Apple's HTML5 and Standards Gallery Not Standard

Comments Filter:
  • Chrome (Score:5, Informative)

    by bbqsrc (1441981) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @09:44AM (#32475290) Homepage
    Worked for me in Chrome.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by f3rret (1776822)

      No it didn't. I use chrome and I got a 'download safari' dialog box when I tried to view any of the showcases.

      • Re:Chrome (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Runaway1956 (1322357) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @11:13AM (#32475964) Homepage Journal

        chromium-browser --user-agent="Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10_5_8; en-us) AppleWebKit/531.22.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Safari/531.22.7"

        You have to change the user agent string, for any of it to work. There is no GUI method for doing so with Chromium. Modify as needed if you're on a Microsoft operating system.

    • I don't know about Chrome, but it definitely works on Android (HTC Desire), front-page as well as the individual demos. So whatever bug Apple may have had in their browser detection code has apparently been fixed by now - at least partly.
    • Re:Chrome (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Low Ranked Craig (1327799) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @10:54AM (#32475806)

      I ran the entire demo in Chrome and I had issues with the video, which is to be expected at this point, because they still can't pick a standard, and the CSS3 3-D transforms which I don't understand because Chrome supports 3-D transforms.

      open /Applications/Google\ Chrome.app --args -user-agent="Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_3; en-us) AppleWebKit/531.22.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Safari/531.22.7"

      In this case I think Apple is right to limit the demo to Safari, because at this point not even Chrome works for all the demos. I don't like everything that Apple does, but in this case what are they supposed to do? Due to no standard being set on video, no other browser will properly render the demos. I do question what the deal with the CSS is.

      Remember, this page is a showcase of Apple's products based on the not completely baked HTML 5 standard - it is not a general HTML 5 showcase:

      The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript.

      I think the submitter is twisting the purpose of the html5 page on apple.com, and there is a whole lot of piling on Apple in this discussion without any real basis. Again, right there on the page it says this that it shows how Apple's latest products support HTML 5. It doesn't say that apple.com supports the latest version of Firefox or IE.

      • Re:Chrome (Score:5, Insightful)

        by EriDay (679359) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @02:42PM (#32477388)

        In this case I think Apple is right to limit the demo to Safari, because at this point not even Chrome works for all the demos. I don't like everything that Apple does, but in this case what are they supposed to do? Due to no standard being set on video, no other browser will properly render the demos. I do question what the deal with the CSS is. Remember, this page is a showcase of Apple's products based on the not completely baked HTML 5 standard - it is not a general HTML 5 showcase:

        If we are to accept what you say then the following can't be true:

        Standards aren't add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.

        Standards aren't standards if they're not standard.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          Standards aren't standards if they're not standard.

          Not sure what your point is. Apple's point at face value is that you can start using their products to start browsing HTML5/CSS3 sites today. If one company implements the agreed to standard and other companies don't that doesn't make the standard a non-standard...

          I opened the page in Chrome and it didn't work 100%. Now, if you want to analyze Apple's source and point out where their site breaks standards, that would be something more interesting

          You might have missed this bit as well:

          Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards

          • Re:Chrome (Score:4, Interesting)

            by toddestan (632714) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @08:28PM (#32479694)

            The site can't break standards because there isn't a standard to break yet for HTML5/CSS3. All it really is just Apple showing what they think the standard should look like. However, it doesn't seem to stop Apple from claiming that their version is the "standard".

  • by allo (1728082) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @09:45AM (#32475296)
    Apple is Microsoft 2.0
    • by Sponge Bath (413667) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @09:59AM (#32475404)

      Apple is Microsoft 2.0

      When they hit Microsoft 3.1, they will have finally achieved a usable level of evilness.

    • by DaMattster (977781) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @10:09AM (#32475486)
      I am starting to agree. Microsoft is looking less evil now. In fact, they provided some generous assistance last summer to Samba 4 developement. They helped the Samba 4 developers figure out why DRS (Directory Replication Services) was not working.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by drinkypoo (153816)

        You say "less evil". I say "more scared". If Microsoft is working on interoperability, you know they're frightened of becoming irrelevant. Of course, helping Samba will severely cut into their share of the server market, because Samba4's unreadiness is still selling Windows licenses, but perhaps they're expecting to fail there anyway.

      • by BatGnat (1568391) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @03:00PM (#32477516)
        It is only fair! Andrew Tridgell, helped them understand their own SMB protocol.
  • by Superken7 (893292) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @09:50AM (#32475344) Journal

    Yeah, HTML5 is the future and as soon as we get rid of flash the better, but if you are going to try and show how its done, then do it right or don't do it at all, Apple.

    Have a look at this: http://apirocks.com/html5/html5.html#slide1 [apirocks.com]

    This is a very nice demo that doesn't tell you to get XYZ browser. Sure, some parts might not work at all if you are not running on the latest chrome or webkit browser, but most demos work and I find it to be a nicer way of doing things (IMHO).

    (This was part of a presentation done by some googlers about HTML5 a few months ago)

  • A hard choice (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Shin-LaC (1333529) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @09:51AM (#32475354)
    HTML5 is still a work in progress. They could have made a demo that only uses those features which are already widely supported, but it wouldn't have been as impressive. Or they could have made a demo that uses the latest bleeding-edge proposals for HTML5, and let it fail on most people's browsers - perhaps even worse.
    Given that it's meant to be a showcase of things to come, it makes sense to require you to use the one browser that currently works with it. Even Mozilla sometimes releases demos that require the latest Firefox beta to test. Using browser sniffing to enforce it is certainly bad form, but they probably thought that otherwise people would just click through, see a broken demo, and not even realize they aren't seeing what they're meant to see. Hopefully they'll relax the restriction once (if) more browsers implement support for these proposed new features.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      On Snow Leopard, the demos work on Chrome 5.0.375.55 (latest official version) - I didn't even get a pop-up. The demos don't run as well as on Safari but most of them do work.

    • HTML5 is still a work in progress. They could have made a demo that only uses those features which are already widely supported, but it wouldn't have been as impressive. Or they could have made a demo that uses the latest bleeding-edge proposals for HTML5, and let it fail on most people's browsers - perhaps even worse. Given that it's meant to be a showcase of things to come, it makes sense to require you to use the one browser that currently works with it. Even Mozilla sometimes releases demos that require the latest Firefox beta to test. Using browser sniffing to enforce it is certainly bad form, but they probably thought that otherwise people would just click through, see a broken demo, and not even realize they aren't seeing what they're meant to see. Hopefully they'll relax the restriction once (if) more browsers implement support for these proposed new features.

      This person was not fairly modded. HTML5 is still a work in progress. However, if HTML5 is to be standard, it must be patent-unencumbered and free/open-source.

    • by Draek (916851)

      They could have made a demo that only uses those features which are already widely supported, but it wouldn't have been as impressive. Or they could have made a demo that uses the latest bleeding-edge proposals for HTML5, and let it fail on most people's browsers - perhaps even worse.

      The problem of using the "latest bleeding-edge proposals" is that there's no certainity that they'll be approved, so showcasing them to developers in hopes of getting them to use them is extremely irresponsible if not downright 'evil', as if the devs use them and the proposal falls through your browser would be the only one their websites works in without rewriting potentially substantial parts of it.

      • by Shin-LaC (1333529)

        The problem of using the "latest bleeding-edge proposals" is that there's no certainity that they'll be approved, so showcasing them to developers in hopes of getting them to use them is extremely irresponsible if not downright 'evil', as if the devs use them and the proposal falls through your browser would be the only one their websites works in without rewriting potentially substantial parts of it.

        That's a good point. Someone would have to look through the various features to see what their status is (draft, approved...). At any rate, it's true that this is a showcase of "what we would like HTML5 to be", rather than "what it is".
        On the other hand, it's quite unlikely that people are going to start building websites that rely on those features, given Safari's small market share. What might happen is that web designers get interested and ask other browser makers to hurry up and add support for Apple's

    • by tsa (15680) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @10:31AM (#32475636) Homepage

      They should have made a demo in Flash so everyone could see it.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Skal Tura (595728)

      that's not the point. The point is they advertise this as standards demo, not Safari demo. Ie. saying Safari is the only standards compliant browser, just like Microsoft telling IE is standards compliant.

      • Re:A hard choice (Score:5, Informative)

        by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF (813746) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @11:26AM (#32476036)

        that's not the point. The point is they advertise this as standards demo, not Safari demo.

        No they clearly advertise this as a demo of Safari, and it's support for HTML5. Here's the text:

        HTML5 Showcase The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.

        They specifically call out this as a demo of what they've implemented in Safari so far.

        Ie[sic]. saying Safari is the only standards compliant browser, just like Microsoft telling IE is standards compliant.

        No they actually state that "Not all browsers offer this support" which very, very strongly implies that some other browsers do offer this support. They go on to briefly mention how other modern browsers are adding support for HTML5 features so everyone will be able to use these new standards.

    • Safari for Linux? Not likely. Apple's afraid to do that, or maybe just not competent enough to do it (which I doubt). Or maybe they are just too arrogant and self-centered.

      Why does Apple want to make you download and install Safari?

      Since they are already checking your browser to see the demo, why not have an alternative video file for each demo if your current browser doesn't support the individual demo? Why not try to show what their browser can do instead of making you install it in order to see what

    • by Aphrika (756248)
      I'd agree that HTML5 is a work in progress, but I'd like to point out that as that's the case, sticking a honky great link to it on your company homepage is misplaced and stupid.

      What Apple should've done is written something like Microsoft's IE9 HTML5 demos [microsoft.com] that actually work in multiple browsers, and maybe just linked to it from their developer portal. I suspect they've tried to be too clever and shot themselves in the foot in this little 'standards' skirmish...
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        What Apple should've done is written something like Microsoft's IE9 HTML5 demos [microsoft.com] that actually work in multiple browsers, and maybe just linked to it from their developer portal.

        Umm, Apple does link to all of these without the user agent filtering from their developer site. They also just posted these so Safari users could come take a look.

        I suspect they've tried to be too clever and shot themselves in the foot in this little 'standards' skirmish...

        Actually they tried to be open and cutting edge, but people with a chip on their shoulder insist on bashing them here, although I'm not sure why. The number of slanted summaries and absurdly negative interpretations make me wonder if it is an astroturf campaign.

    • Re:A hard choice (Score:5, Insightful)

      by e4g4 (533831) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @12:04PM (#32476302)

      HTML5 is still a work in progress. They could have made a demo that only uses those features which are already widely supported, but it wouldn't have been as impressive.

      Spot on. This is a Safari demo - they appear to be desperately trying to demonstrate why they aren't allowing Flash on their iDevices. At the very bottom of the page, there are two image/link thingys, one that says "iPad Ready" and another that says "Thoughts on Flash". Apple's goal here was to provide the shiniest, flashiest (but not Flashiest) html 5 demonstration they possible could, and only show it to the browser that will render it all perfectly. They're using published standards, that other browsers can (and probably will, eventually) support, and they're publishing the source code for all of the demos.

      I really don't understand what all the vitriol is about on this thread. When your browser of choice can do the things with HTML 5 that Safari can in these demos, you'll be thrilled. What the hell is wrong with Apple pushing open standards? Okay - I get that the h.264 standard, while in some senses open, has some issues, but still - isn't this a good thing? Isn't it good for everyone that Apple is using some of that mountain of money they're sitting on to push an open standard, and at the very least reduce the necessity of the beast that is Flash?

  • by Oceanplexian (807998) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @09:51AM (#32475356) Homepage
    Apple tends to take standards that are in their infancy, and make them mainstream.

    I don't see anything wrong with this, other than it making other browsers like FF3 look like they haven't been innovating.
  • Some of this (about a third) worked for me in Firefox with the user agent switcher add on. The default user agent switcher doesn't include safari but you can import them from the following URL. http://techpatterns.com/forums/about304.html [techpatterns.com]
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Yeah but not fully, when viewing a video example under WebKit nightly I got a perspective switch that was not event present in Safari 4.

      I really recommend downloading Safari 4 or even WebKit nightly (sorry Chrome users, no transform3D for you) and trying those demos, it is pretty neat, something to get really exited about.

      Oh, and as for the QuickTime thing on windows machines, Safari uses it to handle html5 media playback, same as iTunes uses it for its media.

  • User agent switcher turns some things on in Firefox.

    http://chrispederick.com/work/user-agent-switcher/ [chrispederick.com]

    with following settings:

    Safari
    Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_3; ja-jp)
    Mozilla
    Safari
    4.0.5 Safari/531.22.7
    MacIntel
    [empty]
    [empty]

    A lot is broken though.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    1) Select the Typography demo
    2) Select "Pincoya Black fonts"
    3) Enter a couple of lines of lower case "o" (they are underlined)
    4) Rotate slowly so you see the step by step motion

    What you'll see: spacing between each "o" varies at each rotation step, and you can see "steps" in the underlining. That wouldn't happen with flash.

    Basically while the fonts are anti-aliased, the position of each letter is computed as an integer. In flash, every coordinate is computed in floating point.

    Welcome back to pixel world.

  • Its Apple (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Once again Slashdot jumps to conclusions. The showcase is to promote Safari not web standards. The way the write up reads is that these are the web standards, and these are what they can do. Its blatant in the second paragraph, "The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript." that they are promoting Safari and not web standards. This our toy and this is why it works bette

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jedidiah (1196)

      Not quite.

      This was supposed to be an HTML5 demo served up with a heaping helping of FUD.

      "The demos below show how the latest version of Apple's Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support."

      Their nonsense with browser sniffing is clearly a crass attempt to perpetrate a fraud on the unsuspecting user. They want to give the false impression that no one else supports this stuff. They want to create th

  • Would it help if they added the word "beta" to the title, like all those other sites on the web that don't want people complaining that not everything works yet the way it is supposed to?

  • by bl8n8r (649187) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @10:32AM (#32475642)

    Not the popular opinion, but think about it. M$ started out the same way.
    - Get people hooked on the new-exciting-and-different (windows 3.1)
    - you were a Luddite if you weren't adopting it
    - People that new almost *nothing* about computers could "use" a computer

    After the customer base was established, Microsoft Works came in and locked everyone into a proprietary format (they didn't know better). This was followed by Excel, Word and Access, and then Exchange.

    Apple is taking the same road and once again people who don't know they don't know, don't know.

    • by SuperKendall (25149) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @12:35PM (#32476530)

      After the customer base was established, Microsoft Works came in and locked everyone into a proprietary format

      And how is Apple doing this? The webkit tags they are using, work in pretty much any up-to-date webkit browsers - which included Android or just about any other popular mobile device.

      Apple is explicitly not locking you in, instead of going down that road they are strongly promoting a standard (HTML-5) and a powerful rendering engine (Webkit) that anyone can use.

      Where's the locki-n?

  • http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/Default.html [microsoft.com]

    No user agent checking, and they work (or don't work in the case of older IE versions) in different browsers...

    The way I see it, it's just Apple using their current 'standards' press coverage to increase browser share among the general populace. Microsoft 2.0 indeed.
  • by itsdapead (734413) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @10:48AM (#32475766)

    Shock! horror! Apple are using their own website to push Safari and claim that their own browsers are ahead of the game on standards support? The bastards!!!

    In large friendly letters on the page in question (my emphasis):

    The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.

    Note how that doesn't say "Here's a handy resource to allow you to objectively compare different browsers' HTML 5 implementations"? That is because you are looking at an advert [wikipedia.org] for Safari! As is traditional in these "adverts" it is trying to get you to download and try Safari, not find out how close the competition comes. In other news, if you go to a Mercedes dealership they're not going to offer you test drives in a BMW...

    Wake me up if anybody smart enough to spoof their browser ID finds out whether Apple's demos use undocumented or non-standard features (rather than ones which don't work in Firefox, yet).

  • by aristotle-dude (626586) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @11:20AM (#32476004)
    This is a technology showcase by "Apple" for developers targeting the iPhone OS which uses "safari". They added in the user agent sniffing code so that average Apple users stumbling upon the story would not be able to try the demos with an old build of Chrome which did not support everything or other browsers which supported none of it (IE, older builds of Firefox).

    This was the executive summary for general public consumption.

    If you wanted to look at the demos on other browsers, all you had to do was go to the http;//developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ link. Again, not everything will work on non-safari browers but most of them will work on the latest chrome.

    This is all about presenting the technology to the average user in the best light when other browsers are still playing catchup.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Trelane (16124)

      If you wanted to look at the demos on other browsers, all you had to do was go to the http;//developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ link. Again, not everything will work on non-safari browers but most of them will work on the latest chrome.

      Contrast your claim with the dialog which I just got from one of the demos, http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/video-effects.php [apple.com] (Firefox 3.6.3) when I click on the "View Demo" button:

      You'll need to download Safari to view this demo.

      This demo was designed with the latest

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by hkmwbz (531650)
      Except the URL is apple.com/html5, and it's titled "HTML5 Showcase" even though it doesn't really use a lot of HTML5, and the purpose of this marketing crap is to give the appearance that Apple is ahead of everyone else, even though, again, it isn't even showing off HTML5.
  • IE5 (Score:3, Funny)

    by flyingfsck (986395) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @12:57PM (#32476682)
    So Microsoft Internet 5 cannot do HTML 5? Damn, who woulda thunk it...
  • by maccodemonkey (1438585) on Sunday June 06, 2010 @02:04PM (#32477186)

    It was odd seeing a Mozilla dev talking about them fully supporting HTML5. They may support almost as many features, but they all run like ass. Seriously, most HTML5 demos I see on Firefox aren't unusable because some feature isn't implement, but that they are just far too slow.

    Safari's and Chrome's JavaScript engines are running circles around Firefox right now. I don't know why anyone interesting in HTML5 would even bother with Firefox. WebKit is eating their lunch.

<<<<< EVACUATION ROUTE <<<<<

Working...