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Apple Seeks To Ban Nokia Imports To US 374

Posted by timothy
from the let's-take-this-outside-the-country dept.
Hugh Pickens writes "Cnet reports that the ongoing patent battle between Apple and Nokia has escalated, with Apple moving to block imports of Nokia cell phones to the US by filing a complaint with the International Trade Commission, an independent federal agency that examines issues including unfair trade practices involving patent, trademark, and copyright infringement. In December, Nokia filed its own complaint with the USITC alleging that Apple infringes seven Nokia patents 'in virtually all of its mobile phones, portable music players, and computers' and sought to ban imports of Apple's iPhone, iPod, and MacBook products. Responding to Apple's latest move, Nokia spokesman Mark Durrant told Bloomberg that 'Nokia will study the complaint when it is received and continue to defend itself vigorously. However this does not alter the fact that Apple has failed to agree appropriate terms for using Nokia technology and has been seeking a free ride on Nokia's innovation since it shipped the first iPhone in 2007.' An ITC investigation is a lengthy process, but it's possible that Apple and Nokia might reach some sort of settlement as suits continue to escalate between the two companies."
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Apple Seeks To Ban Nokia Imports To US

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  • by Amorymeltzer (1213818) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @02:16AM (#30796350)

    Is it really cheaper to sue for peace? I mean, can't the legal teams for both companies see this down the road and come to some sort of mutual agreement in advance? It'd sure save a lot of time and money, not to mentioning freeing the courts a bit. Why is it acceptable policy to sue instead of discussing?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @02:17AM (#30796354)

    Lawyers need to get paid, and this is the process by which they are paid.

  • by sycodon (149926) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @02:20AM (#30796364)

    They need to just fucking cross license the patents like they always end up doing. Stop feeding the animals (Lawyers).

  • Worthless patents (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Darkness404 (1287218) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @02:24AM (#30796378)
    When will the US patent system be reformed? The patents that the article references are

    The 10 patents it accuses Apple of violating are related to making phones able to run on GSM, 3G, and Wi-Fi networks

    which sounds like a trivial thing to patent to begin with. How again are patents really contributing to the general good?

  • by ThrowAwaySociety (1351793) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @02:43AM (#30796440)

    Nokia is at the forefront of cellular hardware R&D, they are hardly the patent trolls Apple fanboys are making them out to be.

    Nobody is accusing Nokia of being a patent troll. Everybody knows that Nokia is an actual company that does actually sell products.

    Nokia's alleged abuse of patent law comes from them trying to charge Apple more than the going rate that it charges to Motorola or Samsung or RIM for the same tech. That's just anti-competitive, plain and simple.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @02:56AM (#30796478)

    Nokia wants the patents for multi touch cross licensed. These patents are even more trivial than GSM, 3G and Wi-Fi. Personally I am with Nokia on this one. I respect the ability to profit from being first with multi touch. However I cannot believe it is possible for Apple to sit on these patents without licensing them to anyone.
    I am with Nokia on this one and I hope it forces Apple to cross license some of its more obvious patents.

  • by melikamp (631205) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @03:05AM (#30796510) Homepage Journal

    The summary is a good example of a situation when patents really shine at what they are: a handbrake on innovation. Consumer has nothing to gain if a capable competitor is excluded from the marketplace like that. Leading companies will invest in RnD, patents or not, mostly just to keep up with the state of the art, but also because when (by chance), their engineers invent something truly novel and useful, they will have weeks, months, or may be even years before competitors reverse-engineer their product and learn how to build it cheaper. It is clearly not worth for the public to pay the patent enforcement and monopoly taxes unless the patent law strongly boosts the rate of innovation (and even then, is there really a point?).

    And we have no evidence whatsoever that the patent system of any kind increases the rate of innovation (the technological leap of the last 400 years is probably mostly due to the fossil fuels, and we are in for another boost, due to the Internet, the holy Grail of communication). We but we have clear examples of monopolistic behaviors, where the cost to consumer can be directly calculated, like in every case when a cheaper competing product is barred from the market.

    The reasonable thing to do would be to start decreasing the patent term, while measuring how it affects the rate of innovation. I would not be surprised to see that it doesn't.

  • by NimbleSquirrel (587564) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @03:11AM (#30796528)
    The reality is that, globally, Nokia is the larger company with a larger patent portfolio and has been in business far longer than Apple. Apple may have some key patents, but Nokia certainly have more in relation to mobile phone technology. The first patents at issue were ones necessary for GSM operation: without them, no GSM phone. It seems Apple, for whatever reason (possibly to maintain the secrecy of the iPhone development), decided not to sort out licensing before releasing the iPhone. This could be bad for Apple, if Nokia can prove in court that Apple deliberatly infringed on the patents to get the iPhone to market. Sure, Apple is arguing that license terms were not FRAND (as required by the GSM Association), but disagreement with licensing terms is not an exemption to put a product on the market.

    Going to the USITC is simply the next step in this legal tit-for-tat. The seven patents at issue in Nokia's filing to the USITC (involving camera, antenna and power management technology) were different to the original ten patents it sued for in October (involving GSM and wireless technology). Apple countersued in December for thirteen patents. I have yet to see if Apple's USITC filing involes the same thirteen patents. If it does, Apple's USITC filing could be thrown out to avoid a situation of double jeopardy. If it doesn't it would be interesting to see what patents are in Apple's USITC filing.

    It seems that Apple is trying to force a settlement out of Nokia, but Apple have for more to lose in this situation. Sure, there is a possibility of a ban on Nokia phones in the US, but most of Nokia's market lies outside the US. It is hard to tell what will happen next, but if a settlement is going to happen it won't be soon. I wouldn't be surprised if Nokia's next step is to take the fight international, with a filing in the EU. I can't help feeling that Apple may come out of this battle worse off.
  • by sopssa (1498795) * <sopssa@email.com> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @03:26AM (#30796578) Journal

    They need to just fucking cross license the patents like they always end up doing. Stop feeding the animals (Lawyers).

    That is exactly what Nokia has been trying to do, but Apple doesn't agree to the terms (which are same for every other manufacturer too). And since Apple is infringing patents and doesn't agree to the standard cross licensing, they can't do other than sue.

  • by beelsebob (529313) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @03:28AM (#30796582)

    Nope, it's not anti-competitive. What it is though, is in violation of RAND terms, which nokia signed up to when they let their patents become part of the GSM standard.

  • by melikamp (631205) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @03:38AM (#30796614) Homepage Journal

    Which brings up a question of how to measure innovation objectively. Should one count inventions per year (what is an "invention")? Products per year? And then there are other factors, some of which can easily make the impact of patents insignificant. A war, an economic crisis, an ecological disaster, or a bad educational system may slow down the research or halt it altogether. An easy access to natural resources, the main one being energy, or a political system which protects free speech will probably greatly increase the rate of innovation. If one cannot adequately measure how the rate of innovation changes with respect to the patent term, then there can be no rational argument for having a patent system at all, since the costs are real and can be calculated directly.

  • by sopssa (1498795) * <sopssa@email.com> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @03:41AM (#30796624) Journal

    The issue is about a lot more than just about GSM standards. Among others, theres patents about usability and interfaces, not just about GSM.

  • by R3d M3rcury (871886) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @04:21AM (#30796726) Journal

    If nokia is an 800lb gorilla, Apple is King Kong – Nokia's market cap is $50bn, apple's is $190bn.

    True. But when it comes to phones, Nokia is the 800lb gorilla and Apple is Zippy the Chimp. [zippythetvchimp.com]

    Why do I say this?

    Nokia can conceivably stop Apple from selling a GSM phone, if they are successful. Apple will have to change the iPhone to run on CDMA networks, such as Verizon's here in the US. But the world-wide market for GSM phones is much larger than the market for CDMA phones. This will limit how well iPhones will sell outside of the US and hurt Apple's revenue dramatically.

    In short, Nokia can do a fair amount of damage to iPhone sales.

    In return, what can Apple do to Nokia? Stop them from selling phones? I doubt it. Nokia sells plenty of different kinds of phones. They may be able to lop off the top-end phones, but that's about it. I also assume Nokia makes plenty of money off of their patents, so Nokia wouldn't be hurt too badly if Apple stopped them from selling the N97. So if Apple prevails, Nokia may have to make some minor changes to their products, but that's about it.

    That's why Nokia is the 800LB Gorilla.

    That said, much like Apple licensing the Mac UI to Microsoft, Nokia's "mistake" was agreeing to RAND terms.

  • Standing ground (Score:2, Insightful)

    by icsx (1107185) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @04:22AM (#30796730)
    Does Apple really think they can do a mobile phone to the market in few years without violating any of Nokia's iventions done in the past 20 years that are patented? They think they do but reality is different. This is just Apple's response to get better negotiation grounds and with luck, they get a Judge who has Apple laptop to the case. Only then Apple has chances to win 1 round but only lose at the end at the higher court level.
  • by Uberbah (647458) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @04:42AM (#30796796)

    That's why Nokia is the 800LB Gorilla.

    Not when your "Zibby the Chimp" has enough cash on hand to buy a controlling interest Nokia and fire the gorilla.

  • by Uberbah (647458) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @04:45AM (#30796808)

    Other than the part where Nokia wanted more money and more patents from Apple than from other manufacturers, of course. Somebody might be acting childish, but it sure isn't Apple.

  • by dangitman (862676) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @04:47AM (#30796818)

    And since Apple is infringing patents and doesn't agree to the standard cross licensing,

    What's your evidence of this? Nokia alleges that its patents are being infringed, but that doesn't mean it's true. Same in reverse. Does the fact that Apple has alleged that Nokia is infringing its patents mean it is true?

  • by Kumiorava (95318) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:13AM (#30796884)

    Only if they are contractually obligated to pay for GSM licensing fees. Most likely not, they let the customers to take care of these issues. In any case that debacle would be between Apple and GSM chipset manufacturer, Nokia isn't concerned about how Apple phone is made.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:19AM (#30796908)

    The 10 patents it accuses Apple of violating are related to making phones able to run on GSM, 3G, and Wi-Fi networks

    which sounds like a trivial thing to patent to begin with. How again are patents really contributing to the general good?

    Trivial? Wow? You realize Nokia originally developed all this technology. You wouldn't have mobile phones without Nokia today.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:21AM (#30796914)
    The only loser in that situation would be the chimp who would be left almost broke with negligible ROI, if they fire the gorilla. The fired gorilla walks away with a wad of cash.

    Of course in the real world, no company is stupid enough to buyout an almost equally sized company over a bunch of patents that could be settled for pocket change.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:55AM (#30797026)

    Because every other company has agreed to Nokia's terms. I doubt that this would have happened if their claims were without merit. In addition, Nokia has no history of patent trolling. They spend massive amounts of money to research and are responsible for many of the most important inventions related to mobile data transfer. In addition, they license all their patents rather reasonably to all the competitors. Companies like Nokia are why the patent system exists.

    So, when Apple suddenly decides not to pay any licensing fees, I trust Nokia a whole lot more.

  • by Serious Callers Only (1022605) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:57AM (#30797038)

    That is exactly what Nokia has been trying to do, but Apple doesn't agree to the terms

    That is exactly what Apple has been trying to do, but Nokia doesn't agree to the terms.

    Disagreement works both ways, unless you believe a priori that one side is right, and we're not going to be able to tell from some news story (on Slashdot, no less!) whether the many patents in question are valid. Good excuse for a flamefest though.

  • by V!NCENT (1105021) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @06:19AM (#30797094)

    Dude, you missing the point....

    You have this very large mobile phone market. A lot of companies are in it. It's a closed knit group where everybody tries to collectively protect their common business. Everybody has patents and everybody is sharing them. Simple.

    Then Apple joins in... They think that they are somehow more important than everybody else. They say "fsck your patents cross-licesensing! We are going to take over this little market of all of you!".

    This is not nice. I don't care who's violating who's patents... Nokia just needs to win this. Period.

  • by obarthelemy (160321) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @06:48AM (#30797192)

    Other companies didn't seem to have issues with Nokia's terms, though ?

  • by Exception Duck (1524809) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @06:56AM (#30797222) Homepage Journal

    This is just a feeling I have, but somehow the evil American corporation is more likely then the evil Finnish corporation.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @07:06AM (#30797256)

    Developing new technology always carries an incentive in and of itself, as it (presumably) cuts costs or offers desirable features, thus spurring revenue. The fact that it'll get ripped off is irrelevant; either you do it, or someone else does it and your product won't get sold as it's always a step behind. As long as you keep release cycles short enough and matched with R&D you recoup your investment through first mover advantage.

    That is only true for technology that is cheap to develop. Technology that cost really much to develop, can be relatively cheap to reverse engineer. This is definitively true for medicins.

    If there were no patents on medicin, the one creating the medicin would have only a few months to recoup costs, before identical copies were sold, much cheaper.

    Granting patents on top of the first mover advantage merely slows development down; if you don't have to innovate to keep ahead of the competition, then why bother? Much more comfortable to sit back and collect royalties.

    The problem with that, is that in many fields, development is so quick that there is just a short period of time to collect royalties. Check the timespan between VHS and DVD, and the timespan between DVD and blueray.

    The incentive a company not holding the patent for the current technology has, is to be the one collecting royalties and not the one paying royalties on the next technology.

    The incentive on the company holding the current patent is not as big, but they to want to collect the royalties on the next technology.

    That's why it doesn't make sense to have patents.

    In which you are wrong. There is a good reason for having a patent system. That said, there are many problems with the ways things are, and not necessarily because of the patent system in it self.

    1 Patent lawyers granting patents for technology that shouldn't be patentable. Not a problem with the patent system, but with the people working with the patent system.

    2 Patent trolls. In many cases, companies who don't produce anything, but holding plenty of patents. Acting as maffia. Partly a problem with the patent system, partly a problem with other things. Changing the patent system, so that a patent is only valid, as long as it is used would fix a large part of the problem.

    3 Patent system only protects large companies and only hits on small companies. A problem with the legal system in general. In this case, there are two major companies. This will settle with minor costs to the loser, thus not making it a risk to violate patents. Cross licensing will occure in the end.

    The small companies can't afford to violate a patent on the other hand, it also can't afford to defend a patent either. The only reasons for a small company to get a patent, is to make sure that they themeself can continue to produce their invention without being sued and to collect royalties from small enough companies and honest enough large companies.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @07:18AM (#30797306)

    At the end of the day, we use lawyers whenever there is conflict in order to resolve conflict without resorting to bashing each other over the head with clubs and large rocks.

    For this reason, we always associate lawyers with conflict and unpleasantness. Perhaps this closeness to conflict does bring out the worst in the lawyers themselves.

    But it can also bring out the best in people: Think of some of the great lawyers e.g. Mahatma Ghandi or Nelson Mandela.

    Or would you rather see this conflict solved gladiatorially between Steve Jobs and Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo? In that case, twenty quatludes on the tallest one...

  • by Reemi (142518) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @07:22AM (#30797324)

    Problem is, Nokia holds patents on CDMA and general phone concepts as well. No way Apple will be able to sell a CDMA phone without licensing Nokia IPR.

    In fact, this fight is not over only the mentioned 10 patents, but covers hundreds of patents. But due to the cost of fighting about all patents, a few key ones are selected for the legal fight. This is standard practice.

    Apple has no choice other then creating a licensing agreement with Nokia or leave the market.

    Some mentioned 'fair' agreement. Problem is, how much is the value of your patent portfolio. Take for example Ericsson, they hold key patents in cellular technology. 10 of their patents have more value for Nokia then 10 of Apple patents. Apple patents do not apply to e.g. their low end, PC-card/module and network product. (Assuming here Apple patents are in majority covering the field of UI)

  • by sopssa (1498795) * <sopssa@email.com> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @07:29AM (#30797354) Journal

    While I also think Nokia's phones haven't been up to quality in recent years (I switched to HTC and love it), they have a long history in developing phones and the technology behind it. They have spend millions on R&D. They fairly cross license patents with other manufacturers, like every one else does (theres not so many manufacturers anyways), but Apple refuses to do this.

    Even if their phones aren't as good as some competitors currently, Nokia is one of the companies that actually deserve to be paid their patent royalties.

    While patent laws are on Nokia's side too, they aren't even lowering to patent trolling - they're just asking Apple to behave good and like everyone else on the small industry and cross license their patents and pay the small share like everyone else does (3-4% per phone sale if I remember correctly, and Apple gets the same back if Nokia uses their patents). Is this too much to ask?

  • by sopssa (1498795) * <sopssa@email.com> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @08:57AM (#30797622) Journal

    Microsoft big enough for you?

  • by dunkelfalke (91624) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @09:04AM (#30797650)

    Microsoft, Vodafone, Cisco, Intel, Samsung Electronics...

  • by fractoid (1076465) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @09:39AM (#30797804) Homepage

    Is it really cheaper to sue for peace? I mean, can't the legal teams for both companies see this down the road and come to some sort of mutual agreement in advance? It'd sure save a lot of time and money, not to mentioning freeing the courts a bit. Why is it acceptable policy to sue instead of discussing?

    Yeah, you know what this is REALLY about? The fact that Nokia has just released a few iPhone-class devices that dramatically undercut the inflated prices Apple is asking while providing 99% of the value. Take the 5800 XM for instance, I recently got one and it does about 80% of things just as well as an iphone and the rest it does better. And it's $29/mo where I live compared to $89/mo for an iphone. They're trying to scare competitors out of their marketplace, nothing more nothing less.

  • by V!NCENT (1105021) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @09:49AM (#30797866)

    So what you mean is there is a cabal of companies working together to limit competition [...]

    No. What I am saying is that there is a 'cabal' of companies who encourage competition by sharing, and encourage sharing, of patents so that the entire global market stays healthy and Apple went "Fsck you, we are not going to cross license our patents".

    So when Apple 'evolved' the market with multi-touch, they said: Nobody but can have multi-touch and thus limit competition.

  • by CptPicard (680154) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @09:50AM (#30797870)

    These patents are even more trivial than GSM, 3G and Wi-Fi

    Care to explain how these patents are trivial? I would say that they are the most central patents you can imagine in the field...

  • by sopssa (1498795) * <sopssa@email.com> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @10:03AM (#30797964) Journal

    I personally like this improvement. Slashdotters aren't called fanboys anymore, but shareholders. Sounds a lot more classy and like everyone on slashdot is rich.

  • by jo_ham (604554) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (999mahoj)> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @10:49AM (#30798250)

    You also have to weigh the fact that Apple is a big target and is under much heavier scrutiny - just look at the way Greenpeace treated them in their "well researched" green technology/environmental roundup, where companies like Dell and HP scored much better despite being 20 years behind Apple in several areas related to environmental factors like removal of BFRs from products, removal of particular toxins from packaging, cables, lead free solder, energy use etc etc.

    Apple are not blameless by any means, but in general they are not the textbook "evil" company that some people like to make out they are with some of the casual commentary I have seen in these comments so far. Usually little throwaway opinion bits made to look like facts and then used to support a later point, that sort of thing.

    Incidentally, what did you really expect them to do regarding Jobs' health? The health of a CEO (even one as pivotal as Steve) is a private matter. They're not just going to tell you "oh yeah, he's touch and go and having treatment for pancreatic cancer...", they are going to remain tight lipped. It's no different from any other large company. You can argue that Jobs is a "special case" because of his "magic touch" at Apple, but that really doesn't hold water. His health issues are private. I didn't like the eventual way he essentially had to come out and openly talk about his condition and treatment in a public setting. He was hounded incessantly until he gave it up.

  • by Spatial (1235392) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @11:22AM (#30798522)

    I agree that they should take it to the EU, not that I usually support the EU's special brand of crazy that gives them liscence to print money from other peoples accounts (Intel, Microsoft) but it would be fantastic to finally see Apple being held to the same standard as everyone else.

    Fining companies for harming the market and consumers is the exact opposite of 'crazy'. Such fines have long-term benefits for everybody big and small alike.

    Price fixing, collusion, anti-competitive practises. They are bad. They hurt companies. They hurt consumers in both choice and price.

    And if you're alluding to the notion that the EU only fines non EU-based companies: the meme is false. Dozens of other EU companies have been fined on precisely the same grounds. You never heard of it because as far as the US media is concerned, things that don't affect the USA don't exist. That goes for Slashdot too.

  • by arose (644256) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @12:23PM (#30798960)

    And Nokia said "give us multi touch for essentially free or we will make it very difficult for you to operate a cellphone because we control the patents on talking to celltowers"

    It's not "essentially free" when they get something very valuable for it. Now if Nokia or Apple was paying hard cash for the others patents, but then gave a license for theirs then would the other party have something for free. In the scope of the existing patent system Nokia isn't asking for anything for free.

  • by Carewolf (581105) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @12:33PM (#30799034) Homepage

    I am with Nokia on this issue, but don't make the mistake of thinking they are good guys. Nokia has traditionally been the Microsoft of the cell phone industry. Ignoring standards, making their own incompatible standards and even making phones with severe security issues. They had SMS viruses at one point! Also Nokia has been pushing for software patents in Europe, making them a sworn enemy of many geeks.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 17, 2010 @12:52PM (#30799162)

    "This is not just all Apple. Both companies are slugging it out here "

    We know that. Prior pro-Nokia posts have acknowledged that. That is the nature of disputes. That's not the point of this debate, although you may be trying to re-establish the grounds of it because you're getting your ass kicked.

    What is is who is at fault with no wanting to license or cross license, namely Nokia does cross license, Apple has been saying "screw your patents and we ain't giving you access to ours."

    "It's cheaper to just cross licence"

    Umm, yeah, that's what people have been saying. Nokia cross licenses. Apple isn't. Yet, strangely, you side with Apple.

    "You can see it from both sides."

    Yes, you can. But it seems the new player wants to change the rules of the patent game because of who they are. Which, of course, is fine, but Apple has been dicks in the past on their IP far more than Nokia has, so it's astounding that given prior history, people are backing Apple because, well, they're Apple.

  • by Svartalf (2997) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @01:04PM (#30799254) Homepage

    I fear that Multitouch is worth quite a bit less than the R&D the phone device companies have pitched in here. It's a nice, nifty feature, but if Bilski is upheld or made more stringent by the SCOTUS, it's worth QUITE a bit less as it's a software patent- not to mention that it's not in the same scope and scale as the stuff Nokia, Qualcomm, and a few others have come up with in this space.

    Apple'd be better served by playing ball here on this one as they've quite a bit more to lose than Nokia does in the big-picture sense of things here.

  • by Idiot with a gun (1081749) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @01:18PM (#30799356)
    Yes, that is exactly what he is saying.
  • by Svartalf (2997) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @01:19PM (#30799358) Homepage

    If Nokia is holding back Apple (and any other entry) due to tower communication technology licensing, that is a very monopolistic tactic, Nokia is not in their right, end of story.

    You obviously don't understand how Patents work in the first place.

    If I hold a patent I can bar damned near ANYONE from implementing it as a manufacturing endeavor- even with people not doing it for profits. Now, in the act of doing so, I might run afoul of certain anti-trust laws in some countries- but in most cases, I will not.

    If Apple's not ponying up the licensing, they shouldn't be allowed to sell their stuff that uses the tech. Now, nobody's disclosed what Apple's been offered as terms for this access. Odds on, it's along the lines of licensing multitouch and a few other things out to all the players in the mobile device space that's part of the GSM consortium- which is par for the course and part of the RAND terms extended to all the GSM consortium members (even though Apple's not a member right at the moment...). If this is the case, Apple's being ill-behaved and should be on the receiving end of this- and I've little doubt in my mind about that being a part of this. Apple's viewing, rightly, that they have some "secret sauce" in multitouch that if they cross-license, there's less value in an iPhone as a result (If multitouch is the only real selling point, it's not as good a product as they're making out to be... ;-) )- which would be right.

    Unfortunately for Apple, they have to play ball here- or take the iPhone out of circulation because it's infringing and they're unwilling to play by the rules of the game. Unless the terms are disclosed and found to not be RAND, there's little room for Apple to frame this as monopolistic (Patents are monopolies of reproduction given to companies and inventors by governments to foster and promote the furtherance of science and technology...).

  • by jo_ham (604554) <(moc.liamg) (ta) (999mahoj)> on Sunday January 17, 2010 @01:24PM (#30799388)

    My point was that Greenpeace nailed Apple for all sorts of things that Apple very easily and demonstrably proved were not the case, while HP and Dell were giving good marks by Greenpeace for much less.

    It's only relevant in regard to the way people scrutinize Apple. Greenpeace heavily criticised Apple for BFRs, and awarded HP a higher score for "planning make a plan to eliminate BFRs" (ie, not even actually doing much) where Apple had already removed the bulk of BFRs from their products several years before and was almost totally done - years and years ahead of HP, yet they were scored lower by Greenpeace.

    I'm not saying that Apple is not at fault, or that they should be trusted implicitly, but you can't always believe everything you read, even if it is negative.

  • by Fackamato (913248) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:23PM (#30801326)

    FWIW, I've an 5800 XM too. It sucks balls. It's so slow, that just flipping the mobile over to rotate the screen takes seconds in some cases. Nothing is instant on this phone, you have to wait for everything. If this is even remotely comparable to the iPhone...

    Seriously, not a joke: Flip the phone on its side, open the applications folder. Wait 7 seconds, and they show up. At least on my 5800. Did I mention that it hangs, occasionally?

  • by Weezul (52464) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @05:25PM (#30801344)

    Apple does not deliver fundamentally new technology like Nokia; well not during the last 10 years anyways, the Newton was new, original Mac was new, etc.

    Applie meditates upon existing technology and works out how to present the technology so that the average user will benefit most. Incremental backups like Time Machine have existed forever, ala rsync, but Apple slapping on a gui with a starscape has saved thousands of users from losing irreplaceable data.

    Apple will need to pay royalties for the underlying technology they are using. Indeed, they'll owe Nokia massive damages for the past 3 years, possibly exceeding the total value of all iPhone's sold thus far. Nokia was extremely forgiving by offering merely a cross licensing deal.

  • by mdwh2 (535323) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @06:13PM (#30801798) Journal

    I love my 5800. Sure, there may be some things that the Iphone does better, but then there are things the Iphone does worse. Hell, even my 5 year old cheapo Motorola V980 had things that the Iphone models couldn't do, and in some cases still can't do.

    And anyhow - the 5800 is a fraction of the price of the Apple phones (about half price on UK PAYG prices), so what do you expect? It's not going to have as fast a processor at that price. There are higher end Nokia models - and they've been making "iPhone-class devices" long before the first Iphone was even thought of.

    Did I mention that it hangs, occasionally?

    Never had a hang, mine just works.

  • by mdwh2 (535323) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @06:18PM (#30801840) Journal

    According to wikipedia their share of the device market was 38% in Q3 2009. Alluvasudden some upstart invades *their* mobile phone market, steals a big chunk of *their* share of the smartphone market

    A few percent is big? Well, I suppose it is a loss to Nokia, even if it's only a few per cent - but why aren't they going after RIM, as they're a company gaining even higher share than Apple?

    and to make matters worse no matter what they do Nokia can't seem to beat the Apple iPhone even when they practically copy it

    What? Nokia were making phones long before Apple were around - who's copying who here? And by your own source, they still appear to be beating Apple massively in the market - or let me guess, are you redefining success to mean something else?

  • by pydev (1683904) on Sunday January 17, 2010 @09:19PM (#30803248)

    Evidence would be nice in an accusation.

    That's like asking for evidence that WWII happened. Go read up on Apple corporate history.

    Also, I guess he is saying that Apple does not "spend massive amounts of money to research"

    Apple used to do research and collaborate with universities, but they stopped in the 1990's.

    Today, Apple spends virtually no money on research, as you can see from their non-existent research output (=publications, citations), from their lack of hiring in computer science research, and from their lack of interaction with computer science departments. Furthermore, the iPhone and almost all its fundamental technologies were invented elsewhere.

    and is not responsible for shaking up the mobile phone market

    They are definitely responsible for that.

    and giving more power to the consumer.

    With what? Lock-in not only to a carrier but to Apple products as well? By disabling such commonplace technology as tethering? By not allowing me to install software on my phone? By having a crippled Bluetooth implementation that doesn't talk to standard devices? Do tell, what power does an iPhone give me that I didn't have before?

    Don't get me wrong: Apple does great product design and their products are decent (if premium priced). And Apple's impact on the industry has often been positive overall by getting other companies out of their ruts. But Apple is not the great innovator or inventor they are made out to be, and they deserve neither the credit nor the monopoly that their fanboys want to give them.

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