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Comments: 127 +- Apple: Apple Forced To Clean Up Its Fine Print on Saturday November 28, @12:09AM
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by
Soulskill
on Saturday November 28, @12:09AM
from the by-reading-this-you-bequeath-me-all-your-possessions dept.
from the by-reading-this-you-bequeath-me-all-your-possessions dept.
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Barence writes "Apple has been forced to tidy up its online terms and conditions, at the behest of the UK's Office of Fair Trading. The company has redrafted its Ts & Cs so that it now accepts liability for faulty or misdescribed goods sold from its website or the iTunes store. Apple must also ensure that its conditions are 'drafted in plain or intelligible language' and that they 'do not potentially allow changes to be made to products and prices after an agreement is made.'"
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Good news... (Score:5, Insightful)
do not potentially allow changes to be made to products and prices after an agreement is made.
As I've said numerous times, this is why EULAs are unenforcable in the UK. It does not stop Apple from adding a feature or function in the future and requiring the user to agree to new T&Cs. It also means they cant force an upgrade with new T&Cs without giving the buyer the option of a refund.
Re:Good news... (Score:4, Interesting)
Exactly as should happen here in America. If I recall there was a cell phone company that pushed a firmware update to a line of phones that removed its Bluetooth data capability and GPS functionality. Well, not really removed, locked is more like it. Locked until you decided to pay a few dollars a month to unlock them..they got taken to court but nothing ever came of it because it was said that a judgment favoring the plaintiff would remove incentive for companies to keep their products up to date technologically. Huh?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for that.
Do you remember which company, and what phones?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Verizon? Blackberry?
I don't live in the US, so I'm not sure if that is the one the grandparent poster has in mind.
Re:Good news... (Score:4, Interesting)
As a Verizon Wireless Blackberry Curve owner, I assume he's talking about this pile of crap. Verizon had a class action suit brought against them because they locked out GPS functionality to only work with their utter crap GPS service. This means you can't use it for ANYTHING, even non-navigation related things. So the suit is brought against them, what do they do? The assholes unlock it to work with just BlackBerry Maps (another crap application.) Yet they decide to fully unlock GPS on the other Blackberrys? I just want to know the logic behind this, to get people to buy a new phone (which makes them LESS money ironically)? Yeah, good luck with that Verizon, all you're doing is driving me away, in 2 months when my plan runs out it's time to go to ATT, land of the non-crippled, superior Blackberry. I urge everyone else to do so as well.
Parent
oh, that (Score:5, Funny)
you mean, the iTunes clause:
You also agree that you will not use these products for any purposes prohibited by United States law, including, without limitation, the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons.
??
Re:oh, that (Score:4, Funny)
Finally, the bad guys aren't allowed to add Rickrolling to their WMDs. We can sleep in peace.
Parent
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Looks like I need to unsubscribe from that DIY ICBM podcast. And the host was so witty and charming....
Achmedinejad is on ham radio, too.
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Neither is Ahmadinejad.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Y'know, the Microsoft JVM EULA (or maybe it was the Windows 98 EULA?) had a clause almost identical to that for years before iTunes was even a concept. It bugs me every time I hear someone call it the "iTunes clause"...
--- Mr. DOS
Re:oh, that (Score:5, Funny)
Y'know, the Microsoft JVM EULA (or maybe it was the Windows 98 EULA?) had a clause almost identical to that for years before iTunes was even a concept. It bugs me every time I hear someone call it the "iTunes clause"...
So you're saying we have evidence that Apple copy stuff from Microsoft.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Well at least with the JVM it's rather possible that it could be used in such a way.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
That's because a JVM is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled, and if they are filled, when you put your program in, it gets in line, and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into the tube enormous emounts of information, enormous amounts of information.
And then, if it gets too congested, your JVM explodes, taking the entire internet with it!
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That's because it's not an atomic clock.
Re:oh, that (Score:5, Informative)
Different thing, the clause is wider and it is telling you not to use the software for very mission critical applications:
* This software is not designed or intended for use in on-line control of
* aircraft, air traffic, aircraft navigation or aircraft communications; or in
* the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear
* facilit. Licensee represents and warrants that it will not use or
* redistribute the Software for such purposes.
http://java.sun.com/applets/jdk/1.4/demo/applets/Clock/Clock.java [sun.com]
Parent
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This implies the time it took would be less than the times of other occasions, I take it?
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So if you play music while you conceiving a kid, and your son becomes a soldier (chemical and biological weapon), do you get into trouble ?
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Well, I guess since the Steve Jobs reality distortion bubble is a chemical and biological weapon, because it changes the chemistry and biology of the brains of the affected, you could sue them for anti-competitive behavior (hindering the development of competing reality distortion bubbles), to get that clause removed. ^^
Misdescribed Goods (Score:5, Funny)
iTunes lists rap stars as recording artists . Would that fall under the "faulty or misdescribed goods" part?
Re: (Score:2)
Depends.
Lil Wayne: Definitely not.
Scroobious Pip: Oh hell yeah!
Re:Misdescribed Goods (Score:4, Funny)
iTunes also lists rap in their music section. Would that fall under the "faulty or misdescribed goods" part?
Parent
Including fitness for a particular purpose (Score:5, Insightful)
I've always loved the absurdity of these phrases. Apple disclaims all implied warranties including the implied warranties that their products are what they claim to be and are suitable for the purpose they are advertised for.
In other words, as far as Apple is concerned, if you open your new Macbook Pro box and find a boat anchor instead of a laptop, tough luck.
Re:Including fitness for a particular purpose (Score:5, Insightful)
Finding a boat anchor would be a bonus. Boat anchors tend to be attached to boats, which have GPS that works.
Parent
Does such a fabled place truly exist? (Score:4, Funny)
must also ensure that its conditions are 'drafted in plain or intelligible language'
Surely this is a land without lawyers. Where is this 'United Kingdom' and how soon may we journey to its fair shores?
Re:Does such a fabled place truly exist? (Score:5, Funny)
The United Kingdom is the place wherein lies England, the home of the one and only plain an intelligible language that we all love and know - English. Some languages are non-plain using fancy characters but *all* other languages are unintelligible - ironically none more so than one from another part of the United Kingdom - Welsh.
Parent
Re:Does such a fabled place truly exist? (Score:5, Funny)
A Brit friend was visiting the USA and phoned the operator (could have been the internal operator at his large company) to ask which international dialling prefix he should use to call home. A short silence then... "United Kingdom? Is that an amusement park?"
Parent
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What they didn’t mention: “drafted in plain or intelligible NEWSPEAK language” ^^
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It's not so much that it's without lawyers. It's just been around long enough to have figured out that it's not good for a society to put corporations in charge of absolutely everything.
Unfortunately, it's younger cousin across the atlantic has not made this discovery yet, but I have high hopes.
Windows XP Professional license agreement (Score:2, Interesting)
-- Windows XP Professional license agreement
Re:Windows XP Professional license agreement (Score:5, Insightful)
"In no event shall Microsoft be liable for any damages whatsoever, even in the event of fault (including negligence)."
I always thought that these notices are very odd. I mean, can I put up a sign that says "In no event shall Esben be responsible for any crime he might do" and expect it to have any effect?
Parent
Re:Windows XP Professional license agreement (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, the asshole truckers that carry small rocks without covering up the load think they're accomplishing something by having a notice:
"Stay back 200 ft -- Not responsible for damaged windshields"
Yet they know damn well that they'll be at fault for such damage. Go fig.
I'm guessing it's just an attempt to deceive people into thinking they don't have rights that they really do ... which should probably be illegal.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
In other news... (Score:4, Informative)
About half of 369 websites selling electronic goods checked in an EU crackdown [eubusiness.com] were found to have exactly these sorts of problems.
Of course, 99% of those websites weren't run by Apple, so they don't get singled out in the press. Fair do's I guess - 99% of companies don't get every product launch reported by the BBC, either.
The EU "distance selling" regulations (which include the UK) are fairly tight and comparatively recent.
Re:But do they... (Score:4, Insightful)
One blog. Two cases. Everything links back to the one blog. I think we've just promoted another molehill up to mountain status.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Allow you to be a smoker and still get your iCrap serviced under warranty?
Here's Apple, trying to save everybody from lung cancer and all I see are complaints!
If you won't think of the children then Apple have to!
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Allow you to be a smoker and still get your iCrap serviced under warranty?
Probably not if the cause of the fault is that it is gunked up with foul-smelling tar. Go read the fine print in every warranty under the sun about not covering neglect or misuse.
Has anybody asked Dell, HP, Sony etc. what they would do in these circumstances? Thought not.
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And you wonder why Apple users start to get an attitude? It's because we've been suffering dolt-ish comments like this for so long.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
And you wonder why Apple users start to get an attitude? It's because we've been suffering dolt-ish comments like this for so long.
I thought it was because you were broke...
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I thought it was because they just hated the way Adam Lambert is being treated so unfairly by the celebrity media.
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"it is just that the usee misunderstands"
Actually, I think Apple is the usee and the purchaser of said products would be the user. :-)
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TFTFY :-P
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Is it me or do Apple get in trouble in the UK a lot? I think there's about 4 Apple adverts that have been deemed false advertising by ASA, and now this? Have they really not bothered to hire any UK lawyers?
Would you though? Game Theory would suggest (to me anyway) that any loss possible in the UK is nothing compared to the possible losses in the US. I'd hire nothing but US lawyers too.
Illegal conditions in your EULA in the UK? get your knuckles rapped and correct it - end of story.
Sell a product in the US? prepare for endless lawsuits varying in their stupidity.
Re:Apple and the UK (Score:4, Funny)
Cant say about the UK but in AU we have similar laws, bank and telco ad's get pulled all the time. Often they come back with ridiculous amounts of fine print displayed in 3 seconds to comply with advertising standards.
With Apple, they deliberately misrepresent their goods so of course these kinds of things happen, MS don't release an ad that often and always get it checked (if not done by) a local ad agency who will ensure its compliance. Occasionally they do get ad's pulled though, the "get the Facts(R)*+" campaign for example.
* - Facts(R) is a registered trademark of Microsoft(TM) and may not represent any actual facts.
+ - May contain traces of nut egg or seed.
Parent
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They were complained about adverts for the iPhone - it was ironic that with such a great product they had to stoop to such misrepresentation.
Still, I'd rather have those lies back if they replaced the Windows 7 adverts they have here - I'm hoping for a version of Duck Hunt featuring all the annoying guys in the ads to hit the market in time for Christmas.
Re:Apple and the UK (Score:5, Informative)
Is it me or do Apple get in trouble in the UK a lot?
More a case of whenever Apple get in trouble it tends to be over-reported. Ads get pulled all the time. Also, its largely driven by how many "members of the public" complain.
Have they really not bothered to hire any UK lawyers?
The ASA [asa.org.uk] is an independent industry regulator enforcing a "code of conduct" so the law doesn't necessarily come in to it.
However, no, I don't think Apple really understands the way advertising works in the UK: a prestige brand like Apple is supposed to give us 40 seconds of entertainment with a "pack shot" at the end. If you make specific claims about the product, people will check (if a cosmetics firm says "8 out of 10 women in our survey said they felt younger looking" then they better have those stats). Knocking the competitor's product really isn't cricket and is fairly rare. I notice that although Apple initially made UK versions of the "I'm a Mac" ads (with a British comedy duo) that didn't last long.
On the other hand, Apple also think that a British keyboard is an American keyboard with the # key replaced by a £ sign. Twits.
Parent
Wrong (Score:3, Informative)
That's not "standard practice" in the UK for the sale of goods. We have an entire "sale of goods act" outlining a customer's rights, for example that a contract is final and binding once money has changed hands, that a seller has specific undisclaimable responsibilities with regards to the quality of goods (a kind of super-warranty) and so on. Apple is being held to the same standard as everyone else.