Apple Forced To Clean Up Its Fine Print 127
Barence writes "Apple has been forced to tidy up its online terms and conditions, at the behest of the UK's Office of Fair Trading. The company has redrafted its Ts & Cs so that it now accepts liability for faulty or misdescribed goods sold from its website or the iTunes store. Apple must also ensure that its conditions are 'drafted in plain or intelligible language' and that they 'do not potentially allow changes to be made to products and prices after an agreement is made.'"
Good news... (Score:5, Insightful)
do not potentially allow changes to be made to products and prices after an agreement is made.
As I've said numerous times, this is why EULAs are unenforcable in the UK. It does not stop Apple from adding a feature or function in the future and requiring the user to agree to new T&Cs. It also means they cant force an upgrade with new T&Cs without giving the buyer the option of a refund.
Re:Good news... (Score:4, Interesting)
Exactly as should happen here in America. If I recall there was a cell phone company that pushed a firmware update to a line of phones that removed its Bluetooth data capability and GPS functionality. Well, not really removed, locked is more like it. Locked until you decided to pay a few dollars a month to unlock them..they got taken to court but nothing ever came of it because it was said that a judgment favoring the plaintiff would remove incentive for companies to keep their products up to date technologically. Huh?
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Thanks for that.
Do you remember which company, and what phones?
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Verizon? Blackberry?
I don't live in the US, so I'm not sure if that is the one the grandparent poster has in mind.
Re:Good news... (Score:4, Interesting)
As a Verizon Wireless Blackberry Curve owner, I assume he's talking about this pile of crap. Verizon had a class action suit brought against them because they locked out GPS functionality to only work with their utter crap GPS service. This means you can't use it for ANYTHING, even non-navigation related things. So the suit is brought against them, what do they do? The assholes unlock it to work with just BlackBerry Maps (another crap application.) Yet they decide to fully unlock GPS on the other Blackberrys? I just want to know the logic behind this, to get people to buy a new phone (which makes them LESS money ironically)? Yeah, good luck with that Verizon, all you're doing is driving me away, in 2 months when my plan runs out it's time to go to ATT, land of the non-crippled, superior Blackberry. I urge everyone else to do so as well.
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Sprint?! (Score:2)
*walks in the direction of sprint*
Ha! Sprint? Wait until you see what their proprietary firmware does to your phone. Verizon is probably worse now, but only because they took Sprint's castrated firmware strategy and ran with it. Most Verizon and Sprint customers don't even know what their phone's real software looks like. AT&T is probably jealous they haven't been able to keep up, but I'm sure they're working on it.
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Something tells me the situation is more complex than you think it is.
http://www.girr.org/mac_stuff/usb_stuff.html [girr.org]
I've never heard of a vendor *supporting* third party power supplies in other forms, so USB power supply & draw specs sound like they need to be nailed down a lot tighter to be taken seriously.
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do not potentially allow changes
But the hammer..!! The Hammer!!!
psystar should move to the uk and likely be able t (Score:2)
psystar should move to the uk and likely be able to do what they are doing for a lot more law on there side.
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It also means they cant force an upgrade with new T&Cs without giving the buyer the option of a refund.
When did Apple force an upgrade? Whenever you update your software, you must agree to the EULA again, otherwise the update is not installed. It's not forced in any way.
As I've said numerous times, this is why EULAs are unenforcable in the UK.
Well, I suspect you've been wrong many times, because this is not a logical statement. Just because some terms in a EULA might be unenforceable, doesn't mean that EULAs as a whole are unenforceable. And the situation is identical in the USA.
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oh, that (Score:5, Funny)
you mean, the iTunes clause:
You also agree that you will not use these products for any purposes prohibited by United States law, including, without limitation, the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons.
??
Re:oh, that (Score:4, Funny)
Finally, the bad guys aren't allowed to add Rickrolling to their WMDs. We can sleep in peace.
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Looks like I need to unsubscribe from that DIY ICBM podcast. And the host was so witty and charming....
Achmedinejad is on ham radio, too.
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I think you'll find that ham isn't Halal.
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Neither is Ahmadinejad.
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Hanging him upside down, and letting him bleed to death ? Sounds good to me (but far too good for him).
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Does anyone know the history of the Ahmadines and the Jihads?
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Y'know, the Microsoft JVM EULA (or maybe it was the Windows 98 EULA?) had a clause almost identical to that for years before iTunes was even a concept. It bugs me every time I hear someone call it the "iTunes clause"...
--- Mr. DOS
Re:oh, that (Score:5, Funny)
Y'know, the Microsoft JVM EULA (or maybe it was the Windows 98 EULA?) had a clause almost identical to that for years before iTunes was even a concept. It bugs me every time I hear someone call it the "iTunes clause"...
So you're saying we have evidence that Apple copy stuff from Microsoft.
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Well at least with the JVM it's rather possible that it could be used in such a way.
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That's because a JVM is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled, and if they are filled, when you put your program in, it gets in line, and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into the tube enormous emounts of information, enormous amounts of information.
And then, if it gets too congested, your JVM explodes, taking the entire internet with it!
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That's because it's not an atomic clock.
Re:oh, that (Score:5, Informative)
Different thing, the clause is wider and it is telling you not to use the software for very mission critical applications:
* This software is not designed or intended for use in on-line control of
* aircraft, air traffic, aircraft navigation or aircraft communications; or in
* the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear
* facilit. Licensee represents and warrants that it will not use or
* redistribute the Software for such purposes.
http://java.sun.com/applets/jdk/1.4/demo/applets/Clock/Clock.java [sun.com]
no, it's just about the money (Score:1, Interesting)
As someone who's spent a couple of decades developing systems for
on-line control of aircraft, air traffic, aircraft navigation or aircraft communications; or in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facilit.
I can tell you from first-hand experience that that clause is *NOT* telling you not to use the software in those applications -- what it *IS* telling you is that they want you to negotiate a custom license (for a custom fee, of course) for the right to use the software in those applications.
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Well, in part that is true. They would be happy to negotiate a license for such use. But it also means that the code was not designed with such purposes in mind, and likely had far less stringent code review, specifications, and coding standards then is normally required for such purposes.
It likely also does not meet the legal standards for those applications.
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This implies the time it took would be less than the times of other occasions, I take it?
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You'd fill the Grand Canyon in record time if you saw what was and is being used in nuclear facilities...
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Yes, but how would you know that the "record time" was accurate ?
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I tell you what, as much as I like Java as a programming language, I'd fill my underwear in record time if I ever discovered it was used in any nuclear facility.
Well, thanks to JIT, your waste can be converted into usable fuel for the plant itself, no matter how fast you fill your underwear buffer.
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As if the people who manufacture biological weapon delivery system contrary to US law will care about a EULA clause in the JVM they run their software on.
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So if you play music while you conceiving a kid, and your son becomes a soldier (chemical and biological weapon), do you get into trouble ?
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Well, I guess since the Steve Jobs reality distortion bubble is a chemical and biological weapon, because it changes the chemistry and biology of the brains of the affected, you could sue them for anti-competitive behavior (hindering the development of competing reality distortion bubbles), to get that clause removed. ^^
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How many times ? Unless the iBoom missile hardware is made by Apple, you can not install Mac OSX on it ! It says so in the EULA !
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Something tells me that bomb builders want hardware that Just Works.
Laaaaa (Score:1, Funny)
And that's why I am a PC. :)
Misdescribed Goods (Score:5, Funny)
iTunes lists rap stars as recording artists . Would that fall under the "faulty or misdescribed goods" part?
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Depends.
Lil Wayne: Definitely not.
Scroobious Pip: Oh hell yeah!
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(C) Rap 1990
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I know exactly what you mean. It told me you were funny.
Re:Misdescribed Goods (Score:4, Funny)
iTunes also lists rap in their music section. Would that fall under the "faulty or misdescribed goods" part?
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The "candidates for an early death by driveby shooting or long prison sentence for drug dealing and 'whippin ma ho'" section was too wide to fit on the iPhone display.
Including fitness for a particular purpose (Score:5, Insightful)
I've always loved the absurdity of these phrases. Apple disclaims all implied warranties including the implied warranties that their products are what they claim to be and are suitable for the purpose they are advertised for.
In other words, as far as Apple is concerned, if you open your new Macbook Pro box and find a boat anchor instead of a laptop, tough luck.
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The Lottery in Babylon [frot.org]... why not? As long as it's blessed by Steve^W God and The Company ;)
Re:Including fitness for a particular purpose (Score:5, Insightful)
Finding a boat anchor would be a bonus. Boat anchors tend to be attached to boats, which have GPS that works.
Does such a fabled place truly exist? (Score:4, Funny)
must also ensure that its conditions are 'drafted in plain or intelligible language'
Surely this is a land without lawyers. Where is this 'United Kingdom' and how soon may we journey to its fair shores?
Re:Does such a fabled place truly exist? (Score:5, Funny)
The United Kingdom is the place wherein lies England, the home of the one and only plain an intelligible language that we all love and know - English. Some languages are non-plain using fancy characters but *all* other languages are unintelligible - ironically none more so than one from another part of the United Kingdom - Welsh.
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Hmm, let's see ...
"London" English - "Excuse me Sir, have you seen my Chicken Sandwich"
"Scouse" English - "Hey la, wess me Shicken Butty"
Yup, completely plain an intelligible language, provided you live in a 10 mile radius of Big Ben.
Re:Does such a fabled place truly exist? (Score:5, Funny)
A Brit friend was visiting the USA and phoned the operator (could have been the internal operator at his large company) to ask which international dialling prefix he should use to call home. A short silence then... "United Kingdom? Is that an amusement park?"
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What they didn’t mention: “drafted in plain or intelligible NEWSPEAK language” ^^
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It's not so much that it's without lawyers. It's just been around long enough to have figured out that it's not good for a society to put corporations in charge of absolutely everything.
Unfortunately, it's younger cousin across the atlantic has not made this discovery yet, but I have high hopes.
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Actually, there needs to be an Antitrust suit against the "House of Lords" for anticompetitive behaviour since they disallow any competition with their rule.
Apple and the UK (Score:1)
Is it me or do Apple get in trouble in the UK a lot? I think there's about 4 Apple adverts that have been deemed false advertising by ASA, and now this? Have they really not bothered to hire any UK lawyers?
Anyway this is a bit of a moot point. Terms in a contract that contradict the Distance Selling Regulations or the Sale of Goods act are obviously null (especially so if Apple included the line "This does not affect your statutory rights" or similar), and The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulatio
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Is it me or do Apple get in trouble in the UK a lot? I think there's about 4 Apple adverts that have been deemed false advertising by ASA, and now this? Have they really not bothered to hire any UK lawyers?
Would you though? Game Theory would suggest (to me anyway) that any loss possible in the UK is nothing compared to the possible losses in the US. I'd hire nothing but US lawyers too.
Illegal conditions in your EULA in the UK? get your knuckles rapped and correct it - end of story.
Sell a product in the US? prepare for endless lawsuits varying in their stupidity.
Re:Apple and the UK (Score:4, Funny)
Cant say about the UK but in AU we have similar laws, bank and telco ad's get pulled all the time. Often they come back with ridiculous amounts of fine print displayed in 3 seconds to comply with advertising standards.
With Apple, they deliberately misrepresent their goods so of course these kinds of things happen, MS don't release an ad that often and always get it checked (if not done by) a local ad agency who will ensure its compliance. Occasionally they do get ad's pulled though, the "get the Facts(R)*+" campaign for example.
* - Facts(R) is a registered trademark of Microsoft(TM) and may not represent any actual facts.
+ - May contain traces of nut egg or seed.
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They were complained about adverts for the iPhone - it was ironic that with such a great product they had to stoop to such misrepresentation.
Still, I'd rather have those lies back if they replaced the Windows 7 adverts they have here - I'm hoping for a version of Duck Hunt featuring all the annoying guys in the ads to hit the market in time for Christmas.
Re:Apple and the UK (Score:5, Informative)
Is it me or do Apple get in trouble in the UK a lot?
More a case of whenever Apple get in trouble it tends to be over-reported. Ads get pulled all the time. Also, its largely driven by how many "members of the public" complain.
Have they really not bothered to hire any UK lawyers?
The ASA [asa.org.uk] is an independent industry regulator enforcing a "code of conduct" so the law doesn't necessarily come in to it.
However, no, I don't think Apple really understands the way advertising works in the UK: a prestige brand like Apple is supposed to give us 40 seconds of entertainment with a "pack shot" at the end. If you make specific claims about the product, people will check (if a cosmetics firm says "8 out of 10 women in our survey said they felt younger looking" then they better have those stats). Knocking the competitor's product really isn't cricket and is fairly rare. I notice that although Apple initially made UK versions of the "I'm a Mac" ads (with a British comedy duo) that didn't last long.
On the other hand, Apple also think that a British keyboard is an American keyboard with the # key replaced by a £ sign. Twits.
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I notice that although Apple initially made UK versions of the "I'm a Mac" ads (with a British comedy duo) that didn't last long.
Because the duo were also in a comedy show (Peep Show) where the "I'm a Mac" guy was a complete tosser that no-one liked.
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Windows XP Professional license agreement (Score:2, Interesting)
-- Windows XP Professional license agreement
Re:Windows XP Professional license agreement (Score:5, Insightful)
"In no event shall Microsoft be liable for any damages whatsoever, even in the event of fault (including negligence)."
I always thought that these notices are very odd. I mean, can I put up a sign that says "In no event shall Esben be responsible for any crime he might do" and expect it to have any effect?
Re:Windows XP Professional license agreement (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, the asshole truckers that carry small rocks without covering up the load think they're accomplishing something by having a notice:
"Stay back 200 ft -- Not responsible for damaged windshields"
Yet they know damn well that they'll be at fault for such damage. Go fig.
I'm guessing it's just an attempt to deceive people into thinking they don't have rights that they really do ... which should probably be illegal.
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Of course not, since that claim would be false. Software maker responsibilities are a different matter. Would you hold the Apache Foundation liable for damages if someone hacks your web server due to security holes in their code? No, as they don't claim or promise responsibility any more than Microsoft or anyone else with
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Of course not, since that claim would be false. Software maker responsibilities are a different matter. Would you hold the Apache Foundation liable for damages if someone hacks your web server due to security holes in their code? No, as they don't claim or promise responsibility any more than Microsoft or anyone else with half a mind do.
But the notice doesn't change anything, does it? Of course, in this country, the maximum damage award I could get would the price of the software :P (there are a few exceptions, but none that matters for software)
My favourite... (Score:2)
Here in New Zealand just about every console/PC game, DVD and CD vendor has decided to refuse product returns due to the "risk" of piracy. I think you can still return a product if it is blatantly defective (i.e., bad media), but otherwise you are out of luck...so it's too bad if the system requirements on the back of the box are outright lies and your machine can't run the game, or if the copy protection doesn't like your DVD drive...
Anyway, there is one retailer (JB HiFi) who have signs all over their gam
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In other news... (Score:4, Informative)
About half of 369 websites selling electronic goods checked in an EU crackdown [eubusiness.com] were found to have exactly these sorts of problems.
Of course, 99% of those websites weren't run by Apple, so they don't get singled out in the press. Fair do's I guess - 99% of companies don't get every product launch reported by the BBC, either.
The EU "distance selling" regulations (which include the UK) are fairly tight and comparatively recent.
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Did’t you know that since the 14th, the head of all Slashdot editors will explode, if they don’t release at least one Apple article on average?
Seriously! Check for yourself:
http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=apple [slashdot.org]
http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=iphone [slashdot.org]
My guess is that it’s some “better bad news than no news” viral advertisement deal.
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Yes, /. is required to make sure that other websites have articles about apple that can be linked to and summarised on /. at least once for a viral advertisement deal. I assume because apple can't afford television or radio or internet or mall kiosk or email commercials and really just wants to the word out about how locked down, worthless, anti-consumer they are.
Tinfoil hat much?
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Which one? (Score:1)
plain or intelligible language
Which one is it? Do you get to choose whether it is plain or intelligible?
Re:But do they... (Score:4, Insightful)
One blog. Two cases. Everything links back to the one blog. I think we've just promoted another molehill up to mountain status.
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Allow you to be a smoker and still get your iCrap serviced under warranty?
Here's Apple, trying to save everybody from lung cancer and all I see are complaints!
If you won't think of the children then Apple have to!
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Allow you to be a smoker and still get your iCrap serviced under warranty?
Probably not if the cause of the fault is that it is gunked up with foul-smelling tar. Go read the fine print in every warranty under the sun about not covering neglect or misuse.
Has anybody asked Dell, HP, Sony etc. what they would do in these circumstances? Thought not.
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And you wonder why Apple users start to get an attitude? It's because we've been suffering dolt-ish comments like this for so long.
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And you wonder why Apple users start to get an attitude? It's because we've been suffering dolt-ish comments like this for so long.
I thought it was because you were broke...
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I thought it was because they just hated the way Adam Lambert is being treated so unfairly by the celebrity media.
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What's wrong with Greco-Roman wrestling?
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Says Mr. "hot soldering iron".
Uh huh.
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My degree is in electronics. :) By the way, what IS Greco-Roman wrestling?
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And you wonder why Apple users start to get an attitude? It's because we've been suffering dolt-ish comments like this for so long.
Love the way your whining reeks of seeing yourself as a member of a persecuted minority group instead of someone who bought a damn computer made by a particular company. The attitude of over-important, self-consciously "minority" tosspots like you is as much a part of perpetuating the "dolt-ish comments", regardless of who started them.
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You're just *starting* to get an attitude ?
Why does that really scare me ?
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"it is just that the usee misunderstands"
Actually, I think Apple is the usee and the purchaser of said products would be the user. :-)
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TFTFY :-P
Wrong (Score:3, Informative)
That's not "standard practice" in the UK for the sale of goods. We have an entire "sale of goods act" outlining a customer's rights, for example that a contract is final and binding once money has changed hands, that a seller has specific undisclaimable responsibilities with regards to the quality of goods (a kind of super-warranty) and so on. Apple is being held to the same standard as everyone else.
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They work fine right up until they start to fall apart.
Just like the rest of the universe.