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Cue the linux trolls. (Score:2, Funny)
We know this has nothing at all to do with Linux or OS X, but this has never stopped this jolly crowd from doing "granny attacks", lunging from under their stones, when the topic is related to Apple. Set forth, gentleboys!
Re:Cue the linux trolls. (Score:4, Funny)
Hurr durr, I am linux troll. I was written by Linus Trollwards.
I'm sorry, but before you go any further - are you a GPLv2 troll, or a GPLv3 troll?
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HDMI? (Score:5, Interesting)
What happened to HDMI? Lots of monitors and computers already have it, it supports audio over the connection (Mini-DP doesn't), and it can support the resolutions the article mentions. There's even already a mini version of it in use. It's a standard in home video and had plenty of adoption with computers. Is there something that Mini-DP does that HDMI doesn't?
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Re:HDMI? (Score:5, Insightful)
IIRC, HDMI's signaling is basically a single DVI link, and isn't rated to push anything past 1920x1200. Pretty much anything higher requires a dual-link DVI connection, which involves more complex cabling and signal routing on the board.
DisplayPort is a much smaller connector and has an overall smaller PCB footprint, as well as using a thinner cable. I suspect that if Intel doesn't manage to run it by the wayside in a year's time with Lights Peak, you -might- see video cards with combination Mini DisplayPort + HDMI outputs.
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Re:HDMI? (Score:4, Informative)
Don't the newer specs of HDMI exceed 1920x1200?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi#Version_Comparison [wikipedia.org]
And according to the same article (maybe I should read more before posting) DP is actually royalty free whereas HDMI isn't...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi#Relationship_with_DisplayPort [wikipedia.org]
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There is also a dual-link version of HDMI with a different connector. With the double bandwith it is basically equivalent to quad-DVI. Again, nothing really uses it.
Re:HDMI? (Score:5, Informative)
HDMI's signaling is basically a single DVI link, and isn't rated to push anything past 1920x1200
And just to complete the thought: the Mini DiplayPort goes to 2560x1600 and goes up to 8.64 Gbits/second. That's about twice as fast as the HDMI 1.2.
HDMI 1.3 is actually comparable to Mini DisplayPort, with very similar specifications in terms of bandwidth.
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The problem with any modern connector is licensing. Every time you buy a cable, or a device with {XYZ connector}, some smug bastard gets paid for "inventing" that connector. It's rarely about "what is technically superior", usually it's "what's the cheapest standard we can shove down people's throats".
Licensing is why today's computers have umpteen slow inefficient USB ports, and zero or one Firewire ports. Apple fucked that one up by charging $20 or so per Firewire device for the longest time, they only
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Apple fucked that one up by charging $20 or so per Firewire device for the longest time
Actually, it was $1 per controller. With USB being pushed for replacing keyboards and mice, you couldn't build a computer without USB and expect it to sell, but you could build one without FireWire. If you'd wanted to build FireWire keyboards and mice, you'd have needed a controller (including the $1 license fee, plus the cost of the controller silicon) in each one, which would have made them much more expensive ($1 is a lot on a device that costs $1-2 to make).
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I know Apple's laptops don't currently send audio over Mini-DP, but I thought the protocol/cable supported audio, even if Apple isn't using it.
Am I just wrong?
Re:HDMI? (Score:4, Informative)
Audio is an optional component in mini-DisplayPort.
I presume that supporting audio would be done in the display output controller, so within the graphical portion of the computer (integrated within the 9400M, or discrete GPU). Maybe NVIDIA products don't support audio over DP themselves, or more likely Apple hasn't done the drivers to copy audio to the GPU from the audio controller for output via DP?
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Re:HDMI? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:HDMI? (Score:4, Informative)
...it supports audio over the connection (Mini-DP doesn't)...
Actually the DisplayPort (and now Mini DisplayPort) standard DOES support audio, it's simply that Apple's DisplayPort offerings are not taking advantage of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort [wikipedia.org]
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Huh? I have an iMac connected to a 24" Cinema over Mini-DP and it does sound, is it some black magic from Apple that makes it work?
Re:HDMI? (Score:4, Informative)
What happened to HDMI?
It was made long before DisplayPort as a DVI replacement. HDMI requires royalties and licensing (DP does not). It is also using a CRT-like raster scan and needs a heartbeat, with sound being transmitted during "blanking" (DP transmits data packets and has an embedded clock). Finally, the hardware is more expensive to produce and more complex.
I'm sure someone knows more - this is what I remember reading some time ago...
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Finally, the hardware is more expensive to produce and more complex.
Except that if you want backwards compatibility with DVI then you already have all of that hardware. If you want to be able to plug in a DP to DVI adaptor then you need all of that hardware plus all of the DisplayPort electronics.
It's a more modern standard, but historically more modern standards that aren't designed with legacy compatibility in mind have not done well. Maybe DisplayPort will get enough backing to buck that trend, but in the meantime expect a horrible mess of analogue VGA, HDMI/DVI, a
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Do you mean a VGA port, or electrical VGA signalling support? If you mean the former, possibly not. If you mean the latter, then the answer is 'definitely yes'. I've only ever seen a couple of graphics cards that only support DVI-D and not DVI-I, which contains a VGA signal embedded in the DVI signal (and can be converted to a VGA signal with a trivial adaptor that just connects some of the DVI pins to VGA pins).
SATA was designed to be identical in software to IDE, so an OS with IDE support could run
Re:HDMI? (Score:4, Informative)
it supports audio over the connection (Mini-DP doesn't),
Display port does support audio. I don't know if its actually implemented anywhere though. Are you sure mini-DP doesn't?
Is there something that Mini-DP does that HDMI doesn't?
At the electrical level they work quite differently and displayport is much more better suited for certain tasks like embedded applications, laptop screens, etc. Its like SATA vs PATA in some respects with displayport being SATA. It can use fewer wires.
Displayport is also license free, while HDMI requires a license. That, of course, makes displayport a bit cheaper.
Overall displayport is the superior technology in nearly every respect. But HDMI was out first and is the more established one. If displayport had been out of the gate first, hdmi wouldn't exist.
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Re:HDMI? (Score:5, Informative)
HDMI is basically a single link DVI signal along with a digital audio stream. Both the audio and video gets their own pins and wires. But display port is a packet based system so audo, video and other signals can be multiplexed across the same set of wires. Display port 1.1 allows for eight 24 bit 192kHz digital audio channels. There can be 1, 2 or 4 digital lanes, similar to how PCI express works, more lanes = more bandwidth. The maximum bandwidth is over 8Gbps (3 meter cable limit)and there is also a 1mbps aux channel. A single display port cable can deliver a 2560x1600 60 Hz 30 bpp video signal. Dual link DVI port can do the same but it cant scale as well as display port will.
The HDMI connector is mechanically flimsy and can be easily damaged by the heavy shielded cables that hang from them of if yanked on. Display port is designed for those heavy cables and resists tugging and pulling that would otherwise damage an HDMI connector. Its also screw-less connector so no more fiddling with thumb screws.
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Re:HDMI? (Score:4, Informative)
HDMI is basically a single link DVI signal along with a digital audio stream. Both the audio and video gets their own pins and wires. But display port is a packet based system so audo, video and other signals can be multiplexed across the same set of wires.
DVI, HDMI, and DP are all packet based systems. DVI and HDMI have three lanes (DVI-DL has six) and DP has four lanes. All of them send all data over all lanes. There is no specialization of the data channels.
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HDMI doesn't work (Score:4, Interesting)
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So the if you want to use this connector in your devices then you give Apple the right to infringe any patent that you might have? So by contributing this Apple is basically buying the right to any implementor's patents, correct?
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Well, it 'can' be voided, but it is not necessarily voided.
Realistically, this won't stop any company with a serious case against Apple. Yes, Apple could use it as an excuse to pull the Display Port licence, but I can guarantee that the company would keep using it and that it would just get added to the lawsuit. And then if Apple loses they have to pay for the original infraction as well as a bunch of extra damages for trying to be dicks about the Display Port licence plus potentially losing control of the
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it's like open source, if you want a lot of code that has been tested to work then you have to give something back as well
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Nope. DisplayPort supports both HDCP and the stronger AES based DPCP.
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Mac users want that distinctive green, blue or pink tint that only an Apple dongle can give you when they hook up to a standard projector.
Sounds like you don't know how to properly attach a connector.
-jcr
Meh (Score:3, Funny)
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Re:I hope it catches on (Score:5, Funny)
DVI connectors are clunky and have that 18th century finger destroying screw-on mechanism. Anything with screws on computers should be abolished for good.
Typical response from you so-called "computer user" kids these days. Back in my day, everything had screws! From the case to the cards to the plugs and sometimes the boxes everything came in! And our fingers were perfectly good enough for the job! Even the ones that weren't thumbscrews! Any one of the old-timers could grind your mabmly-pambly little soft, precious, pampered thumbs to dust, bones and all, with nothing but our bare fingers, and we wouldn't even flinch!
Now get off my lawn! Durn whippersnappers...
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I know of a support call where the customer tried to install a Microchannel card without a screwdriver or even removing the PS/2 cover. They tried to shove it in through the back where the bracket blank was. I guess they somehow thought it was like a Cardbus device. That took a while to resolve because initially the customer simply said "your card does not fit".
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Re:I hope it catches on (Score:4, Insightful)
Agree fully. I still drop my jaw everytime I see a laptop from the past 3-4 years still sporting a friggin' VGA connector, or even worse, from some "PC" manufacturers, a parallel port.
Sadly, there will always be that crowd of conservative oddballs and anal retentives, barking like old dogs refusing to learn how to sit, for keeping old standards, trying to justify it by reasons of pointless, smelly compatibility that is long past its expiry date.....and everyone knows they are the ones who contribute to nothing but stagnation, not the ones who help driving the world forward.
Yeah, just like people using serial ports to program Cisco gear or people in EE using serial ports to program microcontrollers by plugging the RX and TX pins directly to a serial port. And what about those people presenting their research at conferences around the world wanting to use a display connector that's supported on every single projector around the world in all convention centres instead of carrying a suitcase of adapters. We all know those aren't the people who help drive the world forwards, right?
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Re:I hope it catches on (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea is that the new standard goes on the laptop, and from that nicely small connector, you can adapt to any standard, including new ones with much higher capacity.
Want a VGA adapter? Done. Want ah DVI adapter? Done. Each $30 at the Apple Store, and soon probably cheaper elsewhere. Other adapters possible. More capacity in the standard, for other folks who want to hook up to something else. Small connection to help keep your laptop small.
The only reason you actually need an ungainly VGA connector on your laptop is if you either refuse to pay $30 for an adapter, or you expect that you might lose the adapter yet still have your laptop for that super-important presentation.
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Re:I hope it catches on (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure. The 95% of the time that I carry my laptop for my own use only, I have a slimmer machine that I throw in my backpack. That's convenient.
When I might make a presentation, I can throw in a small cable and I have full-sized VGA. Another small cable gives me full-sized DVI. Other cables will come that provide other standards/sizes.
When I'm going to a conference where I will make a presentation, I'll have my big laptop bag with all of those connectors, and I'll have a USB stick with my presentations on it, and a DVD, too, burned in PDF as a lowest-common-denominator.
Lugging around a laptop with a VGA (which size) port and also a DVI (which size) port on it all the time is inconvenient.
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Re:I hope it catches on (Score:4, Insightful)
I guess you have never used jtag.
It's very easy to create a simple device to reflash firmware via a parallel port.
For example adding the codes to your hardware to a one for all universal remote.
Or recovering from a failed flash of some firmware.
It can be quite difficult to recreate a fully working parallel port via usb.
Another fun thing is to use the data lines for I/o controlling what ever you want.
I don't expect many people to appreciate the uses of the parallel and serial ports but on slashdot ? ...
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What's wrong with having a VGA output? Many older projectors and monitors, which are still perfectly functional and don't need to be replaced, use VGA. Why force people to buy a new monitor and a new projector just because they got a new laptop/PC?
Old technology takes a long time to become obsolete because most people don't want to replace their computer, monitor, projector, cd player, dvd player, vcr, or what have you, every two years. And most people don't have that kind of money, either.
Re:I hope it catches on (Score:5, Informative)
What's wrong with having a VGA output? Many older projectors and monitors, which are still perfectly functional and don't need to be replaced, use VGA. Why force people to buy a new monitor and a new projector just because they got a new laptop/PC?
Let me introduce you to a new concept - an adapter cable [amazon.com]. They cost 20 or 30 bucks at most, and are available for older display technologies and with either male or female style vga/dvi/whatever connectors.
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Adapter (Score:3, Informative)
If only it were as simple as getting one adapter cable. John Graham-Cumming explains the situation -- with the recent proliferation of standards, you need a bundle [jgc.org] of adapters to handle all the combinations.
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Let me give you a history lesson. For a while there, Apple used to provide industry-standard display ports on their computers. They even included DVI to VGA adapters for people with "older" technologies. Then they started slapping this new port on their laptops. So now I can no longer plug a monitor directly into the computer. I have to attach an adapter to it. An adapter I have to carry around and keep track of. And I have to buy separate VGA and DVI adapters because apple's DVI adapter is digital-o
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You know, one of the best mice I own was hooked up to a parallel port. When that went away I had to get a parallel to serial port adapter. Then that became uncommon, and I had to get a serial port to DIN adapter. Then a DIN to PS/2 connector. Then a PS/2 to USB connector.
Granted, I have hook it up to four adapters, but gosh darn it, I'm too stubborn to buy one of those newfangled mice.
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Re:I hope it catches on (Score:5, Insightful)
Why force people to buy a new monitor and a new projector just because they got a new laptop/PC?
What? There's no need to buy a new monitor or projector. DVI/DisplayPort will drive a VGA device without any problems at all. But the reverse is not true. It really is bizarre that they still make laptops with just VGA output, when the digital alternatives offer VGA and more, with smaller connectors.
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What? There's no need to buy a new monitor or projector. DVI/DisplayPort will drive a VGA device without any problems at all. But the reverse is not true. It really is bizarre that they still make laptops with just VGA output, when the digital alternatives offer VGA and more, with smaller connectors.
This is only true for DVI-I (Integrated) ports. DVI-D (Digital) doesn't have the VGA (analog) output. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface [wikipedia.org] for details
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The adapters are fine, software-wise, if you use Linux or another OS with a generic USB-to-serial driver. They're a bit hit-and-miss in Windows, but you probably don't care about that anyway.
It's just not reasonable to carry around a USB-to-serial plus serial-to-RJ45 for the various vendors. Why can't they agree on a serial-over-RJ45 standard anyway? But that's a different rant. Anyway, always having to juggle two cables is too inconvenient and time-wasting. I'm definitely not getting rid of a real serial p
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Since I have not needed one, I have not shopped.
However, 30 seconds of Google and I found 2 serial and 1 parallel in a single PCIe card: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001TH78QC [amazon.com]
Amazon also has them in ExpressCard formats. Need me to do any other shopping for you? :)
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Actually I'd use a USB attached one, personally. I have a few and they're quite handy.