Etienne Steward writes "Turns out that while a few fortunes can be made with Apple, Steve Demeter made most of his money by buying Palm (of all companies) at $1.76 and selling at $12. Apparently, there aren't as many iPhone App millionaires as we would like to be believe. From the article: 'In almost a dozen interviews conducted by NEWSWEEK, Apple consultants and programmers jettison the idea that the App Store is a world of easy opportunity, or a fast track to quitting the rat race. Instead they describe an anxiety-wracked marketplace full of bewildering rules, long odds, and little sense of control over one's success or failure. "It's kind of a crapshoot," says Demeter, who spent the last two weekends partying in Las Vegas and New York. "I think we've reached a point where people are thinking I shouldn't quit my day job for this."'"
Perhaps if he wants to be successful, he shouldn't spend his weekends "partying in Las Vegas and New York" and instead spend it on development and marketing. I've heard a wacky rumor that can help.
Perhaps he's already successful and prefers to *spend* the money he's already got rather than making even more for e-peen purposes. That'd explain why he's being cited in Slashdot and Apple's website, too.
Hell, as much as I dislike the concept of "partying", I believe the world would be a much better place if successful enterpreneurs were as him, rather than succumbing to their greed and small dicks.
As much as I occasionally feel like slashdot sucks or isn't what it used to be, when I see a post like this one, I fondly remember why I spend so many hours reading here.
And well, he was quite successful (like the article says in right the beginning)
Two years ago, the 30-year-old computer programmer became one of the first people to sell his product—a puzzle game called Trism—through Apple's App Store, a virtual marketplace where third-party software developers connect with customers wanting downloads for their iPhones. He pulled in $250,000 in just two months and quit his job writing code for ATMs. Demeter's success caught the eye of Apple's public-relations team, which profiled him in an inspirational video at Apple.com and gave him a shout out at its June 2009 World Wide Developers' Conference (WWDC). Media hailed the San Francisco resident an "App Store Millionaire" who would never have to work again—a happy financial reality that Demeter confirms. "Nine-to-five is no longer a concept for me," he tells NEWSWEEK.
Which seems quite successful for me. He then used the income to buy Palm stocks at low price and selling at high. He didn't specify how much he got out of it, but I guess it's enough to spend a few weekends partying in Las Vegas and New York.
I am somebody who invests and trades the market. These days I work at a hedge fund. Want to know my return? I have made on average 25% per anum for the past 5 years.
Easy claim to make. I am somebody who invests and trades the market. These days I sit in a lounge chair on the beach. I have averaged over 5000% return per anum for the past 5 years.
Seriously, though... break it down by years for us. There has not been a single fund that has returned 200% over the last five years (which is what you are claiming -- 1.25^5 == 3.05). If that's really the return you've made over the last five years, then I know some people who will want to talk with you about opportunities. Especially considering hedge funds averaged losses in the teens last year, with young funds having a stdev of about 6.5% (from an category-leading loss of only 11%).
Your numbers are too good to be true, quite honestly, unless you are taking the same kind of single-asset high-risk positions that you are complaining about.
blockquote>How am I doing this year? As of 22:00 CET today, I am up 29% from Jan 2008! So in other words with the S&P at 1367 on Jan 2008, you would be at 1763, or out performing the S&P market by 60%! Don't even ask how much I am making this year.
This is a banner year for hedge funds, best in over a decade. And your "how am I doing this year" starts in Jan 08? Huh? Should start in Jan 09.
At any rate, I really doubt your numbers. No one has had consistent returns like that over the past five years. Are you weighting by amount invested, by chance? Because then your losses appear smaller, due to the hemmorhaging of cash from hedge funds last year.
I am somebody who invests and trades the market. These days I work at a hedge fund. Want to know my return?
Let me stop you right there.....NO! I don't want to know. Any insight you might have on the subject was completely lost on me the second you turned it into a penis measuring contest.
Whats next? My money tree won't grow?? Come on people, there are very very few "easy ways to get rich", and the few ways that do exist typically involve f'n over everyone else, and you ending up in jail at some point.
True. Most get-rich-quick schemes won't get you rich.
Just think about the economics of the thing. When there's some get-rich-quick bandwagon that everyone is jumping on, it's going to quickly turn into a highly competitive situation due to everyone jumping on the bandwagon, and opportunities will become limited. Or if it doesn't becomes competitive and opportunities don't become limited, that means your in the middle of an economic bubble. Sell what you can while the bubble is big, and you might not lose your shirt when it bursts.
Speak for yourself pal. I am waiting for my "Google Money Tree" kit that I just ordered online! It was even free!* I am on my way to easy riches! What? You are skeptical?! A Mom from [insert geographic location here] just made [insert some amount between $2k and $3k here] last week! If it worked for her, it'll work for everyone!
SirWired
*Free period lasts for 4.2749 days, and must be canceled via papyrus sent via carrier pigeon to avoid monthly charges of [insert credit limit here.]
"Maybe you're the one who should research Bill Gates. He may have spent a lot of time on Microsoft, but he was rich before he started--he had a million dollar a year trust fund when he went to Harvard. He was born into money."***
***citation required
bill gates bio [famousentrepreneur.info]: "According to the 1992 biography Hard Drive, Maxwell set up a million-dollar trust fund for Gates the year he was born. Gates commented on this claim in a 1994 interview with Playboy:
PLAYBOY: Did you have a million-dollar trust fund while you were at Harvard?
GATES: Not true. . . . . My parents are very successful, and I went to the nicest private school in the Seattle area. I was lucky. But I never had any trust funds of any kind, though my dad did pay my tuition at Harvard, which was quite expensive."
there you have it from the horses mouth: no trust fund.
William Henry "Bill" Gates III [wikipedia.org] "his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president."
He might not have had the money in a trust fund but there's someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth if ever I saw one.
No more than Andrew Carnegie, or John Rockefeller. These weren't great or particularly cutthroat men, but instead lucky men. Thousands of people could have been in their places and done the same thing, and the same principle applies to most famous people throughout history. The problem is that we imagine there's some reason to it: that if we just think harder, network more, or spend a few more hours in the lab, we'll be successful too. That's bullshit. It's luck. (And increas
That's bullshit. It's luck. (And increasingly these days, the luck of having been born into the correct socioeconomic stratum.) The best we can do is to pursue opportunities to the utmost when they do appear and make the most of the luck we get in life.
Your statement reminded me of one of my favorite quotes.
I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. -- Thomas Jefferson
"...but instead lucky men. Thousands of people could have been in their places and done the same thing..."
And thousands WERE in their place, and did not. How many people were in the homebrew computer scene at the time? How many dinked around and wrote their own versions of BASIC? How many started their own companies? How many succeeded? How many had the same exact background and opportunities... and did nothing?
Attributing such to "luck" translates into refusing to take responsibility for your own actions and your own choices. "It's not me, it's luck." "Joe got the promotion and not me, the lucky bastard." And so on, and so on.
Many people have been at the helm of Apple, and only one has driven it to success. Twice. Is that luck? Would just anyone have made the same choices? Would just anyone have had the same insights? Would just anyone have the same vision and commitment and drive?
"...if we just think harder, network more, or spend a few more hours in the lab, we'll be successful too. That's bullshit."
Really? Perhaps someone should have mentioned that to Edison? Who definitely made a success out of spending just a "few more hours in the lab".
"The best we can do is to pursue opportunities to the utmost when they do appear and make the most of the luck we get in life."
No, the best you can do is to create your own opportunities, and leave luck, chance, and the vagarities of fate out of the equation altogether.
But you're not capable of believing that, are you? So go home after work, why don't you? Go home and sit on the couch, or go down to the corner bar. Have a beer, and bitch and moan and complain about how "unlucky" you are. And definitely don't try to "do" anything about it. That's too hard, and with your luck, why bother?
Actually, you're half right. For you, it is luck, because in this case the prophecy is definitely self-fullfilling.
Certainly Bill Gates made the most of his opportunities and there was certainly a very large element of hard work and personal ambition there.
That said, if he'd been born a few years later or probably even a few years earlier, or done almost anything differently in his life he wouldn't have been there to have the opportunities he took advantage of. Hard work is definitely important. Being able to see your opportunities and take advantage of them is important. A certain degree of ruthlessness is also importa
And thousands WERE in their place, and did not. How many people were in the homebrew computer scene at the time? How many dinked around and wrote their own versions of BASIC? How many started their own companies? How many succeeded? How many had the same exact background and opportunities... and did nothing?
None. No two people have the same experiences and opportunities.
There are things beyond your control that have to fall into place for you to become wildly successful. That is what people call luck. Yeah hard work is usually also required, at least at the start.
Attributing such to "luck" translates into refusing to take responsibility for your own actions and your own choices. "It's not me, it's luck." "Joe got the promotion and not me, the lucky bastard." And so on, and so on.
It just may be that Joe has a quality or did something that you could not have. That's called being a realist, not refusing to take responsibility. Using such circumstances as an excuse not to make an effort to try make the most of the opportunities that come your way is refusing to take responsibility.
Many people have been at the helm of Apple, and only one has driven it to success. Twice. Is that luck?
No it's marketing.
Would just anyone have made the same choices? Would just anyone have had the same insights? Would just anyone have the same vision and commitment and drive?
Now you're just playing hero worshiper. If you think it was raw "vision and commitment and drive" with no fortunate circumstance that made Jobs rich you're living in a fantasy world.
Really? Perhaps someone should have mentioned that to Edison? Who definitely made a success out of spending just a "few more hours in the lab".
Lots of people spend all their lives working in a lab or at a computer and don't make it. It's not JUST the time and effort that got Edison anywhere. He had aptitude in a number of areas that most people don't.
But you're not capable of believing that, are you? So go home after work, why don't you? Go home and sit on the couch, or go down to the corner bar. Have a beer, and bitch and moan and complain about how "unlucky" you are. And definitely don't try to "do" anything about it. That's too hard, and with your luck, why bother?
Do you know anything at all about what the GP does in his spare time? Or indeed if he even has any? Do you have a family? Children? Spending all your time at work and neglecting them while persuing some foolish dream of fame and fortune isn't the way to go.
Actually, you're half right. For you, it is luck, because in this case the prophecy is definitely self-fullfilling.
When someone wants to insult you they call it "self-fulfilling prophecy". When they want to praise you they call it "foresight" or "being a realist"
You keep on telling yourself there's no such thing as luck. Keep working yourself into the ground doing things that aren't likely to make you rich or famous. It changes nothing. Certainly not your wealth.
you are right.... it takes balls to go through with the necessary ruthlessness that Gates engaged in.
He knew how to play dumb when he needed to. He knew how to say the right things to people to get them to listen. He knew the price points at which people would sell their mothers.
Digital pissing IBM off: Luck gates learning about it: Luck Gates going to IBM and selling them a product they didn't have: Balls Gates buying Dos for next to nothing, knowing what he would get from IBM: Ruthlessness and Balls IBM being
My iPhone farting application is way better than all the other farting applications, and yet I've only had 3 downloads so far! Sure, my application costs 2 bucks more than anyone else's, but it has the largest selection of flatulence noises in the business, and the ads are very unobtrusive. I really don't understand why I'm not a bazillionaire by now. Seriously, this thing took me 3 hours to write, and I want my damn money!
It may have only taken a few hours to write, but can you digitaly remix new farts into the system, use auto-tune and create a #1 summer jam?
Theres an app for that.
That's obvious - ads for beans.. because if you need your phone to do it for you, you're not producing enough gas!
On a related note, my three-year-old daughter absolutely loves it when someone around her farts, so I started the "pull my finger" bit with her.
The other day, she comes up to me and asks "Dad, I wanna pull your finger!" So I let her pull my finger, and when nothing happened, she looked quizzically at me and said "Hey! Where's the fart!?!?!"
Later she asked me to pull her finger, and when she didn't fart, she had the same reaction.. "Hey! Where's the fart!?!?!"
My wife is somewhat less than thrilled at the whole affair.
by Anonymous Coward
on Wednesday October 14, @04:00PM (#29749913)
It's definitely not easy to even earn a little money on the App Store with just a good game, much less get rich. I am the developer of a game on the App Store and have not been paid a single cent from Apple yet. The game is highly polished and has great written reviews and even good reviews from professional sites. It's only $0.99 to $1.99 (depending on sales). We've had a few hundred sales since the beginning of the year. Apple only pays if you break $250 for each region, not for all regions combined, so they keep what little we've earned indefinitely unless we make more sales. I'm not going to whore the product out by mentioning it here; I just want to get the message out that this is what's up with the App Store to other potential developers. I logged over 500 hours developing that game and haven't received anything for it. So not only is it entirely possible you won't achieve success, but you might waste a lot of time and resources in the process. The process of getting any information from Apple was miserable, and they treat developers like shit. I used to have a lot of faith in Apple's good will and have been a long-time Mac head, but after this experience, I'll still buy Macs, but I will NEVER do any other kinds of business with them again.
It is because Developers are afraid of Apple and as the only channel is "app store" for non hacked iPhones, Apple can make one's life real miserable if they want to.
Expect many AC developers talking real stuff but they have to stay anonymous. Hell, I even warned one friend to "stay low profile at least until app approved" myself.
Of course, if Application/Game can be released for Nokia touch phones at least which sells millions with some torture of Symbian C++, they would have some kind of power to show to Apple and they would be treated accordingly. That is the game&app developers fault. So, Nokia dev tools aren't classy/trendy as Apple... So what really? Ship it, if Handango/Ovi gets more share, put $5 price tag... Let user decide. At least Nokia won't say "You duplicated (coded better) my functionality". Look at the success stories like Opera Mini, IM clients, media players etc.
by Anonymous Coward
on Wednesday October 14, @08:03PM (#29752139)
It is because Developers are afraid of Apple and as the only channel is "app store" for non hacked iPhones, Apple can make one's life real miserable if they want to.
I'm the AC. Yes, Apple is one reason. Another is that I have friends in the industry and they can be hurt by association with me bitching about Apple publicly. But two more reasons: 1) If I want to do contract work developing for someone else, I might not want them knowing what kind of sales I've had, if they were dismal, as in this case 2) The product was/is on the other end of a legal battle with a company other than Apple.
"I'm not going to whore the product out by mentioning it here"
There's your problem right there. Thats the difference between being an entrepreneur and and being just a programmer. If your not going to bother to mention your app...why should Apple.
I think my apps are well programmed but suffer from my lack of art skills, which I am attempting to rectify.:) I have a day job as a game programmer, so my iPhone diversions are merely a fun hobby, I'm not really looking to get rich from it.
Actually they've lowered it to $150 per region now. I'm still waiting on my first pay out too. Although if they make the revenue cutoff too low, you'll get killed by bank wire transfer fees (hello bank, why in the #$!@ are you charging me when people put money *in* my account!)
WTF? I mean, never mind the each region bit, even if it was for all regions combined - WTF? That's your money that they're keeping.
So to recap:
* They decide who can write software for the phones you've bought. * They take a whopping 30% cut (I've never heard of such a high cut for this kind of service - most download sites are free). * They don't pay you at all if it doesn't hit $250, and that's done on a per "region" basis.
I've never been an Apple fan, but I had no idea of this.
If we're going to have Apple stories all day long, why don't we hear some actual important news about them, instead of stories like "OMG Apple are so great, you can now access this website On YoUr IpHoNe, no phone could do that before!"
by Anonymous Coward
on Wednesday October 14, @11:04PM (#29753287)
They take a whopping 30% cut (I've never heard of such a high cut for this kind of service - most download sites are free).
You are lying through your teeth or are so far past ignorant that you have no business posting, then.
Apple: 30% commission for hosting, payment processing, customer access Palm: 30% Microsoft: 30% Android: 30% Handango: 40% Verizon VCast store: 30% Blackberry: 30% (recently cut to 20% for some developer accounts) Nokia Ovi: 30%
So in fact, Apple undercut Handango, the biggest prior comparable service. The other app stores have all followed suit with the same commission rates.
They don't pay you at all if it doesn't hit $250, and that's done on a per "region" basis.
All stores have minimums for payout in order to reduce the overhead of fees and payment processing. Payment is done per region because sales are done per region. If you never clear $250 in sales, you will get paid when you close your account. Otherwise, you will only be paid every time you reach $250. If your sales are so low that this interval is several months apart, it is unlikely that it would matter in the first place.
Other stores that only pay out at given market minimums: Google AdSense ($100), Amazon Marketplace (once every two-four weeks), direct credit card processors (most have a minimum of $100/week).
That's your money that they're keeping.
So is your bank. So is your boss, since you only get paid on an interval. Those are the rules you agreed to when you decided to participate.
You obviously have little experience in the business of payment processing and selling through a distributor. This is par for the course. The fees, as demonstrated above, are right in line with the others, the payout minimum is a common practice, and developer membership rules are an integral part of every store, differing only in the qualifications and approval process.
No, you just wanted to bitch about Apple again because simply ignoring the stories you're not interested in is beyond your abilities. Who cares if you like Apple or not? Neither the article nor your misinformed criticism of the store practices singles out anything specific to Apple. TFA capitalized on the name for Internet attention; Slashdot did it for ad revenue; you're doing it because you think the Apple whining is somehow less pathetic than the Apple ass-kissing. Every branded entity has blind fans, but Apple and Microsoft haters are a special breed of sad.
If your app isn't featured or favorited or otherwise supported by a major marketing push, you're doomed.
The little band of freelancers I work with have produce two games. One for ourselves. It was really very good, which bombed at the store. We've sold just a few hundred. We're small, we don't have a marketing budget.
The next game we bade was honestly no very fun. It was okay, not complete crap, but not great. It's been in the top 50 for several weeks.
What's the difference? That second game was done for a Major Developer who was able to spend 20x as much on marketing as development. (No joke.)
And even for them, there's no money in it for them. They're only there to show a success to shareholders and that they're beating the competition in a competitive marketplace. Couldn't have the independent devs getting the top spots, now could they? That'd be embarrassing.
Couldn't have the independent devs getting the top spots, now could they? That'd be embarrassing.
You make it sound like it's their fault that your excellent indie game isn't in the top 50. Why would anyone think that strong marketing isn't needed in a crowded marketplace?
So some idiot gets rich buying stock and we get the startling conclusion that it's not the app store that makes you rich.
Getting rich has always been a combination of sweat, luck and keeping your eyes open for an opportunity. Brilliant reporting, just brilliant.
I actually left my job and write iPhone and Android apps for a living. I haven't had a hit better than top 100, but I still make money. A prolific game developer can earn an honest living on the mobile platforms if they diversify their titles across genres and deliver decent apps. I also make money consulting with marketing firms who are using the iphone as a marketing platform. I made more at a regular job, but I'm happy to give up a little cash for the freedom I now have. In the past decade professional software development has become mundane and more tedium than creative. The iPhone and Android have become creative outlets for me. The app store isn't perfect but it has allowed me to break the chains of cubical bondage. It's not easy though. It takes a lot of balls to escape the systematic chaos of work-a-day life and step out on your own. If and when I re-enter the stupid, pointless, and utterly insane working world, I now have a couple of years worth of Objective-C, mobile platform, and smartphone development experience to put on my cv. Yeah, the app store and Android market aren't millionaire nebula, but they are good for a lot of other reasons.
Both iPhone and Android are great platforms for development. Android is really cool because it's based on Java which is second nature to me at this point. Android also has a very low barrier to entry in that the development stack is free and it only costs $25 to become an "official" developer with checkout rights on the Android Market. The Android devices are feature-rich and generally ok, but not as well designed as the iPhone.
Both support OpenGL ES which is great for graphics applications. Developing on the iPhone is a bit daunting at first because Objective-C has a stiff learning curve that is purely related to its syntactical style, but once you learn Objective-C you'll never want to see C++ again. BTW, you can use C and C++ to build iPhone apps, but it's probably easier in the long run to just spend a few days getting familiar with Objective-C.
The iPhone is a much more closed ecosystem when compared to Android, but that's a necessary evil that supports Apple's business model. Also, the iPhone is a really good device that just oozes design quality. Developing on the Apple platform makes the developer think about design, usability, and quality above features. It's more fun to develop on the iPhone, to me anyway.
Another advantage of the iPhone is the availability of third party, professional tools like Unity (www.unity3d.com) which greatly speed up the development process. XCode is also a fair development tool and it's free with OSX so that's a big plus. I don't think I'll ever pay for something like Visual Studio again at this point. Between Eclipse, Netbeans, and XCode, why pay for an IDE?
Obviously, the biggest con to iPhone development is the app store and the Apple submission process, but once you've been through it a few times you learn the ropes and it becomes easy to get apps published. Still, I make 20x more money on the app store than I do on the Android market, but that may change over time.
It took me three weeks to develop my first app which wasn't very successful but still makes a hundred or so a month worldwide. It took me a couple of months to make my second app which made the top 100 and still sells well in certain regions. Since then I've released over a dozen apps, some globally and some in specific regions and most of them don't make a lot by themselves, but they add up when tallied together. I am starting to see the wave crash a bit and sales have been declining in the last few months, but I suspect they'll go up again after the holiday season when a few million new devices are given as gifts and new users go app crazy.
I wonder how many of those developers are actually releasing though. For instance, I'm a registered developer (I paid my $100), but I did it solely for personal development.
That is, I'm an aerospace engineering grad student doing a lot of estimation and controls work, but mostly on the theory/simulation side -- as such I realized I really should have some experience working with actual hardware. Since my research doesn't provide that opportunity, and I had my phone, which has GPS, accelerometers and magnetometers handy, so I decided to see what I could do with it. Paying the dev fee was probably cheaper than buying custom-purpose hardware.
It's certainly been interesting, and I'm pretty far along in a program that one can attach to a telescope, align against known stars, and then determine where you're pointing afterwards -- but its entirely something I'm doing for me. When its finished (school, another project, and a girl have prevented me from working on it in a while), I'll probably push it on to the app store, sell it for a few bucks on the off chance I'll make the dev fee back, but really, if it makes the difference in me getting a job I want, then thats much more worthwhile to me.
Perhaps (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps if he wants to be successful, he shouldn't spend his weekends "partying in Las Vegas and New York" and instead spend it on development and marketing. I've heard a wacky rumor that can help.
Re:Perhaps (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps he's already successful and prefers to *spend* the money he's already got rather than making even more for e-peen purposes. That'd explain why he's being cited in Slashdot and Apple's website, too.
Hell, as much as I dislike the concept of "partying", I believe the world would be a much better place if successful enterpreneurs were as him, rather than succumbing to their greed and small dicks.
Parent
Re:Perhaps (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as I occasionally feel like slashdot sucks or isn't what it used to be, when I see a post like this one, I fondly remember why I spend so many hours reading here.
Parent
Re:Perhaps (Score:4, Informative)
And well, he was quite successful (like the article says in right the beginning)
Two years ago, the 30-year-old computer programmer became one of the first people to sell his product—a puzzle game called Trism—through Apple's App Store, a virtual marketplace where third-party software developers connect with customers wanting downloads for their iPhones. He pulled in $250,000 in just two months and quit his job writing code for ATMs. Demeter's success caught the eye of Apple's public-relations team, which profiled him in an inspirational video at Apple.com and gave him a shout out at its June 2009 World Wide Developers' Conference (WWDC). Media hailed the San Francisco resident an "App Store Millionaire" who would never have to work again—a happy financial reality that Demeter confirms. "Nine-to-five is no longer a concept for me," he tells NEWSWEEK.
Which seems quite successful for me. He then used the income to buy Palm stocks at low price and selling at high. He didn't specify how much he got out of it, but I guess it's enough to spend a few weekends partying in Las Vegas and New York.
And the app is over two years old.
Parent
Re:Perhaps (Score:4, Insightful)
To be precise:
He WAS an investor, but he sold his investment, made a ton of money, and now he's semi-retired.
You ARE an investor, because you haven't.
When investing, like many other things in this world, it's better to be lucky than smart...
Parent
Re:Perhaps (Score:5, Insightful)
Easy claim to make. I am somebody who invests and trades the market. These days I sit in a lounge chair on the beach. I have averaged over 5000% return per anum for the past 5 years.
Seriously, though... break it down by years for us. There has not been a single fund that has returned 200% over the last five years (which is what you are claiming -- 1.25^5 == 3.05). If that's really the return you've made over the last five years, then I know some people who will want to talk with you about opportunities. Especially considering hedge funds averaged losses in the teens last year, with young funds having a stdev of about 6.5% (from an category-leading loss of only 11%).
Your numbers are too good to be true, quite honestly, unless you are taking the same kind of single-asset high-risk positions that you are complaining about.
blockquote>How am I doing this year? As of 22:00 CET today, I am up 29% from Jan 2008! So in other words with the S&P at 1367 on Jan 2008, you would be at 1763, or out performing the S&P market by 60%! Don't even ask how much I am making this year.
This is a banner year for hedge funds, best in over a decade. And your "how am I doing this year" starts in Jan 08? Huh? Should start in Jan 09.
At any rate, I really doubt your numbers. No one has had consistent returns like that over the past five years. Are you weighting by amount invested, by chance? Because then your losses appear smaller, due to the hemmorhaging of cash from hedge funds last year.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No he is not an investor... HE GOT LUCKY!
I am somebody who invests and trades the market. These days I work at a hedge fund. Want to know my return?
Let me stop you right there.....NO! I don't want to know. Any insight you might have on the subject was completely lost on me the second you turned it into a penis measuring contest.
And common sense prevailed! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:And common sense prevailed! (Score:5, Informative)
Surprise surprise: programming for the iPhone is as lucrative as programming for any other platform.
Parent
Another shocker (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Another shocker (Score:5, Insightful)
True. Most get-rich-quick schemes won't get you rich.
Just think about the economics of the thing. When there's some get-rich-quick bandwagon that everyone is jumping on, it's going to quickly turn into a highly competitive situation due to everyone jumping on the bandwagon, and opportunities will become limited. Or if it doesn't becomes competitive and opportunities don't become limited, that means your in the middle of an economic bubble. Sell what you can while the bubble is big, and you might not lose your shirt when it bursts.
Parent
What about the Google Money Tree?! (Score:5, Funny)
Speak for yourself pal. I am waiting for my "Google Money Tree" kit that I just ordered online! It was even free!* I am on my way to easy riches! What? You are skeptical?! A Mom from [insert geographic location here] just made [insert some amount between $2k and $3k here] last week! If it worked for her, it'll work for everyone!
SirWired
*Free period lasts for 4.2749 days, and must be canceled via papyrus sent via carrier pigeon to avoid monthly charges of [insert credit limit here.]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Another shocker (Score:4, Informative)
***citation required
bill gates bio [famousentrepreneur.info]:
"According to the 1992 biography Hard Drive, Maxwell set up a million-dollar trust fund for Gates the year he was born. Gates commented on this claim in a 1994 interview with Playboy:
PLAYBOY: Did you have a million-dollar trust fund while you were at Harvard?
GATES: Not true. . . . . My parents are very successful, and I went to the nicest private school in the Seattle area. I was lucky. But I never had any trust funds of any kind, though my dad did pay my tuition at Harvard, which was quite expensive."
there you have it from the horses mouth: no trust fund.
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Re:Another shocker (Score:4, Insightful)
William Henry "Bill" Gates III [wikipedia.org] "his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president."
He might not have had the money in a trust fund but there's someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth if ever I saw one.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No more than Andrew Carnegie, or John Rockefeller. These weren't great or particularly cutthroat men, but instead lucky men. Thousands of people could have been in their places and done the same thing, and the same principle applies to most famous people throughout history. The problem is that we imagine there's some reason to it: that if we just think harder, network more, or spend a few more hours in the lab, we'll be successful too. That's bullshit. It's luck. (And increas
Re:Another shocker (Score:5, Insightful)
These weren't great or particularly cutthroat men, but instead lucky men. Thousands of people could have been in their places and done the same thing
I agree with that: out of millions of people, thousands could have done what they did. In other words, you need to be both lucky and good.
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Re:Another shocker (Score:5, Interesting)
That's bullshit. It's luck. (And increasingly these days, the luck of having been born into the correct socioeconomic stratum.) The best we can do is to pursue opportunities to the utmost when they do appear and make the most of the luck we get in life.
Your statement reminded me of one of my favorite quotes.
I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. -- Thomas Jefferson
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Re:Another shocker (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how Thomas Jefferson's slaves would feel about that.
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Re:Another shocker (Score:5, Insightful)
"...but instead lucky men. Thousands of people could have been in their places and done the same thing..."
And thousands WERE in their place, and did not. How many people were in the homebrew computer scene at the time? How many dinked around and wrote their own versions of BASIC? How many started their own companies? How many succeeded? How many had the same exact background and opportunities... and did nothing?
Attributing such to "luck" translates into refusing to take responsibility for your own actions and your own choices. "It's not me, it's luck." "Joe got the promotion and not me, the lucky bastard." And so on, and so on.
Many people have been at the helm of Apple, and only one has driven it to success. Twice. Is that luck? Would just anyone have made the same choices? Would just anyone have had the same insights? Would just anyone have the same vision and commitment and drive?
"...if we just think harder, network more, or spend a few more hours in the lab, we'll be successful too. That's bullshit."
Really? Perhaps someone should have mentioned that to Edison? Who definitely made a success out of spending just a "few more hours in the lab".
"The best we can do is to pursue opportunities to the utmost when they do appear and make the most of the luck we get in life."
No, the best you can do is to create your own opportunities, and leave luck, chance, and the vagarities of fate out of the equation altogether.
But you're not capable of believing that, are you? So go home after work, why don't you? Go home and sit on the couch, or go down to the corner bar. Have a beer, and bitch and moan and complain about how "unlucky" you are. And definitely don't try to "do" anything about it. That's too hard, and with your luck, why bother?
Actually, you're half right. For you, it is luck, because in this case the prophecy is definitely self-fullfilling.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Certainly Bill Gates made the most of his opportunities and there was certainly a very large element of hard work and personal ambition there.
That said, if he'd been born a few years later or probably even a few years earlier, or done almost anything differently in his life he wouldn't have been there to have the opportunities he took advantage of. Hard work is definitely important. Being able to see your opportunities and take advantage of them is important. A certain degree of ruthlessness is also importa
Re:Another shocker (Score:4, Insightful)
And thousands WERE in their place, and did not. How many people were in the homebrew computer scene at the time? How many dinked around and wrote their own versions of BASIC? How many started their own companies? How many succeeded? How many had the same exact background and opportunities... and did nothing?
None. No two people have the same experiences and opportunities.
There are things beyond your control that have to fall into place for you to become wildly successful. That is what people call luck. Yeah hard work is usually also required, at least at the start.
Attributing such to "luck" translates into refusing to take responsibility for your own actions and your own choices. "It's not me, it's luck." "Joe got the promotion and not me, the lucky bastard." And so on, and so on.
It just may be that Joe has a quality or did something that you could not have. That's called being a realist, not refusing to take responsibility. Using such circumstances as an excuse not to make an effort to try make the most of the opportunities that come your way is refusing to take responsibility.
Many people have been at the helm of Apple, and only one has driven it to success. Twice. Is that luck?
No it's marketing.
Would just anyone have made the same choices? Would just anyone have had the same insights? Would just anyone have the same vision and commitment and drive?
Now you're just playing hero worshiper. If you think it was raw "vision and commitment and drive" with no fortunate circumstance that made Jobs rich you're living in a fantasy world.
Really? Perhaps someone should have mentioned that to Edison? Who definitely made a success out of spending just a "few more hours in the lab".
Lots of people spend all their lives working in a lab or at a computer and don't make it. It's not JUST the time and effort that got Edison anywhere. He had aptitude in a number of areas that most people don't.
But you're not capable of believing that, are you? So go home after work, why don't you? Go home and sit on the couch, or go down to the corner bar. Have a beer, and bitch and moan and complain about how "unlucky" you are. And definitely don't try to "do" anything about it. That's too hard, and with your luck, why bother?
Do you know anything at all about what the GP does in his spare time? Or indeed if he even has any? Do you have a family? Children? Spending all your time at work and neglecting them while persuing some foolish dream of fame and fortune isn't the way to go.
Actually, you're half right. For you, it is luck, because in this case the prophecy is definitely self-fullfilling.
When someone wants to insult you they call it "self-fulfilling prophecy". When they want to praise you they call it "foresight" or "being a realist"
You keep on telling yourself there's no such thing as luck. Keep working yourself into the ground doing things that aren't likely to make you rich or famous. It changes nothing. Certainly not your wealth.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
you are right.... it takes balls to go through with the necessary ruthlessness that Gates engaged in.
He knew how to play dumb when he needed to. He knew how to say the right things to people to get them to listen. He knew the price points at which people would sell their mothers.
Digital pissing IBM off: Luck
gates learning about it: Luck
Gates going to IBM and selling them a product they didn't have: Balls
Gates buying Dos for next to nothing, knowing what he would get from IBM: Ruthlessness and Balls
IBM being
The market is unfair! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The market is unfair! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The market is unfair! (Score:4, Funny)
Fart mashups! They are a real gas!
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Heinz Baked Beans (Score:5, Funny)
That's obvious - ads for beans.. because if you need your phone to do it for you, you're not producing enough gas!
On a related note, my three-year-old daughter absolutely loves it when someone around her farts, so I started the "pull my finger" bit with her.
The other day, she comes up to me and asks "Dad, I wanna pull your finger!" So I let her pull my finger, and when nothing happened, she looked quizzically at me and said "Hey! Where's the fart!?!?!"
Later she asked me to pull her finger, and when she didn't fart, she had the same reaction.. "Hey! Where's the fart!?!?!"
My wife is somewhat less than thrilled at the whole affair.
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Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Insightful)
It's definitely not easy to even earn a little money on the App Store with just a good game, much less get rich. I am the developer of a game on the App Store and have not been paid a single cent from Apple yet. The game is highly polished and has great written reviews and even good reviews from professional sites. It's only $0.99 to $1.99 (depending on sales). We've had a few hundred sales since the beginning of the year. Apple only pays if you break $250 for each region, not for all regions combined, so they keep what little we've earned indefinitely unless we make more sales. I'm not going to whore the product out by mentioning it here; I just want to get the message out that this is what's up with the App Store to other potential developers. I logged over 500 hours developing that game and haven't received anything for it. So not only is it entirely possible you won't achieve success, but you might waste a lot of time and resources in the process. The process of getting any information from Apple was miserable, and they treat developers like shit. I used to have a lot of faith in Apple's good will and have been a long-time Mac head, but after this experience, I'll still buy Macs, but I will NEVER do any other kinds of business with them again.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Insightful)
I logged over 500 hours developing that game and haven't received anything for it.
Well... What's it called?
I mean obviously if you don't name drop exactly what the game everywhere no one will buy it ;)
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Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:4, Funny)
See, THERE's the problem ... it it were called "iPhone FLESH-light" it would be selling lik, well, like fleshlights.
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iPhone devs have right to be AC (Score:5, Insightful)
It is because Developers are afraid of Apple and as the only channel is "app store" for non hacked iPhones, Apple can make one's life real miserable if they want to.
Expect many AC developers talking real stuff but they have to stay anonymous. Hell, I even warned one friend to "stay low profile at least until app approved" myself.
Of course, if Application/Game can be released for Nokia touch phones at least which sells millions with some torture of Symbian C++, they would have some kind of power to show to Apple and they would be treated accordingly. That is the game&app developers fault. So, Nokia dev tools aren't classy/trendy as Apple... So what really? Ship it, if Handango/Ovi gets more share, put $5 price tag... Let user decide. At least Nokia won't say "You duplicated (coded better) my functionality". Look at the success stories like Opera Mini, IM clients, media players etc.
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Re:iPhone devs have right to be AC (Score:4, Interesting)
It is because Developers are afraid of Apple and as the only channel is "app store" for non hacked iPhones, Apple can make one's life real miserable if they want to.
I'm the AC. Yes, Apple is one reason. Another is that I have friends in the industry and they can be hurt by association with me bitching about Apple publicly. But two more reasons: 1) If I want to do contract work developing for someone else, I might not want them knowing what kind of sales I've had, if they were dismal, as in this case 2) The product was/is on the other end of a legal battle with a company other than Apple.
So, as Yoda might say: up-the-fuck-I-must-shut.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"I'm not going to whore the product out by mentioning it here"
There's your problem right there. Thats the difference between being an entrepreneur and and being just a programmer. If your not going to bother to mention your app...why should Apple.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Well I'll whore mine then. ;) http://www.rickb.com/iphone [rickb.com]
I think my apps are well programmed but suffer from my lack of art skills, which I am attempting to rectify. :) I have a day job as a game programmer, so my iPhone diversions are merely a fun hobby, I'm not really looking to get rich from it.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Informative)
Actually they've lowered it to $150 per region now. I'm still waiting on my first pay out too. Although if they make the revenue cutoff too low, you'll get killed by bank wire transfer fees (hello bank, why in the #$!@ are you charging me when people put money *in* my account!)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple only pays if you break $250 for each region, not for all regions combined
That's evil. This sounds like one of PayPal.com's schemes to boost ledger numbers by locking up other peoples' money.
Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple only pays if you break $250 for each region
WTF? I mean, never mind the each region bit, even if it was for all regions combined - WTF? That's your money that they're keeping.
So to recap:
* They decide who can write software for the phones you've bought.
* They take a whopping 30% cut (I've never heard of such a high cut for this kind of service - most download sites are free).
* They don't pay you at all if it doesn't hit $250, and that's done on a per "region" basis.
I've never been an Apple fan, but I had no idea of this.
If we're going to have Apple stories all day long, why don't we hear some actual important news about them, instead of stories like "OMG Apple are so great, you can now access this website On YoUr IpHoNe, no phone could do that before!"
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Re:Anonymous Coward (Score:4, Informative)
They take a whopping 30% cut (I've never heard of such a high cut for this kind of service - most download sites are free).
You are lying through your teeth or are so far past ignorant that you have no business posting, then.
Apple: 30% commission for hosting, payment processing, customer access
Palm: 30%
Microsoft: 30%
Android: 30%
Handango: 40%
Verizon VCast store: 30%
Blackberry: 30% (recently cut to 20% for some developer accounts)
Nokia Ovi: 30%
So in fact, Apple undercut Handango, the biggest prior comparable service. The other app stores have all followed suit with the same commission rates.
They don't pay you at all if it doesn't hit $250, and that's done on a per "region" basis.
All stores have minimums for payout in order to reduce the overhead of fees and payment processing. Payment is done per region because sales are done per region. If you never clear $250 in sales, you will get paid when you close your account. Otherwise, you will only be paid every time you reach $250. If your sales are so low that this interval is several months apart, it is unlikely that it would matter in the first place.
Other stores that only pay out at given market minimums: Google AdSense ($100), Amazon Marketplace (once every two-four weeks), direct credit card processors (most have a minimum of $100/week).
That's your money that they're keeping.
So is your bank. So is your boss, since you only get paid on an interval. Those are the rules you agreed to when you decided to participate.
You obviously have little experience in the business of payment processing and selling through a distributor. This is par for the course. The fees, as demonstrated above, are right in line with the others, the payout minimum is a common practice, and developer membership rules are an integral part of every store, differing only in the qualifications and approval process.
No, you just wanted to bitch about Apple again because simply ignoring the stories you're not interested in is beyond your abilities. Who cares if you like Apple or not? Neither the article nor your misinformed criticism of the store practices singles out anything specific to Apple. TFA capitalized on the name for Internet attention; Slashdot did it for ad revenue; you're doing it because you think the Apple whining is somehow less pathetic than the Apple ass-kissing. Every branded entity has blind fans, but Apple and Microsoft haters are a special breed of sad.
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iPhone devs learn a lesson from musicians (Score:4, Insightful)
And the lesson is, "just because you have a distribution network with the potential to reach millions of users, you'll still probably sell fuckall."
Welcome to the real world, iPhone devs.
So running your own business making apps (Score:3, Insightful)
is like running your own business. Shocking~
The road to richess passes through Marketing (Score:4, Interesting)
If your app isn't featured or favorited or otherwise supported by a major marketing push, you're doomed.
The little band of freelancers I work with have produce two games. One for ourselves. It was really very good, which bombed at the store. We've sold just a few hundred. We're small, we don't have a marketing budget.
The next game we bade was honestly no very fun. It was okay, not complete crap, but not great. It's been in the top 50 for several weeks.
What's the difference? That second game was done for a Major Developer who was able to spend 20x as much on marketing as development. (No joke.)
And even for them, there's no money in it for them. They're only there to show a success to shareholders and that they're beating the competition in a competitive marketplace. Couldn't have the independent devs getting the top spots, now could they? That'd be embarrassing.
Re:The road to richess passes through Marketing (Score:5, Insightful)
Couldn't have the independent devs getting the top spots, now could they? That'd be embarrassing.
You make it sound like it's their fault that your excellent indie game isn't in the top 50. Why would anyone think that strong marketing isn't needed in a crowded marketplace?
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Good point, I should have submitted this post to testing before releasing it.
Go figure (Score:3, Insightful)
Getting rich has always been a combination of sweat, luck and keeping your eyes open for an opportunity. Brilliant reporting, just brilliant.
The real deal... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The real deal... (Score:5, Informative)
Both iPhone and Android are great platforms for development. Android is really cool because it's based on Java which is second nature to me at this point. Android also has a very low barrier to entry in that the development stack is free and it only costs $25 to become an "official" developer with checkout rights on the Android Market. The Android devices are feature-rich and generally ok, but not as well designed as the iPhone.
Both support OpenGL ES which is great for graphics applications. Developing on the iPhone is a bit daunting at first because Objective-C has a stiff learning curve that is purely related to its syntactical style, but once you learn Objective-C you'll never want to see C++ again. BTW, you can use C and C++ to build iPhone apps, but it's probably easier in the long run to just spend a few days getting familiar with Objective-C.
The iPhone is a much more closed ecosystem when compared to Android, but that's a necessary evil that supports Apple's business model. Also, the iPhone is a really good device that just oozes design quality. Developing on the Apple platform makes the developer think about design, usability, and quality above features. It's more fun to develop on the iPhone, to me anyway.
Another advantage of the iPhone is the availability of third party, professional tools like Unity (www.unity3d.com) which greatly speed up the development process. XCode is also a fair development tool and it's free with OSX so that's a big plus. I don't think I'll ever pay for something like Visual Studio again at this point. Between Eclipse, Netbeans, and XCode, why pay for an IDE?
Obviously, the biggest con to iPhone development is the app store and the Apple submission process, but once you've been through it a few times you learn the ropes and it becomes easy to get apps published. Still, I make 20x more money on the app store than I do on the Android market, but that may change over time.
It took me three weeks to develop my first app which wasn't very successful but still makes a hundred or so a month worldwide. It took me a couple of months to make my second app which made the top 100 and still sells well in certain regions. Since then I've released over a dozen apps, some globally and some in specific regions and most of them don't make a lot by themselves, but they add up when tallied together. I am starting to see the wave crash a bit and sales have been declining in the last few months, but I suspect they'll go up again after the holiday season when a few million new devices are given as gifts and new users go app crazy.
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Appstore.. WHO CARES ? (Score:4, Funny)
Come on.. who cares..
Appstore ? Amazon ? E-Bay.. Whatever...
Is this Geek story ?
Who cares about the marketroids doing biziniss ??
Because they are using a "geeky" 'a.k.a the internetz' to do that biziness doesn't make them geeky !
Ok.. I didn't read TFA.. but I didn't feel like it!
I want to read about "quantum physics".. "the ultimate programing language" or "the most prominent hardware architecture"..
and NOT about some sleazy company making money with some lousy marketing scheme..
Sorry.. you may mod me -1 as much as you like.. won't change my mind !
--Ivan
(PS : No.. I won't post AC - Because.. I stand by what I say !)
Do not worry (Score:5, Funny)
You can always find a job using one of the many job apps available in the app store.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
(are there really that many people who cannot calculate 15% of the total before tax?).
Yes.
Re:This is news? (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder how many of those developers are actually releasing though. For instance, I'm a registered developer (I paid my $100), but I did it solely for personal development.
That is, I'm an aerospace engineering grad student doing a lot of estimation and controls work, but mostly on the theory/simulation side -- as such I realized I really should have some experience working with actual hardware. Since my research doesn't provide that opportunity, and I had my phone, which has GPS, accelerometers and magnetometers handy, so I decided to see what I could do with it. Paying the dev fee was probably cheaper than buying custom-purpose hardware.
It's certainly been interesting, and I'm pretty far along in a program that one can attach to a telescope, align against known stars, and then determine where you're pointing afterwards -- but its entirely something I'm doing for me. When its finished (school, another project, and a girl have prevented me from working on it in a while), I'll probably push it on to the app store, sell it for a few bucks on the off chance I'll make the dev fee back, but really, if it makes the difference in me getting a job I want, then thats much more worthwhile to me.
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