Comments: 841 +- Apple: Apple Update Means Palm Pre Can No Longer Sync With iTunes on Wednesday July 15, @05:34PM
endikos writes "Apple updated iTunes to version 8.2.1. According to the changelog, it offers bug fixes and 'addresses an issue with verification of Apple devices.' In other words, 'Buzz off, Palm Pre. You ain't no iPhone.'"
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How it went down: (Score:5, Funny)
Apple: "Oh yes iDid."
Re:How it went down: (Score:5, Funny)
Palm: "Oh no you didn't!"
Apple: "Oh yes iDid."
Palm: Talk to the hand.
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Re:How it went down: (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:How it went down: (Score:5, Funny)
Palm: *open-handed smack*
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Re:How it went down: (Score:5, Funny)
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Sometimes Apple still thinks too much like a... (Score:5, Insightful)
hardware company and not like a software company. Clones aren't necessarily bad as long as they can build superior devices (or have the image for it) and where they would still make money on every sale. They could make decent money being the #1 music site on the web. So what the device isn't an iPod?
I wonder how many people care about iTunes connectivity when they buy an mp3 player? Is it a requirement or afterthought? If it becomes a requirement, that would promote more lock-in for Apple than sabotaging their software against other devices.
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Re:Sometimes Apple still thinks too much like a... (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe because apple IS a hardware company. They use software to drive hardware sales. OS X sells Macs; the iTunes Music Store sells iPods; the App Store sells iPhones. They can't very well sell their hardware if other hardware companies start circumventing the things that tie Apple's hardware to their software. The Pre pretending to be an iPhone when connecting to iTunes is similar to Psystar making PCs think they're Macs.
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Re:Sometimes Apple still thinks too much like a... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe because apple IS a hardware company.
Why do people try to pigeonhole Apple into a one-or-the-other-ware company? They sell both.
Apple's "secret ingredient" is not the software they put into their hardware, and it's not the hardware they put their software on, it's the quality of the combination of the two. They sell a system, and are one of the very few companies left who still do.
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Re:Sometimes Apple still thinks too much like a... (Score:5, Interesting)
My two cents: Apple, as a general principle, aren't going to be too happy with third-aparty devices that sync as seamlessly as an iPod/iPhone to itunes, as it erodes one of USPs of the iPod and means that you can get the same experience by buying a non-Apple music player. This implies less hardware sales for Apple.
From Palm's point of view, I think this is a shot-across-the-bows. Both from an anticompetitive point of view - it'd be easy for Apple to be mired in some antitrust allegations, which they obviously don't want, and also Palm hold a shedload of patents that may or may not be able to similarly tie up Apple in legal knots for quite some time. To be fair, Apple also own a lot of patents in this space, but the thing you realise if you talk to an IP lawyer is that getting into this sort of dick-swinging match is mutually assured destruction.
I think Palm are banking that they could persuade Apple to quietly ignore this feature for fear of the backlash if they blocked it, and it's not paid off. I also think that the fact they did it, regardless of the obvious risk that this might happen, probably doesn't hurt their image as a slightly cooler, more enthusiast-friendly platform. We're talking about it and saying "Go Palm!", aren't we?
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Re:Sometimes Apple still thinks too much like a... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Sometimes Apple still thinks too much like a... (Score:5, Informative)
I tend to take URLs that have a /pr/ in them with a spoonful of salt.
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Frist (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Frist (Score:5, Funny)
Frist psoError: Device type "palm" not authorised!"
And here I thought Apple was an American outfit.
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Ironic dichotomy of Apple's Family Values (Score:5, Insightful)
I interviewed at Apple a few years ago, and a consistent message from the developers was that *everything* they do is to make the customer experience better. Things are not done simply because they're cool -- they have to serve a purpose.
So I find it ironic that, as a MacBook Pro user, Apple has explicitly done something to make my experience *worse*. They went much further than simply failing to "provide support for, or test for compatibility with, non-Apple digital media players." They went out of their way to harm users.
Shame on you, Apple. Have you gotten so big that you've forgotten what it was like to be under Microsoft's thumb?
Re:Ironic dichotomy of Apple's Family Values (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with you.
Apple should erect some walls between its business units, so that the desire to do well in the mobile arena doesn't mean that their systems software unit makes changes to aid that, directly harming consumers.
Yeah, sure, Apple provide XML files in iTunes for third party applications to use for custom sync. But why not just publish a media sync protocol and be done with it.
I personally don't think that Apple have the balls (insert tasteless joke about radiotherapy and cancer here) to actually compete on a level playing field instead of pulling a Microsoft and leveraging their media player monopoly (arguably) to negatively affect a competitor in a different business unit.
On the other hand, Palm should have written their own synchronisation application that tied in with iTunes/WMP/WinAmp/Files + Outlook/iCal/Thunderbird/etc. However the Pre is all cloud-like and probably only needs to get media files on with desktop sync.
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Re:Ironic dichotomy of Apple's Family Values (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Ironic dichotomy of Apple's Family Values (Score:5, Insightful)
By choosing not to play ball with the public api, Palm screwed themselves and their customers. That is all.
Simon
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Re:Ironic dichotomy of Apple's Family Values (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think this is likely to be a concern anyway. There's a clear parallel with Nintendo's case where reproducing their logo was necessary for interoperability, and although it's never gone to court, the same applies to browser vendors' user-agent strings, including Apple's. Apple's Safari browser claims to be Mozilla in its user-agent string for interoperability purposes. It's hard to see how that differs from what Palm are doing.
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Yet another reason to avoid Apple products (Score:4, Insightful)
Companies that actively thwart interoperability and promote lock-in are incompatible with the best interests of their own customers.
I don't care how pretty Apple's products are. If you own an iPhone, a Mac, or use iTunes, you are supporting this kind of corporate behaviour. Either you care enough to modify your behaviour, or you don't.
Give your dollars to companies that are demonstrably "less bad" whenever possible. Accept that you'll have to go without some of the bling until the market catches up.
Re:Yet another reason to avoid Apple products (Score:5, Insightful)
Umm i can run anything i want on my mac, even windows if i was so inclined..
My ipod has never touched an apple formated file.
Just 2 simple examples.
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Re:Yet another reason to avoid Apple products (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you think it would be in the interest of Apple's customers if Apple were instead to shut down the iTunes Music Store, because the margins on that aren't high enough, and they no longer have the iPod margins keeping it all afloat? You can't separate Apple's iPod business from their iTMS business, as one is necessary for the other to be worth it for them.
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Doubletwist? (Score:5, Informative)
It reads iTunes libraries (including those irritatingly hidden away on iPods/Phones) and syncs to lots of devices quite nicely.
It's not exactly full-featured enough yet to use as your main media player, but it's really useful for moving stuff between devices.
Songbird is the answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Palm should go with Songbird. Songbird is not 100% stable and bug free (I have been testing it lately), but if they offer a bit of assistance to the SF-based team, they could make it work for them just fine.
And in the process, maybe they would be able to open the doors for more smartphones/players who are in need of a capable mp3 organizer.
Who got a Pre thinking it'd always sync w/ iTunes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously think about this for a minute. You've got a device manufacturer that creates a direct competitor to Apple's products, openly advertising that they are piggybacking onto Apple's software functionality without negotiating some kind of licensing agreement and without Apple's consent. Then Apple closes the loophole that enables this unsupported functionality. But nobody wants to blame poor underdog Palm for having done this in the first place. Your average consumer, who either is too ignorant or too self-centered to think two steps ahead, buys into the advertised functionality and then blames Apple when they decide to break it?
That's not how the game is played, folks. If Palm wants to compete, then let them create their own service and interface rather than leveraging another company's successful work. You say that's unfair because Apple has created a heavily lopsided playing field, and now it's impossible to compete with the massive popularity of iTunes. But you have to ask yourself, where were these same competitors five years ago? What where they doing? They were twiddling their thumbs and milking the consumer for all they were worth while making incremental improvements in their devices. Then Apple came along and blew the whole mobile device market away with the iPhone and NOW they want to complain about the playing field not being level? Fuck that bullshit.
Make no mistake, I don't particularly approve that Apple did what they did, but if you bought a Palm Pre and couldn't see this coming you are not only blind but you're an idiot. Palm, RIM, Nokia, Samsung, Sony--all the handset makers, not to mention the telecoms who still continue to nickel-and-dime consumers with exorbitant rates on SMS (for no other reason except that they can), are not, and never were, your friends just because now they're the underdogs. Same thing with the MP3 player market. These companies want you to think that slapping on features like they were afterthoughts is "technological progress." They never had the vision to rethink the whole device and the whole user experience from the bottom up. And now people have the balls to complain that Apple is a monopoly because they gave you real competition? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Re:Who got a Pre thinking it'd always sync w/ iTun (Score:5, Insightful)
If Wikipedia is correct Apple had 88% of the U.S. download market in 2006 and it passed Walmart as the #1 all around music sales leader in 2008. iTunes is a defacto monopoly now and Apple better start treading more carefully. Using tie ins to build new monopolies, which seems to be what they are doing here, is especially dangerous. An antitrust regulator might be inclined to say Apple's defacto monopoly on online music sales is giving them an unfair advantage in other markets, in this case the smartphone market. If a competitor can't bring a new smartphone to market because they can't access online music because of a monopoly Apple is begging for an antitrust complaint.
You can argue competitors just have to start their own competing MP3 service but that is a very tall order, especially since it requires inking deals with a relatively small number of recording companies that are something of cartel themselves. They are already distributing their product through iTunes and may or may not give a competing MP3 services the same terms, or may not deal with them at all which would make the iTunes monopoly very pronounced and entrenched.
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Re:Who got a Pre thinking it'd always sync w/ iTun (Score:5, Insightful)
iTunes is a defacto monopoly now and Apple better start treading more carefully.
Why? The iTunes Store enables media acquisition, desktop playback, library organization, and is written to sync with Apple devices. All your downloads are sitting pretty, right there on your hard drive, fully available for you to use as you please. Anything you downloaded with DRM you got with the known caveat that it would only work with Apple products.
Using tie ins to build new monopolies, which seems to be what they are doing here, is especially dangerous.
If by build new monopolies, you mean not supporting syncing of third-party devices on their unpublished, internal protocol, then sure. But that's an uphill battle to convince anyone that that is an unlawful monopoly.
An antitrust regulator might be inclined to say Apple's defacto monopoly on online music sales is giving them an unfair advantage in other markets, in this case the smartphone market.
Not really. It gives them an advantage in the internal syncing department, but as a natural effect of them making both products.
If Palm wants to access the iTunes library XML file and use that to load information in its own sync software, the file's sitting right there for them to use. Failing that, it can read the file/folder structure and metadata directly and compile its own library.
The Pre isn't disabled. Palm tried to piggyback on iTunes using an undocumented and unsupported hack to capture a competitor's market with zero effort. Talk about unfair advantage.
If a competitor can't bring a new smartphone to market because they can't access online music because of a monopoly
Where can't they? 1. Buy music from Amazon, iTunes, Walmart, Microsoft, whatever. 2. Transfer files to Pre. 3. Profit.
You can argue competitors just have to start their own competing MP3 service
Like the rest of your comment, it's entirely off base and out of scope. Palm doesn't need an MP3 service. All they have to do, and all they had to do from the start, was put a modicum of effort into writing their own synchronization software. There's nothing particularly special about the media storage of iTunes (files and folders) or the library database (XML).
Palm just noticed that there was a way they could get plug-and-chug support for free, and leave Apple holding the bag of dog crap when future versions of iTunes no longer worked with whatever hacked-together code was stuffed onto the Pre. Suddenly "iTunes broke my Pre!" would ring out all across the Internet.
that is a very tall order, especially since it requires inking deals with a relatively small number of recording companies that are something of cartel themselves.
Apple did it, and did it before the lucrative nature of the setup had empirical evidence. If anything, it should be easier to compete now.
Get real. The iTunes Store has almost nothing to do with this. The iTunes client software, developed by Apple, supports syncing Apple devices. They're not, nor in any rational world would they be, required to support third party data transfer.
If you want to put all smartphone manufacturers in a room and tell them to come up with an open standard for data synchronization, fine, but until that's the case, get real.
You're babbling about nothing. Palm never had any right or reasonable expectation to be able to use Apple's unpublished protocols and expect it to work in a production environment. No one's stopping Palm from syncing the media or selling their smartphones.
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What Palm is doing is skanky (Score:5, Insightful)
A device masquerading as another device by using the same USB manufacturer/device ID is not the way to build interoperability. It's just inviting all sorts of unintended consequences and bugs. How did this ever pass muster at Palm?
Re:Just deserts. (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Microsoft put the work in, why should anyone else be able to run software on windows?
2. Meh, I don't own anything apple or palm, and I do prefer jsut using files. I just dislike idiocy (your post).
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
And perhaps you ought to try to understand what a monopoly is and how making blanket statements about what apple are entitled to do with their stuff is stupid.
They are able to o this precisely until they are found to be a monopoly in either market, at which point locking hardware (iPod is definitely at monopoly stage) and software (iTunes must have over half the music download market) is abusive behaviour.
Specifically killing interop with other products is verging on illegal behavious and certainly makes them arseholes.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
They are able to do this precisely until they are found to be a monopoly in either market, at which point locking hardware (iPod is definitely at monopoly stage) and software (iTunes must have over half the music download market) is abusive behaviour.
Except they do no such locking at this point. iTunes music is now DRM-free and can be played on any device including Palm Pre. iTunes music library is an XML file with straightforward schema and there are various SDKs for accessing it even more easily. All Palm has to do is develop a separate preference panel to specify what gets synced.
What Apple is trying to prevent is people connecting a Palm and getting a tab in iTunes that has multiple occurrences of the word "iPod". This can be seen as a subtle case of trademark dilution.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Interesting)
What Apple is trying to prevent is people connecting a Palm and getting a tab in iTunes that has multiple occurrences of the word "iPod". This can be seen as a subtle case of trademark dilution.
What Apple is trying to do is not let a non-Apple device sync with iTunes, isn't it? Without, I presume, some form of licensing or fee or something from the manufacturer. If that's not what they are doing, if all they really want to do is protect the trademark "iPod," then there is a major communication breakdown between Palm and Apple.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
s/interesting/boring
That's the biggest load of BS I've ever seen. If Apple really cared about brand dilution rather than breaking interoperability, they would have made iTunes detect the Pre and sync it under a properly labeled tab rather than just break syncing, it wouldn't require appreciably more code than what they did, and it wouldn't be a ridiculous dick move either... or completely futile as this is likely to prove when Palm works around it in under a week.
Apple is being petty and obnoxious to their own PAYING CUSTOMERS simply because some people made the cardinal sin of buying a semi-related product they didn't make. I can only imagine what the people honestly trying to defend that would say if Microsoft did this instead of Apple, or even if Google did this instead of Apple.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Hey, I can't sync my iPod with Windows Media Player! MICROSOFT MONOPOLY ABUSE!"
Probably, yes. Was that supposed to be inflammatory or shocking? Microsoft are assholes, and so are Apple, what's your point?
"Apple has no obligation whatsoever to let anyone else sync with iTunes, just like any other playlist/sync app has no obligation to let other software sync with theirs. There is nothing stopping Palm from making their own software or getting a plugin for something like WinAmp. In addition, unless you have DRM'ed iTunes music, you can pull all of that music right out and sync it with any other software that supports the Pre. Anyone who didn't see this coming a mile away is obviously not thinking very clearly."
No, nor does Microsoft have any obligation to not break iTunes on Windows. Palm isn't forcing users to download iTunes, the users are doing it for themselves because they like the Pre and they like iTunes. You're right about one thing though, anyone who didn't see this coming from a mile away probably aren't thinking clearly: Apple pull this kind of douchebaggery all the time. What I don't get is how you or anyone else can actually rationalize this as a fair and reasonable thing to do.
"Your argument is little more than petty Apple-bashing and holds no water. Apple isn't keeping people from using their music on the Pre. They're keeping people from using iTunes to sync with their Pre, which is very different. Like someone else said, it would be pretty simple for Palm to make an app that reads the iTunes XML file and syncs your music from there instead of within iTunes. There are a hundred different ways Palm can sync their device. Piggybacking on iTunes was one of the dumbest."
NONE OF WHICH ACTUALLY JUSTIFIES APPLE INTENTIONALLY, SPECIFICALLY, AND MALICIOUSLY PREVENTING THE PRE FROM SYNCING WITH ITUNES. Read your statement, then read that sentence one more time and let it sink in. Apple went out of their way to do this simply for the sake of doing it, they stand to gain absolutely nothing from it, the only possible explanation is that they are upset that people are buying the Pre instead of iPhones, and criticizing them for it is "little more than petty Apple-bashing that holds no water." Wow. I don't care if there are a thousand ways to put music on a Pre, and I don't care if syncing it with iTunes is somehow pointless or stupid or inferior, because that still isn't a good reason for Apple to do that. They could have improved their software to make it work better and marketed it as a feature, they could have fixed the incorrect identification of the Pre as an iPod, or they could have done nothing at all, but instead they chose to reduce functionality out of spite. Seriously.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's boorish.
It makes Apple look so very close to Microsoft in attitude that I'm apalled. Embrace-and-extend doesn't mean spank your customers.
No matter whether you like iTunes or iPhone, they ought to be able to work with other stuff, as you mention, as in interoperability. Purposeful disenfranchisement is the mark of a child. Take your toys and go home.
Mod me -1 as in ashamed of Apple.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
It makes Apple look so very close to Microsoft in attitude that I'm apalled.
You must be new here.
I mean, think about it. The iPhone is a more locked-down platform than anything Microsoft has done in the mobile space, or on the desktop. And Apple is rejecting apps for fairly arbitrary reasons.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Funny)
Apple's devices are also virtually 100% secure, just like OS X. Having a device that has an unproven security record lie and say it is an iPhone or iPod (which neither of which has had a malware issue since their inception) is a disservice to Apple's users, so it's completely understandable why Apple would put the kibosh on the matter for good.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the power of modern computer systems is in the useful interaction between components. For Vendor B to build a product that interacts in a desirable way with Vendor A's product is exactly what should happen, and is about as "classy" as anything a corporate person is going to do. For vendor A to turn around and break that interaction is a middle finger in the eye for the customers. A middle finger they are permitted to insert; but the notion of praising them for it is absurd.
Should your browser have an "invite" to work with a web server from a different vendor? Do makers of aftermarket parts lack class? Why praise a company's self interested attempt to improve its fortunes at your expense?
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would have to agree. I liken this to the old saying Windows isn't done until 1-2-3 won't run. Why should a vendor be allowed to deliberately modify software so that another vendors product will not run. I do not believe that the I-tunes UELA says that I have to have an Apple device to use the software.
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Re:Just deserts. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple. Apple doesn't want to have to support Palm.
If the Pre had NEVER worked with iTunes, there wouldn't be a problem. Because Apple was slow to modify things so it didn't work, they're going to take some flak. If they'd let things go for a year or two or whatever until they changed something in iTunes, for other reasons, that broke Pre compatibility, they'd be in even bigger trouble.
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^ This! A million times this! (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as an ex-Support person, if you ever support one thing, once, implictly customers will whinge when you break it through no fault of your own.
They will also bitch if you explicitly say we don't support it before giving a hand with their unsupported problem anyway because you're a decent human being.
Apple was 100% right. It's not a published standard. If they broke shit accidentally later on there'd be hell to pay. Nip it in the bud now.
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Insightful)
If people hated iTunes as much as you think, the iPod wouldn't be the #1 MP3 player. People would buy a Zune instead, so they didn't have to use iTunes. Think about it--all the functionality of an iPod, and it's cheaper, and they'd be able to use WMP instead of iTunes. If people didn't like iTunes, they'd leap at that.
And before the Zune there were plenty of other MP3 players, using other software (or no special software) to load 'em up. They all died away, because the average person likes iTunes just fine.
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Insightful)
Until such time as it's shown that they have a monopoly in online music distribution, at which point courts in various places will start to look seriously at why interoperativity isn't there.
And if/when they see behaviour like this, specifically designed to limit it, they'll likely make rulings about it.
I see the motivation for Apple - they are basically the only game in town when it comes to mp3, unless you're a geek - and they could see this as diluting their hold on the market.
Doesn't make them any less dickish for doing it though.
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Re:Qualifier (Score:5, Funny)
[...] and let's not forget the Zune.
no... seriously... lets
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Interesting)
Are you for real? This is the same shit that MS did with Windows. If we allow this type of behavior in a very short time we will see vehicles which can only be refueled at specific gas stations. Appliances which can only be repaired by authorized vendors. etc...
They have no obligation to support but a deliberate attempt to disable a feature should be illegal.
I for one will NEVER purchase a product that I can't do with as I please for my personal use. If you deliberately break the product then I guarantee you will not see one red penny from me ever again. It's the main reason I don't purchase from iTunes.
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Informative)
Intel were sued for illegal business practices. They used their virtual CPU monopoly to bully or 'bribe' system builders into not stocking AMD.
I'm loving how many USians are getting their panties in a twist about it though, so don't let me stop you. ;)
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Insightful)
Giving a rebate for not stocking a competitor? That sounds pretty much exactly like a bribe to me.
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Informative)
People of European descent who live or lived in what's now called the United States of America have been calling themselves Americans since long before there was a United States thereof and were widely known as such in Europe. They saw no reason to change that after they defeated what was then the most powerful military state in the world largely because:
1. They were used to referring to themselves as Americans.
2. "United Statesians" didn't exactly roll off the tongue.
Any other conjecture, theory or wild-assed guess relating to residents of the United States "appropriating" the term American is utter nonsense.
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Re:What does this get them? (Score:5, Insightful)
So when hackers used to take advantage of RPC vulnerabilities in Windows XP, and then Microsoft patched it so they couldn't, the hackers had a right to be mad that this functionality was removed?
You're comparing a person's ability to use his own copy of iTunes to sync his own music library with his own Palm Pre to a hacker's ability to remotely exploit other people's Windows boxes without their consent? Sorry, try again.
Your comment implies that syncing a Palm Pre with iTunes was a function fully intended and provided by Apple, and it wasn't.
No, it doesn't. It only implies that syncing a Palm Pre with iTunes was useful and valuable, and Apple has destroyed that value by disabling it.
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Re:I couldn't care less (Score:5, Insightful)
What DRM laden music?
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