Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo 1147
theodp writes "Speaking at a conference in NYC, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer did his best to refan the flames of the Mac vs. PC rivalry: 'Now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction [against Apple],' Ballmer said. 'The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment — same piece of hardware — paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.'"
Many differences but... (Score:2, Interesting)
There are many differences between Microsoft and Apple but Balmer does have a point. Apple really make you pay for their branding.
How much is it really worth to have a white laptop for instance?
Note: Maybe this is flamebait, but if so the article/Balmer is/are trolling.
But the Air is "cheaper" than the Adamo... (Score:5, Interesting)
Turns out that for only $300 MORE, the Air will provide you with a CPU that's 400 MHz faster, the 128 GB SSD and dedicated graphics, along with OS X Leopard and the ability to run Windows Vista (probably better than the Adamo can).
Aren't CEOs of software megaconglomerates like Microsoft supposed to do this kind of research before talking smack?
The slashdot monkey island is in Riot (Score:3, Interesting)
Man, it's a hailstorm of flung turds already and we are only a few posts in.
All the fanbois calm down now....
Ballmer has shown that he in public seems really out of touch, his views on the iPod and iPhone show how what he says isn't the market view. I suspect that he has to say those things, and deep down is actually pretty scared about the iPhone etc. But he can't come out and say, "damn, they really target their niche really well", because that's not his style. Microsoft targets it's niche equally well, business is a sea of Dells running MS OS's, so it's not like he doesn't know about marketing to your core.
Once again he has missed the point, apple machines do cost more, but you get a unique product. There are precious few PC's out there that are concerned with how the back of the unit looks or cable management, etc. Apple is selling a higher caliber piece of gear than the generic best-buy special. Take a look at the apple keyboard vs. any other PC keyboard. You may or may not like the design, but the differences are clear.
With a mac product, you can run ALL software, the converse is not true. That's worth some money to lots of people.
Like any unique product, you will pay for it. but for a lot f people it is worth it.
Ballmer has to say those things regardless of what he believes inside, he's the voice of Microsoft.
Sheldon
Re:Ballmer -1 Troll (Score:1, Interesting)
Microsoft is running in a different market. Look how loudly developers screamed when they actually had to adhere to a privilege model under Vista with UAC, rather than just running everything as Administrator. Microsoft's only way to really start afresh would be to completely virtualize the existing stuff, and have it appear to the user on an application level, similar to how VMWare has a Unity mode so the app has its own window.
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Interesting)
Apple is any better? It's not like MS sues people for running windows on non-standard hardware. It's not like MS refuses to 'license' applications for windows mobile. It's not like MS requires you to become a paid developer to write applications for their mobile OS either.
I'm no MS fanboy, but i'm no huge apple fan either. Both do their share of questionable things but I'd have to say that MS is actually the more open of the two.
And really, one look at the prices and specs of the new mini's should tell you that apple's grossly overpriced. I can buy a better specced *laptop* for less than the cost of a mini.
Its not just the logo... (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing Apple offers is good service. A user who isn't technical can buy their computer, their OS, and in a number of cases, the applications they use on a day to day basis (iWork for example) all from Apple. Instead of being shunted around between the hardware company, the OS vendor, the app maker, and perhaps some third party that is blamed for a driver issue, a user can just call one point of contact and most likely have the problem solved. Or, they can go to a Genius Bar and bring the machine and show the problem in person.
Of course, one personal account is statistically insignificant, but I can compare support experiences on a personal level (as opposed to calling a business support line.) For a problem in a laptop, one PC maker put me on hold for 2-3 hours, read a script demanding running diagnostics even though the problem was quite obvious, then pretty much said to go pester the OEM for the part for a replacement. When I had bad RAM in a new Macbook, I went to a Genius Bar, and they just swapped out the entire machine with a new one.
Business or premium PC support is different, but it definitely costs enough that brings the $500 to $1000 price difference way closer.
For the cost difference, less aggravation for a user who is more focused on the work they are doing as opposed to the computer can be worth it.
Another thing not factored in is OS X. OS X to some may bring the "Apple tax" gap closer together.
One can argue the security issues about OS X versus Windows, but because the malware makers are gunning for Windows with relatively few exploits for OS X in the wild, one doesn't have to be as on top of computer security. I can run an OS X box using the default browser without antivirus software and not really have to worry about the box ending up as a botnet client (although there are always Trojans). This would be pure suicide if I did the same with Windows and IE and no antivirus software. OS X is a lot more forgiving for people who are not atop things when it comes to securing their computer.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Interesting)
Generally speaking, Dell isn't a good value, for sure, but if you shop around a bit you can get better system for a fair chunk of change less than a Mac.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Interesting)
No it's not just about software. When you buy an Apple computer, your not spending the extra $500.00 on hardware and software; you're spending the extra $500.00 on the Reality Distortion Field [wikipedia.org]
From my experience... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm a post graduate student who has not so many bucks (Pounds in my case) lying around, either. But still, in June as soon as Apple releases their Snow Leopard I will go for a 24 inch iMac. Will cost me about 1085 Pounds as a student (incl. wireless mouse/keyboard), but for this money I get a computer which provides me with excellent value for the price: huge screen with high 1920x1200 resolution, excellent operating system with hardly any anoyances, things-just-work environment whit all the things I (!) need.
I have already an 20 inch iMac with Leopard at the office and therefore I know that it provides me whit precisely my needs. And compared to other students and member of staff which opted for Windows machines the iMac outperfomes them with respect to usability and complete lack of any problems (you have no idea how much problems the Windows machines have in the Windows centric world we have at our office!).
Anyways ... I for myself don't mind if Balmer keeps dreaming or throwing chairs. ;-)
Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
When I switched from Windows to OS X and got my MacBook Pro I first compared it's price to those of Windows OEM laptops and the prices were comparable. While an HP laptop cost about $50 less a Dell cost about $200 more for similarly configured laptops. So I didn't pay extra. I've had my MBP for about 20 months now and in that tyme I haven't had nearly as many problems with it as I have had with the Windows, or Linux, PCs I've also had.
Falcon
Re:and with that same philosophy (Score:3, Interesting)
As much as I hate doing so, I have to agree with Ballmer.
These large banks made a real mess of our economy and I reckon it'll take a long time to work things out. The way I see it, the economy grew too fast on nothing but hype, similar to the dot-com era. Except this time, it was much bigger and touched a lot more people.
The government is going to be pumping money into the system to keep it from collapsing before the reality of our economy can come closer to the myth that was pushed the last few years.
This is far from over even though a lot of us aren't even feeling it yet.
This is the ideal situation for FOSS to shine. Maybe a slogan like "Save an employee, use Free/Open Source Software" might be good.
Re:Misdirection (Score:5, Interesting)
My reply was to a comment about business practices. Just because someone has the "right" to do something doesn't make it a fair or acceptable business practice.
Furthermore, the hole we've dug with "licensing" software might make it possible for them to require you use their hardware but that's actually up for debate in the courts right now.
My original point stands - MS will not sue you for installing their OS on whatever hardware you want. They may have their faults but MS does far, FAR less to limit what you can do with their software/hardware then apple.
Re:Hardly surprising... (Score:3, Interesting)
I do Windows support from my mac (Score:3, Interesting)
I took the Mac plunge a couple years back and wouldnt buy anything else hardware wise now at least when it comes to notebooks. I need something reliable, portable and fast so far OSX fits that bill.
For me the best part about OSX is its portablity, try taking a harddrive out of a windows machine and moving it to another non indentical one and see what happens. With OSX as long as its an intel moving to an intel or ppc moving to ppc its just plug and go doesnt matter if its a core or core2 or what model. Better yet try troubleshooting a hardware problem on one windows machine by simply holding down a key on bootup to boot from another machine without having do anything without having to touch the innards.
As for price, my macbook (I dont own a pro) has better specs than the T61 for which I paid $200 more.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure he's looking at it from the view of, "Every computer in the world should be running Windows!"
I'd say he may be subconsciously thinking of Linux...Same hardware + linux = cheaper than with OS/X or Windows
Re:Is there a gas leak in here? (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.
As someone who doesn't live his life on his laptop, four features, the aluminum chassis, backlit keyboard, and bluetooth and wifi that work correctly almost 100% of the time, the extra $900^H^H^H
:-P
Okay, I lie a little, I know I paid too much, but the features that made me choose a Macbook Pro (in 2007, before aluminum chassis came on Macbooks) over another OEM's Windows PC were easily worth maybe 400 of my extra dollars.
Also, with regards to the AC above you, I much prefer Vista to Leopard
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not the logo (Score:3, Interesting)
It's the ease of use.
Personally I run Windows. At home and at work. I've used a Mac maybe a grand total of 48 hours in my life. That should tell you where I'm at with bias.
I also do tech support for printers. I suspect maybe half a percent of our calls the user is running OS X. Solving issues there is very simple (again I've not really used a Mac):
*Unplug the printer
*Go to system, printers, control/right click, reset printer system
*Reconnect the printer (or add it if it's a network printer)
This works in 95% of all cases
Windows:
*Unplug the printer
*Empty the printer queue
*Delete the printer
*Disable firewall programs (even for USB printers, and don't ask my why that works)
*Reconnect the printer (or add it if it's a network printer)
This works in 50% of all cases
Fewer steps, huge difference in effectiveness.
If it doesn't work ...
Mac:
*Unplug printer
*Reset print system again
*Create a new user account
*Run a file system fix
*Add printer
Windows:
*Unplug printer
*Delete printer
*Get customer to run a batch file from a special folder on the CD
***This is an issue in an of itself, as quite a lot of customers think you're telling them to open either the C or D drive ("well, which one" is a classic. DVD doesn't help: "I don't have a V drive")
*Hand holding them through this uninstall ("Yes, now you click next")
*Run MSconfig to disable all startup items and non-microsoft services and reboot
*Doublecheck that their AV and firewall is disabled (Norton's older programs are notorious about running anyway)
*(Realise that the customer is using a wireless network and a special service/startup item is used to activate their wireless NIC - applies only to network printers)
*Add the printer again
*Reboot to normal mode again
Then of course there are issues with routers that don't function well with IPv6 (or Vista's implementation of it). While it's cool that Windows finally has an IPv6 stack for those that need it, it's not cool that it'll break the network. I only know this because of the issues we have with it. Disabling the IPv6 stack on Vista computers on the network probably solves about half of the issues we cannot solve otherwise. Again, nothing I've seen happen on Mac OS X, but we don't have nearly as big a pool of cases to pick from.
Sure, we don't get as many calls about OS X as we do Windows. But the market share for Mac is much higher than the number of issues we have compared to Windows. Either Windows has dumber users, or Windows does something much worse than the Mac does with regards to printers. My guess is mostly the latter.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
About the one-button mouse: Apple's "Mighty Mouse," introduced in 2005, has no visible button, but can be configured in software to have 1, 2 or 3 buttons.
Alas, it never really worked right in 2-button mode. Specifically, if you have your index finger resting on the left side of the mouse, and press the right side of the mouse, it registers as a left-click rather than a right click. So you have to remember to lift your finger(s) off the left side of the mouse before right clicking every time. It drove me batty.
Ballmer is a tired old man, it seems to me. (Score:1, Interesting)
Time out (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not violating any license to install software on a machine that doesn't meet the hardware requirements. It's just that the result will be unsupported and possibly unsatisfactory.
Let's Say SteveB is Right (Score:2, Interesting)
Full Disclosure: I own a 17" macbook pro, and an 160gb ipod classic. Prior to that, a 17" powerbook g4. I don't consider myself a mac fanboy, but a unix fanboy. I switched from 14 years of Linux to macs because I got tired of dealing with drivers. That said...
Let's say SteveB is right. Apple charges a premium for its logo. I think he's right to a certain extent. Many pundits have deemed Apple a "luxury brand". Jonathan Ive has defined a look for Apple. It's clean. It's pretty. It looks different. It sets trends. Most importantly, people like it enough to pay for it.
Now the question that SteveB, Alex Bogusky, and the rest of Microsoft, are going to do about it besides whine, because so far that's all they've done.
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
You must have been looking at the wrong Dell one then
Yea, Dell makes it harder to find a computer than Apple does. Does a buyer want a Home/Home Office system, a small to medium business system, or a large business system? Of course there are other choices. And they all come with different configurations and different prices. However when I looked there was 3 Mac laptop lines, MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro. It's quite easy to see which one a buyer would want to buy. I just checked Dell again. Home and Home Office does not have a 17". Small Business has three, the lowest price one is $600 whereas the other two start at $3405, $700 more than the 17" MacBook Pro. Now for large business, there are 2, the Dell Precision M6400 [dell.com] with a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 17" UltraSharp(TM) WUXGA (1920x1200) RGB LED Display, 4.0GB, DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM, and 320GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Windows XP (which is being End of Lifed) cost $3,168. The MacBook Pro with the same configuration is $2800. What about the other one? Instead of XP it comes with Redhat Linux [dell.com] and cost $3090 for the same cpu, graphics, and hdd.
With the exception of the $600 laptop all of the laptops above cost more than the 17" MacBook Pro. You may say "but you looked at 17" laptops". Yes I did. One of the things I got it for, photography, the larger screen is better. For photography I also want a big hdd and high resolution display as well as a fast processor.
Falcon
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:3, Interesting)
What you consider to be Unix is most likely actually Linux. In reality, Mac OS X is a lot closer to Unix than Linux is, as OS X is indeed certified Unix while Linux is considered a clone of Unix.
I was using UN*X when Linus Torvalds was still in primary school. I've used, administered and programmed on nearly every variant of UN*X there's ever been, except Xenix and Minix. There are at this moment in this house machines running BSD, AIX and Solaris as well as four different Linux distros on three different processor architectures, and yes, they're all mine. So don't tell me what I'm talking about.
What I'm talking about is that in UN*X you can start with the init process and trace through shell scripts and textual config files to see how every service is started; and if things get buggered, you can fix them with a text editor. With MacOS (as with NeXT Step before it, and with KDE and with Gnome), the users with their pretty pointy clicky tools can make messes that the pretty pointy clicky tools can't get them out of. But with KDE and Gnome, underneath those pointy clicky tools are textual config files which you can fix when the users bugger them up. With NeXT Step and MacOS, the config is in binary files you can't edit except with the pretty pointy clicky tools, so when the user has buggered the machine to the point where the pointy clicky stuff won't run (which was fairly easy on NeXT Step but, to be fair, seems to be a bit harder with MacOS XX), you're stuck.
And that's why MacOS X is not UN*X, no matter what it says on the tin. UN*X is a collection of small tools each of which does one thing well, and which communicate between one another with plain text streams and files. MacOS isn't like that.
Re:Is there a gas leak in here? (Score:3, Interesting)
> Why can't people just prefer apple, and not be fanatical about it?
I think this perfectly sums up the problem with Balmer's rantings.
Apple gives people good reason to be fanatical.
An "extra $500" for a machine that may last you awhile may not be such a bad tradeoff.
Let me run a little calculation... (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft(R) Windows Vista Ultimate (TM): $320
Microsoft(R) Office Professional (TM): $500
Linux: $0
OpenOffice: $0
I know, the Microsoft cds come with exclusive high-tech copy protection and DRM, but is it really worth the extra $820? Or is it just branding?
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Protools is the reason why every popular band's songs sound like overproduced shit. Protools has led to copypasted, phoney-sounding crappola which is not worthy of being called "music". Protools takes the soul out of recording.
What a stupid fucking thing to say. Pro Tools has nothing to do with why popular band's songs sound like overproduced shit. For that, you can turn to the producers, who in turn get their opinions from the marketplace. So far, people keep buying up the garbage that the major labels have been pushing, so guess what? It's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.
If Pro Tools alone were the culprit, then ALL of the music being produced (Indie bands, Barbershop, whatever) would sound like overproduced shit. It doesn't. And since most of this music is recorded straight into Pro Tools these days, I guess we can eliminate Pro Tools alone as the sole reason popular music is shitty.
Instead, I think what you are getting at is that non-linear editing is making music homogenous, and taking the life (soul?) out of it. This could be a valid argument. It's too bad you didn't make it.
And yes, Pro Tools does run on Windows, including Vista. It is also pretty unreliable, at least when you are dealing with the TDM systems. The Macs run much more smoothly, and are much easier to troubleshoot when things (invariably) go wrong. Windows does have the advantage of being able to chase Unity though...
I'm not pulling this out of my ass; I have almost a decade of experience in the industry, and as I type this, I am mixing a commercial (in Pro Tools, on a 5 year-old Mac) for delivery on Tuesday.
I will agree with you on one thing though: Pro Tools is overpriced. If you want real sticker shock, try looking into Digidesign's hardware crossgrades. *Shudder*
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:1, Interesting)
All you have demonstrated is that Apple users don't know how to shop around for a bargain.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Interesting)
I have wondered who besides Apple sells a 17" laptop with a screen that's 1900x1200 pixels or better. I haven't seen one. Of course, I could easily have missed it, because with most laptops, it's impressively difficult to discover the pixel count. They tell you the diagonal size, with no other numeric information. Even if you can dig out a "specs" page, often the pixel count isn't anywhwere to be seen.
Maybe they think that we're all too stupid to understand the concept of resolution.
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:3, Interesting)
In my situation my company purchased my laptop. Now I was given a choice, laptop or desktop, whatever I wanted within a reasonable budget. Now for some odd reason I chose the MacBook Pro.
Given the pick of any laptop, isn't that the one you would pick? Throw on top of that one of the most stable and easy to use operating systems I've ever experienced. I can't think of a reason you would want to use anything else. I could put windows on it if I wanted to.
Setting cost aside what machine do you really want? Considering the life of the unit would you rather have the machine you want or just make do with whatever machine was the cheapest? I use this laptop every day of my life (sad I know) why not shell out that extra $500 for the reason the machine is worth it. Like in my MacBook Pro's case solid construction, great keyboard, great track pad, easy to view screen, accessible peripheral ports. I've never had to replace a part on this machine except for the power supply which suffered a cord injury. My only real complaint about this machine is how warm it gets, but its either sitting on a laptop pad, or on my desk.
Now compare this to my previous experience owning a Dell Inspiron. The Inspiron was bought on a budget a lot smaller then the MacBook Pro budget. In all in the first year of owning the laptop I replaced the following under warranty:
Modem 3x
Motherboard 2x
Screen 1x
Keyboard 2x
Owning the Inspiron was pure hell. Add on top of that having to deal with Windows and the number of driver issues the machine had I never wanted to buy a Dell again (nor have I).
So after two and half years of owning this MacBook Pro I still have a complete working machine with no hardware issues with nothing ever having to be replaced.
Here is what I have noticed regarding computer (and auto) manufacturers. As of late they have moved to a business model where they create a product that lives through its warranty period and not much longer after that. At which point it costs a considerable amount of money to repair or replace. Now Apple on the other hand has always striven to build a solid product. I respect them for this. There are certain aspects I don't like about Apple, like Steve Jobs for instance, but this amount of dislike absolutely pales in comparison to that for Microsoft and other PC manufacturers.
In the coming years in the tightening of the economy I predict the successful companies will return to making quality products that last longer. Mainly due to people realizing they can't economically replace their laptop/car every 3 years.
I am not a Mac Fanboi. I simply found something that works better then windows/PC could ever dream of. If I don't have the option of Mac OS X on the "appropriate" hardware then my next choice is Ubuntu for its simplicity. I've personally switched 12 friends and family to using it exclusively.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's almost like Apple WANTS to keep the Mac a small exclusive club. Which is the truth. Apple is selling a premium brand experience and if it ever threatened to become mainstream the value would disappear.
You mean "premium brand" like the iPod, where surely all value must have left it by now? The truth is much simpler, Apple knows what they've got and they got comfortable margins on what they're selling today. They could quite easily release products more targeted at the mainstream, bringing their market share up and margins down, but they're afraid. They've been trying to battle it out with Windows once before and almost died from it. If they release cheaper macs like say a netbook or a regular desktop box people will choose that over more expensive macs so there's no risk-free attempts. I'm fairly certain buyers of all prices classes would be interested in a machine that "Just works". To put it a little bluntly, I think many people would be better off with a 500$ machine they paid 800$ for and knew how to use than a 800$ machine they don't. But once you start going down that path it might be hard to pull out should it go badly, and you know Microsoft will not make it easy on you.
Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs (Score:5, Interesting)
I, on the other hand, bought a refurbished PowerBook 5 years ago and had zero problems with it. The only reason that I upgraded to a new MacBook Pro has been that I needed a larger disk and the 4GB of ram along with the ability to run Java 6. This was in January and I have had zero problems with it.
I understand that there are those that seem to just run into problems with their Apple products. There are always the occasional bad batches.
I like the Apple Macintosh systems, because I am a former NextStep developer. I have owned Apple computers since Mac OS X first came out. Before that, I have owned various PCs running Microsoft DOS and Windows. I have even tried Linux.
I am by no means a fanboi, but am sick of hearing people who bitch and moan about the price of a Mac or that Apple does not open up Mac OS X to run on a generic Intel system. One of the reasons that Apple's systems work so well is that they control the hardware as well as the software.
If you think that Apple's prices are too high, then don't buy one. Do you bitch and moan that a Mercedes is too expensive when you are buying a car? Or do you look at cars that are in your price range?
BTW: I got over 5 years use out of my PowerBook before I desired to upgrade to a MacBook Pro. I think that I definitely got my money's worth.
Where's my $99 PC? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Take one apart (Score:2, Interesting)
It is most assuredly not true. I have a 2 year old MBP, and I replaced the hard drive last fall.
Let me tell you that is a nontrivial exercise because of a few factors
This has all been resolved on more recent versions of the MBP and regular MB. I have a white Macbook 13" and changing the hard drive is just about as easy as you could make it be on a notebook. 3 screws hold the hard drive/ram cover in place. Once that's off, you pull a tab and the drive slides out easily. There's a sheath around the actual drive (as is the case in most notebooks) that has maybe 6 screws and that pops off easily. The whole process of replacing a drive takes less than 5 minutes. Adding or replacing RAM takes less than 2 minutes. Can you easily get to other components like the CPU or the HSF(s)? Not really. It's not perfect, but I think Apple at least took customer feedback on hardware access into consideration and made some changes based on that.
As a side note, we're rapidly approaching a point where portable devices are going to be designed with absolutely no intention of being user serviceable. As price and size continue to shrink, it'll be impractical to try to repair or upgrade a portable device. You'll just throw it out and buy a replacement. So, enjoy groaning about hardware access while you can. It's going away faster than you think, and I don't just mean for Apple products.
Re:You're doing it wrong (Score:1, Interesting)
When the price of the unit drops by 50% every year, there is no such THING as value.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Interesting)
I find it very telling that Steve Ballmer won't let his kids use an iPod, and Bill Gates won't let Melinda use an iPhone.
I do too: it means Bill has more porn than he can watch in a lifetime. That's only explanation I have for being able to flat-out tell the wife that she can't have something you can trivially afford just because you don't like it, rich guy or not.