Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo 1147
theodp writes "Speaking at a conference in NYC, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer did his best to refan the flames of the Mac vs. PC rivalry: 'Now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction [against Apple],' Ballmer said. 'The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment — same piece of hardware — paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.'"
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Informative)
Apple is the most proprietary system.
So what is the difference?
Microsoft is ideological. Apple has its open source kernel, it has DRM, it sues bloggers, it is more stylish, it makes you appear homosexual, all of everything.
So why do people dislike Microsoft? Is it because the company plays straight evil. Because if lobbies foreign governments and obstructs interoperability and open source policies.
Can get a PC cheaper than a M$ OS (Score:2, Informative)
Rumour has it there's a non-Microsoft OS available for PCs, as well. In fact, I heard something about them having some kind of "year of the desktop" promotion and giving it out for free.
It's called Ubuntu. PCs with Ubuntu Desktop start at $249 [dell.com], which is less than the MSRP of Windows Vista Business OS alone.
Re:and with that same philosophy (Score:2, Informative)
musta been a type-o, i think he meant linux is THE shit. ;-)
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:5, Informative)
How is OS X which is certified Unix (http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html) not Unix?
So is a $1,300 Microsoft "SeniorPC" a Better Deal? (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft is touting $1,300 SeniorPC Packages [microsoft.com]. According to the sales pitch, it's "what seniors want in a PC." Think SteveB feels this a better value than a Mac? :-)
Re:Many differences but... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:4, Informative)
it looks like UN*X but it isn't UN*X
He said of the operating system that has been certified as UNIX.
/usr/local so that's what my installer should do /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow. /etc/group.
In honor of this guy, here's a list of super developer assumptions.
1. My user space software MUST be installed in directories that normally require system level access to add anything too.
2. No one would ever need multiple versions of my software installed at the same time so it's okay if I make them impossible to co-exist
3. People always install software locally and not in a shared directory.
4. People always just randomly spew files anywhere they want in
5. People always have have dedicated home directories for each machine that they might be simultaneously logged into so it's ok for my software to only allow one instance per home directory to be running at a time.
6. No one will ever try to X Forward my app.
7. My software will always be on a host by way of it's packaging system so it's okay for me to require that system to be in a good state with regard to my software's packages before running my software.
8. No one else would ever pick the same names as me for my project's library files. So I don't have to giver people ways to resolve collisions.
9. My user-space program should use a privileged network port.
10. My program can use a hard-wired network port because nothing else could ever want that port and the end-user could never have a need to run it on an alternate port
11. All connections from a given IP are going to be from the same instance of my program.
12. My program needs to have it's own user with a specific username.
13. My program needs to have it's own user with a specific UID.
14. My program's installer can add it's own user by just writing to
15. My program needs to have it's own group with a specific group name
16. My program needs to have it's own group with a specific GID.
17. My program's installer can add it's own group by just writing to
If you think that something that has been certified as UNIX isn't UNIX in all the important ways, those important ways are probably your assumptions, which may have even been on my list. And many of those assumptions might work in the case of a single machine with only one user who is also it's administrator, but will eventually break down. I suggest that if you find OS X, not to be UNIX in the right ways that you take some time, and consider how you opperate and ways to make it more robust.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:5, Informative)
Let me introduce you to the hacintosh [psystar.com]. Macs have been nothing more than commodity PCs in a proprietary case since they switched to the x86/x64 platform.
In the case of notebooks, it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor. However I am going Dell Precision rather than Macbook Pro for my next notebook for two reasons: 1. Dell offers WUXGA resolution and 2) Dell offers a three-button "mouse" (trackpointer and touchpad), and one minor reason (a "powerslice" external battery which will allow the PC to run a full 10-12 hours). The price I negotiated Dell down to is about the same as a Macbook Pro 15 but I'll have a better optical drive, a magnesium alloy case (as opposed to aluminum), more RAM, higher resolution (with RGB-LED backlight!), faster CPU, faster video chipset, backlit keyboard, and no retarded one-button mouse (touchpad/trackpointer). Oh, and accidental damage coverage and three-year warranty with on-site service (although no "tech" will touch my notebook - I will insist on receiving the part only in the event that I need service).
I'd love to have gone with a Macbook even though it's commodity hardware - the Macbook is lighter and they're pretty, but on the other hand, I'm not retarded. I want two or three mouse buttons. Also, I'm not blind. I want high resolution because I design graphics, and now I am getting into embroidery and clothing design for a hobby. I need something better than 1440x900. Heck, my old (circa-1991) Latitude did 1680x1050, and my older Thinkpad had a three-button mouse. Jobs, please enter the new millennium. Most Mac users are at least somewhat computer-literate, certainly more capable than most Windows users, and can deal with a multi-button mouse/touchpad/trackpointer.
Oh, and Ballmer? My real work will be done in Linux. Windows will be only for games and embroidery design (I need to convert from .svg and .ai to .sew), and if I can get the embroidery software to talk to the machine while running under crossover office, so much the better - I may not need Windows at all. :D
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:4, Informative)
and no retarded one-button mouse (touchpad/trackpointer)
The trackpad is a multitouch device. If you place two fingers down and click its a right click. If you place two fingers down and drag its a scroll. Take a look at your notebooks buttons after two years. There's probably a hole worn in to the left button while the others look brand spankin new. I hated the one button crap until I figured that out. Now I have a macbook. I guess I'm tarded now.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Informative)
Of course I don't know, you might have some special need for three physically separate buttons on a laptop, but I'm actually happier using the "retarded" "one-button" (physically) track pad of my MacBook than I ever was with a two-button Windows laptop (yes, I'm a switcher). It's quicker to do a 'right click' with a tap of two fingers (or hold two fingers on the track pad and click) than to point at a specific button to click.
For serious work, I have a multi-button separate mouse which is better than any kind of track pad anyway.
Re:Misdirection (Score:3, Informative)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Informative)
Physically, yes. Functionally, no.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Informative)
That $500 is a bargain, especially when you consider the time it takes to transfer all the programs over to a new system...
Take one apart (Score:5, Informative)
"it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor."
It is most assuredly not true. I have a 2 year old MBP, and I replaced the hard drive last fall.
Let me tell you that is a nontrivial exercise because of a few factors:
1) The case is beautiful, but you must remove 20+ screws and you have to take the entire notebook apart to change the hard drive
2) The screws are very tiny, and the case doesn't really fit together that well. If you don't get just right, the clever magnetic catch doesn't release properly. Then you get to take it all apart again.
3) The cables are held in place with adhesive tape (!!!!) inside.
4) The holder for the hard drive was clearly built for cost and is not well engineered.
5) The wiring overall inside is cheaply done.
6) I've taken apart a Mac Mini, and the construction of the MBP internally is similar.
So I use my MacBook pro, and I like it, but I compared it to the laptop work provided me (a high-end HP).
1) Things like hard drives and memory come apart with no screws. They simply pop out without disassembling
2) There is no tape on the inside of a comparable HP laptop. If you have to disassemble it, it's pretty easy, and there are not 20 screws in the entire machine. The wiring is done far more intelligently.
The HP is simply engineered better than the MBP. Now I'm not saying every HP laptop is well engineered and put together, but the laptops that in the same price range as the MBP are simply better machines.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Informative)
left-click: "normal" click
right-click: context menu
middle button: paste (in non-OSX *nix)
left+right: emulated middle click
yes, I need a three-button mouse/touchpad/trackpointer, or at minimum, a true two-button mouse.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Informative)
Err, They err, they do have UPGRADE written on the boxes.
Actually, they don't. And Apple's license doesn't mention "upgrade" anywhere. What it says is that you are allowed to install _one_ copy of MacOS X on _one_ Apple-labeled computer. Now in practice this means that the installation will be an upgrade, because you will have a very hard time finding a computer that is Apple-labeled, is capable of running MacOS X, and wasn't originally sold with a version of MacOS X installed.
On the other hand, this doesn't make much difference. Either customers have to follow the terms of the license, or they don't. In either case, whether the restriction is "upgrade only" or "Apple-labeled computer only", it is equally valid or equally invalid.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Informative)
The AC was a douchebag, but I have to call shenanigans as well...maybe you meant "circa-2001"? You did NOT have a laptop that did 1400x1050 in 1991. The first Mac PowerBooks's came out in '91, and they had tiny monochrome screens, while the IBM thinkpads had some of the early 10" TFT LCDs. Most computers still used VGA, and were doing what...320x240 or 640x480 at the time?
Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchd [wikipedia.org]
Re:Take one apart (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:2, Informative)
FireWire, video out, and camera conceded. I don't have any use for them, so they didn't matter that much to me. There is a slimline camera attachment available for about $80. Does anybody even use FireWire anymore? As for the GPU, though, you're very wrong. the Quadro FX 570M is an 8600M with fancy drivers -- exactly what the MacBook Pro had at the time, down to the amount and speed of the video RAM. That card was in fact one of the things I was set on getting with my laptop. The case features a lightweight magnesium alloy frame and battery life is competitive with the MacBooks.
The chips and ports you've mentioned cost, I'd guess, about $25 to Lenovo tops. If I *really* needed DVI, I might have looked elsewhere, but at the end of the day there's not nearly enough difference in specs and quality to justify the cost difference between my laptop and a 15" MBP.
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Informative)
Really? I own a wireless Mighty Mouse, and the 2-button feature works fine without having to do what you suggest is necessary. I think it works exactly as advertised.
Re:Take one apart (Score:3, Informative)
That's an old MBP. Look at the new one. A panel you open with a latch, and one screw holding the harddrive in place.
Re:Actually more like $650... (Score:4, Informative)
Anyone who would wear a turtleneck and glasses that only cost $150 together is *obviously* not a mac user.
(I kid... sorta...)
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:1, Informative)
When it was initially released, that was the price [engadget.com].
Re:It seems ironic... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually the mini has found its nieche, it is used by htpc enthusiasts they love this machine due to the fact that it is very low on power consumption (the current model is 13 watts on idle, and 28 watt on full load, and neglegtable on standby)
It is also loved by home server enthusiasts and collocation people due to the same reasons!
The main issue is that there are not too many machines with the same low power/price ratio in the pc arena, I only can remember one from ACER but I am not sure if that one is not even more expensive!
It might be a joke for the average geek but it definitely has found its market and given the monthly sales numbers form amazon it is one of the most successful products in apples computer line up!
The funny thing is that the current mini is not that much of a joke anymore actually it has quite nice hardware, but you get notebook performance, which is enough for many people for the tasks the mini is intended for!
Please learn something and answer later. (Score:3, Informative)
Why don't you learn something, like reading comprehension?
I was using the term "pro" for cards capable of doing 3D for quality and use pro 3D apps vs 3D for speed in games.
As part of comprehension, can you put out where I said anything about speed or gaming?
And I've already said in this thread that the cards usually could be upgraded to the "pro"/quatro version since it was the same GPUs but sold for different markets and that they was marked up in price a lot due to that. And that your laptop price comparison didn't made much sense because of that since the Quatro cards are overpriced.
You did say Bullshit, you didn't knew what I meant in the first place, the Macbook Pro DON'T have a Quadro card [slashdot.org] but it's still just fine for your purpose. As I posted people say the GeForce and Quatro cards are the same. They may be wrong but if so can you cite where they are not?
In any case it's useless discussing it with you since you will always be focused on your opinion/bias and want to interpret things in ways which suits you.
Yeah it's a waste of tyme discussing this with you, because of your bias not mine. I've provided links to back up what I say but all you do is talk without backing it up. If you can't use reason I see no reason to continue.
Falcon