Apple Climbs Into Third Place In U.S. PC Market 1019
Tibor the Hun writes "According to Gartner and IDC, Apple now has between 7.8 and 8.5% of market share. While those numbers are not astonishing, they are not insignificant, and their growth does not seem to be slowing down. Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
Re:Normal People? (Score:2, Insightful)
Astonishing indeed! (Score:5, Insightful)
While those numbers are not astonishing
Not astonishing? A single company, offering a proprietary product*, is outdoing nearly all of several hundred companies combined who build to a given standard! Astonishing indeed!
* - including hardware, OS, and a broad range of application software
"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Insightful)
Geeks? (Score:1, Insightful)
I be a pseudo-geek but I don't like Apple's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing.
Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:3, Insightful)
when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX?
When enterprising Mac users develop it.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
anyone who can't get Windows to run decently should be turning in their geek card already.
Really? Seriously?
Okay. I can get windows to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and a waste of resources. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from windows. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them.
Sounds Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Success!
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when is M$ bashing flamebait on slashdot? Are you new here?
And just because most of us can maintain a windows box doesn't mean we like it - my mechanic maintains my old Land Rover, but it certainly induces headaches.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just because you CAN run Windows doesn't mean you do. In most cases, all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install, and things just work. However, much like hitting yourself with a hammer, just because it's easy doesn't make it a good idea.
As opposed to... (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to Microsoft's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing?
Re:Reaching corollary (Score:3, Insightful)
They're not quite as disconnected as kitten adoption.
The more people that use a non-Windows OS, the less of a monopoly Windows has on the ecosystem, and that will make application developers think about portability and compatibility, which will make more software and services available on Linux.
Vista: Unix's MVP (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The ACTUAL choice is . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never known anyone to buy their first Apple desktop or laptop without trying it out first. Surely they notice the interface is different.
Linus causes plenty of headaches (Score:4, Insightful)
At least Windows users don't have to open a console window and recompile their webcam driver after the monthly patch.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Okay. I can get Ubuntu to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and refuses to recognize the built-in card reader. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from Linux. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them."
What what whaaaaaaat? I'm not allowed to demonstrate you can use that argument for -any- operating suite?
On the up side, the above wouldn't apply to OS X unless I got a clone machine *smirk*
Games and Marketshare (Score:4, Insightful)
I REALLY hope that increased Marketshare will motivate games being ported to OS X. I fear it will have to be at least 20% for that to happen though.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Flame war == more comments == more page hits == more ad impressions.
:)
Besides, instigating an MS-bashing comment flood is like firing up your favorite game and playing through it in 'easy' mode.
So once in a while, even though it's been done before, we get to have an anti-MS free for all, because it's easy. And fun.
My favorite part are the people who complain about trollish summaries, because I get to imagine how their panties got in such a tight knot.
Did the Gartner report have more information? (Score:2, Insightful)
The summaries I've seen indicated that Apple had gotten to 3rd place in terms of hardware sales -- not that people were sticking with Mac OS X instead of Windows on their new machines.
I assume, of course, that a large number of people who buy a Mac stick with the native OS... but I'm not a market research firm, so I don't have to have actual data to back my beliefs :).
Apples and Oranges? (Score:3, Insightful)
These figures just count units shipped in the US, they exclude mini-notebooks and handhelds and don't take into account profitability or unit costs.
If you go by market capitalisation, Apple isn't behind Dell and HP, it's ahead of both, but behind IBM who don't even get a look-in in the units shipped list.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
I converted to Macs a few years ago and found the OS X interface to be the most intuitive I've ever used. The plus and minus signs at the bottom of lists seems obviously to imply add and remove.
Windows always took me a while to learn the nuances. And then another version with a changed interface would force me to learn the changes. But with OS X I typically just ask myself how something should work and there it is, right where I'd expect it.
So far I've found that most people's issues with learning the OS X interface is actually unlearning another interface.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
You didn't see the "?" button on the Accounts pane? Clicking that clearly outlines what you need to know.
The "+" and "-" and similar buttons are used almost universally and consistently throughout Mac OS X, Apple applications and 3rd party applications.
It isn't about being pretty but consistent and directly useful/discoverable without clutter.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Reaching corollary (Score:3, Insightful)
Why do you say that? I see Linux desktop adoption being more likely helped by the success of a non-Windows OS than not.
People use Windows because a) they think it's the only OS and b) they have to because everyone else uses it. If Windows has a big competitor then everyone becomes aware that (a) is untrue and (b) is not only untrue, but the reasons for using the OS your friends, family and boss uses fade away because compatible software and document formats start springing up on multiple platforms.
They're just turning it into an apple monopoly... (Score:1, Insightful)
Apple is as bad or worse than Microsoft in the Lock-In Department. Apple Adoption is not freeing anyone, they're simply changing masters.
The Wireless Barrier (Score:5, Insightful)
Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
As a long-time Windows user who has since switched to both OS X and Linux...
1 - Registry bloat. No other OS keeps app settings and preferences in what really amounts of a gigantic text file. Many apps do NOT remove registry entries correctly (or fully) when uninstalled. Inevitably this file will bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat until it takes forever just to get anything out of it.
2 - System folder bloat. No package manager in Windows, yet things insist on storing dependencies in a shared manner. This is pain, since *nobody* dares remove any library from your system upon uninstall because nobody is sure if anyone else needs it. As you install/uninstall things from your system, this folder will bloat, bloat, bloat. It's incredible how much larger a Windows install can get just 1 year after a fresh reformat.
These things are unavoidable. Your users may well have avoided these issues if their machines were locked like Fort Knox and they were unable to install and tweak to their liking. As a heavy dev who's always trying new tools, the constant install/uninstall cycle takes its toll VERY VERY quickly in Windows, whereas in OS X and Linux the system remains squeaky clean.
Oh, and did I mention that I need admin privileges to do ANYTHING? I can't even install a flash plugin for *myself* without needing full admin privileges to the system. This is lazy programming, and Windows is full of it. If I were a sysadmin I'd be tearing my hair out. It's either: "screw you guys, use the pre-installed software and nothing else", or "have fun with full admin, I'll be here waiting for your f'ed up computer". There's no happy medium.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
No - it means that you're used to Windows or Linux conventions, and are trying to use those conventions in an Apple environment.
It doesn't work that way. I'll be blunt: learning OSX is a pain. There's a ton of non-obvious stuff that is completely different from the Windows world (I'll just point to tabbing between firefox windows when other apps are open as one of my initial pain points), and which have to be re-learned. Remember that first time you fired up Linux? How much stumbling around did you have to do? It's the same thing for OSX. Expecting to be able to navigate all of OSX without ever looking for help anywhere is.... unrealistic.
What I will argue though is that OSX has the smallest learning curve of any new OS. I remember playing around with Linux, and having to root through config files and command line arguments to get stuff to work. Windows was a collection of arcane commands that made no sense, but worked. Compared to that, OSX is a breeze.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost everybody out there, including the true geeks, runs Windows at work because they have to. Linux, Windows servers, XP desktops, Solaris, whatever corporate buys. Everything EXCEPT Macs.
At home we have a Macbook. Why? I don't mind running XP at work, but I'm not shelling out my own dough for Vista. I'd rather give it to Steve.
I think the backlash against Vista, whether justified or not, has caused a lot of people to look at Macs and to some degree Linux.
Re:Normal People? (Score:1, Insightful)
I've had plenty of problems with OSX. Don't let the commercials fool you.
Re:Reaching corollary (Score:3, Insightful)
It may seem like somewhat of a stretch, but once you establish a beachead on the OS marketshare it's easier for businesses to adopt and support other alternatives. They won't have the excuse "Well *everyone* runs windows, so we just need to code/webdevelop for them."
Basically the same thing that happened once Firefox reached a critical share. You can't well ignore 10% of your paying customers. Some companies may then realize that it's to their advantage to use OpenGL, for example, or release applications for all 3 platforms (such as Skype, WoW etc.)
Are you living in 1992? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple has seen these numbers before. They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again. They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share. They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.
I've got my share of -1 postings from ripping Apple but on this you are off base. I think thi would have been true in 1992 but it is certainly not true today. It's a completely different world out there. Personal computers running Windows have become corporate computing appliances, not personal ones, where Apple has doggedly focused on being a personal computer and is imaginatively building a software, service, and shopping stack designed to build a premium consumer brand.
If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.
Apple has double digit growth yearly. Apple stock is kicking total butt right now in a stock market that sucks. I wish I would have bought them a couple of years ago when Jobs first came back... I'd be retired!
Secondly, Apple hardware is hardly anemic. Apple's new PowerMac, for example, is the latest Harperton Xeon and while it might be a tad pricier than the equivalent from the likes of Dell, I guarantee you that the entire service experience, from Apple store to home, is very, very good.
Christ, I'm talking myself into buying a Macintosh... and that's the thing about Apple - you walk into the store, and it reflects the sort of perfection that Americans expect from products.. indeed, Apple has gone beyond even Japanese cars when it comes to the detail of their products...
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
It does "work well" for them. Of course, that means they can generally run the programs they need at a reasonable speed with a minimum of glitches.
So XP works well enough for folks that are comfortable with it. It doesn't have the rich features, deep pool of easy-to-install applications, lightning speed, or sophisticated visual effects that Linux does, but it does "work well" for them.
It's "good enough" for their work -- which is all they're trying to do. That makes it the right tool for the job.
Personally, though, I find working with Windows to feel like fingernails on a chalkboard compared to Ubuntu.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
AP31R0N: I agree. The rest of my family - non-technical people - use it just fine. I've deployed XP to 500 - 1,500 user networks. I've managed XP in many different scenarios.
Usually, problems with Windows only arise when: You download Malware and install it, or you are trying to do something most people won't do. I've had my share of problems with XP but I'm also really trying to do things that only a geak would do. So it breaks sometimes, and I fix it.
It's just popular to bash Windows. It's not perfect, and there's some annoying ass problems with it, but MacOS ain't no saint either.
Re:"Magic 10%" (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is 10% "magic"? This number is significant because that's how many fingers we have?
Because it has reached double digit
double digit is only significant because we have 10 fingers
Re:Sounds Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe you're not understanding the power of being a monopolist. It matters very little what people switch to, so long as it is not controlled by Microsoft. If there are enough players in the desktop OS market so that Microsoft cannot control the direction of the industry and use it to prevent innovation in that and related markets then we all win.
Good or bad we don't want to replace MS's domination of the industry with Apple's, we want t make sure one company doesn't have domination so all the companies have to work for us and keep us happy to make money.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Corrections (Score:5, Insightful)
all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install
This little bit of folklore deserves to die.
1. Got a system restore disk? (Not an OEM-style installer!) Then sure, many minutes later your "my documents" is gone, but you are pretty much back up to day-1 status.
2. Got an OEM installer disk? How many of those disks do not include the drivers for devices like, ohhh your *ethernet* adapter? That is the purest soul-sucking time sink ever.
Apple's installer is pretty great for this reason. I seem to recall it kept my wife's home files intact.
Re:This isn't news (unless you're a fanboy) (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple has seen these numbers before.
Not since 1995.
They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again.
Sales are different different quarters, but year-over-year they haven't been going in cycles for over a decade. They've just been slowly going up. The trick is predicting how high up they'll go, as eventually everyone loses share again.
They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share.
They haven't had market share that high in twenty years, when the industry was completely different.
They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.
I disagree. They want more market share and they're expanding both their PC business and their other markets. Apple is just conservative about expanding into new segments of the PC market, but they've slowly been targeting parts of the market both lower and higher than previously.
If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.
If Apple decoupled their hardware and OS sales they'd go out of the OS business. The desktop OS market is monopolized. Nobody with any business sense is stupid enough to try that. Until MS monopoly is seriously weakened, Apple needs a business plan that bypasses that market.
Never enough market share if you're in 2nd place (Score:5, Insightful)
"Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"
Absolutely not.
Some of you may recall that, back in the late 1980s, the Mac's market share was about 18%. For a period of time lasting into the mid-1990s, Apple was the #1 maker of PCs (IBM, Compaq and Dell rounded out the top 4; HP, Packard Bell, Gateway and a few others fought over the scraps).
If you take into consideration the fact that Macs lasted longer than PCs in those days and Mac users tended to buy more software (claims supported by numerous published Gartner studies), you could make a fair argument that Macs represented as much as perhaps a third of the total installed base and of the potential software market.
This was not seen as sufficient. Throughout the entire mid-80s through late-90s, the PC press maintained a steady drum-beat of, "Apple doesn't have enough market share to survive." Of course Apple's not going to make it if the press keeps telling everyone they can't! Combine this with some of Apple's strategic management blunders, and you have a perfect recipe for also-ran status.
Not that any of this is necessary to ensure Windows' continued market dominance. Most businesses are going to use what other businesses in their industry use. Most people are going to buy for home use what they are comfortable with at work. Windows' prevalence is its own best selling feature. This is why Microsoft enjoys a "natural monopoly", and why it will take a bigger disruptive market force than anything we've seen so far in the past 20+ years to change it.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't comment on the Aperture/network backup issue but...
10.5 has a unified Finder, all windows behave the same at all times... although I think you can still make them unique they default to however you chose to display the last window.
As for the mice... plug in a USB mouse. Its not that hard, and I have never seen one that is unsupported. Additionally, for laptops use two finger clicking. Two fingers on trackpad + click = right click. I find this is even faster/comfortable than having a button since you never have to look or worry about hitting the wrong one.
Similarly, if you are challenged editing text files... well nobody can help you there. Seriously, pico /etc/hosts ? Its not that hard, and there are an abundance of great text editors for the Mac.
I have to say I completely disagree, I used Windows from 3.11 to XP and DOS before those... and in my mere four years of using OS X I have never had a more trouble-free computing experience. The attention to detail is astounding and once you stop expecting it to work like Windows (such as mucking around in obscure settings dialogs) it for the most part DOES "just work" and DOES get the hell out of my way.
As for not finding good open source Applications... I don't understand that either. I've been amazed at the quality of some of the completely free Apps here (Adium, Cyberduck, Colloquy, Drosera, NoobProof, Burn, ClamXav, EZ 7z, UnrarX, MacPar, MAMP, NicePlayer, Max, PureFTPd Manager, Transmission) ... they do a great job following HIG guidelines and I've yet to find a function I couldn't find an App for even though in some cases I do choose to pay for reasonably priced software (Acorn, Cheetah 3D, MoneyWell, LineForm, OmniGraffle, CSSEdit, TextMate, PandoraJam among them...)
No free utilities is a bunch of crap. As for for-pay apps I know this is /. but I find the level of Polish for Mac Shareware a step above that of Windows. Your usage may vary but I hear a lot of unfounded claims...
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
2-4 hours is pretty good going. Of course, then you have to install all the software. Wordpad and Paintbrush aren't going to get you very far.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Assuming you've installed a retail XP with SP2 you now need to do about 60-70 updates or install SP3.
(Not to mention finding the correct drivers for the installed hardware unless like me you are using an ancient Toshiba notebook. Even then, the Microsoft display drivers (notably for S3 in general and some NVidia) are such a POS that you need to find better ones if you want games to work). Then it gets to be more fun - PDF reader, browser, anti-virus , codecs, real alternative, qtlite etc. etc.
You're lucky if you get change from 4-5 hours installing even on a fast machine.
It gets even more interesting upgrading from Vista especially for Acer, HP, Sony notebooks.
Andy
Re:double digit market share growth (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple's stock price has been buoyed not by it's PC offerings, but by iPods, and that only happened after they decoupled them from their PCs and let non-fanboys buy them.
For a while that was true. However, in the past year or two Apple's stock price has been riding the earnings created by exploding growth of their computer offerings. For the last year, growth in ipod sales has been pretty flat.
Apple's hardware selection is certainly anaemic. They have, what, half a dozen models? For the vast majority of the market, their offerings just aren't suitable.
I don't know that I agree with that. The growth in the sales of macs suggests that a lot of consumers are either desperate to get away from windows, or have decided that the models offered in the mac lineup are suitable for their needs. In my experience, macs provide everything the majority of home computer owners need and provide it in a simple and attractive way.
The dissatisfaction with their offerings, in my opinion, comes primarily from gamers (a group not served by the mac lineup) and more technical users who have specific hardware desires and generally want to build their own system.
A lot more people would be willing to shell out a few hundred dollars for OS X if Apple would be willing to sell it to them for the hardware they do want.
This will never happen. Doing that would probably destroy Apple as a company. Remember, they are a hardware company first and their software and services exist to support the hardware.
Re:double digit market share growth (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you vastly overestimate the number of people who want to spend a few hundred dollars on an operating system. If you asked the average person on the street, they'd probably tell you that they didn't even have to buy an operating system, it came for free on their computer.
As for Apple licensing OSX to dell, HP, etc; It'd be foolish for them to expect to get a few hundred dollars per OEM copy of their OS. They'd have to be price competitive with Windows. A non-geek going to dell's website and pricing out two machines identical except for the operating system is going to think that's ridiculous. Looking on Newegg real quick, Vista home Premium OEM is $109. Dell likely pays significantly less. And if MS felt like they were being threatened by Apple, they could lower their prices even more, and Apple would have to follow.
Apple's moving more hardware than they ever have before, and they're doing it with profit margins that the rest of the industry can barely dream of. Why would they want to change their strategy?
Re:Sounds Great (Score:3, Insightful)
A 50-50 split market isn't really that much better. It comes down to the lesser of two evils decision, and both companies will know that the alternative is generally not acceptable to their customer-base and so they're safe.
That's a lot better than now where people just buy computers without even knowing they have a choice (Windows pre-installed is the only thing in the local store). Additionally, think of what a difference a 50-50 split would make to proprietary Web technologies (for example). It would sure kill IE only Web pages and push standards. And it isn't just the Web, but everything. Programs would be written to be portable to different OS's from the start, server technologies would all have to be able to handle standards, etc.
Re:Mac Users are Silly (Score:4, Insightful)
Their "shitty business decisions" as you put it, currently have them placed as the 12th largest company in the US with a market cap of over $152 billion, right behind Google and IBM. As far as marketshare goes, there are steps that they could take to pull closer to Microsoft in terms of OS adoption, but in terms of profitability, they're doing just fine.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
But I have to admit, I've had little to no trouble with MY Windows machine.
Go use anything else for a month or two, then come back to Windows. You will soon see exactly what the GP was talking about. It's a fucking irritating piece of shit, and you don't really understand just how stupid it is until you use something else for a while.
Re:The Wireless Barrier (Score:1, Insightful)
What's harder about it than the Mac OS X situation?
I click on the picture of a disconnected network, and there's a list of Wireless networks. I pick the one I want "Fred's house". It asks for a password, and offers to save the password to my keyring, I say "Fred, what is the password for your wireless?" and then I type in the answer.
Subsequently, if I open the laptop up somewhere and it can see "Fred's house" and no other network it recognises, it connects to "Fred's house" and uses the password from my keyring automatically.
So far I'm not seeing any difference to Mac OS X. Is the problem that OS X wasn't "brain dead easy" but just "brain dead" ?
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Normal People? (Score:2, Insightful)
Your first point is easily fixed by navigating to the View preferences in the top menu bar. Also, each folder should keep the view that was last used. Besides the fact that this isn't a "headache" issue, it's a usage issue, a mere "difference/annoyance" at best.
Your second point, bashing something that does not have a Windows equivalent mind you, because you don't have a firewire cord is silly. How much of a "headache" was it when you bought a new PC and wanted to make it look just like your old PC with just a few button clicks? Oh wait... Seriously unbelievable dude...
Lastly, if you bought your Mac within the last two years, then you have a Mighty Mouse that comes with 4 buttons, all programmable using the Mouse preferences. It is one button by default, but easily changed. If you do not have a mighty mouse, go out and by any X button mouse on the market and plug it in. No driver installs, etc.. it will just work.
If these are the only "headaches" you "suffered" using your Mac, then you completely destroy your own argument. The list of issues for the average user on Windows would make your list look like an Apple commercial.
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Only 1.5 hours? You must not be installing on a laptop, and have a fresh CD that was cut last week.
Installing Windows XP without a pre-made image usually requires the following:
1. Install
2. Download drivers on another machine
3. Install drivers
(about a half-dozen reboots by this point)
4. Install MS patches
(reboot and repeat step 4 a couple times)
5. Now install base software, and its patches
Before you're done, we're talking almost a day of work for a laptop, perhaps half a day for a desktop. (laptops have more obscure drivers to install, and slower hard drives)
Anyone who says Windows is easy to install has either used pre-made image CDs, has only done upgrades, or has never actually installed it.
All computer suck (Score:2, Insightful)
This won't win points for being useful or insightful commentary, but my experience is that if you use your computer for more than typing word documents and surfing the web, you'll run into problems sooner or later. Computers are hard to use, period. And I say this as an engineer and scientist, not a computing neophyte.
Maybe it is an confusing GUI, or a required preference tweak that you shouldn't need to even know about. Maybe it is an incompatibility with a piece of harware or software whose vendors claim should 'just work.' Maybe it is a poorly written or patronizing but useless 'help' feature. All computers show some type of computing evil sooner or later.
Thanks to hard work by a lot of people, I think Windows and the Mac OS are 'equally decent for most tasks'. But let's not pretend either is 'easy to use' or 'good'.
Re:The Wireless Barrier (Score:2, Insightful)
"...and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"
Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.
Last time I checked, NetworkManager is far better than Windows' native wireless client, and the same as or better than Apple's.
Re:Normal People? (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you sure you have that one right? Macs these days are basically Intel boxes with blinky keyboards and bog standard innards (OK, the MacPro innards are pretty neat but memory card risers have been around since at least S-100 bus days).
It's the Mac users that are bat-shit insane (absent myself, of course - I'm OK, just ask my dog).
Do me a favor by designing, building and implementing the clean case, inside and out, motherboard connectors, fans, etc., that's in the Mac Pro, iMac or Laptops they produce and show me the equivalent off-the-shelf clone available to compete against Apple.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
In my experience, frequent installing and uninstalling of software is enough to create problems, even if you don't have the bad luck of installing outright malware. Sooner or later, some sloppy setup program will destroy an important system setting or replace a DLL. Boom. Or if you are less unlucky, the system will "only" become gradually more unstable.
I even remember one case in which Microsoft itself was at fault: Installing Office 2000 disabled a RTF-based help system my colleagues had developed on NT4. It turned out that the Office 2000 setup replaced the RTF.dll, the new one did not fully support our program anymore.
On the other hand, I've seen Windows run very reliably if you stick to a small set of known good applications. Even Windows9x can do well in that scenario, and it is common for non-technical users.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
Almost everybody out there, including the true geeks, runs Windows at work because they have to. Linux, Windows servers, XP desktops, Solaris, whatever corporate buys. Everything EXCEPT Macs.
I guess you have little experience with the educational sector, then. All it takes is ONE instance of a computer virus popping up porn sites for administrators to be really open to alternatives.
Mac OSX is all but taking the educational sector by storm, since education has always been a bit of a stronghold for Macs.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
The mac pro? The one that starts at $2700? You're clearly kidding, right? That's just the base starting point price - upgrades for their ECC RAM start at $500 for 2GB and go up to $9100 for 32GB, and that's for standard DDR2/800 with an ECC (all ECC does is add one extra chip to the memory card and does a simple parity check - logically, that would only add 1/8 of the price of the memory max since there are 8 chips on the card [if you ever wondered where DDR6400 comes from, it's 8 banks of 800MHz and 8*800=6400]). Apple GOUGES for their pro line. It doesn't even use the latest specced hardware (no DDR3, but good DDR2 usually is faster, and underwhelming graphics card choices unless you want the Quadro FX 5600 1.5GB for $2,850.00 (which is close to the going rate for those OpenGL cards). I've used a $9100 configuration before (not the RAM - machine was $9100) and dug around in the insides a bit and was completely underwhelmed. I could rebuild the machine easily for 1/2 that, if not more (barring the case, but I could get a similar case and a decent power supply too).
Their laptops aren't bad, a bit of markup, but some people will pay that for the OS and stuff it comes with (and pretty much everything else is a laptop, and I mean that - iMac is laptop hardware and mini is a micro form factor that is similar to laptops).
I wish they had a mid-tower design with upgradable hardware like they used to, or a desktop replacement laptop base (and by that I mean one with upgradable parts like video - nVidia has the MXM and AMD the AXIOM PCIe standards for their cards), so we should be getting upgradable mobile graphics cards soon (but you'll have to stick to your vendor). If users can add memory, they certainly can change graphics cards.
Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou (Score:5, Insightful)
Think about it. HP sells a consumer laptop for $500 that includes all the bells and whistles, a webcam, shiny media buttons, etc. etc. Then they sell a business end laptop for 3x as much that is slower and has less features. Do you think there is a reason for this?
Consumer laptops are made with the absolute cheapest parts HP can source THAT DAY. Two laptops sitting next to each other on the shelf at the store can have different parts but look exactly the same. The quality control in this situation is, understandably, not good.
Business machines are the same in an entire series. They use good, proven hardware, and every single machine uses the same stuff. That way you can flash the same OS image onto all of them without problems. You can't do that with the consumer stuff.
So when people compare Apple to HP or other manufacturers, keep in mind that it's the business class machines that you should be looking at. Apple doesn't use commodity hardware - they use the same piece in every unit in a series, and they use parts that are high quality and proven to work well.
This is why people think Apple is expensive, when it's actually quite competitive.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
Gotcher back here. I am a bit of an anti-Linux troll 'round here (I like to think of myself as a Linux realist), but the last Ubuntu install I did was 23 minutes from unpartitioned HDD to fully-functional system. That is shit-hot.
OSX seems to take forever to install, but when it's in, it's already usable.
Windows is just the absolute worst for install/set-up time. Just the worst.
Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou (Score:1, Insightful)
Not true at all: Apple is outsourcing as much, as it could - as does everybody these days (bless you to resist, boutique people).
It is time of WARNING, not of SLEEP, that has begun for Apple. Success is always way more demanding.
Mainstream demographics too. (Score:4, Insightful)
"normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
What's really interesting is the demographics of the people who buy Apple computers. You think it would be young people. Not now Apple costomers tend to be much older and much better educated then the average PC buyer. Turns out if you are a 40+ year old professional with a graduate level education you are a prime demographic for Apple's Mac. These people tend to NOT be geeks of "on the fringe" Certainly these people are as full on mainstream as it gets. (and there have the money to buy what they like.)
Re:Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:3, Insightful)
It's bizarre that, with Jobs exerting such obsessive compulsive control over Apple's output, crap products like these somehow slip through the cracks. It's almost like Jobs is schizoid
I think he might be...
I use a Mac; I switched from Linux on the desktop to OSX over a year ago, for work only.
Theres a little quote I once found which explained everything to me... made me *understand* OSX.
Something like:
"OSX is like a idiot-savant; both inspired and retarded at the same time."
Re:Actually those are pretty good innards all arou (Score:3, Insightful)
Probably heat related. Most of the recent Macs seem to run really warm, which is likely because Apple wants to make them as thin as possible while skimping on the cooling to keep them quiet. I predict that a lot of the new iMacs/Macbooks/Macbook Pros aren't really going to last more than a couple years because of this, unless they aren't powered on much.
Re:Normal People? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well one benefit to having the same hardware is you know the OS is going to run without having driver issues. The same cannot be said for the plethora of PC configurations that run Windows.
It would not surprise me at all if everyone that reads and posts on Slashdot has experienced or knows someone that has experienced a Windows driver issue. Can the same be said about Macs? (Yeah, I know that there are a lot less Mac users here than PC users)
Re:Astonishing indeed! (Score:3, Insightful)
Still 10% is comparitivly a drop in the bucket.
Ten percent is halfway to freedom in my opinion. If one in five personal computers are not windows then developers have to start thinking cross-platform and disregard a "windows only" attitude and this will create a big opportunity for people with linux not to have to worry about stuff not working for them.
These are only US sale figures (Score:3, Insightful)
If you RTFA then you will see that the percentages stated are for US sales only and the 3rd place is only from one set of figures. The other set places Apple 4th in the US after Acer.
Looking at worldwide figures they don't even make the top 5. Everytime someone trots out one of these "Apple market share exploding" articles it is always based on highly misleading data. For example the recent article claiming that Apple has 66% of the over $1000 computer market [slashdot.org] ignoring the fact that the 66% only takes into account retail sales and only in the US.
Looking around most high street stores you would be hard pressed to buy a machine that cost more than $1000 and wasn't made by Apple. This isn't because they dominate the market but because they only offer high-price options and sell a disproptionately large amount through bricks and mortar stores opposed to online.
Removing the 'over $1000' filter brings that down to 14% and that is still only including US retail sales.
I am not trying to imply that they aren't doing well or that their market share isn't growing, but haven't we had enough of these flamebait articles with misleading summaries based on incomplete figures?
Re:Normal People? (Score:1, Insightful)
I have a XP SP2 slipstream disc, it takes 18 minutes to fully install (non-automated). Then the only drivers I "have" to install (to actually get everything fully functional), are the sound drivers and the wireless.
After that, everything just works. Of course I can download stuff like the latest nVidia drivers for my graphics card, but I don't "have" to.
Half an hour after sticking the XP CD in, I have a fully functional (albeit not updated to SP3, which I could make a slipstream disc for.) computer that can access the internet.
If I had an hour to install XP and related drivers, I would have a fully updated OS and up to date drivers.
Granted this is a desktop, but saying it takes half a day to install isn't really fact.
positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? uh, no. (Score:3, Insightful)
> and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?
What does that have to do with anything? Why is this question even being asked?
The answer is 'no', obviously. Several reasons. First off, nobody uses Linux on the desktop. Last time I saw the number it was hovering around 1.3%. Neck and neck with Windows 98. Second, the entire user interface philosophy between Macs and Linux are completely opposite. Apple strives for clean interfaces, consistency, and just enough features to make 95% of us happy. Linux doesn't have a cohesive strategy for it's UI. Some of it is decent, but the bulk of it is a mess. Average folks still cannot use Linux.
At least, these days, there's a growing realization of the problem within the Linux community. Distros like Ubuntu are doing they're part to make things better. But there is still a long, long, LONG ways to go before Linux catches up with Windows in terms of usability. And even farther to go to catch up to Apple.
The notion that Linux will benefit from Apple's rise in market share is fiction. Won't happen.
whj
Re:OSX (Score:1, Insightful)
More like, the perfect OS for people who'd rather spend their time USING their own machines instead of MAINTAINING their own machines.