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Mac OS X 10.5.3 To Fix Over 200 Bugs, Coming Soon 165

Posted by timothy
from the in-the-meantime-use-deet dept.
An anonymous reader writes "MacScoop reports that 'Apple has seeded several builds of its Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.3 update to developers during the past few weeks and just seeded yet another one numbered "9D34" earlier today.' The update fixes over two hundred bugs, weighs almost half a gigabyte and should be available soon."
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Mac OS X 10.5.3 To Fix Over 200 Bugs, Coming Soon

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  • I hope it's true (Score:3, Insightful)

    by xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D (1160707) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @09:42AM (#23555213)

    Will they fix Spaces? Make X11 usable?

    Once upon a time, you could buy an Apple product and expect it to work. Then the common wisdom became "as long as you don't get revision A, it should be okay". Now I'm to the point where I'm not even expecting the fucking fourth revision to work properly.

    • by Pope (17780)
      The "Don't buy Rev A." only applied to hardware. Me, I don't see any advantages over 10.4, so I'm sticking with that as long as I can.
      • by allenw (33234)
        ZFS [macosforge.org] was good enough for me.
    • by mortonda (5175)
      Could you clarify what's wrong with them? I use both all the time with no problems.
      • by pauljlucas (529435) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @11:30AM (#23556765) Homepage Journal
        Suppose I have Terminal windows in space 1 and Safari in space 2. I'm currently browsing in space 2 and I now want another Terminal window here in space 2. I Command-Tab to switch to Terminal. I'm immediately brought back to space 1 which isn't what I wanted. I'm forced to create the new Terminal window in space 1 and move it to space 2. Note that if instead I immediately switch back to space 2, Terminal will no longer be the front-most app.


        If I already have a Terminal window in space 2 and want to create another one, this fact doesn't help because Spaces keeps track of the space the front-most window of an application is in. So even if there is a Terminal window in space 2 but a Terminal window in space 1 is more "front-most" than the one in space 2, then when I Command-Tab to switch to Terminal, I'll be brought back to space 1. Again, this isn't what I wanted.

        The current behavior of Spaces whereby it auto-switches spaces or changes what the front-most app is (presumably to be "helpful"), IMHO, makes Spaces broken and unusable. Spaces should never automatically switch spaces nor change the front-most app no matter what (or at least have a Preference to make this the case).

        I've been an Apple fan-boy since my Apple ][plus, but Leopard is the first version of OS X that I thought wasn't very compelling (and kind of broken) on release.

        • The weirdness of Spaces is one of the main reasons I haven't had my department upgrade my laptop yet. Desktop Manager (from berlios.de) pretty much gets it right in all the important ways - why was it so hard for Apple to do the same? I also don't know what I'd do without the mini-outlines in my menubar - it's amazing how much info you can get just from glancing at tiny outlines of the shape of the windows. I can't always remember what I put in each desktop, but glancing at that and I can easily see which a
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Onan (25162)
          I'm curious as to what it is you feel would be the more correct behaviour when foregrounding an application whose windows are on another desktop.

          Are you suggesting that the OS should focus some unknown windows on another desktop that's not currently visible to you? Such that if you were to switch to Terminal and start typing, you would be blinding typing into some unknown window?

          Or are you suggesting that some new application behaviour should be created in which an application can be topped in some general
          • I'm curious as to what it is you feel would be the more correct behaviour when foregrounding an application whose windows are on another desktop. ... Or are you suggesting that some new application behaviour should be created in which an application can be topped in some general sense, but with none of its windows focused?

            Yes. However, it's not really a totally new application behavior. In most apps, I can have them front-most even if the app has no windows at all.

            I have a hard time imagining many case

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by XxtraLarGe (551297)
      Did you ever use OS X versions 10.0 or 10.1? Those two versions of the OS were absolute nightmares. I couldn't recommend OS X over OS 9 until 10.2 came out. I've been using 10.3.9 for quite some time now, and it has been extremely stable. Now we just got a 24" iMac last week and it seems to behave pretty flawlessly EXCEPT my wife's dock seems to disappear every once in a while under her account. I can't duplicate the problem under my account, but I'm hoping this problem will be fixed in the update.
      • Re:I hope it's true (Score:5, Informative)

        by corser (995751) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @12:36PM (#23557811)
        I had a similar issue. I could duplicate it by the following
        1. Turn on full screen visualization in iTunes
        2. Stop the music (or otherwise have iTunes to nothing)
        3. Allow the computer to start the screen saver (or turn off the monitor )
        4. Wake up the screen
        If will now be exited from the visualization but the dock will be missing. My guess is that starting a full screen app sets a flag to hide the dock and the method I describe bypasses setting it back.
        I was able to get the dock back by going into full screen visualization and then exiting it.
        (* trying it again right now to make sure I'm not a liar)
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      For usable X11, install the latest Xquartz [macosforge.org].
    • by mmkkbb (816035)
      I fixed Spaces by not enabling it :)

      I would hope that Apple is rolling up the recent work on Xquartz so that X11 actually works. The Xquartz devs echo this hope, but don't seem to know anything.
  • by kiwioddBall (646813) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @09:45AM (#23555269) Homepage
    Thats some patch! Nearly 500Mb - With 200 bug fixes thats 2Mb or so a bug.. Them bugs are big 'uns! Surely that figure is inaccurate?

    Perhaps it will roll out piecewise like Vista SP1 and take only 65Mb to download on your average machine.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      They might be replacing binary files that they can't run a patch on, or maybe there's some other reason... but regardless you can be reasonably assured that they won't just put 500 Mb download for no good reason.
    • by Ilgaz (86384) * on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @03:46PM (#23560919) Homepage
      It is "developer seed" and "combo". It means, it is not end user version and in mac land, combo means "zero patch, all files updated since 10.5.0 with all language resources".

      Vista/XP does very aggressive patching on windows update. If a Mac general end user who kept his/her system up to date with software update sees 10.5.3 , it will be almost 5x smaller (or even less) than the 500 mb you see.

      Also, "Developer Seeds" may have symbols, debug stuff implemented on them, they are intended for developers and never cleaned up like end user shipments. It is never a "lets download, copy the what's new and leak to some site" kind of file release :)

      I don't want to get in too much details but the Apple's userbase are known to change icons, remove/add languages thanks to unique HFS+ filesystem. On Mac land, you can only trust to binaries to patch. It is another reason why Apple or any Mac software vendor can't ship pure patches except binary patchers. For example, people keep changing safari.app icon, it is trivial on OS X since only the resource portion is changed or they remove languages (not good on Leopard btw) from their applications.

  • Well, if it fixes the airport scanning problem [apple.com] then I'll be a happy bunny...
  • by Thornburg (264444) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @09:46AM (#23555291)
    Just to contrast the "great, because 10.5 has been so buggy for me" posts:

    I've been using 10.5 on two different machines for quite some time now, and I have had not had very many problems at all, and none since the 10.5.2 update.

    • by thegnu (557446)
      I had it locking up pretty severely on my newly purchased MB, but I employed a solid 30 minutes of JFGI'ing, and found some thread with the command that resolved the issue.

      Since then, it's locked up maybe once a month. Which happened more regularly on Linux because of flash and firefox, anyway. Among other things. And actually, NEVER happened on my Windows XP SP2 (and pre-WGA) box, though every time I used it, it made me die a little inside.

      All in all, Leopard is pretty freaking sweet.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by fermion (181285)
      I installed 10.5 the week it came out. I don't normally do this, but I had ne machine was really getting bogged down on the original 10.4 install, and 10.5 was a good excuse to give it a fresh install. Given that it had been three years since the last update, I thought it was a good risk.

      Overall things worked ok. X windows was more or less down, but that is has been a common problem, and I have moved away from depending on X. That said, I don't think 10.5 was functional until 10.5.1. We will see what

    • I've been dual booting from a 10.5.1 drive since 10.5.2 because GarageBand's audio processing of effects is all screwed up.

      It introduced noise when trying the get any echo and/or reverb and generally screwed up recording from my Samson C01U USB microphone.

      Its more of a PITA than anything else. I keep spares of working environments around. (I'd've been screwed if I hadn't learned something in 30 years of doing IT. [Don't trust 'em.])
  • by neoform (551705) <djneoform@gmail.com> on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @09:49AM (#23555329) Homepage
    I know I'm not the only one with this bug, but Apple still hasn't responded to this problem. My software update *always* lists the "Aluminium Keyboard 1.0 Update" as being ready for install, no matter how many times I install the update. It's very annoying.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by FrankDeath (746264)
      I had the same problem. You're not actually completing the installation. Download the fix from Apple's download page (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/) and run the update manually.
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by xlogan (38021)
      I had the same issue with the MacBook firmware update. You have to actually go the file that is downloaded and manually run the update. I believe the link is http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303364 [apple.com].
  • Just 200 bugs? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by grikdog (697841)
    Which 200 bugs are they talking about? Why do they know about 200 bugs? Does that mean 200 users of Mac OS X 10.5.3 have been screwed, if each bug is sufficiently obscure? What is the average user footprint of each of these ten score bugs? Isn't progress wonderful? Now we use statistics and databases to decide how many bugs HAVE to be flushed before users balk and refuse to buy. In the old days, bugs were personally embarassing to the poor sap who perpetrated them during development. I guess we have
    • Re:Just 200 bugs? (Score:5, Informative)

      by 0100010001010011 (652467) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @10:22AM (#23555799)
      OS X uses quite a bit of OSS stuff. There's a good chance that a good portion of these bugs aren't theirs.

      http://httpd.apache.org/security/vulnerabilities_20.html [apache.org]
      I see 3 vulnerabilities in Apache 2 right there.

      My Leopard install is showing "OpenSSL 0.9.7l 28 Sep 2006" while my Debian machine is showing "OpenSSL 0.9.8g 19 Oct 2007". I imagine there might be a few bugs there, and it's late enough that it wouldn't have been released close enough to be included in 10.5.0.

      Lets see in /usr/(s)bin, zip, gunzip, tar, efax, cron, ip6config, postfix, cups. No chance they had any bugs. They're good open source software.

      Responding to you and the guy below, the reason that these bugs are 'so big' is that Apple isn't sending out a bunch of .diff files as updates. If they're upgrading Apache 2 they have to recompile as a universal binary and send out that entire file.
      • by pyite (140350)
        My Leopard install is showing "OpenSSL 0.9.7l 28 Sep 2006" while my Debian machine is showing "OpenSSL 0.9.8g 19 Oct 2007". I imagine there might be a few bugs there, and it's late enough that it wouldn't have been released close enough to be included in 10.5.0.

        Actually, the bug there is in Debian, not OS X. It's rather serious, too, so you might want to check it out [debian.org]. If your machine is publically exposed and running SSH, it might have already been rooted.
    • by weston (16146) * <westonsd@can n c e n t r a l.org> on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @10:50AM (#23556213) Homepage
      Some recent discussion on audio in Leopard:

      http://createdigitalmusic.com/tag/leopard/ [createdigitalmusic.com]

      Now, note in particular that Digidesign's struggles aren't limited to Leopard (see, for example "Digidesign and M-Audio Drivers Fail to Keep Pace with Vista, Leopard, and XP SP3") -- I personally think Digi as a company has a problem. But they're not the only vendor mentioning audio issues in 10.5.2, and there are others like MOTU who haven't been explicitly complaining but have had product release delays (DP 6 was supposed to be out Q2).
    • Re:Just 200 bugs? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Paradise Pete (33184) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @10:51AM (#23556231) Journal
      Which 200 bugs are they talking about?

      Here is a list [apcmag.com]

    • is that bug which requires me to reboot my iMac after every iTunes and/or Quicktime update.
      • by Onan (25162)

        It's frustrating to reboot after quicktime updates, but there is a good reason for it. The whole point of quicktime is that it's a library used by many applications. Changing it out underneath them would, in the worst case, cause inconsistent or unpredictable behaviour, but even in the best case would not give them the benefits of the update.

        Would you rather reboot or have your still-running browser continue to be vulnerable to a security vulnerability that you patched in quicktime months ago?
  • by vapspwi (634069) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @10:02AM (#23555499)
    I recently upgraded my MacBook to 10.5, and have been regretting it. I only use some of the new features (don't really care about Time Machine, one of the biggies), and a lot of stuff that used to Just Work (wireless networking) has become problematic.

    The biggest problem I had, oddly, was with downloading software updates - the downloads would mysteriously stop after a few seconds or minutes (and not due to loss of network connectivity - a Windows box on the same network was able to download stuff rock solid, at the same time), and would never resume. Had to do some kind of Mac voodoo (Restore Permissions, or something like that) to fix it. So I'm a little concerned about even being ABLE to download a 500 MB software update, due to bugs in the software...

    JRjr
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Ilgaz (86384) *
      If you have a broadband connection, act like us, old fashion guys.

      Run Terminal (if you don't want to buy a dl manager), get the "combo" with curl (all OS X 'es have it,pre installed) or use a user friendly extension to firefox like "flashgot" which can use curl. Just launch the installer from DMG.

      The good thing is, you can write it to a CD-RW or USB Key. I always keep last "combo release" on a backup disk replacing the previous one. It is also a great favor to Mac using friends if they come by.

      Another thing
  • Fixes (Score:5, Informative)

    by WilyCoder (736280) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @10:03AM (#23555509)
    Here [apcmag.com] is a compiled list of fixes in 10.5.3.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by oahazmatt (868057)
      Interesting. The Safari bookmark/.Mac Mail account bug is so important they fixed it twice.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by starglider29a (719559)
      I read the list, and my eyes glazed over. I run PShop, Parallels, MSOffice, InDesign, RDC to my server. I thought I worked this poor 24" iMac to death. But I don't even know what 99% of those bugs are. Never been near them.

      What I have seen more of is "Identity Crisis" as I run Parallels, Spaces and RDC. Keyboard shortcuts that do one thing in one environment, do something else in another. Try running IE in Parallels and press F11 to go full-screen. Exposé takes over and ZOOP! Everything heads to th
    • by lpontiac (173839)
      Ooh, nice..

      BSD Kernel and unbuffered i/o no longer hangs


      My understanding is that this is a major factor in miserable performance when starting and stopping virtual machines.
    • by AlpineR (32307) <wagnerr@umich.edu> on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @01:35PM (#23558773) Homepage

      Thank Jobs, they fixed this:

      Text-to-Speech and Hysterical voice no longer causes hang

      Now my business can finally make the switch to 10.5.

  • Friendly Reminders (Score:2, Informative)

    by Spencerian (465343)
    Being an Apple technician, my natural tendency is to avoid new Apple products since they often get a little rushed to market. But yes, some software and some hardware updates later, all is good. My first generation MacBook was a mess. I knew the job was dangerous when I took it...er, bought it. It's a fine system now, 10.5 installed, and one logic board later.

    The biggest problem anyone will have with an 10.4 to 10.5 upgrade is installing 10.5 over the 10.4 installation. Welcome to Pain, here's your pitchfor
    • by ratbag (65209) on Tuesday May 27, 2008 @02:01PM (#23559283)
      And as an anecdotal rebuttal to all that, I've personally updated two machines from Panther -> Tiger -> Leopard and my family at large has done Jaguar -> Panther -> Tiger -> Leopard on G5s, PowerBooks, MBs, MBPs and MacPros, using a wide range of software (we're all photography buffs, one of us is a designer, two of us are developers, one MacPro is still running Tiger). Backup, upgrade. If you have problems, do a clean install. But so far we've done just fine with upgrades, thanks.
    • by Ilgaz (86384) *
      The only issue with 10.4-->10.5 on my 2 Macs was basically Apple hiring everyone with some good CV and Unix background. Looks like they have never thought of tradition of keeping home directory on external firewire/secondary internal disk while implementing such a massive change (Netinfo).

      It can be fixed with "Repair ACL permissions" implemented on the "reset password utility" on Leopard boot DVD easily but that is one thing I figured they aren't very selective hiring people. They should hire people who
  • by Greatmoose (896405)
    I know at least one of the major fixes is an 802.1X implementation that actually works without having to install the Internet Connect App. It's finally going to correctly support 802.1X PEAP w/WEP and WPA, something the previous version of 10.5 did horribly, if at all. Installing the Internet Connect app from 10.4 was a useful workaround, but seemed like a pretty stupid thing to have to do, especially for an apple product. But, as along as 10.5.3 works, my clients should be hapy (if a bit annoyed that it

  • Hmmm, I hope this update works with my Thinkpad T60p Hackintosh! I will of course play it safe and let some other sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H brave soul try it on their box first...

Pause for storage relocation.

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