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Apple Picking a Fight it Can't Win With Safari 589

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the those-who-can-and-will-upgrade-already-have dept.
Ian Lamont writes "Mike Elgan has an analysis of Apple's successes and concludes that the release of the Safari browser for Windows not only goes against the Apple success formula, but is doomed to a vicious failure: 'The insular Apple universe is a relatively gentle place, an Athenian utopia where Apple's occasional missteps are forgiven, all partake of the many blessings of citizenship, and everyone feels like they're part of an Apple-created golden age of lofty ideas and superior design. But the Windows world isn't like that. It's a cold, unforgiving place where nothing is sacred, users turn like rabid wolves on any company that makes even the smallest error, and no prisoners are taken. Especially the Windows browser market. ... While security nerds were ripping Apple for a buggy beta, the UI enthusiasts started going after Apple for the look and feel. Here's a small sample. Apple can expect much more of this in the future. The problem? Safari for Windows just isn't Windows enough.' Elgan also expects that the Firefox faithful will fight the Safari influx — a theory that has been supported by comments from Mozilla executive John Lilly, who criticized Steve Jobs' 'blurry view of real world' just after Jobs announced Safari for Windows."
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Apple Picking a Fight it Can't Win With Safari

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  • Oh look! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 17, 2007 @10:57AM (#19540899)
    Bloggers think they matter again!
    • by catwh0re (540371) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @05:50PM (#19544345)

      "The insular Apple universe is a relatively gentle place, an Athenian utopia where Apple's occasional missteps are forgiven, all partake of the many blessings of citizenship, and everyone feels like they're part of an Apple-created golden age of lofty ideas and superior design."
      that phrase in particular is utter crap and an invention necessary to justify the argument

      It's funny that the author clearly has no idea on Apple at all. In fact the Apple audience are known to be excessively vicious to the Apple company, suing it for the slightest of issues. E.g. Right now apple is getting sued because some users believe the pixels on their displays "sparkle" a little bit.

      Apple have -never- been in some kind of tech utopia where it's audience has willingly blind sided all their mistakes. Geeze, people still wave newtons around at Jobs during keynotes in silent protest.

      Also, while the blogger believes that no one is interested in safari.. it seems to be downloading it's pants off. (So it seems that people are even interested in just having a look, which is contrary to this impenetrable wall of windows browsers that they author conveys.)
      I think the author needs to get used to seeing safari around, especially once iPhones start browsing the web.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by gkhan1 (886823)

        I think the author are referring to the Apple fanboys that go on messageboards and discussion-sites (like, say, slashdot) and defends Apple to the teeth, claiming that the safari-browser is really catching on, despite a bogus downloading number and the mountains of criticism it it has gotten. You know, the type that claims that apple fans really are the greatest computer users ever, that they do hold apple up to a huge standard that apple (and only apple) can possibly meet! It's not only apple that's the gr

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by coolGuyZak (844482)

          One could say the same for linux users and their operating systems, particularly on slashdot. ;)

          I acknowledge that I am quite the Apple Fanboy, but there's a good reason for it. I've used Windows (3.1 to XP Pro), Linux (from Gentoo to Ubuntu), Open & FreeBSD, and a few other operating systems that I presently can't recall. I haven't looked back since purchasing my MacBook. While I won't contend that only Apple can give me this experience, I do contend they're the most successful thus far.

          Furthermore,

    • by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @07:20PM (#19544987)
      Most people that buy iPhone will be Windows users. iPhone does not have IE. It has Safari, so it is important to get more people used to the idea that Safari is a real web browser. Without that, many people will have a mental block that iPhone does not have IE.
      • by LWATCDR (28044) on Monday June 18, 2007 @10:10AM (#19550299) Homepage Journal
        Ummm... Just how many people around the world use Opera on their cell phones but have never seen it on a PC? A lot of people use Treos and most of those don't run IE. The W models do now but a lot of them don't.
        If that is the reason Apple did it then it was a blunder of and epic level.
        Safari on the PC is currently inferior to IE and FF!
        It doesn't look like a native application.
        It lacks a spell checker.
        It lacks ad blocking.
        Love it or hate it it doesn't use Windows font rendering.
        It didn't import any of my bookmarks.
        No Linux Version unless you count Konqure.

        If you think I hate Safari on Windows you are wrong. It does seem to run javascript heavy sites very fast and I have not had any real compatibility issues with it. It looks like it has a very standards complaint rendering engine as well.
        It may get people coding for standards instead of IE. Firefox has helped with that a lot but there are still idiots that code only for IE!

        So why Safari? My guess is to offer a Windows environment for widget development but also to give Microsoft a poke in the eye for dropping IE for the Mac. Consider this a shot over the bow warning Microsoft that if they snub the Mac enough that Apple will start attacking Microsoft on their home turf. Maybe Apple is working on an Office killer? Microsoft is having enough trouble with OO.org. Imagine if Apple started improving OO?
        Vista is a disappointment, I don't think the latest and greatest office is setting the world on fire, the Zune isn't making big headway with the iPod crowd, and the new IE while an improvement isn't a FF killer. The last thing Microsoft needs is Apple adding it's talent to OO.org!

        I keep hoping that Apple will fix the problems so that we do have a lovely third browser choice for Windows.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by alisson (1040324)
      DRATZ! You beat me to it.

      It was really interesting, in that he has no idea what he's trying to say.

      Safari on windows will do exactly what apple wants: Get another ~1% of the market-share, make things easier on native apple users, and create a nice alternative to FF/IE/Opera/Gecko
    • I repeat (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Overly Critical Guy (663429) on Monday June 18, 2007 @05:30PM (#19557095)
      IT'S AN IPHONE DEVELOPMENT PLATFORM.
      IT'S AN IPHONE DEVELOPMENT PLATFORM.
      IT'S AN IPHONE DEVELOPMENT PLATFORM.

      Goddamn tech journalists and their ratings-driven "story templates." People are reading way to much into this. Safari for Windows is an iPhone development platform, not picking a fight.
  • by pyite (140350) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:01AM (#19540923)
    It's not about winning. Giving how Apple has decided to let apps be developed for the iPhone, Safari on Windows effectively serves as a development environment for non-OS X developers who want to deploy iPhone apps. And in the end, even 5% total marketshare for Safari is good because it pushes web standards just a little bit more.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by OS24Ever (245667) *
      Amen.

      The number of places I felt some respect for their ability have really bummed me out recently. Leo Laporte's rant on the latest Macbreak Weekly about how it's some new lock in for non-open standards was very disappointing. This article is just a Dvorak style 'bash apple and draw attention to me from the fanboy's' type article, not worth the bandwidth.

      It's always amazing when Apple announces something new with little/no detail behind the motivation and everyone assumes their either going to Die, or tr
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by pyite (140350)
        Leo Laporte's rant on the latest Macbreak Weekly about how it's some new lock in for non-open standards was very disappointing.

        That really bothered me. And he and Andy Ihnatko [cwob.com] kept going on and on about until Merlin Mann [43folders.com] was basically like "Um, do we have any reason to believe its proprietary?" (links added in case people don't know who they are). Leo's usually not like that, and it surprised me, a lot. I wonder what pushed him in that direction.
      • by Simon Donkers (950228) <info AT simondonkers DOT com> on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:18AM (#19541117) Homepage
        Maybe when Steve Jobs showed a pie chart of the browsermarket and his vision in his presentation it was an indication of Apple's motivation.

        John Lilly, Mozilla's chief operating officer, focused on the part of the Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC) keynote where Jobs spelled out existing browser shares of Microsoft Corp.'s Internet Explorer, Firefox, and Safari -- 78%, 15% and 2%, respectively -- before displaying another pie chart that showed Safari with about a quarter of the market, IE with the remainder.
        From Computer World [computerworld.com].

        So Steve wants to claim 25% marketshare in the browsermarket and kill Firefox, Opera and the rest in the process. When they release a version that will work for me I'll be happy as that means I can test websites for compatibility without having to buy a Mac. However if they are trying to gain a 25% marketshare they have a very long way to go and I very much doubt they can squash Firefox out of the picture so easily.
        • by jZnat (793348) * on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:41AM (#19541271) Homepage Journal
          I think it would have been a more interesting slide if he swapped Safari and IE's positions in the first chart to make the second chart, therefore putting Safari at 74%, Firefox at 20%, IE at 12%, and other at 2% or something like that. Now that would have been looking ahead! However, I'd rather we don't have any web browser taking that sort of market share ever again in order to promote open standards with an open process (which means the W3C has to open themselves up a bit to the public when developing new web standards).
    • by adam1101 (805240) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:16AM (#19541099)
      I don't know why this meme of "Safari, the iPhone SDK" has suddenly become so popular, but Jobs himself has said in his keynote that they really want Safari to get a much bigger market share. Interestingly, on his slides his projected market share gain came mainly at the expense of Firefox and others, rather than IE.
      • by pyite (140350) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:27AM (#19541183)
        I don't know why this meme of "Safari, the iPhone SDK" has suddenly become so popular, but Jobs himself has said in his keynote that they really want Safari to get a much bigger market share.

        I think you can throw that under the heading of Reality Distortion Field [wikipedia.org]. I think it's a ploy to take attention away from the sucky fact that the only "apps" they're allowing on the iPhone are web pages. Oooh, innovative.

        • A little more (Score:4, Informative)

          by SuperKendall (25149) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @04:30PM (#19543627)
          I think it's a ploy to take attention away from the sucky fact that the only "apps" they're allowing on the iPhone are web pages. Oooh, innovative.

          Can you automatically pull up maps or dial phone numbers from pages you browse on your cell phone?

          Perhaps there is a little more there than you think in the way of innovation.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Goaway (82658)
          So, uh, making a phone that runs apps like everybody else's is innovative, but making a phone that uses the web and javascript for apps, which nobody has done before on a phone, is not innovative?
      • by Admiral Ag (829695) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:32AM (#19541217)
        I don't understand the problem.

        A lot of Windows users downloaded iTunes, even though they didn't have an iPod. A lot of people just like it (and of course many people hate it). The same will probably be true of Safari.

        There are of course many things to fix, but it is a beta. I'm guessing there will be a few people who want a simple, easy to use browser without endless sets of extensions and widgets. I was that person years ago when a simple browser called "Phoenix" was released, and that's why I used it. Now Firefox is not the simple browser it used to be.

        Of course /. posters and other tech people who love complicated software with millions of customization options aren't going to like it. But for many people less is more.

        FTR I now use Omniweb, which was well worth the small registration fee.
        • by Oktober Sunset (838224) <sdpage103&yahoo,co,uk> on Sunday June 17, 2007 @12:33PM (#19541619)
          A lot of windows users downloaded iTunes because they bundled it with Quicktime, and you had to find a tiny link the size of an ant's toothpick to get Quicktime on it's own. So all the poor chumps who just wanted to watch some .mov file had to download iTunes even tho they didn't want it.
          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by Dogtanian (588974)

            A lot of windows users downloaded iTunes because they bundled it with Quicktime
            Even if you didn't install iTunes with Quicktime, the latter tries to get you to install iTunes whenever it notifies you of an upgrade anyway. (The window includes a ticked-by-default "install iTunes" option.)
        • by davmoo (63521) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @01:13PM (#19541917)
          I love tech, but I'm going to surprise you and agree with you. I want a browser that browses web pages...and nothing more. I don't want it to handle my email, I don't want it to handle RSS feeds, I don't want seven hundred and eleventy million plugins. I just want a fucking browser.

          Simplicity is why I switched to Firefox and Opera from MSIE in the first place. And now both Firefox and Opera have expanded to become the same bloated fatware as MSIE. And Firefox has become just as buggy also.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by at_slashdot (674436)
      It's not only this but Apple provides this way consistent experience to people who will buy iPhone but don't have a Mac, those people will be able to use the same browser across their platforms... what's so hard to see that this is the main objective?
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by 644bd346996 (1012333)
      It's not quite even that. The real problem is that, in the Windows world, everybody thinks "winning" means world domination. In reality, so long as Safari does what Apple needs it to, that is a win for Apple.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Tickletaint (1088359)

        The real problem is that, in the Windows world, everybody thinks "winning" means world domination.
        This is the heart of this particular issue, I think, and also very telling of the cultural divide. I've never understood the PC world's obsession with market share either.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      I'm not a web developer, so maybe I just don't understand the realities but these two statements seem contradict each other:

      Safari on Windows effectively serves as a development environment for non-OS X developers who want to deploy iPhone apps. And in the end, even 5% total marketshare for Safari is good because it pushes web standards just a little bit more.

      If Safari is so standards compliant, why does would developers need Safari on Windows to develop for iPhone? Couldn't they just use another stan
  • by nattt (568106) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:01AM (#19540931)
    "But the Windows world isn't like that. It's a cold, unforgiving place where nothing is sacred, users turn like rabid wolves on any company that makes even the smallest error, and no prisoners are taken. Especially the Windows browser market." a statement totally disproved by the fact that IE is still the #1 PC browser and it's a pile of crap with holes so big you could drive not just a Safari, but the whole of the African plains through it.

    It seems that the author is holding Apple to a standard that not even the mighty giver of life to all, Microsoft, (praise be upon it), is held to.
    • Bundle it (Score:3, Insightful)

      by porkThreeWays (895269)
      Apple has the advantage Microsoft does. They have the ability to bundle. Just bundle it with iTunes or any of their other windows software that's more popular. Make it the default browser at the time of install and I bet you a lot of people will leave it as their default browser. It's underhanded, but no less than anything Microsoft has ever done.
  • by herman0221 (623834) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:03AM (#19540947)
    Apple didn't release Safari for Windows to compete - it was released so that people can develop their Web 2.0 apps for iPhone...
  • by attemptedgoalie (634133) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:03AM (#19540949)

    As I understand it, the release of Safari to the Windows platform allows people to develop and test applets that should work on the iPhone.

    Was there really a plan for Safari doing well against Firefox and IE?

    It just seemed to me the best way to release a product that helps increase use of another product. Safari isn't going to make anybody any money. iPhone will make Apple a boatload of money if the product and attached cellular service are decent.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Timesprout (579035)
      From Apple [apple.com]

      Apple Introduces Safari for Windows Public Beta Available Today for Mac Windows

      WWDC 2007, SAN FRANCISCOJune 11, 2007Apple® today introduced Safari 3, the worlds fastest and easiest-to-use web browser for Windows PCs and Macs. Safari is the fastest browser running on Windows, based on the industry standard iBench tests, rendering web pages up to twice as fast as IE 7 and up to 1.6 times faster than Firefox 2. Safari joins iTunes® in delivering Apples legendary user experience to both

  • Umm, what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheRaven64 (641858) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:03AM (#19540951) Journal
    Safari on Windows has five purposes:
    1. To make it easy for web developers to test their sites with Safari.
    2. To make it easy for web developers to write iPhone web-apps.
    3. To remove the cap on Safari's market share, so that 'it must be even smaller than the Mac market share' is no longer an argument for not supporting Safari.
    4. To let potential switchers see that the Internet will work on a Mac, even though it doesn't have the big blue E.
    5. To ensure that Apple is the one bringing the first mainstream WebKit-based browser to Windows, now all the porting work has been done (by Adobe).
    Which of these is the fight that Apple can't win?
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by UbuntuDupe (970646) *
      And when it crashes every time on startup, how does it accomplish any of that?
      • Don't forget the B-word.
      • And when it crashes every time on startup, how does it accomplish any of that?

        I have the same problem; crashes every time I try to launch it. It gets only as far as displaying the menu and address bars. I've uninstalled/reinstalled it, to no avail. It crashes sometimes on my iMac as well. Safari definately has some issues that Apple should address.

        -psc
        • Re:Umm, what? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by shawnce (146129) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:30AM (#19541199) Homepage
          Take a look at the following and make sure to file defects...

          Safari Beta 3.0.1 for Windows [webkit.org]

          Several of the issues appear to be in the foundational libraries which Apple ported from Mac OS X and not in Safari or WebKit themselves. The beta is testing more then just WebKit or Safari on Windows.
    • by ancientt (569920) <ancientt@yahoo.com> on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:30AM (#19541205) Homepage Journal

      Okay, there are 5 good excuses to release Safari, but I think that is what they are, just excuses.

      I think the main reason, the real reason, is advertising. Everybody who reads "Why you don't need Safari" or "Safari vs IE" or anything like that at all is reading the equivilant to "Apple competes with Microsoft." Even people who never read anything more than a headline will think of Apple as a competitor next time they get ready to buy a computer. There are dozens, maybe hundreds of other good effects for Apple, but the core is that their main products, iPods, iPhones and Macs make more sales.

      Go Apple.

      Disclaimer: I do not own and have never owned a Mac (though I have used and supported them.) I secretly hope that Apple will release an i386 open source release some day.

    • by suv4x4 (956391)
      Which of these is the fight that Apple can't win?

      this one [duggmirror.com]
    • The "iPhone SDK" argument keeps being put forth by Dave Schroeder and other Apple defenders and it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Aside from anything else, Jobs himself contradicted this argument when he presented the browser at WWDC, going so far as to predict an intended 25% marketshare at some point in the near future.

      Even if the argument was to be taken seriously, as an SDK Safari sucks. The UI is designed to be a close clone of the Mac version, it's not possible to force the browser to work in

    • Re:Umm, what? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by owlnation (858981) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @12:18PM (#19541497)
      you could also add, since the default home page of safari is to apple.com, and since this move got lots of free Apple advertising ...

      6. To advertise Apple and increase awareness of Apple products and services in general.

      Again, as you rightly state, not a fight that Apple cannot win -- in fact this task has already been achieved.

      Has to be said, all in all this has to be one of the worst thought out articles on /. this year.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Afecks (899057)

        you could also add, since the default home page of safari is to apple.com, and since this move got lots of free Apple advertising ...

        Let me go out on a limb here and say that anyone that has Safari already knows about Apple.com. How else would they get the fucking browser?
  • by chriss (26574) * <chriss@memomo.net> on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:03AM (#19540953) Homepage

    It's a cold, unforgiving place where nothing is sacred, users turn like rabid wolves on any company that makes even the smallest error, and no prisoners are taken. Especially the Windows browser market. ...

    Unforgiving the smallest error? Let's check the market share of IE again ...

    Seriously, I wouldn't expect Safari to become a major force on Windows, I don't think that even Apple expects a lot. But to claim that the Windows world is driven by quality while the Apple world is cozy is just stupid. IE was crap for years and Firefox is still at 10% market share. Most people stick with what they know (usually Windows), so the amount of "switchers" we see is a sign that quality actually can work for people who look somewhat further, but most people never do.

    • Unforgiving the smallest error? Let's check the market share of IE again ...

      That statement does have some merit if you are a third-party Windows development house. Windows is MS' own personal playground so they have more latitude to make a hash of things. This isn't true of anything that directly competes with either an MS product or one of the biggies like Adobe and Intuit. The people behind Opera seem to understand this.
  • no competition (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TRRosen (720617) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:04AM (#19540967)
    They must be right no one could make a browser thats better then IE.....except for maybe Apple, Mozzilla, Opera, Konqueror.
  • Microsoft has got the same crap for doing bad ports for Apple. Eventually they stopped trying to port apps to that platform. Maybe it became too much of a pain. I expect Apple to not have learnt from Microsoft's mistakes here and will do the same. Do I really expect Apple to keep up doing this and release frequent patches to the Windows port, and doing a Safari 4 and 5 for Windows too? I don't really think so.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by TRRosen (720617)
      Of course Apple will keep up with the updates for safari for windows. it has for years! The thing most people forget is that 90% of Safari had already been ported to windows. Safaris rendering is done with webkit(based on Konqueror). This was ported to windows long ago to support the ITMS portion of iTunes.(All rendered in webkit).

      People use IE because its there. but look what Apples doing...bundling Quicktime/iTunes/Safari in one download. a whole lot of people are going to have Safari..there already...b

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by wootest (694923)
        No, the iTunes Store does *not* use WebKit. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/200 4 _06.html#005666 [mozillazine.org]

        The bundling is awful. The only technically required bundling is QuickTime with iTunes, since iTunes depends on QuickTime. At least now it's fairly public what you get - I remember when you had to hunt around for the "QuickTime only" link. Those kinds of tricks aren't just Microsoft-bad, they're Real-bad. ;)

        Safari for Windows is a blessing for web developers. Up until early June, three of the four m
  • Apple may believe that it can enter and dominate at least the "alternative" Windows browser market as it did the media player space. But this is an entirely new and unfamiliar world for Apple. Direct competition on a level-playing field that Apple doesn't control just isn't Apple's thing.

    Safari on Windows will fail.

    I didn't think that Apple was trying to get marketshare in the Windows browser world. Safari is there to provide a means for developing iPhone apps was my understanding.

    Is Elgan trying to create

  • They seem to think Apple's reasoning for releasing Safari on Windows is to somehow take on Internet Explorer on its own turf. However, this is not the case.

    Most likely, Safari was released on Windows to promote the iPhone. Sort of a way of saying "this is what you *could* be getting if you had an iPhone". Also, Apple knows Windows-based iPhone developers are going to want to take advantage of their so-called "sweet solution" for 3rd party apps. Safari provides these developers with the necessary runtime env
  • by BladeMelbourne (518866) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:07AM (#19540991)
    FUD.

    I will use Safari frequently for development. And when I can (in an upcoming release) specify a proxy server (to get rid of advertisements) I will use it more often.

    I am not an Apple fanboy, and I even had font issues with Safari on Windows. The problem is now fixed.

    Mike Elgan can go back into his hole - I don't give a crap what FUD he wants to spread. It sounds like there is not enough fresh air circulating in his mothers basement... either that or he is endorsing company blog "clog" spam.
  • by LS (57954) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:07AM (#19540993) Homepage
    There may be another reason besides iPhone development that Safari has been brought to Windows. If you are a Mac user, you should know that Safari still doesn't work on a lot of websites, forcing you to use an alternative browser. Perhaps if Safari even got only 5% market share on Windows, the combined amount of safari installations out there would be enough for most commercial sites to make sure their pages are safari compatible. This would benefit Mac users as well, and drive more people to stick with Safari instead of installing Firefox, Camino, or Opera.

    LS
  • Safari/Win32 serves two purposes:
    1. It allows web developers to verify that their web sites work with Safari, which is important to both the OS X and iPhone platforms since most developers don't have an extra Mac kicking around for testing. It's clear that Safari/Win32 was designed to render as close as possible to the native OS X version as possible, right down to the font rendering.
    2. It allows people who are curious about OS X to try out a fundamental OS X application, and in that case you'd want that expe
  • Pussy Critics (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Doc Ruby (173196) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:11AM (#19541041) Homepage Journal
    Athens wasn't some pussocracy where "missteps [were] forgiven". It ruled a Greek empire by serial mass murder, like anyone else, even though it was eventually defeated by its infamously singleminded military rival Sparta. It invented the democracy on which ours is loosely based, featuring corrosive public (and private) debate that defined our arts of rhetoric and logic.

    Apple isn't a pussocracy, either - smart people there survive up against Microsoft's monopoly by their wits, in the market, periodically revolutionizing it. Getting Athens and Apple so wrong discredits the rest of Mike Elgan's analysis. If you're going to argue from caricature analogy, only cartoons will be persuaded. If you're making such a discreditable attack on an absent target too busy to spend time debating your niche, you're a pussy.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ScrewMaster (602015)
      Athens wasn't some pussocracy where "missteps [were] forgiven".

      He probably meant to say, "Olympian" rather than "Athenian", although even the Gods had their problems.
  • by pw700z (679598)
    I basically boot into OSX to test stuff in Safari. My MacBook Pro is essentially a Vista laptop, and the best PC I have ever owned. Now that Safari works in Vista, i have no compelling reason to boot into OSX. If someone comes out with a vista laptop as nice as a MacBook Pro, then apple will really have something to worry about. Safari on Windows means OSX has become less compelling for me!
    • by Carrot007 (37198)
      Then you were either never apple's target or you are deluding yourself.

      Either way, get over it.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by amyhughes (569088)
      I'll bet there are... dozens of people like you, who use OSX only to test web apps in Safari. This is a market Apple can't afford to lose!
  • by pohl (872)
    But the Windows world isn't like that. It's a cold, unforgiving place where nothing is sacred, users turn like rabid wolves on any company that makes even the smallest error, and no prisoners are taken.

    The most amusing aspect of romanticizing the cold cruelty of the windows world is how none of it seems to be directed it Microsoft itself. Or, at least effectively directed at microsoft.

    That aside, I think it's premature to pretend that we know the strategy of the Safari/Windows release at this point.

  • His comment is way off base, another so-called "anaylst" who hasn't a clue.

    Safari is not on Windows to grab marketshare in the Windows browser marketspace.

    Safari is on Windows so that apps written for Safari on the iPhone can also be run on Windows. Apple is beginning to do what Microsoft greatly feared Netscape was trying to do, i.e., make the underlying OS disappear and make the browser the application platform.

    Isn't that what all these Web 2.0 AJAX apps are all about?

  • every non-IE browser out there is a victory for web standards in general.
  • The inability for Safari to have plugins keeps me firmly rooted in the Firefox cause. I enjoy Adblock Plus and Tab Mix Plus. I can't get that kind of functionality on Safari.

    That said - Safari isn't here to win the fight right from the start. iTunes required a bit of time and effort on the part of the Apple developers to turn it into the powerhouse media player that it is today (both on Mac and Windows).

    Yes I'm a Mac fanboy but hell, I'm typing this on a Windows laptop using Firefox. Apple gets many thi
  • Too many years of having to do it the windows way. This is nice.
  • by postbigbang (761081) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:55AM (#19541359)
    So of course he might have a few of his own prejudices.....

    One more browser on Windows doesn't hurt anything. Because Safari is based on K, it's tougher to smack down with silly code crunches, although they shouldn't have released it until they tested it JUST A BIT MORE. How embarrassing to release a browser that has to have six patches on its first freaking release day.

    But Elgan is wrong about Apple. His background at Windows Magazine and HP's in-house organ haven't given him much insight into the seige mentality at Apple. It's plainly been a survivor mentality with a few stellar successes and a few big craters. I wouldn't leave it to Elgan, however, to comment on Apple's mentality when he's clearly been a bit of a stooge of the Windows mindset.

    Look at iTunes, QuickTime, and other cross-platform Apple successes, just like Microsoft has theirs (Office and Entourage for the Mac). More competition is good.
  • by flyingfsck (986395) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @12:13PM (#19541457)
    So how much is this 'war' costing Apple? They simply recompiled Safari and released it for free on a web server, at a total cost of what - $10,000? It is probably the cheapest Apple advertisement campaign ever.
  • by Quiet_Desperation (858215) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @12:38PM (#19541653)
    "Madness? THIS. IS. AAAAAAPPLE!"

    (Cut to shot of Mike Elgan getting kicked down a well)

    LILLY: "The thousand domains of the Windows Empire decend upon you! Their popups will blot out the sun!"
    JOBS: "Who the fuck are and why you in my parking spot?"

    POGUE: "History will remember that one browser stood against a the pile of shit that was Internet Explorer"
  • Not Windows Enough (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gig (78408) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @01:25PM (#19542019)
    > The problem? Safari for Windows just isn't Windows enough

    That is not the problem, that is its greatest feature. Same as iTunes.
  • Excuse me? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by toetagger1 (795806) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @01:43PM (#19542151)

    (Windows is) a cold, unforgiving place where nothing is sacred, users turn like rabid wolves on any company that makes even the smallest error, and no prisoners are taken

    If the people are willing to live with Microsoft's products, I'm sure they will be more than happy with those of Apple as well, and quality doesn't seem to be the most important factor today.
  • by stefaanh (189270) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @02:03PM (#19542331)
    Pfff, just what we need, loads of hysteria over a browser that is only a week out in the wild.

    Why do we need all those fortune tellers? "Why Microsoft's Zune scares Apple to the core" is of the same author (a former editor of Windows Magazine). The other guy, a man who wrote "Has Apple tripped up with Safari?" had his previous blog entry explaining how to run XP Solitaire under Vista!

    Should it really mean that Safari has a chance then? hmmmm. Being standards compliant is one of the virtues of the little beast.

    Hey folks, it's just one amongst the browsers. Mac OS X runs more than a handfull of browsers. Do we hear mac addicts scream in agony over so much choice? No. So why go berserk over Safari for Windows?

    Move on, use your browser and be happy.

  • by NDPTAL85 (260093) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @02:47PM (#19542725)
    It looks to me like a bunch of folks are afraid of Apple's Safari achieving success on Windows. Especially the Mozilla folks.
  • it's an iphone SDK (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Shaheen (313) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @09:15PM (#19545649) Homepage
    people lament that Apple didn't release an iPhone SDK. however, they did - it's Safari. that's the only reason they ported it to Windows. this isn't a bid for browser market share; it's a bid for mobile developers.
  • by swschrad (312009) on Sunday June 17, 2007 @11:42PM (#19546599) Homepage Journal
    you think safari, which is basically mozilla with a mask, is going to whomp The Original Zilla and MSIE all by itself? I'll bet apple doesn't. safari is probably the devkit for the iPhone. you know, as in "let everybody interconnect and make my little toy another billion seller?"

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