Apple Responds to iTunes Spying Allegations 385
daveschroeder writes "According to MacWorld and BoingBoing: 'An Apple spokesman (reliable word has it that it was Steve Jobs himself) told MacWorld that Apple discards the personal information that the iTunes Ministore transmits to Apple while you use iTunes. [...] Apple tells us that the information is not actually being collected. The data sent is used to update the MiniStore and then discarded.' Apple also has a knowledge base article, which apparently was available the day iTunes 6.0.2 was introduced, explaining the MiniStore behavior and how to disable it: 'iTunes sends data about the song selected in your library to the iTunes Music Store to provide relevant recommendations. When the MiniStore is hidden, this data is not sent to the iTunes Music Store.'" The discussion about this topic was fast and furious yesterday.
In retrospect ... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you install a piece of software and it starts to gathering information about you, it's called spyware even if there's some magic button combination or option that turns it off. Until it is turned off, it's spyware. I don't understand why the default setting isn't "off" but I guess that was Apple's decision and now they'll catch flack for it.
Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:1, Insightful)
If it is defaulted to OFF that is better, but if it is turned on it should have a pop-up telling you that your music selections are being tracked by Apple and how to turn it off.
The other issue is that people just don't trust large corporations to store/save/erase the data from their customers.
Just because Steve Jobs says its so, doesn't necessarily mean it IS so.
FYI to quickly disable it, hit Shift-Command-M
If the word was reliable... (Score:5, Insightful)
If it were Microsoft... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:This is just fud (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if iTunes spied on the music you ripped then that might be news, but still not that important. I mean all they'll do is say "people who have Take That mp3s also buy other tasteless crap" etc.
In short, yes, FUD.
not actually being collected (Score:5, Insightful)
Release the source of the server app and then we might believe you. We've all heard the "not actually collected" bit many times. Sony first tried to deny this particular privacy invasion in their rootkit, yet later they were caught out. Unique URLs combined with IPs, what more do you need?
Frankly, if I were writing such a service, logging some of the most financially valuable market research you get your hands on is a given. There wouldn't be any debate on the issue, you log it and sell it! And if you are morally sound, you offer it as an opt-on program and be honest about it.
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:3, Insightful)
nothing new here (Score:4, Insightful)
it's all about tayloring for each customer.
provided Apple is not *sharing* this data with 3rd-parties, I don't find anything wrong with internal data mining.
Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:3, Insightful)
So browsers are spyware too by the attitude some people are taking here.
In other words defining as spyware is not a black and white picture. It's shades of grey and in this situation I see iTunes as pretty white.
Re:This is just fud (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever google band information about a band you're listening to? That is more likely to capture data about you than this would.
Now the next question is whether we trust Apple to be true to it's word about this. If they are lying about this, I would be more concerned with them lying, than with any data they would get from my collection.
Personally, I don't have any reason to mistrust them at this point, as even the dark side of any conspiracy theories about this are fairly harmless, in my estimation.
Re:Yeah OK (Score:2, Insightful)
Unreasonable Paranoia (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're this desperately paranoid about the evil corporations knowing what music you listen to, guess what? Apple already does, every time you buy a song through their store, and furthermore they have your real name, credit card number, and address also. You shouldn't be using this service.
This is reality. Time to deal with it.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:5, Insightful)
If they had done that, most people would never have realized that the option exists. If there wasn't a podcast icon on the left side, many people would never have found the option. Better to ask during installation: "iTunes 6.0.2 offers a new option to display recommendations from iTMS matching the music your are playing. For this iTunes has to send the trackname of the current title to iTMS. These informations will only be used to change the MiniStore and be discarded afterwards. Do you want to activate this function [Yes/No]"
Chriss
--
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Let's try the story this way... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it would be fun to see the reactions to the story now.
iTunes is evil - but this was the wrong reason (Score:1, Insightful)
Shame on Apple. You are no better than those others. Bleh!
There is no excuse for supporting this. Fan boys may defend in in all ways that they want, that it is "needed" or "mild" or "the lesser of evils". You know what? It doesn't matter, all evils are evil. The obvious choice is to not choose any evil, it is false logic that dictates that any of them needs to be chosen.
Oh, and "shiny" does not good make, either.
stupid overeactions (Score:5, Insightful)
Spies work in secret. So does SPYware.
iTunes is neither malware nor spyware, and the people who claim it is are paranoid jackasses.
iTunes is doing this right in front of your face. I adamantly believe Apple should have included at least a dialog box at first launch of iTunes 6.02 informing users about the ministore, but I hardly consider it a breach of any sort of ethical barrier. The comparison to Gmail seem to be on the money... it's pretty much the same thing.
As sort of an aside, it's not a terrible feature, and it's not intrusive or nagging when you don't want it hanging around. I would have definitely preferred that there was at least a notification though.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is just fud (Score:2, Insightful)
This WAS a big deal. (Score:2, Insightful)
Imagine if Sony's Connect player was upgraded and did this kind of thing, by default, and didn't mention a word about it? There would've been plans made to burn the CEOs at the stake and public bulldozings of Sony equipment. Of course, no one cares about Sony Connect so maybe that wasn't the best example.
The fact is, Apple is a corporation. They don't care about you. They don't come over and feed your pets when you're on vacation. They're in business to make money. By having these 'related artists', it might feed iTunes sales. And they slipped a feature in that phones home (actually, phones a third party) without being explicit about what is going on. Sure, it could be innocuous (and appears-- TODAY-- to be semi-innocuous) but no one knew yesterday except a mysterious connection was being made with no explanation.
As for everyone saying "When you buy something they can track your habits" -- of course they can. That's expected. What's not expected is a third party IP address obtaining information just as you're playing music with no explanation of what they're getting. Apple COULD HAVE been sending ANYTHING to them. That company could have been doing ANYTHING with that. It wasn't explicit.
Either way, they blew it and they got called on it. This is a privacy issue. Don't let your fanboy-ism get in the way of seeing that. The public reaction was a GOOD thing.
Re:Market trumps regulations, go figure (Score:3, Insightful)
Which is why Apple didn't have any reason to make it opt-out. They figured they could better provide for their customers (99.9%) by putting everyone in the program, especially since they disclosed it at the time of release.
Nothing was sold, nothing was kept. What's the problem, right?
Re:Itunes Music Store Default On or Off? (Score:3, Insightful)
If I walk into a clothing store, it doesn't surprise me if the clerk offers to show me something based on what I'm wearing.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Insightful)
No software is "gathering" information about you. Gathering implies storing, and it isn't stored. It's simply a query to the iTMS database for a particular artists tracks.
There's a mania these days about privacy issues, that's going to look as silly as the McCarthy witch hunts or Political Correctness in years to come. The REAL abuses of privacy are in danger of being buried under a pile of complains about things that aren't an issue. Examine each case on it's merits. Don't just try your hardest to categorise each new web-service that comes along as spyware.
As if anyone is interested in what artists an anonymous person on a particular IP address plays anyway. Adding them all together might be of interest though. But how the hell that is detrimental to you as an individual is a question that none of the current breed of privacy hysterics seem to have an answer for.
Re:In retrospect ...Hey, Wait a Minute Here (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm not saying that Apple is my friend or I'm promoting these practices. But if done right, privacy can be ensured and introduce a level of service that can't be had without these information. For example, if a product never gets feedback, then how would the developers know how well it's doing? Similarily, Apple needs to know your "feedback" in order to know what you like or don't like. Similar to this, Amazon's recommendation system has more than once recommended to me something that I ended up liking (granted this is only based on what you're browsing), and I appreciate that (don't flame me, this is just my personal preference).
As for the giant warning, I agree that they should have warned the user, even if they turned on the data collection by default.
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:3, Insightful)
To get around this, Apple should have popped up a dialog box the first time which says something along the lines of "iTunes can recommend new music based on what you are currently playing. This feature requires that the songs you play are sent to the server. Would you like to turn this feature on?" to which the customer clicks on "yes" or "no".
In this way, you get visibility of a new feature (the pro of having it on by default) and the chance to opt out if you don't want it (the pro of having it off by default).
Re:This is just fud (Score:4, Insightful)
This tool looks at what song is currently playing, and suggests possible other albums you might like. It's actually kind of nice, when you want to use it, and does nothing when you don't. Win.
Only becuase you like apple. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that Apple is more often viewed as being product and customer centerned than a tyrannical monopoly is the only reason people will defend this kind of activity.
Apple was taking your personal information about your personal music being played on your personal computer and sending it back to themselves. Basic common courtesy dictates you ask people for personal information, you don't take it. The fact Jobs says he's not being malevolent is nice, but doesn't change the fact Apple somehow felt entitled to know what music you're playing on iTunes at any given time.
One dialog box, "Is it ok to send information about the music you're playing so we can better recommend purchases for you?" is all it takes. That one little question makes this a nice features instead of an invasion of privacy.
Re:This WAS a big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)
When Apple updated iTunes software, they included an explanation of this new behavior in their FAQ.
There are only two pieces of news
If you are using a service, RTFM and then go read the FAQ. Bonus advice: turn off auto-updating on non-critical applications.
They should do it right if they are doing it (Score:3, Insightful)
I turned off the service because I was tired of being told that I would like Will Smith's "Switch". This is just blatant promotion as I haven't bought anything remotely like it. In a way -- this IS using my data for 3rd parties by making me believe that there is some correlation between my tastes and overhyped crap that has flooded the national earspace.
If they are going to collect my data, they should, as a courtesy, do something smart with it.
Re:This is just fud (Score:4, Insightful)
I want the spyware to look at what I actually look at, not just what I tell them too. It's far more likely to give me good suggestions that way.
This tool looks at what webpage is currently displayed, and suggests possible other products you might like. It's actually kind of nice, when you want to use it, and does nothing when you don't. Win.
Except that it's enabled by default and doesn't tell you that it's doing it in the first place.
Re:not actually being collected (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everything we can see from a technical standpoint and a logical standpoint indicates that there is nothing more happening than a custom WebObjects query to update the recommendations section of the MiniStore.
Now, a bunch of people will keep saying "yeah, but how do we *know* they're not keeping it" or "you would be a fool if you thought they *weren't* keeping it, no matter what they say", but the fact is that iTunes is a highly customized, dynamic web browser - nothing more.
Now, you might think ANY time any information is outbound from your computer, that it constitutes "sending" it to someone. I take issue with this, because, again, it implies it's being taken and kept. I think there is a difference, and that intent matters. Apple did not try to hide this [slashdot.org], and while I agree it would have been a good idea to at least ask politely (and give a clear option to decline), I don't think there is any malicious intent here whatsoever.
Re:not actually being collected-then turn it off (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you really think they would want to store that much information? Even if they did, if the request does not have any information specific to you, you have nothing to worry about.
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
Very true. At least here Apple comes out and explains what it is doing and manages to reasure people. What I often hear from Microsoft when something like this happens is either silence or some sort of arrogant remark. Microsoft could deal with their PR battles with a little more grace than they have up to now.
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, isn't that a good enough reason to treat them differently or give more doubt benefit than a company who DOES behave like a tyrannical monopoly?
Humans judge most entities they are familiar with based on expectations formed by past experience. If Apple shows a history of not mistreating them or falling short of their expectations, and other companies have, I would fully expect Apple to be cut more slack than a company that HAD failed them.
Perception is reality, by and large. If all you've ever had with, say, Microsoft were good experiences and Apple burned you over and again, you'd be willing to cut MS more slack than Apple if you found they'd engaged in questionable activities.
Do you think people are more forgiving of Apple because they like Apple, or like them because they have few reasons to be skeptical of their motivations?
Re:Remember every web browser is spyware too. (Score:3, Insightful)
The server does not require Firefox to send information about CPU, Operating system or specific linux distro to a web server to get a page. In fact you could manually set the browser identity to null, and the webserver would happily provide you with a page that will work more than 99% of the time.
So that information is NOT required. It is wanted by the website owners perhaps, but it is NOT required to be sent.
Yet firefox (as one example because other browsers do it too) does send that information by default. Why is it telling web sites about my distro and which CPU it is running on? I didn't ask it to.
Re:This is just fud (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, Slashdot would be hysterical about it if it was Microsoft, but they are being hysterical about it when it's Apple, so what's your point there?
Re:Only becuase you like apple. (Score:4, Insightful)
If this were windows media player (again - it phoned home when you played DVDs, and was resoundly condemded in many circles) there wouldn't be a person on slashdot without a torch or pitchfork.
I agree wholeheartedly. If you remember the Sony-BMG debacle (who doesn't?), one of the things people were up in arms about was that the software phoned home. People on /., among many others, rightly complained that it sent information back to Sony without the customer's permission. Sony said they didn't keep the information, but people rightly said that it didn't matter if they kept it or not. The problem was that it was sent without our permission. Yes, there were many other aspects to the Sony-BMG fiasco, but this was one of the issues. According to many comments on /., the fact that Apple is doing it seems to make it okay. It is NOT okay. This should have been clarified up front with the default to "don't transfer my information to Apple".
Re:This is just fud (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In retrospect ... (Score:4, Insightful)
While they are at it, they should put up a notice that using the GET TRACK NAMES feature (on by default) is sending CDDB information about which new CD you just put in your drive.
Oh, and every last web page you visit should ask for permission to see your IP address, so it knows where to send the response to your http request. Of course, it might be kind of tough for them to get the request to reach you...
Re:stupid overeactions (Score:3, Insightful)
In order for this to be not classified as spyware, it should be opt-in.
Instead, Apple chose profit and spying over customer protection and good faith.
Re:This is just fud (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course they are storing it, why wouldn't they? Nobody outside of Apple can prove otherwise.
I've nothing against Apple but this new version of iTunes is Spyware pure and simple.