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Apple Unveils New Pro Products 590

porcupine8 writes "As many had speculated, today Apple unveiled upgrades to their PowerBook and Power Mac lines (although no PowerBook G5). They also introduced a new professional photography application known as Aperture, rounding out their software lineup for creative professionals. Can't wait to find out what they announce next week!"
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Apple Unveils New Pro Products

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  • No PowerBook G5 (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mikey-San ( 582838 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:25PM (#13829453) Homepage Journal
    "Although, no PowerBook G5."

    Were you asleep during the Intel announcement?

    Everyone who actually thinks there will be G5 PowerBooks at this point, please stand up.

    Crickets?
  • by Lord Satri ( 609291 ) <alexandrelerouxNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:27PM (#13829476) Homepage Journal
    An interesting surprise is the prerequisites. Based on http://www.apple.com/aperture/specs.html [apple.com] , Aperture requires a state-of-the-art mac:

    Recommended System
            * Dual 2GHz Power Mac G5 or faster
            * 2GB of RAM
            * One of the following graphics cards:
                        o ATI Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition
                        o ATI Radeon 9800 XT or 9800 Pro
                        o NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL or 6800 GT DDL
                        o NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GT
                        o NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500
            * 5GB of disk space for application, templates, and tutorial
            * DVD drive for installation

    Probably they'll eventually offer a "light" version of Aperture, like they did with Final Cut and Logic Audio, other "Pro" software.

  • Hmmm, (Score:3, Interesting)

    by temojen ( 678985 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:27PM (#13829477) Journal
    A product in the same price-class as Photoshop CS, but not the same feature-class... I wonder how that'll fair in the market...
  • Re:Aperture info (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mikey-San ( 582838 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:28PM (#13829498) Homepage Journal
    It is similar to Googles Picassa but on steroids.

    More accurately:

    Aperture : Google's Picasa :: Final Cut Pro : iMovie
  • by intmainvoid ( 109559 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:30PM (#13829519)
    Apple must really be loving the hype over dual core cpus - looks like they're getting away with "upgrading" the two lower dual cpu Powermacs to a single dual core cpu. Isn't that going to be, uh, slower?

    Only the 2 x dual core top of the line model is an improvement over the mac it's replacing, the dual 2.7GHz.

  • by dave1212 ( 652688 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:33PM (#13829551) Homepage
    New Power Macs can take up to 16 GB DDR2 RAM, have PCI Express, and can power up to four 30" displays or eight 23" or 20" ones.

    The thing that caught my eye was the addition of a second gigabit ethernet port. Dual gigabit ethernet ports means instant network rendering for Logic Node, XGrid, or any app that supports it. No expensive (given, these Macs are costly enough as is) gigabit router needed.

    Aperture looks interesting, although it requires a more powerful machine than mine, just like Motion. Working with RAW data from start to finish sounds wicked. Not sure about US$499 wicked, but cool nonetheless.

    For some reason, Apple offers an upgrade price on the product page, that links to the Motion 2 upgrade. Not really sure what's going on with that.
  • Re:Apple and Adobe (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CountBrass ( 590228 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:34PM (#13829559)
    Some time ago Adobe announced they would no longer target the Mac first. I think you'll find this is Apple responding to a slap in the face from Adobe.
  • by Thu25245 ( 801369 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:38PM (#13829615)
    The 12" i^HpowerBook is still at 1024x768

    And it's hard enough to read at that resolution. Trust me, I have one, and I use an external monitor to take some of the burden of of my eyes. Remember, a Mac has traditionally rendered 1point=1pixel.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:38PM (#13829628)
    Actually, the current PowerMacs DO NOT meet the minimum specs for Aperture. The graphics card included will all new PowerMacs (NVidia 6600, with either 128MB for the low/mid and 256MB for the high) is not listed as meeting the minimum requirements. The "lowest" NVidia card listed is the 9800.
  • by radicalskeptic ( 644346 ) <x&gmail,com> on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:42PM (#13829673)
    In the past couple years, Apple has been releasing really great pro-level apps for music, video, and now photography. This is good, but what *I* really want is a competitor for MakeMusic's Finale [finalemusic.com], which is a professional-grade program for music notation (like Microsoft Word, but for musical scores).

    Finale is actually really powerful (and expensive). It can do pretty much anything most people need for their notation. Unfortunately, it is the worst UI trainwreck I have ever encountered. It is lacking in a clear, simple, unified interface or an intuitive organization. Seemingly simple and basic options are buried deep in the mess. And the help files are almost worthless.

    For example, instead of clicking notes in, you can use your keyboard to enter notes.

    But I don't know what key does what.
    So I go into the key map options, but I still can't find the default key map. It just allows me to create a custom key map.
    I'm like 'okay the help files will learn me where the default or current key map is--or maybe even tell me WHAT it is!'
    Nope. No search results for "key map" in the really outdated help software that comes with it (it looks like it is a port from OS 9).

    This kind of stuff happens to me all the time. Apple, please release "Notes" or something! You could make a killing!
  • Re:Aperture info (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mozumder ( 178398 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:46PM (#13829716)
    It looks to use CoreImage for it's image processing, which would be cool, as that would mean it uses the GPU for image processing. The demo shows some very responsive image processing. My goddammed photoshop CS1 RAW import may take a day just to generate thumbnails from RAW files. I am so upgrading.
  • by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:52PM (#13829779) Homepage Journal
    I also noticed that the prices of 23" and 30" displays dropped, to $1299 from $1499 on the 23", to $2499 from $2999 on the 30".
  • Re:Aperture info (Score:5, Interesting)

    by badasscat ( 563442 ) <basscadet75@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @03:58PM (#13829841)
    If this is just an organization and editing program, then how is this any different than iPhoto?

    RAW workflow. Apple is calling this "the first of its kind" in that it can work directly on RAW images, but that's not true. I'm not sure if the parent poster really knew what he was talking about or not, but from looking through the features this has on Apple's web site, it does seem that Picasa 2.1 does pretty much the exact same things, and Picasa is free.

    (There are probably things that Apple doesn't mention that people like me would consider pretty important, but I can only go by what's on their web site right now. I'm interested to learn more, as a real Photoshop-level app that can work straight on RAW files might be enough to get me to finally switch to Mac.)

    It is highly desirable to work directly on RAW files, which as Apple says is "non-destructive", i.e. all of your original sensor data is still there. This is not the case when working with RAW files in Photoshop, which have to be rasterized even before they're actually opened. You can make basic adjustments in Adobe Camera RAW before the file is opened but to do real retouching, you have to rasterize and open in Photoshop itself.

    Picasa will let you do editing and retouching on the RAW file, then export it after you've edited. But Picasa's tools are pretty basic. Apple might offer more, but under their "all the tools you need" sidebar on the web site, they just list the same stuff Picasa does and that even Adobe Camera RAW will mostly do. The real questions for me are:

    a) does Aperture support layers?
    b) does Aperture have a clone tool/healing brush/patch tool? These are the tools I use most often for actual retouching.
    c) does Aperture support 16 bit images? (My guess is it would pretty much have to in order to truly support RAW, but I don't think they specifically say it does anywhere.)

    If the answers to all of these questions are "yes", I'm tempted. If the answers to any one out of the three are "no", then it's really a worthless app if you've got Picasa, and especially if you've already got a combination of Picasa and Photoshop. (So you can use Picasa for images that need only light retouching, and Photoshop for the heavy stuff that Aperture wouldn't be suited for either.)

    Of course, both Apple and Adobe will probably improve their products to compete with each other as time goes on. I would love to see true RAW support in Photoshop itself and I would love to see more features in Aperture. Adobe has had no real serious competition in pro image editing for a good while up to now.

  • Re:aperture.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Stanistani ( 808333 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:05PM (#13829916) Homepage Journal
    Has anyone else noticed that there is a software company called Aperture [aperture.com] which makes a product called Aperture?

    Didn't they have enough hassles with Apple Records?
  • Aperture... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jpellino ( 202698 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:12PM (#13829981)
    ...Looks great - the tour is stunning, and the metaphor is a breath of fresh air. A loupe - a light table - the ability to see thumbnails and versions on the table while you work. Heads up displays that give you back your window. They've obviously talked to a lot pf photographers, many of whom are likely sick of the tunnel vision interface of just about every app, PS included - that makes them stop acting like a photographer. I'm in the same boat. I've recently gone back to my professional 35mm SLR outfit that cost me a whopping $600 back in the day, and does what I want, and can make archival 11x14 prints that blow you away.

    Most affordable digital cameras a great for taking a picture of something that is rock solid and in no danger of moving and is under optimal lighting conditions. After two weddings as a guest just trying to shoot candids, I realize that there's very little art in using a current digital camera, that it mostly involves holding this small brick between you and something and trusting it to make a series of decisions you might not agree with all while making sure you just heard the right beep, saw the right LED and heard the right little ticky thingy. And I'm a geek.

    I've decided to retire my series of cameras (3, 4, 5 MP - they were all supposed to be so much better than the last one...) or donate them or something, and hunker down until something on the order of the EOS and this level of image handling gets reasonable. By hunker down I mean shoot with real film and a flash that goes more than 10 feet and something like decent response time. All of which I have in a 20 year old Pentax outfit. yes, I know it's ten times the volume and weight when outfitted with a TTL flash and zoom and winder. Yes, I know that if I pay thru the nose now for the EOS and a G5 and Aperture I'll save all that money on film - but film is a dribbling expense. And yes I know the COLA on a $600 camera from the 1980s is probably on the order of an EOS today, but I can still get a comparable new 35mm setup for the same $600 today.

    And honest to god - as with cell phones - it's not like I was wasting away and spent every hour before digital cameras wanting to take a picture and every five minutes wishing I could be making a phone call back in the era "BC" (before cellphones). (Ooooh! Then there's taking pictures with my phone! Or should I be calling people on my camera?! Wait, wait - if I could only email from my toaster...!)

    For many instances, digital cameras are quick, cheap, and OK. Honestly, 99% of them should be compared to compact point and click cameras for actual performance - but the hype of their early days has failed to solidify
  • Re:Apple displays (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Keith Mickunas ( 460655 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:13PM (#13829988) Homepage
    Look at the Dells. Dell sells widescreen LCDs also, using the same Samsung panels as some of the Apples, and if you search for the deals you can get them for close to half the price of Apple. Plus they got a wide array of connectors on the back. I have a Dell 2005FPW and it's beautiful, it's a 20" 16x9 monitor with resolution of 1680x1050. Early ones supposedly had a backlight problem, but the one I bought a few months back is wonderful. And I got it for a bit over $400 delivered.
  • All options pricing (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:16PM (#13830004)
    Hmm, pick every good option on the dual core/dual processor and the price ends up at roughly $23,000. I didn't need that new car anyway...
  • Re:RAW (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mpapet ( 761907 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:27PM (#13830114) Homepage
    It's the easy RAW processing that is the unique selling proposition in Aperture. RAW processing has been in the past a binary-only kind of thing. Photoshop certainly doesn't have this kind of workflow. Yes, it has the features hidden in menus, but doesn't execute them like Aperture.

    Native (whatever that means) RAW handling is also why the system requirements are high(ish).

    Based on my experience, Apple should win far more creative users with this application. Many photographers working in digital use(d) Windows and Adobe certainly hasn't made anything like this.(yet)
  • by Karl Cocknozzle ( 514413 ) <kcocknozzle.hotmail@com> on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:31PM (#13830151) Homepage
    How long until the 4-way mobos get shrunk down to fit an XServe? Would it have to expand to a 2U server to accomodate 4 procs, or would it be do-able in the current 1U form-factor?
  • Re:Apple displays (Score:2, Interesting)

    by SnapShot ( 171582 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @04:34PM (#13830173)
    I'm able to get my Windows boot to work with a GeForce 6600 AGP at full resolution for the 23" Apple Cinema Display (1940x1200) but as of yet I have been unable to tweak my SuSe 9.3 to display any higher than 1600x1200.

    YMMV and I'm no expert at configuring the necessary config files, but as of yet it doesn't appear that this particular combination (6600 + SuSe 9.3 + 23" Cinema Display) works to its full potential "out of the box".

    Still, for development work at home 1600x1200 is pretty nice and, under windows, it's beautiful IMHO.
  • by johnny cashed ( 590023 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @05:06PM (#13830488) Homepage
    I agree. Nothing like a good rig from the '80s or '90s using film. I'm just glad now that I stuck with 35mm instead of moving up to medium format. I am not a professional, so I don't have to deal with sending pictures across the globe instantly like a photojournalist. The closest digital camera that would allow me to take full advantage of my 15mm superwide is the Canon with the full frame sensor (due to "lens factor"). It costs more than my lens. And it is a different lens mount. Most digital cameras are good as polaroid point and shoots. If I was a pro Nikon user, I'd be pissed because Nikon has yet to make a digital SLR that will use existing Nikon lenses at their focal length. Most people don't want to spend money on a 15mm or 20mm lens to get an 18 or 24 out of it. Nikon is using this as a way to sell smaller lenses (we'll just call them "DX" lenses). Used to be, Nikon would brag that its lens mount is still compatible with older lenses. They still technically are, but you loose a portion of the frame. I mean, if your going to a smaller sensor area, and you are going to make a new set of lenses for this area, you might as well make a smaller lens mount. Because now you cannot use your new "DX" lenses with your 35mm film camera and you cannot use them if they ever make a "full frame" digital camera, so why are you making a new lens line with an old lens mount when they are practically incompatible? I really don't care, because I don't use Nikon. I think that they are losing the pro market anyway. Which is a shame, because Nikon really did make some good equipment. But I'm not here to start a Nikon/Canon/Olympus/etc. penis length match. Digital cameras are useful, they are handy, but they are not yet all things to all photographers. Long live chemistry.
  • by rworne ( 538610 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @05:06PM (#13830490) Homepage
    It was $3000 just yesterday. Technically it was $2499 two weeks ago, because that's how far back Apple's price protection goes.
  • Re:photoshop is dead (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sakusha ( 441986 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @05:13PM (#13830548)
    Uh.. no.

    Perhaps you mean Adobe Bridge is dead. That's more like it. Aperture is for importing and sorting files, and doing basic adjustments to RAW files. There are already pro products doing well in that niche, like Capture One Pro. But these are just front-ends to Photoshop, which will always be the tool of choice for serious photo editing.

    I can't wait for this Aperture, as the Canon File Viewer software is a real piece of crap, and so is their "Pro" version Canon Photo Pro. They are clumsy Windows ports that perform incredibly poorly and have the worst GUI I've ever seen. Most astonishingly, Canon Photo Pro doesn't support my Canon S50 camera! Aperture does.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @05:52PM (#13830878)
    Precisely. Why would anyone buy an Xserve this week, except for the form factor?

    I can't think of anything else major that Apple hasn't refreshed lately. They're on a roll ...
  • by 1336.5 ( 901985 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @05:59PM (#13830928)
    the combo drive. It used to confuse the shit out of our customers

    -former apple employee
  • Re:Aperture info (Score:3, Interesting)

    by CatOne ( 655161 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @06:09PM (#13830983)
    I don't believe Aperture *HAS* to support layers. Because it keeps a record of the manipulations that you do, and CoreImage dynamically does them on the fly, and shows you the file with the updates applied. CoreImage uses the GPU so it's fast enough that you don't actually have to save the effects, as layers.

    The huge bonus there would be in this for me is... a 10 MB RAW file ends up being a 150-500 MB .PSD document with 10 layers and sharpening applied. Which is freaking ridiculous, and absolutely KILLS the machine. CoreImage should give you about 90% more disk space for your RAW files... as it seems Aperture keeps 2 files (one is the original RAW, and one's the updated one with data about the effects).

    The answers to your other two questions are a definite yes.
  • Re:Aperture... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @06:23PM (#13831114)
    " Film will make you a better photographer than shooting digital"

    I disagree. Digital camera, especially the dSLR's, provide instant feedback. So instead of taking one shot, waiting a few hours/days to get it developed, and learning from the results, i can now take a shot, examine it, adjust aperture, shutter, iso and a number of other settings, and take another shot.

    The feedback loop in the digital world is orders of magnitude faster than in the analog world. Learning is proportional to the amount and velocity of feedback.

    Digital cameras speed up the learning curve trememdously, IMHO.
  • by Too Much Noise ( 755847 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @06:54PM (#13831230) Journal
    If you do not shoot 500 pictures or more at a family gathering "because you can"

    If you shoot 500+ pictures at one event because you can you're a monkey with a finger reflex, not a photographer. A photographer would only shoot as many pictures as needed.

    If you do not have a camera body that costs over $1200

    I can up your troll just fine - if your hasselblad doesn't have a digital back you are not doing pro digital photography (after all, that's what you're droning about with 'then you can't understand the difference between Aperture and Photoshop' 'cause Aperture is 'for photographers') Do you still qualify? Craftmanship is not a matter of the tool and conversely throwing money at pro photo gear does not a photographer make (they used to say philosophum non facit barba)

    If you have absolutely no problem deleting pictures you've taken

    So you keep all those 500+ pictures per event? That says something about your discerning ability ... remind me never to ask you about your photos. Heck, if you shoot 500+ pics on a daily basis, you don't even see most of them. Or you meant 500+ once in a blue moon, when you play 'photographer'?

    If you never take your memory card out of your camera

    yep, 2x 20D (with USB2 connectors, so transfer time is not a big issue) loaded with 8GB cards (to fit about 900 RAW pics each) cannot possibly help you understand ... wait, nevermind. Perhaps you didn't think someone could actually be using more than one camera (the horror!!!)

    If you use AOL's webmail to send people pictures of your dog

    ah, indeed. I seem to have been wasting my time after all. You are absolutely right - pictures of your dog won't do at all. Now, pictures of your cat, on the other hand ...

    How you got +5 Insightful is perhaps a testimony of how much apple section mods know about photography - because it certainly has no relevance for the 'insight' of your post.
  • by harlows_monkeys ( 106428 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @08:05PM (#13831694) Homepage
    Also now avalable: ECC memory.

    No self-respecting workstation went without it

    As an experiment, for the last couple of months, I've left a process running at home, and one at work, that simply has a 128 MB buffer, filled with a simple data pattern. Every 60 seconds, it checks the buffer, to see if any of the data has changed. Because it is accessing it like this, it stays resident.

    Result: no errors.

    Based on the expected RAM error rates I was able to find by Googling, I expected to see several errors by now. However, all the published data I could find was a few years old, and presumably RAM has been made more resistant to error. Whatever the reason, experiment seems to say that ECC is not as necessary as some think.

  • Re:Apple displays (Score:3, Interesting)

    by coleridge78 ( 603449 ) on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @09:55PM (#13832320)
    Dell does not do the same QA that Apple does with the displays, so though some may be from the same manufacturer the consistency is far different. Spend an hour digging around forums and consumer reports for repair records and the like, this becomes rather evident.

    Also: the perks on the Dell displays, particularly the USB ports and the like are notoriously faulty. At one ~500-machine Dell installation with which I'm intimately familiar, far less than half of the Dell flat-panel monitors (don't know model #s offhand, unfortunately) have USB ports and media readers which work as advertised. Far less. They're just trash.

    That said, I bought a Samsung display rather than an Apple. Lower cost, but far better quality than the Dells.
  • by statusbar ( 314703 ) <jeffk@statusbar.com> on Wednesday October 19, 2005 @11:20PM (#13832772) Homepage Journal
    Although what you say may be true, your test is flawed with regard to SDRAM refresh. Try make it verify the memory once every day instead.

    Jeff
  • Re:Still overpriced (Score:2, Interesting)

    by RTMFD ( 69819 ) <ibaird@NOSPAM.gmail.com> on Thursday October 20, 2005 @12:08AM (#13833001) Homepage
    I'm "middle class" and the Apple Powerbook or the PowerMac is the equivalent of a week's pay for me. Which "middle class" are you talking about?

    Considering the longevity of apple hardware, it's more like putting down a down payment on a car or something equivalent. I had the "bic lighter" laptops from Dell and HP. They broke after a year of use.

  • by Qwerpafw ( 315600 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @01:00AM (#13833242) Homepage
    Most high quality audio cards are extrenal, and use FW400 or FW800. The Digi002 is a great example of this--the 001 used a PCI card, but the 002 is Firewire.

    Firewire carries all the bandwidth you need, and lets you put your audio interface in a rack or console where it belongs.
  • Re:Is DDR2 worth it? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Wiz ( 6870 ) on Thursday October 20, 2005 @04:33AM (#13833930) Homepage
    DDR-2 does have lower power requirements, which is a win for laptops. More battery, and less heat. But I do agree it is likely, if anything, to degrade performance.

    What Apple should have done is put in the 7448 core from Freescale. It is pin compatabile with the current 7447a and has a faster FSB (200MHz) as well as more cache and better power management. Along with other general core improvements.

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