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Microsoft Businesses Apple

Ground Rules for the Windows vs. Mac War 524

Posted by Zonk from the users-need-to-think-before-they-pick-names dept.
FreshlyShornBalls writes "The New York Times is running a story that I think needs to be seen by everyone on both sides of the on-going Macintosh vs. Windows debate (i.e. just about everyone who posts on Slashdot): Some ground rules for the Windows vs. Mac War." From the article: "Last week, I wrote about some of the changes Microsoft has in store for the next version of Windows, which is slated for the end of 2006. Interestingly, very few of you responded to that column, probably because so much may change in the next 19 months. But a few of you fired off diatribes about how I'm either a Microsoft 'shill' or an Apple 'apologist' (or maybe it was the other way around). It's not just me, either; it's a running sardonic joke among tech columnists that you can't even USE the word 'Apple' or 'Microsoft' without getting hate mail from somebody or other."
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Ground Rules for the Windows vs. Mac War More

Ground Rules for the Windows vs. Mac War

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  • Registration required (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:20PM (#12659511)
    From bugmenot.com, u/p: yourmom915/yourmomshouse

  • Oh no you didn't (Score:5, Funny)

    by Cylix ( 55374 ) * on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:20PM (#12659512) Homepage Journal
    I'll flame you into extinction for not mentioning Linux!

    And what about my BSD brehthren?

    I think we've been far to lax for some time... time to take up arms.

    • Re:Oh no you didn't (Score:5, Funny)

      by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:27PM (#12659585)
      > I'll flame you into extinction for not mentioning Linux!
      >
      > And what about my BSD brehthren?
      >
      > I think we've been far to lax for some time... time to take up arms.

      1) That's GNU/Linux to you, sir.
      2) Dead. Don't you reat Netcraft?
      3) Leave my well-regulated militia out of this!

      Now that that's over with, let's get back on topic - ground rules for the Windows vs. Mac war".

      I suggest that we start by discussing whether the Logitech 1000MX favored by many M$ users is too irreducibly complex to have evolved from the one-button mouse used by many Macintosh users.

      /closes eyes, throws match over shoulder, and runs like hell as the long weekend starts.

      • I suggest that we start by discussing whether the Logitech 1000MX favored by many M$ users is too irreducibly complex to have evolved from the one-button mouse used by many Macintosh users.

        Quite possibly one of the funnier things I've heard this week. Well done.

  • Thank you (Score:5, Funny)

    by PaxTech ( 103481 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:22PM (#12659527) Homepage
    I love getting my news from Freshly Shorn Balls. In this age of no media credibility (Newsweek, NYT, I'm looking at you), Freshly Shorn Balls are clearly the answer. :)
    • Well, in addition to dependable news, if you treat them nicely, freshly shorn balls can dispense other fun things. Just don't forget your towel.

    • Newsweek not off the mark (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Their mention of the Koran being desecrated wasn't off the mark as it turns out.

      This post, however, is so it'll be AC.

      • Re:Newsweek not off the mark (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:20PM (#12660089)
        Actually, I was discussing this with a cow-orker today. You can use the White House's response to something as a barometer as to how much validity it has. When they start jumping around and pointing the finger at the "liberal media" about making things up, you can sure as hell bet that it's true.

  • "Rules?" (Score:4, Funny)

    by Hawthorne01 ( 575586 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:22PM (#12659529)
    "...in a knife fight?" [imdb.com]
  • But a few of you fired off diatribes about how I'm either a Microsoft 'shill' or an Apple 'apologist'

    Coming from an admitted Gnu/Linux zealot; Can't he be both?

  • And so it will be here (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kcornia ( 152859 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:22PM (#12659539) Journal
    It's not just me, either; it's a running sardonic joke among tech columnists that you can't even USE the word 'Apple' or 'Microsoft' without getting hate mail from somebody or other."

    I certainly hope no one thinks it will be any different here. In my several years reading /., its been a constant that I can always count on; rabid fans of both spouting broken record thoughts about how poor the other is.

    Seems to me both have their uses, both have their faults.

  • well, that's ok (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    It's not just me, either; it's a running sardonic joke among tech column readers that the writers just cut-n-paste press releases.

  • dude (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:23PM (#12659542)
    I don't know what this guy's on, but Thomas the Tank Engine rules.

    • Re:dude (Score:5, Funny)

      by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) * on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:14PM (#12660029)
      I prefer The Little Engine That Could. He came with his own Reality Distortion Field(TM), "I think I can, I think I can!"
      • It's obvious you haven't read "The Little Engine That Could," or you'd realize that the locomotive in question is really a she.

        No, it doesn't make sense to me either, but I didn't write the story. Then again, the start of the story talks about how the kids in the village will love eating their fresh spinach, so it's not exactly rooted in reality...

  • FreshlyShornBalls (Score:5, Funny)

    by phasm42 ( 588479 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:24PM (#12659554)
    from the users-need-to-think-before-they-pick-names dept.
    How excellent.
  • I've read this article.

    Its obvious, vacuous dribble.

    I condemn it.

    Move along, Move along

  • Apple zelots are a double edged sword. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by autopr0n ( 534291 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:28PM (#12659595) Homepage Journal
    Apple Zealots probably helped keep apple afloat during the difficult times before Steve Jobs came back, but they really rub people the wrong way.

    I remember one fat Mac zealot in a Computer Engineering class smugly telling me that Intel made it impossible for their chips to do multimedia and floating point mat "at the same time". Technically, you couldn't run MMX instructions and Floating instructions at the same time, because they used the same registers, and it took (I believe) 150 clock cycles to switch modes. Definitely not something a user would notice. This kid seemed to think it was now impossible to play a video and do any kind of mathematics.

    These shrill, obnoxious people, I think, turned a lot of people against the Mac, because, as a PC user the basic idea is that PC users are idiots, and buying a Mac is like validating all that BS.

    And the whole "lets worship a corporation as a god, who can do no wrong" is pretty obnoxious these days as well.

    • Re:Apple zelots are a double edged sword. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tim C ( 15259 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:40PM (#12659723)
      You're describing zealots of all kinds there. Swap "Mac" for "Windows", "Linux", "GNU", "closed source", "open source", "Java", "C", etc etc and you can have exactly the same kind of story.

      Zealots are the problem, not Mac zealots.
      • What you say is true, but they way the zealotry expresses itself rubs people different ways. For example, linux zealots express themselves by talking about the technical inferiority of everything else. Windows zealots talk about compatibility, what-you-know, etc., Mac zealots argue that everything apple does different is somehow better.

        Now, if you're from a design background I imagine you'd cope better with the apple zealot -- though I'm sure it would still be annoying. Being from a technical background
        • Now, if you're from a design background I imagine you'd cope better with the apple zealot -- though I'm sure it would still be annoying. Being from a technical background, I can handle linux zealots, though I still find them annoying.

          In my experience:

          Lots of technical types like Macs as "front end" machines and respect Unix boxes as good "back end" machines.

          Comparatively few technical types like Windows (relative to their marketshare). However, they do like the cheap hardware, and were long willing to
      • You're describing zealots of all kinds there. Swap "Mac" for "Windows", "Linux", "GNU", "closed source", "open source", "Java", "C", etc etc and you can have exactly the same kind of story.

        That's very true, but as [G|g]od is my witness, I have never met a Windows zealot. I've met people who think Mac OS sucks. I used to be one before X, but I suppose the point is I'm now writing this on a powerbook.

        However, I've never met anyone who is a Windows fan in the way that mac-heads are apple fans. And again

    • Re:Apple zelots are a double edged sword. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Valar ( 167606 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:41PM (#12659735)
      I hear that all the damned time. I'm a former computer engineering guy who has recently taken up with a group of artists and industrial designers. Obviously, mac users the whole lot (well, so am I, but at least I get my facts straight). As far as I can tell, the difference between an apple zealot and a wintel zealot is that a wintel zealot doesn't even know why wintel is supposed to be better, but the apple zealot is prepared with brochures straight from marketing.
    • Or maybe you just didn't understand the guy? He was probably just saying you couldn't play a video and do any other math at the same time at the processor level which seem true enough to me. Probably the fact he was fat, greasy, and lacked social skills predisposed you to misinterpreting him. Yeah, ok that's still a bad image for Apple...

      ...but Intel processors are the suck. If processors weren't a prime example of market lock-in there would be no reason to use any x86 (even AMD) over Power, or over 6
      • Intel processors may be teh suck, but they are also teh ub3r cheap (to speak in such terms).

        The POWER chip family was very expensive as IBM found out, and the only viable solution was the Power-core derivatives like the 970. PPC may be more efficient (no wasted CISC translation interface), and more powerful per clock, but it also costs a lot more to develop faster and better chips with. As they phase into normal use, it should get cheaper, but by then, we will be calling PPC slow and the Next Best Thing
    • These shrill, obnoxious people, I think, turned a lot of people against the Mac, because, as a PC user the basic idea is that PC users are idiots, and buying a Mac is like validating all that BS.

      Yeah, but let's not forget that there are fanbois on both sides [slashdot.org].

    • I debate that "keeping Apple alive" is an upside to the existence of Apple Zealots. Being dicks to strangers wasn't necessary, and they would have kept buying Apple's stagnant products anyway.

      As Pogue discusses, one thing you common to most OS zealots is that they don't know what they're talking about. I've heard so many people say, "Iduno, I'm really good with computers, but when I sit down at a (PC|Macintosh), I just don't know where to go to do anything."

      That's supposed to add to your credibility, yo

    • Re:Apple zelots are a double edged sword. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by _Sprocket_ ( 42527 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:04PM (#12659946)
      These shrill, obnoxious people, I think, turned a lot of people against the Mac, because, as a PC user the basic idea is that PC users are idiots, and buying a Mac is like validating all that BS.

      I don't know anyone who's ever claimed to pick a favorite platform just to stick it to another platform's fans. Sure - people get offended or puzzled by zealotry. But who puts down chunks of cash just to upset that know-it-all fat kid?

      I never went down the Mac road because I liked the commodity hardware direction happening with the IBM PC compatible crowd. And I think you'll find that is the same reason that Macs ended up in a niche market.
      And the whole "lets worship a corporation as a god, who can do no wrong" is pretty obnoxious these days as well.

      Great point. Keep in mind that, as others have pointed out, this should be applied to anywhere there is a coroporation (and even where corporations aren't directly involved). No specific platform or technology has a monopoly on zealotry (whether you call it that or not). And nobody is beyond criticism.

      • Re:Apple zelots are a double edged sword. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by cowscows ( 103644 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @07:34PM (#12660699) Journal
        Well, as a fairly laid back apple fan boy, it's been my observation that Apple's fans are also some of its harshest critics. For example, when Aqua was first announced, plenty of hardcore apple websites were nitpicking it to death, despite the fact that their own exposure to it was a webcast of a demo that Steve Jobs did for a half hour.

        They just tend to get really defensive when "outsiders"(meaning windows users) start criticising the mac. Partially because windows has been such a POS operating system. It's like someone driving an old rusty noisy car driving up to my cleaner, well kept vehicle and giving me crap because he doesn't like my hubcaps. Maybe my hubcaps could be better, but if you're not offering me something superior, then you're wasting my time.

        Secondly, there's been a lot of bitterness because MS and their windows monopoly has made things a lot tougher for other OS'es. Their breaking HTML, .doc compatibility issues, and a million other things seemed to be doing their best to take the fun out of computing, even when I consciously avoid MS software.

  • Formatted article - Karma here plz (Score:5, Informative)

    by Accipitradea ( 826191 ) <hirair@NoSPam.gmail.com> on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:29PM (#12659612) Journal

    Last week, I wrote about some of the changes Microsoft has in store for the next version of Windows, which is slated for the end of 2006. Interestingly, very few of you responded to that column, probably because so much may change in the next 19 months.

    But a few of you fired off diatribes about how I'm either a Microsoft "shill" or an Apple "apologist" (or maybe it was the other way around). It's not just me, either; it's a running sardonic joke among tech columnists that you can't even USE the word "Apple" or "Microsoft" without getting hate mail from somebody or other.

    It's kind of amazing that various extremists could find the same column too pro-Microsoft AND too pro-Apple. But hey--that's the nature of ideological soldiers, whether they're in the conservative-liberal war, the evolutionist-creationist war or the Hummer-Prius war.

    The Mac-Windows war, though, is especially pointless, protracted, and winnerless. There will always be people on each side who are every bit as rabid and un-convincible as those in any other religious war.

    Still, I'd like to suggest, as a starting point of civility, a few pointers for participants in the O.S. war. Consider it one man's version of, "Can't we all just get along?"

    1. Hate something for its failings, not for its success.

    It's totally fine to criticize something because of its flaws--to hate Windows because it's bloated and cryptic, for example, or the iPod because it's too easily scratched. But condemning something just because it's the dominant product is just sour grapes. Arguments along the lines of "I hate Bill Gates because he's rich" or "I hate the iPod because everyone has one" add nothing to the dialogue.

    2. No condemning something until you've tried it.

    If everyone abided by this idea, about 95 percent of all the Windows-Macintosh diatribes would evaporate overnight. But here it is: If you haven't tried something, then you really have no basis to comment.

    3. Execution matters.

    I'm so tired of reading discussions like this: Person A: "I love Mac OS X Tiger! That Spotlight thing is so cool: press a keystroke, type a few letters, and get an instantaneous listing every file, folder and program containing that text."

    Person B: "You pathetic loser! It's called hard-drive indexing, and Windows XP has had it from Day One." Of course, the truth is that Windows Indexing Service is to Spotlight as Thomas the Tank Engine is to a bullet train. In Indexing Service, you can't search with a single keystroke, the speed is nothing like Spotlight's, you can't search for metadata (115 kinds of secondary information, like music genre, Photoshop layer names, camera settings in digital photos, etc.), the index isn't updated in real time as you create or delete documents, and so on.

    It goes the other way, too. "I love how Windows XP lets me delete or rename files right in the Open or Save dialog boxes."

    "What's the big deal? On the Mac, we just switch to the desktop and delete or rename things there."

    Sorry, but that's just not as good as being able to do it within the dialog boxes.

    The bottom line: How well something works and how elegantly it's been built is also relevant to the "which is better" discussion.

    4. Don't make grandiose purchasing plans by guessing on technology's future.

    This pointer is directed exclusively at Mac-bashers, particularly the ones on the nation's boards of education.

    If you decide to standardize on Windows across all schools, fine. But make sure you have legitimate reasons like economics or the need to run some Windows-only software suite.

    "We want the kids to learn what they'll one day use in the business world," however, is NOT a good reason. If you think you know what anyone will be using in 2020 (when today's first graders will graduate from college), you must have a heck of a magical crystal ball.

    Truth is, by 2020, no operating system will look an

    • Yet another mediocre, middle-of-the-road, on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand journalist trying to tell us how we should think. Heaven forbid people should get passionate about something. Heaven forbid he should ever have to come down on one side or the other. No, that would risk pissing off either the Mac-related or Windows-related advertisers. Presumably he's leaving Linux and BSD out of this equation because they don't place many ads.

      Criticizing Microsoft for its market dominance is off the table! We sho

  • I'd like to address the marketshare issue (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Let's get this in early.

    It is entirely possible that if Mac OS X had the marketshare of Windows it would be compromised as often. 95% is a plum target.

    It is important to note that OS X will never have the marketshare of Windows.

    Apple is a single company. To supply the entire world's computing needs, they would have to grow to dwarf even IBM.

    The question before us, then, is how much marketshare Apple would need to have for it to be compromised as thoroughly as Windows has been.

    Is it 10%? 15%? Would an A
    • I don't really agree with most of what you are saying; Microsoft has really tightened up their security lately and it's nearly a non-issue on Windows Server 2003 (probably the only decent server product MS has ever made).

      However, I do agree with your point about Apple being a 'sole supplier'. This is very important for people to understand. With Apple being the sole supplier for both hardware and software, they can never really be as efficent as two seperate companies working flat out on improving their ef
    • It is entirely possible that if Mac OS X had the marketshare of Windows it would be compromised as often.

      Compare:

      It is entirely possible that if brick houses had the market share of straw houses the Big Bad Wolf would have been able to blow it over.

      If that doesn't reveal just how idiotic your statement is, nothing will. There are more viruses for certain cell phones that have less market share than Apple, for Bob's sake! Virus writers would love to infect Macs, just to prove it can be done.

      (I

  • Ecumenical Agnostic (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ScottSpeaks! ( 707844 ) * on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:30PM (#12659623) Homepage Journal
    In the religious wars between Apple believers and Microsoft adherents, I take the role of an ecumenical agnostic.

    Neither of them is the perfect solution to every problem (and no, neither is Linux or any other OS). I work for an art and design college, and our labs are split about 50:50 between Windows and OS X, depending on the academic program (interior/industrial/furniture/jewelry design classes use Windows, fine arts/illustration/digital media/print media use OS X). My own home network contains multiple Windows, OS X, and Linux boxes.

    So when people come to me with problems or for advice, I don't preach from the Gospel According to Steve or the Revelation to St. Bill (or the Epistles of Linus). I listen to what their needs are, and I suggest whatever offers the best solution for them.

  • Fine, I'll start. (Score:5, Funny)

    by captnitro ( 160231 ) * on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:32PM (#12659639)
    When crafting your flames, follow the guidelines below to ensure the highest troll-to-signal ratio.

    1. Always mention gaming as the pinnacle of computing.

    E.g., "The Macintosh has not proven itself to the gamers market as of yet, but excels in media production."

    "Windows, whatever your complaints, has wide support for a variety of gaming technologies not yet implemented on other platforms."

    2. Refine to make sure it doesn't make sense:

    E.g., "Apples suck because my friend tommy once he tried to play a game on his apple iie and it puffed smoke and i was like wtf??!! WHERE IN THE WORLD IS CARMEN SANDIEGO??!"

    "I JUST PRESS A BUTTON IN MY WINDOWS SYSTEM CONTROL PANEL AND BACON COMES OUT!!!11one"

    3. Make sure you're l33t. If you're not, girls won't like you. They also won't like you unless everybody else is a homosexual.

    "FARGOT!! jesuz christo wtf MY 4PPL is T3H L33T BOMB ROX0R!! micro$0ft sux0rs to play fallout and i dont evan LIKE BACON"

    "YOUR MOM like to play counterstrike and my W1NDOZE MACHENE IS WIN-WIN SITUATION!!! onbly liberals like bacon cocknut"

    4. For clarity, just translate it into Spanish and ROT13 it. It's not like anybody's gonna read it anyway. Then go do your homework like your mom told you to half an hour ago.

  • vi! (Score:4, Funny)

    by McGiraf ( 196030 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:32PM (#12659645)
    vi!

  • play to their strengths (Score:5, Funny)

    by mchallis ( 462385 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:33PM (#12659649)
    I prefer, an Apple box, runing Ubuntu Linux with a Microsoft mouse and IBM Keyboard. There is everyone happy now?
    • I prefer, an Apple box, runing Ubuntu Linux with a Microsoft mouse and IBM Keyboard. There is everyone happy now?

      Not sun (unless you're using it to code in Java).

    • Apple keyboards r0x0r! I just bought a pair of Apple M9034LL/A [apple.com] keyboards, and I love 'em.

      Went into an apple reseller [frequency.com.au] yesterday and picked up a keyboard. Asked a salesdroid "What are my chances of getting this to work on a PC?" (I already knew the answer to that, was just trolling!). Salesdroid said "Zero - there's no drivers for it". (Clearly doesn't know about USB HIDs!). I said "Mind if I try it?".

      Whipped out Dell laptop and fired it up. Windows XP detected an "Apple Extended Keyboard" and a "Generic

  • Everyone Is Wrong! (Score:4, Funny)

    by gbulmash ( 688770 ) * <semi_famous@y a h o o . c om> on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:33PM (#12659651) Homepage Journal
    CP/M on a Commodore 128 was is and always shall be the pinnacle of operating systems.

    If you leave CP/M out of the debate, you are in league with the devil and deserve the evil fate that befalls you!!!!

    - Greg

    • Repeat after me.

      I will not take large quantities of methamphetamine and halucinogenic drugs and post to slashdot.

      This may even help the other zealots. I smell a reasearch grant!

  • I agree about the ... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by SengirV ( 203400 )
    ... part where you can't even mention Apple nor Microsoft without getting hate thrown in your direction.

    Shocker!!! I post on non tech forums as well, and whenever either is brought up, the level of hatred and name calling is amazing. The only think that produces more anger is talking about the president.

    My point is that this is so obvious, then why not put "The sky is blue" in the news section here. IT's something we all know.
  • #1) Calm, rational discussion has no place in discussions of ideology (or /. for that matter)
    #2) I am always right
    #3)????
    #4) Profit !!!
    #5) see rule #2

  • The end at last (Score:3, Funny)

    by MC68000 ( 825546 ) <brodskie@gm3.1415926ail.com minus pi> on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:38PM (#12659708)
    Finally the debate will be settled once and for all!
  • She would tell me never to discuss religion, politics, or operating systems in mixed company.

    I have used them all and stick with Windows at home because I know how to keep it clean and stable.

    I have been running Windows 2000 since late 2000 and never reloaded the OS and keep it clean as can be.

    Use what you like and then go out and play in the great outdoors.
  • A Windows vs. Mac debate is as silly as a G.I. Joe vs Strawberry Shortcake debate.

    One is for boys, and the other is for girls and male homosexuals.

    Duh.

    • I have mod points, but I don't see +1 "Funny flamebait" in the list.

  • Does this mean we are going to have a real war? (Score:4, Funny)

    by glowimperial ( 705397 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:40PM (#12659720)
    An actual war between Windows and Mac users would be awesome. I'd love to see some cubicle to cubicle Molotov cocktail tossing.
    • Sounds like a game of Worms to me...

    • Re:Does this mean we are going to have a real war? (Score:5, Funny)

      by WankersRevenge ( 452399 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:53PM (#12659850)
      At my work, all the cute ladies are the mac users so the war would be very short lived. The ladies would toss the cocktails. The geeks would stare in amazement, each thinking "wow, she noticed me" as they all went up in flames.

    • Here's how it goes down... (Score:5, Funny)

      by tentimestwenty ( 693290 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @07:28PM (#12660635)
      Yes, I see it now:

      The Windows users building some kind of overcomplicated Molotov-cocktail which ignites with the least effort and causes most of them to get blown up. The balance of Windows users have already by chance attended Molotov-cocktail University and are certified to make the basic explosive.

      Mac users, on the other side of the office, order theirs from molotovcocktail.com. Each one comes in box so pretty that few ever remove the contents and those that do, adorn their person with multiple cocktails. Although still heavily outnumbered, they are quite skilled at throwing. The battle plays itself out to a near draw, given the ratio of Windows users left to the Mac users who can get the cocktail out of the box and through attrition there are only two users left standing.

      After that, in walks the Linux user with a mini-nuclear-bomb which he took 20 years to construct in his basement. He rids the office of both Windows and Mac users.

      Afterwards, a race of mutant Linuxes grow up to inhabit the Earth.

  • The most important one.. (Score:5, Informative)

    by garagekubrick ( 121058 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:41PM (#12659738) Homepage
    2. No condemning something until you've tried it.



    First you'd have to get people to RTFA, for starters.



    I'm often amazed however at how many non tech literate people I know simply refuse to even try OSX even when I offer to show them how to. These are people who are completely frustrated by Windows but stick with it only because it's what they know and cannot even fathom an alternative.



    • Stockholm Syndrome? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by toby ( 759 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @07:43PM (#12660772) Homepage Journal
      These are people who are completely frustrated by Windows but stick with it only because it's what they know and cannot even fathom an alternative.

      The polite explanation for this might be Stockholm Syndrome [sniggle.net]*. The impolite explanation is pig ignorance.

      (* "The Stockholm Syndrome comes into play when a captive cannot escape and is isolated and threatened with death, but is shown token acts of kindness by the captor. It typically takes about three or four days for the psychological shift to take hold.
      "A strategy of trying to keep your captor happy in order to stay alive becomes an obsessive identification with the likes and dislikes of the captor which has the result of warping your own psyche in such a way that you come to sympathize with your tormenter!"      )
  • If everyone abided by this idea, about 95 percent of all the Windows-Macintosh diatribes would evaporate overnight. But here it is: If you haven't tried something, then you really have no basis to comment.

    That 95% -- probably more like 99% -- of Windows fanboys have never tried a Mac, I can well believe. But the reverse? Uh-uh.

    Windows is everywhere, and unavoidable. Anyone who uses a Mac, or Linux, or any other OS that's not Windows, almost certainly has made an informed decision to do so based on harsh experience with Microsoft's crap.
    • Anyone who uses a Mac, or Linux, or any other OS that's not Windows, almost certainly has made an informed decision to do so based on harsh experience with Microsoft's crap.

      So true! Another factor to consider is that there is a huge network effect working against Apple and Linux, and still they have made inroads. The fact that practically every company runs Windows, almost every big game comes out for Windows first, and there are zillions of vendors in the Windows world makes it that much more difficult

      • Re:"No condemning something until you've tried it. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by mellon ( 7048 ) * on Friday May 27, 2005 @07:00PM (#12660415) Homepage
        An interesting win for companies regarding the network effect is that now a lot of employees are buying their own laptops for work with their own money, because the company won't pay for a Mac. Ironically, most of the executive staff and sales staff and half the engineers at the company I work for do their work on Macs, but the company won't buy them Macs, so they buy their own. Win win for the corporate bottom line.

  • TFA is a shill! (Score:3, Funny)

    by This is outrageous! ( 745631 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @05:51PM (#12659820)
    The New York Times is runn...

    Man aren't we getting tired of the NYT zealots. Mossberg rules. Pogue sucks! End of discussion.

  • Huh? Whoever heard of having rules for a religious war? Geez, what sort of nonsense is that? Did the Emacs vs. VI wars ever have rules? Silly columnist...
  • Apple: Ground Rules for the Windows vs. Mac War

    Why is this a war? I think that whole characterization is ridiculous and has been for use.

    Apple is successful. Microsoft is successful. Linux is successful. Sure, some are more successful than others but really, grow up people. This whole "my penis, er, OS is bigger, better, and more successful than your OS" is childish. That's the sort of rhetoric one hears in the schoolyard.

    Just use the OS that works for you and move along.

    SiO2

  • Do people really care about Mac vs. Windows? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dtjohnson ( 102237 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:00PM (#12659910)
    ...other than "tech columnists" that is. The entire world has pretty much seen about all there is to see in Windows so not much excitement there. Presumably fewer people have seen Mac but they can go down to their local outlet and check it out anytime they get the urge. Either way, this hardly seems like a 'war' between Windows and Mac. The Mac users I know don't care in the slightest who else likes it. Same for Windows users.

    When TFA author says: "It's not just me, either; it's a running sardonic joke among tech columnists that you can't even USE the word 'Apple' or 'Microsoft' without getting hate mail from somebody or other." he is probably making the whole thing up. For one thing, do tech columnists really get together and tell 'running jokes.' I doubt it. Most of them seem as serious as a heart attack and for sure they never talk to other fellow tech columnists so that they won't inadvertently give away any ideas for their next article to them.

    And then TFA author says "Interestingly, very few of you responded to that column..." but then gets missed by the cluebat and goes on to give his handful of readers a second dose of snooze.

  • Some people use both (Score:5, Insightful)

    by saddino ( 183491 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:08PM (#12659979)
    2. No condemning something until you've tried it.

    If everyone abided by this idea, about 95 percent of all the Windows-Macintosh diatribes would evaporate overnight. But here it is: If you haven't tried something, then you really have no basis to comment.

    There is an interesting corallary to this, which to this day amazes me. The token zealot (on either side) appears to believe that the world is divided amonst though who don't have either "competing" product, those who own A, and those who own B.

    Apparently, the notion of owning - and perhaps more importantly, enjoying - both products is so counter to the agenda of your garden variety fanboy, that it is anathema to their very dogma.

    • Re:Some people use both (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AliasMoze ( 623272 ) on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:48PM (#12660339)
      You know, as someone who owns and uses both a Mac and a PC (thereby insuring my lack of bias), I have been saying for a while that the difference between using the two is only slightly more acute than the difference between Coke and Pepsi. Both OS's are very stable (for me), and I'm thrilled that OS's have matured to where they're at.

      I also have to say that nearly ALL of the zealotry I see on a daily basic comes from the Mac side, and most of the time it's obvious the Mac person does not use a PC, since their claims about the Mac's superiority and the PC's tendency to crash then burst into flames are so comically absurd. Not having a preference either way constantly gets me labeled as a Mac basher or a Windows zealot. Constantly.

      Mac people are geekier about their brand. I've had many an argument devolve into the Mac person saying, "well, I guess I love the Mac, and you love the PC," to which I reply, "let's get something straight. I don't love my computers. They are machines that help me work, that's all." I've long since suspected that Mac users are trying to justify to themselves all extra money they've shelled out for their machines.
      • You know, as someone who owns and uses both a Mac and a PC (thereby insuring my lack of bias), I have been saying for a while that the difference between using the two is only slightly more acute than the difference between Coke and Pepsi.

        As someone who owns and uses and writes code for and maintains other people's code for and has released free software for and supports users on both Mac and Windows, I have good reason for my bias against Windows.

        Despite that bias, for most of the '90s I really couldn't

  • It's not Mac VS Windows (Score:2, Insightful)

    by kuzb ( 724081 )
    (note: I'm a very happy AMD64 owner, so my opinions may be slightly biased)

    It's more like Mac vs PC, Not Mac vs Windows. In fact, it should be more like OS X vs Windows.

    Any Mac user is going to tell you to sell your PC all together and get a Mac. I have a real problem with this, because the problems are not usually inherant in the PC, but in the operating system that runs on the PC.

    I think Mac users really need to step back and really *decide* just what it is they're fighting. If it's just Windows, we

  • I have Tiger, FC3 and XP on my desk at work. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by meatspray ( 59961 ) * on Friday May 27, 2005 @06:48PM (#12660337) Homepage
    Keep in mind, every OS has things it's good at.

    Most OS's get two of the following:

    Cheap - The combination of operating system, hardware, running software and updates is below or on par with the other choices.

    Easy to setup/maintain - You average inept home user can shove a disk in, follow basic directions and expect to end up with working apps, sound and video and peripherals. If any problems arise they might be able to stick in a disk that came with a piece of hardware and remedy that problem without in depth knowledge of system editors. Updates should be easy to find and nearly automatic to install. Choosing and running updates should require little to no knowledge of computers. Joe user should also be able to walk in to the nearest wally world, pick up a slide scanner take it home and get it running without calling their family computer geek.

    Stable - Would you want this OS controlling a robot doing eye surgery on you? Well you probably wouldn't want that in any case but you get my drift. Will this system do that it's intended to do without failure? Can the system be easily compromised due to minor operator oversight or ignorance?

    On my desk sits a Mac to my left, an XP box to my right and a FC3 box straight ahead.

    What the Mac does, it generally does well. Looks are obtained at the cost of speed but not so much that it makes the experience painful. It's very stable but it lacks good apps without a lot of money invested.

    The Mac is the business guy in the tailored suit, a professional but he doesn't come cheap. He isn't really any better than anyone else, but he looks the part. He's pleasant to be around and if experience matters more to you than money, he's your man.

    The Linux box is Fast, what it does, it generally does well. What it doesn't do by default requires endless toil and RTFM. It's rather stable and you can force it to do just about anything if you have enough time. Once you have all the stuff in the right places it's not hard to use but getting it to that point on all but the most generic hardware/software requires an experienced hand.

    The Linux box is the genius teenager, You can dress it up, take it out, it's a cheap date and very able. It lacks refinement and organization but makes up for it with flexibility and low expense. If you can figure out how to motivate it, minimal investment can prove a staggering return.

    The Windows box is pretty fast, fairly cheap but it takes a lot to keep it in proper condition. There's a large collection of free software that does a descent job though there's a large collection of expensive software that arguably does the job better. The biggest problem is that it will continue to work if it's not kept up to date. Eventually it will be struck down through it's unpatched insecurities. You can't leave it alone. If novices understood how important patching and not running too much cheesy third party software was, the competition would have a hard time holding on. Windows has great flexibility, unfortunately that usually comes at the cost of stability. It's all in how far you take it.

    Windows is that lazy uncle that never seems to get things right. If you keep on him he's ok (if not pretty good) at what he does, just not very trust worthy if left alone. He's pretty cheap to impress and can be dressed up, you can let him house sit, but you don't trust him with your china. Whether it's society that makes him that way or his own shortcomings is irrelevant. If you need to deal with him, keep him in his place everyone will be OK.

    With the exception of marketing gimics and minor tweaks in the product lines, Mac will continue to make moderately expensive hardware that gets combined with moderately expensive software with the main goal of providing a fantastic user experience to the unknowing public and a fair amount of flexibility to the experienced public that can afford the platform.

    Windows will continue to be reactionary to the markets needs. They will continue to create ne

  • BeOS! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by argent ( 18001 ) <peter@slashdot.2 ... m ['.ta' in gap]> on Friday May 27, 2005 @07:15PM (#12660530) Homepage Journal
    It's all the fault of you people who were too stupid to buy BeOS back when it was coming out in beta and clearly better than every other operating system on the planet! Now you're stuck complaining about systems that aren't even object oriented and don't have BeFS which could have done everything Spotlight or WinFS can do or would have if people had just used BeOS so it didn't die out back before Search was king!

  • Flames (Score:3, Funny)

    by ultranova ( 717540 ) on Saturday May 28, 2005 @10:02AM (#12663733)

    "The New York Times is running a story that I think needs to be seen by everyone on both sides of the on-going Macintosh vs. Windows debate (i.e. just about everyone who posts on Slashdot): Some ground rules for the Windows vs. Mac War."

    Well I can't see it, because it requires registration, you apple-loving worm !

    Not that I'd actually use or care about either Windows nor Mac, but still...

    Windows is a living dead virus incubator which waits for the worst possible moment to keel over and crash when not sending porn spam with pictures of the goatse man to your mother, boss and neighbours. Mac is an overpriced decoration item for yuppies too stupid to learn how to use a two-button mouse or to be able to realize that a colored computer case is not high art, built on top the dying BSD kernel. GNU/Linux is a secret communist plot by hippies who like vi since it colors C code with pretty colors to turn the world into coder's paradise and sing USSR's national anthem in assembly while urinating on the smoldering remains of Microsoft HQ.

    Now, if this post seems a bit insulting, don't forget: you could have laid out your ground rules in an open forum, webblog or something; but you chose NY Times. make a better choise next time.

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