Free Software on a Cheap Computer

Shell writes "Is this the solution to free software on a cheap computer? NetBSD and Yellow Dog Linux have both begun to support the Mac Mini. This article from IBM looks at open source operating system options on this new contender in the embedded PowerPC platform space." From the article: "This article looks at the current state of Linux and NetBSD support on the Mini. If you need all the hardware and options fully supported, these open source options won't do it for you ... yet. But, if all you need is a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, the code is high-quality and the price is unbeatable." This is part two in the series. Part One was covered a while back.

Re:OS included?

[lederhosen]

of course g4 is 32 bit, but people say the same about g5 systems

Re:OS included?

[AaronBrethorst]

Bullshit. Apple is a hardware company that happens to need to make software in order to move their pretty plastic boxes (and I am typing this on my iBook G4, FWIW).

You can get a PC for $89US at geeks.com

[saskboy]

It comes with the Case, MB, and Hard drive.

Then add a monitor = $100
Video Card = $40
Peripherals = $40
CPU = $40

Now THAT'S a cheap computer. If you're looking to save money, why buy a Mac?

Re:Sadly the support isn't complete (Airport)

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the ordinary (802.11b) airport cards are supported quite well as they use the popular orinoco chipset. Monitor mode is even supported for all your sniffing needs.

Airport Extreme (802.11g) cards remain unsupported for the same reason other broadcom chipset based cards are - no information was released on how to actually use these chips.

Re:Cheap? Hardly.

[nunchux]

You fail to mention that this system is listed at nearly double that price, and the link shows you how to go through rebate hell to get a deal. And the deal expires tonight.

Re:Cheap? Hardly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever tried to display anything full screen in OS X? Apparently not, judging by your comment... as far as movies, DVD Player, QuickTime Player, Windows Media Player, RealPlayer, VLC, and mplayer all have full screen options right in their menu bars. And almost every game DEFAULTS to being full screen... to run it in a window, you have to go change the settings somewhere.

Perhaps you are referring to the difference between windows maximize window and OS X's zoom window functions. This is a matter of preference (one makes windows take up the whole screen, the other makes them fit their contents to save screen real estate). In general, which ever you are used to is the one you prefer (for example, Photoshop on Windows drives me nuts for this very reason).

Re:Cheap? Hardly.

[McDutchie]

$500 for a plain, low end box is not cheap. A Dell 2.8 GHz P4 with a 19" LCD, keyboard, and mouse for $529 [gotapex.com] is cheap.

No DVD player in the Dell, nor FireWire, nor a modem, nor a stack of bundled software, nor 90 days of free telephone support. Nor is it small, or silent. Laptop technology, which is what the Mini uses, is more expensive.

Just because the Dell costs less doesn't mean the Mac Mini isn't cheap, especially since the box contains more in less space.

Re:OS included?

[bonch]

Except that the Mac mini isn't a 64-bit G5.

Re:Haven't I Heard this Before?

[Anonymous Coward]

When Broadcom grows a heart and releases the specs to its 802.11g chipset.

Re:not the point

[the_2nd_coming]

how about the fact that 300 dollar computers do not come with firewire, dvd drives, cd writers, modems, and all the good software that comes with OS X,

Fullscreen in QTP

[Monx]

if you are reffering to quicktime, yes, they charge for fullscreen

They just charge for the menu item:

tell application "QuickTime Player"
enter full screen display 1
set the scale of movie 1 to screen
play movie 1
end tell

Re:Cheap? Hardly.

[bcrowell]

You fail to mention that this system is listed at nearly double that price, and the link shows you how to go through rebate hell to get a deal. And the deal expires tonight.
The grandparent's point is perfectly valid. Fry's sells Great Quality brand generic PCs for $180-250. I've bought several of them to run Linux on, and they've worked just fine. The price doesn't include a monitor, but that's not an issue if you already have one.

It boggles my mind that people are still referring to a $500 computer as cheap. That hasn't been a good price since at least five years ago.

Re:Why not OS X?

[Anonymous Coward]

One possible point---you don't want to pay again, every 12 months or so.

Then don't. Steve Jobs won't show up at your house and kick your dog if you don't upgrade. Also, Apple has said that OS development is going to slow down a bit - a new release every couple years.

Another---you don't want to pay for apps

Good thing that they'll have Fink, Portage, Darwin Ports, etc. to get access to all those great open source apps. And just in case Mom want's to use Microsoft Excel to catch up on work, she'll have access to that too.

you want some of the things that are better than in OS X, such as modern X font rendering or Mozilla Firefox.

Quartz renders text pretty nicely in firefox now.

you want to be able to repair and upgrade your operating system; better yet, to have those fixes and changes integrated so that everyone can use them.

OpenDarwin.org and developer.apple.com will get you started

you're afraid of vendor lock-in, and want to make sure that your OS and apps are supported into the future.

Considering that applications written for System 7 and M68k will still run on a Dual G5 with OS X 10.4, that sounds like a good reason to use OS X.

Shall I go on?

Certainly, right after you start. Posted anonymously because I already clicked that stupid moderate button.

Re:Sadly the support isn't complete (Airport)

[Nichotin]

Search for broadcom on sourceforge, and you will find a project for reverse engineering the driver.

Re:Debian too

[rjw57]

I already run Ubunto on my Mini.

But can it act as an "embedded" computer?

[2nd Post!]

The whole premise of the article is: An embedded view of the Mac Mini

So for $499 you get an entire solution as an embedded computer; developer tools, OS, and hardware.

For your $98+$40+$40 (case, mb, hard drive, video card, and CPU), where are your developer tools, OS, ram, and SIZE?

Can you place your $178 (+ram, OS, development tools), inside a car? A backpack? A handheld?

The point of the embedded development system is that you can use your tools and hardware from your development environment and transfer it into production. IE, an embedded PowerPC.

Where is the LOW POWER embedded Pentium 4 or embedded Athlon? Your proposed solution would be to develop on a $200 Intel PC for a $80 PowerPC solution.

The Mac mini proposed solution would be to develop on a $499 PowerPC for the same $80 PowerPC solution.

Your idea works great... if you're developing for the XBox. For all the other PowerPC devices (like say the TiVo, or maybe the GameCube, or the future PS3, Revolution, or XBox2), it seems kind of backward.

Re:Cheap? Hardly.

[McDutchie]

I meant the CD/RW drive in the Dell cannot handle DVD's. In the Apple there is a CD/RW+DVD combo. Sorry for being unclear.

What neck of the woods do you live in? As far as I know, the majority of Internet access still occurs through dial-up, so I don't agree with your assertion that modems are hardly used anymore. Nor have I heard of any ISP that includes a modem with a dial-up account.

In any case, you seem to be arguing that the Dell costs less, with which I was not disagreeing. What I disagreed with is that the Mac mini is not cheap. In fact I think it's very cheap for what you get. That it may not be what some (or maybe even most) people want doesn't change that.

OS X

[dfj225]

I have to agree with many of the other posters here about the selling point for most Mac hardware is OS X. Don't get me wrong, I like linux and its great for a lot of purposes, but on my laptop, I just want everything to function properly without having to think of it. If I can get a system that does that using a Unix core, then I'm interested right there. My iBook is a nice piece of hardware, but it isn't really anything special. What is special is OS X. I can't really say that any other operating system can match it when you evaluate it as a whole. If it wasn't for OS X, I'd probably have a Windows laptop and just left Linux to run my server.

Re:Cheap? Hardly.

[dink353]

First off, this web site is always listing PC's from Dell with those kinds of prices. Sure, the rebates and deals will end tonight, but another one always follows. Rebate hell? I think not. Rebates are childlishly simple. I have done quite a few, and rebates that will get back about $400? Sign me UP! It is a shame BestBuy customers can't quite grasp the concept... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/02/061723 4&tid=187&tid=98&tid=126

Re:OS included?

[duffbeer703]

"...it was a HELL of a lot cheaper than the Wintel laptop I considered (1300 w/ educational deal, plus 69 for another iPod, vs 2100 for the Dell I would have otherwise got [centrino])."

That's like saying that a Honda Civic is better than a Bentley because the Civic costs $13k and the Bentley $130k.

A $1300 iBook is a much lower end machine in comparison to a $2100 centrino machine. The Dell you compared had a bigger, higher resolution screen, faster CPU, more memory and hard disk.

Mac hardware is excellent, but more expensive -- you could get a laptop similar to your iBook for about $300 less.

I'm buying a Powerbook when Tiger is released, understanding that I'm paying a premium over what I would pay for another functionally similar Thinkpad T42 or T43.

Re:What about Mini-ITX platform?

[LongShip]

I'm currently agonizing over the decision to build a Mini-ITX or buy a ready made MiniMac. I'm probably going to do the Mini-ITX. However,...

Unfortunately Mini-ITX is not cost effective. One has to specifically want either an extremely small, or extremely quiet computer and be willing to pay the admission price. The MiniMac offers both at a very good price (comparitively).

In order to compete with MiniMac, a Mini-ITX box would have an MII-12000 MoBo ($200+ US) plus a small box like one of the Casetronic Travla's (~$150), low profile memory (~$80), a slim optical drive (~$80+), and a notebook hard drive (the only cost effective peripheral ~$70). Total cost, ~%570. The Mini-ITX would have user service-ability, Compact Flash + PC-Card, and better connectivity. But the G4-based MiniMac would blow the doors off the C3 Nehemiah-based Mini-ITX box.

Until Mini-ITX components come down in price, the MiniMac might be the more cost effective solution.
But only in the very small, very quiet computer market. As others in this forum have already pointed out, one can build a faster X86 box for less money. If one doesn't care about small and quiet, that's the way to go.

Re:OS included?

[argent]

And OS X can run a lot of BSD stuff without too much work.

Yeh, it's a checkbox in the installer.

Re:OS included?

[ciroknight]

At the time, the machine I compared it against had a smaller HD (40gb vs the 60 in my iBook), a faster processor (1.8 centrino), the same amount of memory, and a bit better screen resolution (15" display, 1280x760 or something really weird like that), and a bit of a better warrantee (3 years, which I guess I have the option of getting with Apple; Dell wanted to force it down my throat. Also, take in account this was before Dell was giving away the world with their machines..). The thing is, I wouldn't need that much power if the damned operating system that came with it (Windows XP Pro, another few bucks on the price, regardless) would simply do its job and not require as fancy hardware. Yes, I evaluated Linux as a possibility; I run Linux on my desktop machine at home, simply because it's a bit older, and all of the stuff that came with it (by the graces of a few donating coders in the world) was supported. I knew if I got a laptop, I wouldn't be so lucky. Also keep in mind I only evaluated Dell; by the time I saw Panther, I was sold.

Re:SemiOT: Connecting a mac mini to a linux PC

[Porter Doran]

You may not need crossover -- straight ethernet will do, as the Mac's NIC will "cross" the connection if it senses it needs to.

Crossover cables suck

[Just Some Guy]

Got your attention? OK. What I mean is that you really want to avoid crossover cables if you can. That's because except in the very limited (and relatively rare) case where you'll only ever be connecting exactly two computers, you're usually better off investing in a cheap switch and connecting through that.

In the almost inevitable situation where you'll want to add a third computer - say, a friend drops by with a laptop - you can just plug it in to the switch and start using it. If you've used crossover cables, though, you'll find yourself in a mad dash to the store for the same switch plus the straight cables to replace your now-useless crossover.

I understand that Macs can automatically sense which sort of cable you're using. If that's true, then at least start off with a straight cable so that you can still use it when you eventually upgrade to a switched network.

Re:OS included?

[galaxy300]

I disagree. I think Apple hardware is getting much more affordable. I feel pretty strongly that a G4 iBook at $999 (add $25 for an extra 256 MB RAM aftermarket) is one of the best deals out there.

That may be because I just bought one, but I did my research first, including having a couple of other laptops at home to play around with. A laptop "similar" to the iBook for $300 less would simply be a cheap laptop, and that's *not* a good deal.

Re:Unbeatable?

[TheRaven64]

As an example, MacOS lacks the aio API

Wrong. That's the second time I've seen this on Slashdot. OS X includes a full implementation of the POSIX aio specification. Take a look in /usr/include/sys/aio.h. I have spent the last month developing software on OS X that makes extensive use of this facility. What OS X does lack, is the man pages to go along with these system calls (although the documentation in the header file is not bad).

Re:OS included?

[John_Booty]

The real question here is: Why would I give a crap about a free OS for a computer which already comes with a better one as a standard feature?

No, the real question is, "did you read the opening post?"

Not the linked article - the opening post. It clearly says, "This article from IBM looks at open source operating system options on this new contender in the embedded PowerPC platform space"

Key word here is "embedded", which implies a whole different ballgame compared to desktop or server computers. Google if you're unfamiliar with the term. A feature-rich GUI desktop OS is not ideal for the embedded market.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

iBook is not reliable!

[bani]

The iBook is legendarily unreliable. My friend's iBook (nicknamed "iBork") has had to be sent back to apple for repairs no less than 3 times...

apple faced class action lawsuits [appleinsider.com] over the iBook fiascos [macopinion.com].

I'd seriously [appleinsider.com] reconsider [lowendmac.com] recommending an iBook [wikipedia.org] to anyone. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't to the person you recommend it to. And statistically speaking, the ibook is very prone to failure compared to other laptops.

A powerbook is probably ok though.

Re:As opposed to...

[WatertonMan]

OSX has some 64bit extensions, but it isn't a 64 bit OS by any means. Even Tiger, which allows command line programs to be fully 64 bit won't allow applications utilizing graphics to be 64 bit. (Although I think X11 programs can be)

Re:iBook is not reliable!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry about the comments on iBook reliability. All of those stories relate to the known defective later iBook G3 line. Not one relates to iBook G4s, which are the ones sold by Apple for the last 18 months. They are known as rock solid little performers.

Re:OS included?

[Anonymous Coward]

Blame the patent system, not the distro, XMMS provides rpms that have full mp3 support and work fine with Fedora. They aren't hard to install, but to each his own.

Ditto

[Craig Ringer]

Ditto. In both senses - that is, been there done that, and "use the program `ditto' to do it".

`ditto' is the program the Mac developers wrote instead of tweaking all the UNIX utilities to work with their dual-forked filesystem. Never, ever, ever use `cp' on MacOS/X - only `ditto'.

Guess what isn't mentioned in the `cp' man page?

Contempt without investigation has a name: ignora

[AHumbleOpinion]

Contempt without investigation has a name: ignorance. Grandma's and graphic designers use Macs. Real nerds use Linux.

Pot. Kettle. Black. You just proved your ignorance.

"Ben Gutierrez writes "Paul Graham has posted a new essay on the Return of the Mac which begins with: 'All the best hackers I know are gradually switching to Macs.' Tim O'Reilly said some similar things in Watching Alpha Geeks. From the article: "My friend Robert said his whole research group at MIT recently bought themselves Powerbooks. These guys are not the graphic designers and grandmas who were buying Macs at Apple's low point in the mid 1990s. They're about as hardcore OS hackers as you can get.""

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/29/ 1818256&tid=156&tid=3&tid=218

Re:OS included? Two Os's can be included

[loraksus]

If you want to, you can always hit the terminal, or even boot up to a console on the mac. Not sure why you'd want to, but the ability is there.