Hacking Quartz 298
Exposed writes "Meaty interview with Rich Wareham who is known to Linux users for his libdvdnav library which is used by Xine and other linux players. On OS X he created Desktop Manager, the GPL solution for VirtualDesktops on the Mac. Highlights are secret APIs in OS X for VirtualDesktops, who steals GPL source and why beginner programmers are at a disadvantage now."
Good (not bad) article (interview) (Score:4, Interesting)
Regardless, I found the content to be very interesting, particularly the fact that Desktop Manager is the guy's first Mac application.
Many people feel Expose serves well enough (Score:5, Interesting)
I think Apple has just not focused any energy on an "Apple Way" to manipulate virtual desktops. It's a tricky UI problem and probably the work needed to keep programs in different rooms is too "virtual" for many people. Note that he did state Apple made changes that were seemingly very favorable to the writing of DesktopManager, so it would seem the folks at Apple are at least nuturing the concept - and if they ever do include such a program I don't think you'll see any sour grapes from this guy as he is already giving it away.
I did like his idea for "Window Wells" (even though I think that was the interviewers term) a lot, so instead of virtual desktops being really virtual you have "clumps" of windows on screen (which are your virtual desktops) that you can click on like small expose'ed windows to expand the desktop. I'm still not sure of the best way to get windows in or out of these desktops.
Re:Not such a good app (Score:4, Interesting)
Granted, no, this is 'not your dad's desktop manager' in the sense that you're used to in X, but it's still a far cry improvement from not having it at all, and if you look at the sources, his readme's, and heck, just this interview, he has some interesting improvements coming down the pipe.
But if you want to cry instability, let's hear it:
What's your hardware specs?
What OS?
What version of Desktop Manager?
Hardly insightful, more like casual dismissial (Score:5, Interesting)
If Apple were about "One Way", you would not have the nice integration between the finder and Terminal. You can stick to the Finder to find documents or manipulate files - or you can just use the Terminal, or you can use a hybrid of the two and drag files into the Termainl from the finder and get a full path expanded for you in the middle of some command.
Note in the article that he mentions Apple made some API changes which were very favorible to Desktop Manager. They could have switched stuff around to crush him like a bug. But they instead made changes that helped - does that sound like a company bent on the "One Way" to do everything?
As I've said before I really think Apple and virtual desktops is not so much an issue that they do not want it, as they have not invested the mental energy to solve the UI problem of the user maintenience of virtusl desktops - moving windows between, making sure the right windows wind up in the right desktops, etc. If anything I think virtual desktops will arise in OS X through an evolution of Expose, though in the end it may not be quite virtual desktops as we know them today.
Re:That's just standard Apple mentality for you (Score:3, Interesting)
"Yeah, our App tends to crash Expose. Use Virtual Desktops instead."
Visual Basic is not bundled and manualed (Score:5, Interesting)
Even OS X, which does at least ship with developer tools in every box really makes no mention of them.
The thing about computers before was that it was super easy to just write ten lines of code and have something happen. Now you have to hunt down an IDE or an editor, and chances are you're writing a lot more than ten lines even for Hello World! The computers now have (as he said) a much higher barrier to entry of manipulation, though of course you can do a million times more if you do break that barrier - so I'd say the only hope is that the rewards of crossing that barrier are enough to lure people over.
I agree with him that this is a real problem, far fewer people are exposed to the manipulation of computers at a young age and instead computers are treated as black boxes, not to be touched. Cars are headed the same way to some extent but there already was a much more powerful and widespread culture built up around people and engines, so it's a lot harder for that to vanish. I wish that more people would be able to think of computers as more like cars and less like toasters.
Re:Or not... (Score:2, Interesting)
Unfortunately, VB so spoiled me in elementary and middle school that I still can't sit down long enough to learn to combine C and GTK, or C++ and QT, or Perl and Tk. I have managed to do some stuff with C and SDL, though.
Difficulties for beginning programmers (Score:3, Interesting)
I disagree. Those points were more true a few years ago, but, at least with OS X, you have plenty of potential. First of all, there's Applescript and Applescript Studio. It's really easy to get a program started that does far more than in the old days, since most of your basic user interface work is done for you, and you can draw on the power of every installed application on your computer. Mind you, learning how to program Applescript is not like learning to program most languages, but it's a really good test of your problem-solving skills.
The other part is web programming. Nowadays, if you can get a computer that's visible to the internet, or an account on a web server that allows custom CGIs, you can make custom programs that will not only be cool to you, but potentially cool to the entire world. That's a lot more incentive than you had in the old days, or at least a different kind of incentive. It might even make for more solid coders in the future, since hobbyist and learning programmers nowadays get to see people trashing their programs repeatedly, so there's good reason to make them work properly.
No, it's not the same, and it's may not be particularly easy to get started in the windows world, but for the rest of us, there are plenty of good opportunities for the beginning programmers.
=Brian
This is only worrying (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't quite like the Windows situation for two reasons.
One, the problem in Windows is mostly that MS's hidden APIs are for (1) very important and basic things and (2) used extensively by MS's in-house apps.
Two, Apple's been very good not just about keeping competitors on a level API playing field with Apple's apps, they've been very good about actually moving functionality OUT of Apple's inhouse apps and into public APIs. Witness searchlight services, or CoreGraphics. These were functionalities in Apple inhouse apps that Apple decided would be useful to other people, so they sucked it into the OS and made a public API for it...
Re:Somewhere in the middle (Score:4, Interesting)
With XCode and InterfaceBuilder (the IDE tools that ship with MacOS X) I can whip up a text editor with support for rich text (fonts, formatting, colors, embedded images, etc) in under 20 lines of code (half of which are written for me), and a few minutes.
I would say that it has become far easier to get complex things done in programming, and for a lot of tasks the entry level has gone down, but of course our expectations have increased enormously.
Re:Hardly insightful, more like casual dismissial (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Desktop Manager is Amazing (Score:4, Interesting)
Steals GPL source??? (Score:5, Interesting)
Where is this in the article? I read the whole thing, then went back and searched for every occurrence of "steal" (zero results) and "GPL". The only part that mentions Virtual Desktops is that CodeTek can't use the Desktop Manager source in their closed source app because it's GPLed. The relevant section is:
"I still get some emails accusing me of being petty and small minded for GPL-ing Desktop Manager since CodeTek can't easily use my code. That is silly since they are quite capable of re-implementing Desktop Manager in a far better way using my techniques. I haven't tried (nor could I probably) claim control over how people use the APIs I discovered."
Nowhere does this claim that Virtual Desktops is using, let alone stealing, anything from his source. Unless I missed something here, I fail to see how such a statement is anything more than libel.
No virtual desktops as there are multiple desktops (Score:2, Interesting)
Because that would be confusing as there are real multiple desktops. You can have multiple desktops active at the same time. Say one for surfing and loading trojans by accident and another for online banking and you know that they are safely separated from each other.
It's called Fast User Switching, but realise that they are all active at the same time. Adding virtual desktops which are not separate would confuse the user and water down simple secure separation of tasks functionality.
Oops, I thought I did my finacnes on another desktop but I guess I've accidentally shared it with this guy who send me a funny application via mail or chat, because the separation was virtual/visual only.
You can have separate desktops on Mac OS X and they are really separate, that is a major plus!
Sure I would like multiple desktops within one user account but they should be separate and only have user permitted information exchange, nothing automatically allowed. Yes, that would be called sandboxing and I advocated sandboxes [quicknet.nl] for Mac OS 10.3. I hope they will be in 10.4 as a 2005 surprise because it would stop trojan applications and even protect against a bug in the webbrowser or email applications if those would run inside their own sandbox.
Yes, you can still ask Apple for Sandboxes as they have introduced the basic technology in 10.3 and still have many months before 10.4 is ready.
Dennis SCP
Re:More power but how many know it's there? (Score:3, Interesting)
I suspect a larger problem, if you want to call it that, is that computers do so much more than they used to. It's harder to find something that isn't already written, at least for the beginning programmer. On the other hand, the people who want to program computers tend to have a greater calling to it than just the users. They see the box, they see the potential, and they want to reach out and use that potential. That's what really drew me into programming, not the fact that there was BASIC right there, but that I saw the potential and wanted to exploit it.
Okay, let's take an example. AIM bots. Kids these days will chat with people over AIM, and they'll run across a bot. Some kids will get annoyed, some won't realize they're talking to a bot, and some will see the limitations of the bot and want to make their own. Once you see that a bot can be made and used by normal people, then the people who are going to want to program them will figure it out. They'll hit google and type "how to program aim bot" or simialar, and poof! The world is their mollusc.
Parents are also likely to help with this, hopefully. All the parents have to do is say, "You know, you could write programs, too." Even if the parents don't know how, I would be very surprised if some quick work on Google won't reveal answers. I'd also be surprised if kids today don't look up most of their facts on Google. It's easy, it's everywhere, and it's something they are growing up with.
As for hosting web apps, though it's not a perfect solution, and not as easy to show the entire world as I made out before, it's really easy to do out of the box in OS X. Turn on personal web hosting, drop in some CGI, and play around.
So: not the same, absolutely, but it's not a wasteland for potential programmers. The soil is fertile, the seeds just need to be dropped in.
=Brian
Re:Big Brick Walls (Score:5, Interesting)
SDL is a beautiful, compact API that's also nicely extensible (eg. SDL_image [libsdl.org], SDL_mixer [libsdl.org], SDL_net [libsdl.org], smpeg, etc.). There's no *way* you need 150 lines of code to do interesting things with SDL.
Re:Many people feel Expose serves well enough (Score:5, Interesting)
It would be much less efficient for me to collect all the files
I need using Expose. I tend to use Expose as a cute way to switch between say 5 Safari windows. It would be hideous trying to organize 50 windows with it.
Sure it's a side effect... (Score:2, Interesting)
The original poster sort if implied Apple was hostle to other ways of doing things - but I would say that at worst they are indifferent, and there is some evidence they are a little better than that in reality.
Focus Follow Mouse... (Score:3, Interesting)
Alas, multimonitor support is still pending, and Codetek gives me what I need even more than virtual desktops - Focus Follows Mouse!
I sorely miss good focus-follows-mouse support; I know it's possible to enable it for X11 and Terminal.app, but only CTVD seems to allow enabling focus-follows-mouse across the whole system.
-Isaac Salpeter
iVillage Operations
Re:Good (not bad) article (interview) (Score:5, Interesting)
Just to clear this up, I didn't add anything to his remarks in any way, I did however format what was in parantheses in italics, simply because that's how I like to read (with something in italics being the continuation of a thought, and italics helps me jump out of it and back to the main thread). Whether or not that is the correct thing to do is something I'll have to be educated on.
This is part of a larger series of chats I'm doing with people whose work/projects I find interesting, or topics I feel deserve some thought... and its obviously a case of a soup chef being given a piece of filet mignon and doing the best he can with it.
That would be very handy... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This is only worrying (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, they don't, not really. There are two sets of calls he was talking about. There are the calls related to organizing the window hierarchy and splitting it. Nobody uses those calls. They may--this could be completely wrong, because I have done zero reading on the subject--date back to NEXTSTEP. Lots of little things in Cocoa do.
The other set is related to the rotating-cube transition. Only one process calls that code.
So these aren't pieces of code that are widely reused within Apple's programs.
Think for me apps have replaced that need (Score:5, Interesting)
For project sets, I generally tend to close open windows nad have project related Finder windows open - threating them sort of like rooms. Since it's so quick just to open a document and not have to think if the program is open or not, having an icon in Finder is almost as good as a live window.
Even when I was using virtual desktops more heavily I was using programs like Emacs (actually I still use Emacs very heavily) where having 200 files open was as easy as two.
I'm not saying your pattern of working is any better or worse than any other, evryone thinks in different ways - I'm just trying to explain how people can be OK with no virtual desktops and still using working on a lot of projects at once.
I think we are all missing something here (Score:2, Interesting)
I mean why would they include a feature that (except for expose) that would take away from the main selling point of these huge displays i.e acres and acres of display real estate?
Re:Many people feel Expose serves well enough (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Honed to a fine sheen? (Score:1, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong, I love Mozilla to death but I prefer the way Safari does the tab close button.
Re:Why it wasn't put in already (Score:3, Interesting)
The First one opens 5 different web pages in a browser full screen, in Different tabs.
The Second one opens and checks email, loads and connects to three different IM protocols(one client) and, connects to two IRC servers
The third one is a full screen konsole, with transparent background and no menu's or title bars.
The Fourth screen Opens up a File manager set two two different working directories, as well as 6 Sticky notes on the side of the desktop.
Can expose match the quick search features of all that in literally a click??? I can switch desktops, and which windows I am using with either ctrl-tab or a click on the pager.
Just because though I have set KDE 3.2 to look like aqua, it does look and feel better than anything else.
Re:Or not... (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, I would have said that Perl (and Perl/Tk for creating GUIs) is the equivalent BASIC these days. Simple, straightforward, free and cross-platform
YMMV, of course
Re:Why it wasn't put in already (Score:3, Interesting)
I am well familiar with how pagers work. For my purposes however the fact that the mac automatically categorizes windows based on parent application provides a far more useful and natural idiom than the somewhat more manual mechanism provided by virtual desktops.
Re:Why it wasn't put in already (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, and just so this isn't flamebait -- my own opinion of shells does not mean that yours is invalid. I bought a Mac because I like the graphical user interface. I understand a lot of people know the CLI like the back of their hand and would never THINK of writing an AppleScript to do what they can already do in Perl. But I've also seen a lot of people swear at a poorly written regular expression that would be much more understandable -- and reusable -- as a Macro in BBEdit. More options does not mean more control, it just means you need to learn more before you can obtain control.