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Media (Apple) Businesses Media Music Apple

PlayFair Pulled Due to DMCA Request 711

doubleacr writes "MacSlash is reporting that PlayFair has been removed from SourceForge.net. Didn't see that one coming." We posted about PlayFair on Monday. SourceForge.net received a DMCA complaint from Apple on Thursday, claiming PlayFair is in violation of the anti-circumvention provision of the DMCA, section 1201(a)(2). As per SourceForge.net policy, the project has been disabled. Should the project managers file a counterclaim, the project could be restored. SourceForge.net is owned by OSDN, the parent company of Slashdot.
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PlayFair Pulled Due to DMCA Request

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  • Lest we forget... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Gothic_Walrus ( 692125 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @01:56PM (#8817497) Journal
    Once a file's made it to the internet, it's always going to be available. Undergroud websites, file sharing, Usenet groups...it's still available. It's just become a bit harder to find.

    In this case, though, that's a moot point, seeing as it's been rehosted. Oh well.

  • Apple has no right (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Sloppy ( 14984 ) * on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:00PM (#8817549) Homepage Journal
    Unless you mean the music publishing company. Which of Apple Computer's copyrighted works, does PlayFair remove the protection from?
  • ...you need to have a Terms of Service to deal with junx like this. We've got one on RubyForge [rubyforge.org] just in case...
  • by garcia ( 6573 ) * on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:03PM (#8817592)
    We are allowing for bad precedents to be set. The more we allow to slip out the more we will lose. Are we going to allow shrink-wrap EULAs on CDs when we open them now? "This CD is the only medium you can listen to this music on. You may not encode, rip, record via analog, etc"?
  • by MP3Chuck ( 652277 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:03PM (#8817599) Homepage Journal
    But therein lies the problem of the DMCA... True "Fair Use" becomes criminal.

    Strange thing is, this program just quickens what one could already do. I could very easily burn my MP4's to CD, then rip back to MP4 and (if done right) there will be little or no loss. But the bottom line is that PlayFair reaches an ends equal to what one could do with iTunes.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:05PM (#8817624)
    Its a great thing this was taken off. Finally we see some good prices, and some good technology to protect the artists. And yeah, there will always be ways around the protection... but leave it for the L33t; dont give it to the masses.
  • by ignipotentis ( 461249 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:06PM (#8817635)
    I'm very pleased with it. I get ALL my purchased music from it.

    Maybe you should take a look at
    this [arstechnica.com]. Everyone knew it wasn't going to last, but I'm shocked at how quickly the music industry has changed their minds on on-line pricing.


  • by seangw ( 454819 ) <seangw@sean[ ]com ['gw.' in gap]> on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:12PM (#8817701) Homepage
    That no matter how good/bad the encryption mechanism is, people can't break it.

    If I published software that "encrypted" an audio stream by reversing the bits, and someone figured it out or wrote software to get rid of my "encryption" scheme, then I could just start a legal battle against all those who try to publish against me?

    This is a wild, unpredictable, capitalistic world, not a pre-school.

  • by Beatbyte ( 163694 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:12PM (#8817705) Homepage
    I want more money too but that doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

    They can't justify that price increase though.

    Apple is footing the bill for the backend stuff.
    They're not distributing physical goods.
    They don't have store fronts.

    And if they do increase the price, more piracy will definitely be happening. And they will bitch again.
  • by proverbialcow ( 177020 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:16PM (#8817766) Journal
    I agree 100%, and would like to add - it's not like you can't burn those AAC's to CD. Hell, with all the iTunes songs I keep winning from Pepsi ... for some reason ... I just go to my neighbor and have him burn the songs I want to CD-RW. He gets to keep the songs, I can make mp3s, and I don't even have to waste a CD.
  • by diamondsw ( 685967 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:20PM (#8817810)
    I fully expect this to be struck down in the same way action against DeCSS was struck down. PlayFair only allows those who have already legally purchased the music to remove the DRM protections - something that was already possible with burning and re-ripping.

    Apple is no friend of DRM, but you can bet they are going to do what is necessary to maintain their relationship with the music labels, particularly in light of the labels trying to raise prices and increase restrictions.

    The end result of this is moot. Some will say the cat's out of the bag, the genie's out of the bottle, etc, but that's not the case. The cat was never in the bag - this could always be accomplished by a simple burn/rip cycle.

    (And before people point out that this doesn't require lossy recompression, seriously consider how many people will leave the file in AAC format, rather than transcode it to the ever-popular MP3.)
  • by openmtl ( 586918 ) <polarbear&btinternet,com> on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:20PM (#8817811) Journal

    Huh - weird, I thought Sourceforge was related to Free/Open Source software. Odd how relevant that the DMCA is to this goal.

    Sounds like free and Open Source world requires a better domicile which is unaffected by parochial considerations. Maybe time that the EU or UN hosted software for and on behalf of the free world.

    Its a serious consideration as the US seems to be cyclical based on presidential terms whereas the EU or UN has no such short term considerations to trample rights.

    Apple should realise that the only way to protect youself from Open Source is to adopt a strong cryptographically signed service. There is no intrinsic value is any line of code but in code as a service. Sounds like lazy programmer bugs fixed by application of lawyer.

  • by clickster ( 669168 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:21PM (#8817829)
    My complaint about AAC -> CD -> OGG/MP3 would be the fact that I have to continually burn coasters. I like my music in MP3 format because then any of my devices can read them (MP3 car CD player, Creative MuVo Nomad, WinAmp, etc.). I burn my music to CD for my car, but it's still in MP3 format so that I can burn a lot of songs on a single CD. Burning standard audios CDs of every song just so that I can get an MP3 of it is ridiculous. I don't drink enough to use that many coasters.
  • by badasscat ( 563442 ) <basscadet75@yah o o . c om> on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:25PM (#8817871)
    Just to play devils advocate, it's not as if people who bought their music from Apple weren't aware of the "limitations" of it's use. If they were, then it's no one's fault but their own.

    And FairPlay is the main reason I never signed up for the iTunes store. I have 4 PC's at home alone, and one PC at work - what, I can only play the songs I purchase on 3 of them? Sorry, but that's BS.

    Something like PlayFair would actually encourage me (and people like me, of which I know there are a lot on this site alone) to download music from iTunes. I want Apple's quality, I want the convenience, and I want to be legal. Why do Apple and the RIAA insist on making it so hard for me to use their service?
  • by 4r0g ( 467711 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:25PM (#8817880)
    Winamp 5 plays AAC. Many new mobile phones play AAC since it's one of the 3GPP standard streaming codecs as well as being part of the MPEG-4 standard. RealPlayer plays AAC. AAC is quickly establishing itself as the de facto codec for at least commercial music content, although WMA is strong in CE devices.

    But I agree with your first point. Apple is being very honest wrt what the limitations are, and since they are more flexible and honest than others, they have succeeded with their DRM.

  • by dimension6 ( 558538 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:27PM (#8817895)
    Of course, when you turn your newly burned CD (from the AAC iTunes tracks) into MP3, the quality will be very diminished, because AAC and MP3 compress in rather different ways. You're essentially compressing it twice; once as AAC, and once as MP3 (the artifacts in each compression will be compounded). PlayFair will remove the need to reencode it, thus improving the quality.
  • by spanklin ( 710953 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:40PM (#8818081)
    And FairPlay is the main reason I never signed up for the iTunes store. I have 4 PC's at home alone, and one PC at work - what, I can only play the songs I purchase on 3 of them? Sorry, but that's BS.

    And the counterargument that gets made to comments like yours is that you can burn the tracks to a CD and play it anywhere. You can even re-rip it and listen to the tracks DRM free on 1,000 PCs if you have them.

    The counterargument to my counterargument is that by burning & re-ripping you are losing quality, but the counterargument to this counterargument of my counterargument is that if you were enough of an audiophile to care about this, you wouldn't be buying 128K mp4s from iTMS anyway.

  • by pla ( 258480 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:52PM (#8818342) Journal
    They basically broke the law

    No, they didn't.

    PlayFair actually checks that you have a valid key to use the downloaded music. It won't work on music that you haven't paid for. Thus, it doesn't "circumvent" the DRM, it fully enforces it. It does, however, change what happens to the music for those with legal access to it. Rather than play it, it writes the perfectly-legitimately-accessed music stream to a non-DRM'd AAC file.

    Call such a distinction nit-picking, but that very fact means the difference between a DMCA violation and a legal use of one's purchased music.

    Now, an end-user actually doing this process may violate their contract with Apple, but that differs drastically from the authors of PlayFair violating the DMCA.


    you just gotta get your DMCA violating source code from an off-shore ISP or get sourceforge to relocate.

    Exactly what happened - The project relocated to Sarovar, an Indian equivalent to SourceForge. Since India lacks an equivalent to the DMCA, the project should count as legal now.


    Interestingly, I'd like any readers of this to really stop and think about what that means - A project designed to protect our fair use (a concept itself (theoretically) recognized in the US but not in all countries) may have broken US law (unless this goes to trial, we can't say they did break the law), simply by moving to another country, magically becomes legal.

    So, the DMCA has so much validity that one can circumvent it (how apropos <G>) merely by changing where the "illegal" codebase resides? Definite problem there... Which of course, rather than address in any meaningful way, US lawmakers will try to "fix" by imposing the DMCA on the entire world via treaties (such as those currently under debate in the UN).

    Dike, meet fingers. Fingers, meet Dike.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:55PM (#8818395)
    Apparently you do not realize that you dont actually have to burn a CD-R to convert AAC->AIFF->OGG/MP3


    There are several ways to do this.

    The simplest is to open the AAC song in iMovie; this converts the song to AIFF and places it in the iMovie Project folder. Another way is to burn the song to a CD-RW which can be recycled. You can also capture the stream when you play it.


    Obviously, the iMusic conversion is just a kludge hack that anyone can do. There are programs out there that automate this and dont require the services of iMovie to do it. Its a quicktime feature being used. The fact that you can do it with iMovie just demostrates the point.

  • it's not the RIAA (Score:2, Interesting)

    by xlyz ( 695304 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:55PM (#8818397) Journal

    this time I don't think the problem it's the RIAA.
    iTunes does not make any money [theregister.co.uk]
    Apple earns money from selling the hardware (iPod e c.)
    So they can never let to play their songs withouth their buying anything else from them
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 09, 2004 @02:56PM (#8818430)
    I like the GPL, but I don't like the Apple terms. What's wrong with supporting one over the other? They are completely different.

    If the DMCA is revoked, then Apple's terms have less teeth, but the GPL remains.

    If copyright law is revoked, the GPL becomes unnecessary.

    The GPL is aligned with my needs, and based on how little it is violated, it must be aligned with a lot of other people's needs too. The Apple license is not quite as friendly.

    I understand the thinking behing posts like this that attempt to create some kind of equivalence between the GPL and other licenses, but you can clearly see they are not the same. Dig deeper and you'll see why it's okay to like one and not the other.
  • by bayvult ( 555108 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @03:20PM (#8818800)
    "... Jobs is quoted as saying the his PHds said you can't make a DRM that stops piracy completely.

    Which is presumably why Apple employs Phds to 1) devise new forms of DRM [uspto.gov]

    and 2) head the Copy Protection Technology Working Group with Sony and Warner Brothers. [google.com]

    They look as snug as three bugs in a rug.
  • Or how about you just learn to tolerate an alternative fucking viewpoint, huh, chuckles?

    Not everybody wants to bask in your Open Source Society. Some of us are here for the money.
  • Not quite (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DahGhostfacedFiddlah ( 470393 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @04:35PM (#8819743)
    That's a bit of a leap of logic. If the contract said "and we get your firstborn son", he could have a philosophical objection to that without being against the idea of enforcable contracts. In other words, he objects to the terms of the contract, not the contract itself.

    while click throughs are arguable, payment definitely constitutes agreement
    Just because he legally agrees doesn't mean he philosophically agrees. Just because he accepts terms he doesn't agree with - terms he can't escape when buying music online - doesn't invalidate his beliefs.
  • by An Anonymous Hero ( 443895 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @04:45PM (#8819900)
    IANAL, but was intrigued by this MacSlash post [macslash.org] the other day. Can anyone familiar with the DMCA confirm whether or not it supports the claim made here? (emphasis mine)
    The DMCA describes two categories of DRM: access control and copy control. It's illegal to distribute a product that can defeat either type of DRM.

    There is, however, a big difference between those two types of DRM as far as DMCA is concerned. It's illegal to use a product that breaks access control, but DMCA does not prohibit you from using workarounds to make copies. That distinction exists in DMCA to preserve fair use.

    Since the playfair program doesn't let you get around the access control (you still need an iTMS key) and it only allows you to make copies of files to which you have legitimately obtained access, it's legal to use it as long as you don't cross the fair use line.

  • You are incorrect (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 09, 2004 @04:55PM (#8820033)
    " After the copyrights lapse on all the music that Apple offers, then you can break the encryption and fuck with the songs all you want"

    This is incorrect. It is always illegal to break encryption to get at content, regardless of the underlying copyright.

    Welcome to the wacky world of DMCA.
  • Re:WHY WHY WHY (Score:4, Interesting)

    by adolf ( 21054 ) <flodadolf@gmail.com> on Friday April 09, 2004 @05:20PM (#8820354) Journal
    99 cents? Cheap?

    So let's download something like, oh, Manson's _Golden Age of Grotesque_. It costs us $14.95 and downloads in a few minutes (since we're already paying $50 for broadband).

    What do we get? 15 non-cohesive, DRM-encrypted, lossy-encoded AAC files that are illegal to play outside of iTunes or an iPod. But, of course, we can burn it.

    So let's do just that. It's been awhile since I've bought CD-Rs with jewel cases, but last time I did, they were about 60 cents each. Our total is now $15.55.

    We want liner notes, of course, since we want to know who's playing which songs, and so we can read any difficult-to-understand lyrics. And the pictures are pretty cool, too. I figure it'd cost another $3 in raw materials for me to print this stuff out on my inkjet, and an additional $2 to have it laminated so that it's at least waterproof like a real CD. And since Apple doesn't have anything like a PDF file for me to work from, it also costs me a few hours of my time to research, assemble, set, and print this stuff. Being conservative, let's say 5 hours at a modest $12 per hour.

    We're now up to $80.55 in just time and materials, and we don't even have a label for the fucking CD yet.

    Amazon sells this CD [amazon.com] for $14.99, with free shipping. It's even cheaper than that at the large, local music store downtown, and I can walk there from here. Comes with jewel case, glossy liner notes, a screen-printed universally-playable CD with unencrypted, unprotected, uncompressed 16/44.1 stereo audio just like the mastering engineer heard. Takes a but a few minutes to rip to MP3, AAC, WMA, FLAC, OGG, MPG, or whatever your particular fancy is. And the folks at Gracenote, freedb, or MusicBrainz will gladly fill in the id3 tags for you, negating any severe production time from the format conversion.

    Are you sure iTMS is cheaper?

  • Trivandrum (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rixstep ( 611236 ) on Friday April 09, 2004 @07:59PM (#8821700) Homepage
    It is located in Trivandrum, India

    Sounds like a nice place. Gotta visit sometime. Looks like India put a spanner in the works of the good old DMCA.

    Apple invoked the DMCA? That was the last thing people thought would happen, right? I mean, Apple are our heroes - right?
  • by That's Unpossible! ( 722232 ) * on Friday April 09, 2004 @09:46PM (#8822247)
    I like to bitch about what is wrong with the government here also, but I'm not so fed up that I think there is another country out there that is better overall than America.

    So why are you still here? Honestly?

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