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Apple Businesses

Apple Smacks Down iCommune 567

flipsidejones writes "Looks like Apple has killed iCommune. iCommune, as mentioned previously, allows users to share music libraries across a network from within iTunes. It seems the license for the iTunes plugin API does not allow for software-based plugins (only hardware: MP3 players, etc). Apple issued a 'Notice of Breach and Termination of License' to iCommune, who have since pulled the download. Something tells me that they won't be putting it back up anytime soon. Every time I forget about Mac OS X being proprietary, Apple does something to remind me." Well, in fairness, this could happen even if Mac OS X itself weren't proprietary, as iTunes still could be. For that matter, iCommune still is, too. Hm, none of that makes me feel any better ...
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Apple Smacks Down iCommune

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  • Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by The Bungi ( 221687 ) <thebungi@gmail.com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:17PM (#5095383) Homepage
    Well, in fairness, this could happen even if [...]

    I'd like to see this type of editorial byline in the next Borg article, please.

    I'm constantly amazed at how Apple is really not considered evil because they happen to sell an OS based on Unix. Duh. They're a company that sells stuff and makes money just like any other.

  • by EricWright ( 16803 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:19PM (#5095416) Journal
    Sounds like they're putting the kibosh on this project because they plan to do something like this in the near future. They may even have plans to make this a paid upgrade to the free iTunes download. Who knows?

    I actually thought they'd go after iCommune for trademark dilution...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:20PM (#5095424)
    Completely irrelevant - this is to do with the terms the iCommute guys agreed to when they used the iTunes SDK.

    You may not like the APSL for political reasons, but it's got nothing to do with this.
  • by markv242 ( 622209 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:20PM (#5095427)
    Wouldn't one of the reasons that iCommune got pulled is because Apple is probably building in Rendezvous support for iTunes into iTunes 4? They don't want to be beaten to the punch, and a third party offering "Rendezvous-like" functionality goes against Apple's plan.
  • by japhar81 ( 640163 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:21PM (#5095435)
    The next release of iTunes is slated to include P2P technology over Rendezvous(sp).

    As much as I hate to see projects killed, in this case, its not necessarily a Bad Thing(tm). In windows-land, I've got a plethora of networks to hound for one file, depending on who has it. With my mac, I'll only have one, and if the file is out there, it's on that network.

    Like I said killed OSS projects are bad, mmmkay? But, a single, united, SUPPORTED p2p network is (maybe) worth it.
  • It's the license (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mononoke ( 88668 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:22PM (#5095443) Homepage Journal
    Every time I forget about Mac OS X being proprietary, Apple does something to remind me.
    This has nothing to do with OSX being proprietary, and everything to do with violating the license for the Device Plug-in API. Sorry, but the rules were there in writing before iCommune ever started.

  • by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:24PM (#5095463) Journal
    That single, united, SUPPORTED p2p network of yours is also a single target for the RIAA/MPAA.
  • by Johnny Mnemonic ( 176043 ) <mdinsmore&gmail,com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:25PM (#5095480) Homepage Journal
    That would be nicer if you get actually get to Kazaa networks with a Mac. **grumble** At least give us the code, so we can make it ourselves. The Neo app works, but it's only one way + requires basically wardailing for hosts. I mean, I get that maybe FastTrack doesn't want to put the resources into supporting the Mac, but at least give us the opportunity to do it ourselves by opening the code. Kindof ironic, really--you would think that a someone in the biz of "free sharing" would make their code as open as possible.
  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cruciform ( 42896 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:26PM (#5095484) Homepage
    It's because they're the underdog. If there were suddenly a huge shift in power putting Apple on top of the heap, they would be the next "Evil Empire" that the Slashdot masses would want to overthrow.
  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:26PM (#5095485)
    Really. The next time you go bitching about how wonderful Apple is compared to Microsft, remember that they're guilty of *exactly* the same kind of

    - vendor intimidation
    - semi-legal, prohibitive licensing practices
    - price gouging
    - market control
    - FUD
    - product tying
    - hiding software features
    and
    - employee abuse

    that our friends in Redmond are famous for. The only difference is that Apple tried to cater to a niche market while Microsoft decided to go for the lowest common denominator and won. The only reason Apple is seen as good is because they are not Microsoft.
  • Restricting uses (Score:3, Insightful)

    by WPIDalamar ( 122110 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:26PM (#5095493) Homepage
    It's a shame apple is actually restricting uses of their software like this. Isn't one of the best signs of good-designed software when people do things with it that you never imagined?

  • Re:quit bitching (Score:5, Insightful)

    by glwtta ( 532858 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:26PM (#5095504) Homepage
    Can't I have everything for free?!

    To be fair, I don't think the poster was saying anything about prices, but rather the ability to extend the funcionality of a product.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:28PM (#5095512)
    Hey, it's the apple iTunes API license, not the apple public source license. Let's see, agree to one license to start developing a plugin for a proprietary App. Then, violate that license. Get caught... Oh yeah, don't forget to complain about an entirely different license just because it furthers your own philosophy... Complete disregard for facts...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:32PM (#5095554)
    The ULA wording certainly sounds like it's trying to prevent competition and circumvention of Apple's control over the product....though the fact that they're giving it away for free (and probably will for quite some time, now) makes this kinda moot.

    Actually, I think the main reason they did this was to prop up their "Don't steal music" line. I'm not totally familiar with iCommune, but it sounds like a great lead-in for a Napster wanna-be. If Apple didn't act, they'd wreck any hope of having a relationship with the music and movie industries (the former hurting already due to accusations), and they may need this if their current hardware/software efforts tank. All IMHO of course.
  • Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by k_187 ( 61692 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:32PM (#5095561) Journal
    So they're evil because they're a company that sells stuff? Or they're evil because they're enforcing a licence that the developers agreed to go by? Would Linus be evil if someone was violating the GPL using linux and he sued?
  • by feldsteins ( 313201 ) <scott.scottfeldstein@net> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:33PM (#5095568) Homepage
    ...ranting about how evil Apple is because they make proprietary software and how this is inherently casts them as The Man who is trying to crush our every freedom...consider that back in October they were herealded as pretty much the only company standing up for our rights [siliconvalley.com]. (I can't seem to raise the page but here [google.com] is the Google cache.)

    It occurs to me that Apple may have less-than-evil reasons for terminating the contract, not the least of which is to retain their credibility by not becoming associated with some half-assed Napster clone.

    Or, they could just be evil. I guess.
  • Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pi radians ( 170660 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:36PM (#5095593)
    Hey, you may be right but the big difference between the two is that Apple hasn't broken the law.

    Sure they are a corporation and they have the same intentions of profit like every other corporation, but their path to it, while not always favorable, has always been legal. They follow the same rules everyone else does. Thats why I think people will still try to defend Apple.
  • by mjpaci ( 33725 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:37PM (#5095600) Homepage Journal
    The Apple sharing functionality won't let you copy the songs down from the host -- just stream them. iCommune let users copy the songs as well as stream them. Remember, according to Jobs, Music Piracy is a Social Problem. I'm sure the contract violation had something to do with the copying of music. Apple doesn't want the RIAA attacking them for the transgressions of their licensed devlopers. Therefore, Apple has language in its license that somehow prohibits what iCommune was doing.

    --Mike
  • Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by alakazam ( 529128 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:37PM (#5095606)
    > because they're the underdog

    When I first read that, I agreed, but when I actually tried the thought on for size I found it didn't fit.

    If Microsoft was the "wanna-be" there's no way I'd be championing them. Most people who "prefer Microsoft" seem to do so for reasons other than "quality of product" or "innovation" or "great cool factor."

    If Microsoft was the underdog I don't think there would be all that many people rooting for them.

  • Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)

    by IRNI ( 5906 ) <irniNO@SPAMirni.net> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:39PM (#5095624) Homepage
    Or it may be that they make an OS that works and every product they make is pleasing to the eye as well as fun to use. Couldn't be that could it though? So they don't want their product to be turned into a new kazaa via a plugin to their product. It is their right.
  • Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lysurgon ( 126252 ) <joshkNO@SPAMoutlandishjosh.com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:40PM (#5095628) Homepage Journal
    I'm constantly amazed at how Apple is really not considered evil because they happen to sell an OS based on Unix. Duh. They're a company that sells stuff and makes money just like any other.

    Well, in comparison to M$, they've remained relatively benign and tend to produce products of a higher quality. Microsoft has a long history of using underhanded business tactics (e.g. punative lawsuits, abuse of monopoly power) to pursue their ends, while Apple has maintained its edge primarily through innovation.

    In reality, this is a move made by Apple to protect itself from exposure to legal liability. It has more to do with the litigious nature of the US business environment than any desire by Apple to "smack down" anything.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:43PM (#5095661)
    "Isn't this America? Can't I have everything for free?"

    • You can buy a cassette ... and you can make a copy of the songs on that cassette and LEGALLY give a copy to your friend.

      Now, if you make a copy of a CD and put it on another CD, can you LEGALLY give it to your friend?

      Now if you make a copy of that CD and put it on your computer and make it available to other people, can you LEGALLY give it to them? No.

      There's the line ... but it's not clear. What's the difference? The fact that you haven't met these people? The fact that you don't deliver something you can hold in your hand? The fact that the quality is higher? The problem is that companies are answering these questions by threatening small developers with their tremendous legal resources. These questions need clarification in the law.
  • by dirkx ( 540136 ) <dirkx@vangulik.org> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:45PM (#5095678) Homepage
    Note that iCommune essentially used no code; it was just somethin which generated a few lines of apache config which would make the Music directory shared:

    Alias /Foo/Music

    Al.ow from all ...

    Along with a small perl/python script which took your playlist and turned it into a .pls file. I.e. the type you normally click on.

    That is all. Any one who can handle vi can do it manually.

    However, combine this with Eric his mod_rendevous and then it gets interesting... http://homepage.mac.com/macdomeeu/dev/current/mod_ rendezvous/

    As that will dynamically announce your web server to the local network.

    In Safari; just go to bookmarks, rendezvous - and here we go. Sharing as it should be.

    Dw.
  • by lazylion ( 101229 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:46PM (#5095686) Homepage
    Actually, I think it is much more likely that they are trying to keep the filthy stinking RIAA [riaa.org] off their backs.
  • by daviddennis ( 10926 ) <david@amazing.com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:47PM (#5095694) Homepage
    Apple is not considered evil because they make carefully designed products that work together smoothly. They also know how to make an operating system beautiful, and that's no small consideration if you look at Windows, Linux or even BeOS.

    In short, they know how to make something geeks love, and that's why a healthy percentage of geeks are moving to Apple despite the well known proprietary disadvantages and CPU speed shortfall.

    I don't think most of us truly consider Microsoft evil because of their monopoly. I think it can all be traced to bad products like Windows 3.1, Windows95, etc. The fact that they rapidly obliverated the competition, thus all but forcing people to use their products made them even more vile, but their original sin was bad products.

    If monopoly was truly evil, Adobe would be one of the most evil companies in the world, with Photoshop having a massive, massive market share. Photoshop users love the company, and this is because Photoshop, while a near-monopoly, is also a great product genuinely beloved by its users(*).

    Monopoly is only truly evil when the monopoly products themselves are evil. But when that is so, monopoly makes the evil even worse, since it becomes increasingly difficult to ignore evil products.

    If you think Apple IS an evil company, well, it's trivial to ignore them. And that's the difference.

    Hope this helps.

    D

    (*) Some people would say Adobe was evil due to its recent misuse of the DMCA. But that's not because Adobe is a monopoly, so it's not germane to this discussion.

    This messsage was posted from my PowerBook G4/1ghz SuperDrive running MacOS X 10.2.3.
  • by Beowulfto ( 169354 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:49PM (#5095719)
    Watson wasn't killed off. It is still out there and being updated on a regular basis. I much prefer it to Sherlock. Watson has more features and launches faster in my experience. It would have been great if they incorporated it into 10.2 but they didn't. For once, Apple was following the lead of shareware developers, just not doing it as well.
  • Re:quit bitching (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <twirlipofthemists@yahoo.com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:49PM (#5095727)
    To be fair, I don't think the poster was saying anything about prices, but rather the ability to extend the funcionality of a product.

    Not your product, dude. Apple didn't create iTunes so people could illegally (right or wrong, it is definitely still illegal) exchange music files. And because Apple created it, they have the right to tell you not to do that with it. If you don't like it-- and obviously some people don't-- then you should write your own MP3 library manager.

    It bothers me that people-- not you, but others-- actually use the word "free" in this context. Are you free to do whatever you want with other people's stuff? Um... no. That's the beginning and the end of the discussion, guys.
  • Not About P2P (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pudge ( 3605 ) <slashdot.pudge@net> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:50PM (#5095732) Homepage Journal
    This is not about P2P. iCommune sucks as a way to share music illegally, because you have to stream it, you can't copy it. Sure, that doesn't make it legal, but it makes it stupid as a means to "steal" music from a friend. The only way to copy an MP3 is outside of iTunes, using some external web client, as iCommune just shares via Apache. And if you are going to do that, you don't even need iCommune, you can just tell Apache to share your MP3 directory!

    iCommune does not serve MP3s, Apache does. iCommune does not copy MP3s, only an external web client could. This isn't about stopping P2P. It is about Apple using its license to prevent someone from doing something they don't like, probably because, as only a few people mentioned, Apple is going to enable Rendezvous sharing in iTunes (in theory, someday).
  • by jdreed1024 ( 443938 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:53PM (#5095754)
    Apple issued a 'Notice of Breach and Termination of License' to iCommune, who have since pulled the download. Something tells me that they won't be putting it back up anytime soon. Every time I forget about Mac OS X being proprietary, Apple does something to remind me.

    Uh, it's not about Mac OS X being proprietary. It's not about the DMCA. It's not about the RIAA. It's not about Big Corporations squashing innovation. It's about the iCommune folks agreeing to a license when they used the API, and violating the terms of that license, and Apple revoking it. Apple is fully within their rights to do this, and I have no sympathy for iCommune at all. They agreed to the license, and they broke the rules. That's just too damn bad.

    And it's not like Apple used the DMCA or something to do this. ALl they did was send a letter saying "Hey, you agreed to this license, and now you violated it. Please stop."

    Come on people, it's a LICENSE. Just because you don't like the terms of it doesn't mean it's not real. You know that if someone violated the terms of the GPL and got in trouble for it, we'd all be celebrating. When you support the enforcement of one LICENSE and cry foul when another is enforced, you lose a lot of credibility.

    Now, if the license was ambiguous, and what icommune did wasn't specifically prohibited, and then Apple tried to claim it was, then I'd be upset. But this is open and shut.

    Frankly, I'm getting a little upset about seeing all these stories on /. designed to trick you into thinking someone is stomping on your rights. Like the one about the student who STOLE documents from a law firm. And this one about a LICENSE VIOLATION. What's next? "Man Arrested for Possession of Linux: Police arrest man for breaking into BestBuy and stealing copies of RedHat Linux"

  • by momobaxter ( 588115 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @01:58PM (#5095803) Journal
    Please give insight on how Apple steals from the open source community. If I recall correctly:

    --They gave their changes to GCC back to the community
    --They gave us Rendevous
    --They are giving their changes to KHTML back to the KDE community
    --They gave us Darwin to play with
    --And quite possibly many many more that I don't know.

    I'm feeding the troll, yes i know. But it's got to stop. Moderators, mod him down.
  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by poot_rootbeer ( 188613 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:13PM (#5095914)
    I'd like to see this type of editorial byline in the next Borg article, please.

    I wouldn't.

    Slashdot Editors should be using their privileges for editing, not editorializing.

    The only situation in which they should append anything to a submitter's own copy is when a correction or a clarification is required.

    If an editor has an opinion to share, or a comment in response to the submitter, they can damn well post a comment like the rest of us do.

  • by FreeUser ( 11483 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:14PM (#5095918)
    Like I said killed OSS projects are bad, mmmkay? But, a single, united, SUPPORTED p2p network is (maybe) worth it.

    You have just expressed a wry gladness that the project was killed, so that your convinience may be better served by having to look in only one place to find a file you are looking for, and with the next breath essentially said "I feel your pain" when you've made it rather clear you do not.

    Not only that, but your grand One P2P to Rule Them All and Bind Them will be a propriatary, commercial venture, subject to all the long term instability that implies, such as cut budgests, etc.), inaccessibility (no guarantee it will be compatible with anyone else, limiting your trading to just other mac players, a very small percentage of online file sharers), licensing restrictions (which may or may not be draconian, but either way, where's your choice gone?), possible monitoring capabilities (it is one network, after all, with likely only one approved client), and (seemingly remote at this time, but that will change on a dime if political or economic pressures come to bear) possibly DRM technology built in.

    Not to mention it will be a single point of failure. One good lawsuit from the media cartels, a single injunction, and you are out of business with no alternatives to turn to, and your own vendor prohibiting anyone else from offering you one.

    Welcome to the world of proprietary software. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Apple is a much nicer Master than Microsoft, and both their equipment and software are superior in every way, but they remain a master, and you a serf subject to their corporate whims. Furthermore, as occasional actions like this have demonstrated time and time again historically, there is absolutely no guarantee that Apple will remain the kinder Master in the future. At some point, these sorts of restrictions make it clear even to the most subserviant that no amount of convinience is worth this kind of tradeoff, and that freedom actually is something worth a modicum of effort to achieve, maintain, and insure.
  • by jaaron ( 551839 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:16PM (#5095930) Homepage
    I'm constantly amazed at how Apple is really not considered evil because they happen to sell an OS based on Unix. Duh. They're a company that sells stuff and makes money just like any other. ...

    So they're evil because they're a company that sells stuff? ...

    <rant>

    Exactly. You know I'm really getting tired of slashdot articles _and_ comments which suggest that such and such a company or organization is evil or good. Whether it's Apple or Microsoft or even the RIAA, things are not as black and white as most /.ers would like to think. Within each organization there are lots of different factions.

    Since when did the FSF become the bastion of all that is good and pure? Since when did making money become a crime? I don't think I want to label any company as purely good or evil, and particularly not any action so general as making money! Too many of us here are simply zealots, blindly spewing doctrine based on some twisted free-software/open-source/unix-rules/fsck-the-gove rnment/take-your-pick dogma. Following the popular anti-whatever rhetoric gets you karma or a nice troll. I can say that because when I was first introduced to the concepts of free software and open source, I swallowed the whole philosphy. Reading slashdot and other open source forums have allowed me to look in the mirror enough to realize how stupid it can sometimes sound.

    Don't get me wrong, I love open source. I agree with many of these principles. Heck, I contribute to couple projects and release open source code myself! But I hope I'm pragmatic enough not to simply buy the standard dogma that makes comments like "M$ sucks" or "making money is evil" rated "Insightful". Okay, <rant> off.
  • by Kaimelar ( 121741 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:17PM (#5095946) Homepage
    Hmmm . . . I smell troll on this one, but I'll bite anyway.

    Some examples to show that Apple isn't "stealing from the OSS community . . ."

    1. Darwin [apple.com]
    2. OpenDarwin.org [opendarwin.org] - "OpenDarwin.org, jointly founded in April 2002 by Internet Software Consortium, Inc. (ISC) and Apple, is an attempt to take cooperative Darwin development to the next level. Membership in the OpenDarwin project and access to its works are open to everyone. The project is also fully independent, with control over its own web site, project news, bug tracking information and CVS repository, as well as any other services that the community owners may wish to provide. Neither Apple nor ISC take any responsibility for, or exercise any editorial control over, the OpenDarwin project."
    3. Rendezvous [apple.com] - see also http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/02/08/29/2310214.s html?tid=107
    Apple's tactics regarding 3rd party developers, its choice of licences, etc. are open to debate. However, I don't think it's correct to say that all Apple is doing is "stealing". And besides, Open Source software is meant to be copied, looked at, modified, redistributed. (I'll save the discussion about "if you want people to abide by GNU, you have to be willing to abide by other licences" for someone else). Apple is doing just this, and as far as I can tell creating good products. If you don't like them, or their busincess practices, or their licences, cool, get something else. Vive la difference, non?
  • Re:quit bitching (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <twirlipofthemists@yahoo.com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:20PM (#5095962)
    I have a real problem with license agreements that come with software.

    Then don't use software that comes with license agreements. Seems like a simple solution to me.

    The same goes for hardware.

    Then, once again, don't use hardware that comes with license agreements.

    Of course, if you want to get your hands on good software, or good hardware, then I suppose you're going to have to accept the terms under which the vendors want to sell it. They created it, after all, so they get to decide how, or even if, they want to distribute it.
  • by jdreed1024 ( 443938 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:22PM (#5095991)
    Funny, when its Microsoft people start complaining about how restrictive their licenses are and squashing inovation etc etc, Apple do the same thing and its "Not their fault if you dont like their license". When Microsoft takes legal action to prevent something being done with the XBox or their software etc, people are up in arms.

    Not quite. Certainly, MS licenses are restrictive. Licenses in general are. If they weren't restrictive, there'd be no need for them. Are MS licenses too restrictive? Probably. Does this mean they can be violated? No. If there was an article about Corporation X, which made 500 copies of a Windows 2000 CD, and installed it on all of their computers, and got busted by the BSA or MSFT, I'd be on the side of MS, as much as I'd hate it. Apple licenses do tend to be less restrictive than MS licenses, especially the APSL, which, by nature, is less restrictive.

    As for the Xbox mod chip stuff, that's totally different. There was no license involved. That was the DMCA (unless I'm mistaken). That's a whole different issue. If Apple had tried to use the DMCA against iCommune, you're damn right I'd be upset, because the DMCA has no place here. But they didn't. You're comparing Apples and Oranges. (no pun intended)

    (Don't bother linking to the articles in which Apple has used the DMCA against people. I don't care. I'm only pointing out they didn't use the DMCA in THIS CASE.)

  • by biostatman ( 105993 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:23PM (#5096011)
    Now, I have very little love for the **AA, and I think that the stranglehold over the music industry that they have is wrong, as is their notion of "media consumers" as helpless fetuses plugged into the (ir) matrix, as is their desire to infringe upon our fair use rights, etc... I also believe that the music industry should try and find a way to make file trading / downloading legal and reasonably priced (I really got what I feel is good value for my money from emusic).

    However, while stealing^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h swapping songs may be seen as some sort of protest against their injustices, it is still stealing. So if some entity is in some way facilitating stealing, they have every right to shut it down. "Proprietary" seems to have little to do with it. I think the notion of "free" software is hurt tremendously if it tries to align itself with stealing. There are so many other positive virtues about free software that pitting it as a "robin hood" for people that really only care about getting free music does it a disservice.

    I just get so tired of this viewpoint; it saddens me to think that all people really care about is free beer, not free speech. I certainly appreciate all of the great software I have been able to receive at no cost (although I contribute here and there both in $$$ and bug reports when I can), but the notion of being part of a community is much more valuable to me. That is why I don't want this community to become, or at least to be seen as, a bunch of whining freeloaders.

  • Re:Ahh... well. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by pudge ( 3605 ) <slashdot.pudge@net> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:31PM (#5096081) Homepage Journal
    You appear to be under the misapprehension that news cannot contain commentary. Benjamin Franklin, essentially the father of journalism in America, regularly injected commentary into news stories in his Pennsylvania Gazette. As long as it is clear that it is commentary, it's perfectly reasonable; that news cannot contain commentary is a thoroughly modern perspective. There is a place for both objective news as well as news with commentary. Slashdot has always been, largely, a place for the latter.
  • Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)

    by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:37PM (#5096119)
    They follow the same rules everyone else does. Thats why I think people will still try to defend Apple.

    Yeah, that's true, but I remain to be convinced that if it were Apple with 95% market share they'd be any less evil than Microsoft is. If anything, they'd probably be more evil - MS pulls more than its fair share of dirty tricks but they rarely resort to using the law as their weapon as Apple do all too frequently.

    At the end of the day, Apple have the same business models and methods that Microsoft do. Look at MacOS and Windows and tell me what's really different underneath. I'm not talking about technical details or "experience", I'm talking about business models. They both charge money for the OS and give away some free stuff with it. They both use it to try and reinforce their other products.

    So sure, in the real world it wasn't Apple, but it could have been if Jobs had actually followed the advice Gates gave him when he asked for it and licensed clones. Whether Apple would have tried to destroy Netscape is debatable, but they seem happy to clamp down on people when they make competing products to themselves, or even products that alter their own in some trivial way. It's a moot point, but interesting speculation.

  • Re:The Letter (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:38PM (#5096129)
    The iTunes SDK materials are licensed only for the purpose of enabling the Licensee's hardware device identified in the agreement to interoperate with iTunes. The iTunes SDK is not licensed for use in a software program for sharing of music over a network.

    Since when is a network interface not a hardware device?

  • by tassii ( 615268 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:39PM (#5096139)
    Before everyone gets into a huff about this, you have to realize that Apple had to do this to survive. What iCommune did was basically create a iTunes-based Napster. Since RIAA has been suing every version of p2p they can track down, Apple stood to get involved in a huge lawsuit as well as being forced to change the way iTunes (and probably the iPod) works.

    Basic survival intincts. Blame RIAA, not Apple.
  • by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:51PM (#5096238)
    Just because iTunes is a proprietary MP3 player doesn't mean that it's the only possible one that'll work on the MacOSX platform.

    No, but it comes bundled for 'free' with every Mac. I think most of us would agree that Mozilla is a better browser than IE, it has tabs, popup blocking, it's more secure, it's more standards compliant, it can look boring if you want but it can also look cool and so on. The latest builds are even comparable to IE6 in speed. Internet Explorer itself has hardly moved on in the last few years, Gates has his eye on other balls.

    Nonetheless, it's practically impossible to convince a lot of people to use it. Mozillas market share remains at rock bottom. I've tried to convince friends to try it and they point blank refuse, "IE is fine for me, why would I need Mozilla?".

    And you know what? I think they might be onto something. Trying to convince somebody to change their web browser, or media player, or zip extractor is like trying to convince people to buy a different brand of oil for their car.

    I mean, to most people, things like that are part of the furniture, it works, they don't think about it. The effort required to try something else, when what you have works, is simply too great. We can't be discerning buyers in everything we do (part of the reason classical economics fails) and so the idea that somehow a company could displace iTunes by making a better media player is probably wrong.

    The only way that'd be possible is if it was SO much better than iTunes, and iTunes was SO bad that people were willing to find out about the competition and download them and try them out etc, ie not going to happen anytime soon.

    So really this company is sort of screwed. I don't agree with the "well it was in the plugin license agreement so they are the criminals here" line either - arbitrary restrictions on plugin APIs that serve seemingly no purpose just reeks of control freakery and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that was a planned feature for iTunes.

    Using license agreements to arbitrarily restrict competition like this is a classic Microsoft tactic, it's sad to see Apple do the same, but not entirely surprising.

  • by g4dget ( 579145 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:56PM (#5096266)
    It's OK to do those things when you have 3% of the market. It's not OK to do those things when you have 90% of the market.

    If you want "nice", use open source. While companies have profit motives that get in the way of quality and features, the interests of most open source developers are aligned with those of users because they are users.

  • by wirelessbuzzers ( 552513 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @02:58PM (#5096293)
    ...the next version of iTunes will be coming soon with this exact same feature...

    No. The next version of iTunes will let you stream music over Rendezvous. not pirate music over Rendezvous. There's a difference.
  • by Melantha_Bacchae ( 232402 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:06PM (#5096370)
    Apple is fighting the RIAA/MPAA, only it is not dirtying itself with P2P, copyright violations, and legal mud wrestling.

    Apple is fighting the RIAA/MPAA by democratizing the tools of music and movie production. This makes music and movie production outside the RIAA/MPAA possible for small indies, individual musicians, and small business studios.

    The big five labels especially form a sort of cartel that has been ripping off artists and customers alike, and fixing prices. By giving that cartel competition from many small sources, Apple is weakening that cartel, draining its power. Given enough time, the cartel will collapse, and a new, better, music industry will rise in its place, with an abundance of good music, good prices, and rights for the artists.

    P2P will never defeat the media sharks by itself, though it will provide promotion to indie artists. Apple is taking the high road, and solving the real problem: the RIAA/MPAA and the monopoly power their members hold over their industries.

    "Mothra Leo, the fluttering of your wings is life!
    Between the sky and the water,
    You wake up.
    A flock of moths turns him to stone.
    Sleep defeats him."
    Japanese language "Mothra Leo", "Rebirth of Mothra"
  • Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:22PM (#5096559) Homepage Journal
    Well, if Microsoft were the underdog, they might make better products. The reason I stick with Apple, for all its sins, is because it makes great products -- and the reason it does so, I'm convinced, is because it's the underdog. If the relative market shares were reversed, MacOS would probably be stuck in the System 7 days, only more bloated, and Windows might very well be fast and stable (and quite possibly Unix-based.)

    Actually, I don't even think their market positions would have to be reversed for this to happen, just closer to parity (and preferably with other competitors, e.g. Linux, at about the same level.) An example of this is IBM. Big Blue actually makes some pretty good products these days -- once they lost their absolute market dominance, they figured out how to do actual engineering again.

    If Windows were head and shoulders above the competition the way, say, Photoshop is, no one would hate Microsoft that much. It's the combination of power and crappy products that makes them uniquely hated, especially when there are better products with much lower market share (OS X, Linux, et bloody cetera.)
  • Apple vs. MS (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jmv ( 93421 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:23PM (#5096571) Homepage
    Everytime I see a story like that, I imagine what it would be like if Apple was in the monopoly position that MS currently has. I really hate what MS is doing these days, but I think Apple would do 10 time worse it it was powerful enough.
  • by Mononoke ( 88668 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:24PM (#5096580) Homepage Journal
    Why release an API if you don't plan to allow anyone to develop to it?
    They do allow development. It's a device API. Devices, ya know. Hardware. They want other mp3 players to be compatible with iTunes. Kinda shoots the conspiracy theorists down when there's proof that Apple encourages access by competing hardware (ie: competitors to the iPod).

  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Oculus Habent ( 562837 ) <oculus.habent@gm ... Nom minus author> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:26PM (#5096597) Journal
    What I have a problem with is the assumption that the companies are "evil". Who decided this, and when did it become accepted? A company making a product isn't evil, clearly. A company trying to make a profit (whether succeeding or not) isn't evil. A company producing bad products? A company breaking the law? Then was Enron evil? A monopoly?

    I don't care for Microsoft or Bill Gates' managerial style (let others come up with something and scream at them for getting details wrong) but I don't see them in dark robes sacrificing young employees to the God of Pain.

  • Unix and others (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jbolden ( 176878 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:31PM (#5096646) Homepage
    I'm constantly amazed at how Apple is really not considered evil because they happen to sell an OS based on Unix. Duh. They're a company that sells stuff and makes money just like any other.

    1) Unix is actually a big deal. /. is a Unix supporting board. Macs prior to OSX were treated as toys. Non Unix operating systems like I-OS, Z-OS, VMS... get very little coverage on support here. So yes the number 1 selling Unix vendor is going to be treated better than the number 1 selling non Unix system.

    2) One of the key principles of the FSF is that IP creates an artifical economy. That is why should things which are expensive to produce the first copy of and virtually free to produce additional copies of be sold on a fixed cost per copy basis? That is why shouldn't an alternate means of financing software be found which brings its pricing structure in line with the cost of manufacture?
    The same artifical economy does not apply to hardware. Apple being primarily a hardware vendor gets treated more like: NEC, Intel, Dell or Seagate rather than like Microsoft which is the number 1 proponent of the artifical economy.

    3) Apple publically supports BSD, GPL and is moving towards releasing a great deal of software into the public domain. Microsoft publically attacks GPL and succesfully lobbied the government not to provide any support for GPL products. Further they've included anti GPL clauses in their license agreement.

    4) Apple has worked hard to improve software which effects /.ers who are not Apple users most importantly GCC. Microsoft conversely has refused to support any open source software at all.

    5) Microsoft Palladium is a move away from file permission systems back to the capability systems of the 1970s. The capability philosophy has been an enemy of Unix for 30 years. And it has been an enenemy primarily because it shifts political power within corporations away from the IS/IT staff and towards security management. Obviously that's not going to be popular with /.ers

    I could go on and on but those are 5 good reasons.

  • by thomasdeniau ( 456204 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @03:48PM (#5096777) Homepage
    Hey, Whamb [whamb.com] can share songs using Rendezvous and they've not been brought down by Apple yet ;)
  • by jmv ( 93421 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @04:27PM (#5097069) Homepage
    My thought was: can you imagine if MS was as agressive as Apple with "defending its IP". Legal or not, Apple keeps threatening/suing everyone around, be it about iTunes, Aqua theme, transparent cases, look&feel, ...

    If they were as powerful as MS is, I just can't imagine what hell we'd be in...
  • by levik ( 52444 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @04:41PM (#5097208) Homepage
    > They follow the same rules everyone else does.

    The problem in this case, is that the rules are not the same for Microsoft, because of their unique market position (a monopoly on desktop OSes).

    Had Apple held such a monopoly, many of its practices would cause just as much, if not more, of an uporar as the ones MS got in trouble for. Think about it: they bundle all sorts of software "as part of the OS", and they have repeatedly cracked down hard on clone and part makers trying to enter their niche market.

    So, I say the actions of MS and Apple are pretty much the same. Only in the case of MS, these actions get defined as illegal, while for Apple they are merely low, dirty and unethical. But don't you think that sort of hair splitting should be left up to the lawyers?

  • Re:quit bitching (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <twirlipofthemists@yahoo.com> on Thursday January 16, 2003 @06:46PM (#5098227)
    I'm sorry, but I don't see how creating an object gives you a natural right to dictate what can be done with said object.

    Blah blah, philosophy, blah blah. It's really very simple, dude. If you say to me, "I want a copy of your whozit," and I say to you, "Okay, but I'll only give you one if you pay me ten shekels and promise never, ever to use it on a Tuesday," and then you say "Okay" and you give me the ten shekels and make the promise, you're obligated. You've entered into a contract. And if you then decide to be a jerk and break the terms of the contract-- using the whozit on a Tuesday, like I asked you not to-- then I have every right to do whatever stuff we agreed I could do when we made the original contract. Including, but not limited to, retracting your permission to use the whozit.

    This is true because you agreed to it. It's not necessary to fall back on talk of "natural rights" and "fascism." It's a simple deal, no more complex than the deals that people have been making between each other since the dawn of civilization.

    What I want to know is this: what makes you think you have the right to bust a deal?
  • Org explain (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 16, 2003 @06:51PM (#5098265)
    Lots companies make mp3 players. Some don't make them work with Macs. They say "that too much work."

    Apple say "Here, we wrote most of the code already. We share it with you, to make your mp3 player work with our cool mp3 program." This code called an API. Apple put it on website.

    Coder goes to Apple web site. Sees the code. Downloads it. Get message which says bunch of stuff, including "We are only sharing this code to make mp3 players work with Mac. Not for other stuff. You agree to only use it only to make mp3 player work with mac?" Coder clicks agree. Coder uses code to make program that is not to make mp3 player work with mac. Apple says "Hey, that not to make mp3 player work with Mac. Stop it. Keep promise you made when you got our code."
  • Re:Wow (Score:2, Insightful)

    by EelBait ( 529173 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @10:05PM (#5099407)
    I think the reason Apple is where they are and MSFT is where they are is the kinds of people attracted to work at Apple and Microsoft. People don't go to work for Apple in order to make zillions of dollars while striving to conquer the world, those people are already working at Microsoft. Similarly, no one who goes to work at Microsoft who wants to make cool products for people stays there very long. They are destroyed and driven out by the culture at Microsoft. In both cases, it's the people who make each company what it is.
  • by inkswamp ( 233692 ) on Thursday January 16, 2003 @10:21PM (#5099475)
    Remember that Apple (like most tech companies) often times has to balance the needs of their users against other concerns coming at them from other sectors. Other World Computing was recently asked by Apple to cease distribution of a piece of software that allowed third party DVD burners to operate with iMovie. Everyone cried fowl and accused Apple of behaving like Microsoft, until it was later revealed (by MacCentral, I believe) that Apple would have been liable for enormous fees for potential use of licensed MPEG technology for the use of iMovie with third party hardware (not sure how, but that was the claim.) In that case, Apple had to protect itself from uses that may have cost them dearly. Who knows if such circumstances exist here. I think Apple has done enough to show that they want to empower their users in ways that other companies have long since given up on (compare and contrast to Sony and Microsoft for starters.)

    So cut them a break and let's not all trample each other in the mad rush to scream Big Brother at them. Sometimes big companies have agreements and connections that force them into this kind of behavior from time to time.

    I don't like seeing it happen either, but there is no cause for calling them "evil" like I've seen here. That's overreaction and says more about the person saying it than it says about Apple.

  • Re:by that logic (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <twirlipofthemists@yahoo.com> on Friday January 17, 2003 @12:50AM (#5099975)
    If you don't buy the quality argument, then you must never have owned a Mac. Go to the nearest Apple store and take a look at one. Get one of the employees to open it up, take a look at the insides. Feel it, examine the way it's put together. No flimsy plastic parts. Macs are made of magnesium, polycarbonate, titanium, or aircraft-grade aluminium. They're well-designed, well-built machines.

    Feel a Mac's keyboard. Again, no cheap plastic parts. They're built to last. Take a look at an Apple-branded monitor. There is no brighter, sharper, more color-accurate LCD anywhere. Hell, even the mouse is an amazing work of engineering.

    Here's just one example. Let me tell you how my Power Mac G4 is hooked up. The mouse is plugged into the keyboard (USB). The keyboard is plugged into the monitor (also USB). The monitor is plugged into the computer (ADC). The computer is plugged into the wall (power). That's it. There are no more cables. The monitor draws power from the computer over the ADC cable, so there's no need for a separate power plug. ADC also carries USB, so there's no need to run a long USB cable down to the floor for the keyboard and/or mouse. And both the monitor and the keyboard have two USB ports on them each, so when the need arises I can plug my digital camera or whatever directly into my keyboard, no muss or fuss.

    This is some extremely well-thought-out stuff.

    Then there's the thing about the OS, and how the Cocoa API's are the most powerful and yet easy-to-use API's for any operating system anywhere. But that's a whole other discussion entirely.

    People who think Macs are really no different from PC's have never looked very closely at them.
  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MoneyT ( 548795 ) on Friday January 17, 2003 @03:25AM (#5100476) Journal
    You missed the point. YOU as a user, can do whatever the fuck you want to your system, Apple doesn't give a shit. It's when you start using their API's to distribute software of questionable legal status that they begin to care. Therefore, if you wanted to propagate the iCommune, it would merely be a matter of stripping the Apple APIs and providing instructions for building the plugin yourself.

    Of course, if iCommune became a huge hit, don't be suprised if Apple suddenly had to kill off the plugin APIs because the RIAA came after them for aiding and providing a means of illegaly sharing music.
  • by CleverNickName ( 129189 ) <wil@wil[ ]aton.net ['whe' in gap]> on Friday January 17, 2003 @03:00PM (#5103373) Homepage Journal
    This is off the main page, and it's unlikely anyone will read this, but . . .

    It's really been bothering me that this was modded as flamebait. That wasn't my intention, at all. I have an iBook, and I'm an Apple fan. I wasn't trying to troll, or cause any flamewars.

    It just bugs me when I'm misunderstood, and I wanted to set the record straight.

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