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Apple Businesses

All-New PowerBooks, Web Browser Featured at Macworld 1095

Apple CEO Steve Jobs once again introduced the new PowerBooks new and upgraded software to a throng of adoring fans at the annual Macworld Expo San Francisco, including a new web browser, new versions of the "iLife" applications (iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD), and presentation software (which Steve himself has been "beta testing" at every Macworld keynote since 2002).
The PowerBook has been extended in two directions, with screens up to 17" and down to 12". Both feature a new material for the casing, aluminum (anodized, not painted), with AirPort antennas in the screen. The AirPort range of the PowerBook now equals the iBook. It will no longer boot into Mac OS, only into Mac OS X.

The 17" model is 1440x900 resolution, 16:10 aspect ratio, G4/1GHz, SuperDrive, GeForce4 440 Go/64MB, and all the same ports, with the addition of line in and FireWire 800 (in addition to FireWire 400). It is less than 1" thin, and 6.8 lbs., and has fiber-optic lightning for the keyboard activated by ambient light sensors. It will be available next month for $3,300.

The 12" version is 4.6 lbs., and is smaller than the iBook in every dimension. It's 1024x768, G4/867, GeForce4 420 Go/32MB, and is AirPort-ready ($99 extra). It is $1,800 for a combo drive model, $2,000 for a SuperDrive model, and will be available in two weeks.

Both models sport the new AirPort Extreme (802.11g), which is 54Mbps, up from the 11Mbps of AirPort (802.11b). The base stations and clients are fully compatible with the old AirPort, handle 50 users, and support both wireless bridging (to extend the range by adding more stations) and can act as a USB printer server.

Jobs also introduced Safari, a new Mac OS X browser based on the KHTML rendering engine from KDE (and Apple will publish changes they've made to it). There's nothing especially great about it -- it's a web browser -- except that, unlike most other browsers, it is expected to be fast and work properly, as well as be fully integrated into Mac OS X. The web is a killer app, but pretty much all web browsers suck; Apple hopes to give us something that doesn't suck in Safari. It is a free download for the beta, starting today. This story was posted using Safari. W00p.

iPhoto 2 has been revamped, with iTunes integration (access to playlists, tracks, even searching) for slide shows; one-click enhance of photos; a retouch brush; archiving to CD/DVD; and more. iMovie 3 has added chapters, the "Ken Burns Effect" (panning through still images), and precise audio editing. iDVD 3 has added a ton of quite cool themes, which will look great the first few times you see them.

They are -- along with iTunes -- bundled with all new Macs beginning January 25 as "iLife". All but iDVD will be freely available online, contrary to previously published reports. The entire bundle of four apps will be available for retail purchase for $50.

For sale today at $99 is another new app, Keynote, which is the presentation software Jobs has been using for over a year for his own presentations. It includes all sorts of flashy features like textures and Quartz-powered 3D transitions, and can import and export PowerPoint, as well as export to PDF and QuickTime. It has an open file format (using XML).

Jobs also introduced Final Cut Express, a stripped-down version of Final Cut Pro, for $300, and noted other prominent third-party software recently released for Mac OS X: QuickBooks, Director, and DigiDesign Pro Tools (later this month). He noted that the number of native apps for Mac OS X jumped from 2,000 to 5,000 in 2002.

Meanwhile, the number of users of the OS went from 1.2 million to 5 million last year, and he expects the number to jump to 9 or 10 million in 2003.

Update: 01/07 19:37 GMT by Jamie (also posted with Safari): And thanks to the several Slashdot readers who pointed out a great but unannounced product: X11 (aka the X Windows System) for Mac OS X. It's in Public Beta right now. Great to see this, an Apple-supported X is greatly needed. I don't know why Jobs didn't at least mention this, it would have gotten quite the round of applause I'm sure.

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All-New PowerBooks, Web Browser Featured at Macworld

Comments Filter:
  • Woohooo!! (Score:0, Insightful)

    by gr8gatzby ( 624204 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:36PM (#5034687) Homepage
    I {HEART} Apple!!!!!!
  • Safari rocks! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Knife_Edge ( 582068 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:37PM (#5034691)
    I just wanted to mention that after using Safari for a few minutes now, it appears to be amazing. The browser is so much faster it is like a hardware upgrade. On my 500mhz iBook I have never been able to scroll smoothly through pages on any browser. Now scrolling is almost perfectly smooth! Great job with the browser Apple!
  • Disinformation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WatertonMan ( 550706 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:37PM (#5034692)
    Wow. You have to hand it to Steve. Great disinformation to make people expect the worst (paid upgrades) and then doesn't do it. Then the rumors that had been around (Chimera browser) are partially right and we get elements of Konquerer in OSX. Also, contrary to rumors, there were new machines building on where Apple is still as strong, if not stronger, than the PC world: the laptop market.

    (Remember that laptop CPUs typically don't run as fast as desktop equivalents - especially when on battery. Most OSX laptops are as fast as PC equivalents. So the CPU gap doesn't apply)

    I can't wait to download the new iApps (sorry, iLife) as well.

  • by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:38PM (#5034715)
    If it didn't register itself as Netscape 5 or something with a modicum of site compatibility site scripts would redirect it to the retard text only version of a site.
  • by SlashChick ( 544252 ) <erica@noSpam.erica.biz> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:42PM (#5034782) Homepage Journal
    I watched the Quicktime keynote with great interst, hoping that Jobs would finally introduce a 4-pound notebook. I've been waiting for one for a while, so I'm really excited that Apple finally introduced one!

    Unfortunately, however, the notebook doesn't include DVI-out support, so my monitor [sgi.com] would fall back to VGA mode if I tried to use the notebook with it. Does anyone know if Apple or a third party plans to offer a PC Card with DVI support? Margi had one, but it's only 4MB... not quite enough for this particular monitor.

    Also, one thing Apple keeps failing to address is the #1 reason I haven't switched to a Mac. Steve, where are the software trade-in incentives? I own Photoshop 6 and 7, Dreamweaver MX, and Microsoft Office XP for the PC. What on Earth is keeping Apple and/or other vendors from offering trade-in incentives? Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X? The same goes for Dreamweaver MX. The cost to move to a Mac is almost doubled by the $1500 worth of software that I already have for my PC.

    Here's hoping Apple will start to address this issue, especially since the platform is geared toward video developers and graphic designers -- two markets whose people invest heavily in expensive software.
  • Bug Button (Score:5, Insightful)

    by neuromantic ( 468525 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:48PM (#5034864)
    Use the "Bug" button! Go to the Safari page [apple.com], and submit a bug, saying you want tabs. Make it known to Apple that this is something people REALLY want.
  • My takes (Score:4, Insightful)

    by binaryDigit ( 557647 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:48PM (#5034868)
    "Year of the notebook"

    Addresses two key issues with Apple. First is slow cpu's. cpu speed isn't as big of a deal with laptop users, so the ghz gap isn't as pronounced here. Second, and most important, laptops have much higher margins than desktops. Apple already sells a higher percentage of laptops, this does nothing but help the bottom line and if they continue, the bottom line will still look good (even if market share drops).

    Most dissapointing

    No advancment on the ghz front. I just said that it doesn't matter _as_much_, but it's still dissapointing that Apple continues to lag here.

    New FireWire connector. I know that this might not be Apples fault, but yet another connector type for 800Gb FireWire, ugh. Yeah yeah, an adapters available, but couldn't IEEE figure out a way to make the two compatable?

    Most "interesting"

    Safari. How does this fit into the big picture. Does Safari really make the Mac a sweeter deal for those who were fence sitting (or firmly on the other side)? Does what Apple gets from it outweigh the development costs of it? Is this another sign that Apple is distancing themselves from Microsoft? Now with Safari, Office is the only thing left that Apple has a dependency on M$.

    Most likely to go "cube"

    The 12" PowerBook. Yes portability is good, but does it sell in enough numbers to keep it alive. Will people want a G4 bad enough to pay the extra for the 12" PB vs the iBook? Subnotes/small notes are notoriously hard to sell, but I guess it does plug a hole in the Apple notebook strategy.
  • Re:Wow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ender81b ( 520454 ) <wdinger@@@gmail...com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @03:59PM (#5034953) Homepage Journal
    Most likely they used KHTML because it *wasn't* tied in any way, shape, or form to a major corporation. At least that would be my guess. Maybe, also, they thought KHTML rendering engine was better than mozilla's, who knows. But I would place money on the reason behind choosing KHTML over Gecko being the fact that KHTML isn't backed by some major corporation whose interests might run contrary to apple's.
  • Re:Keynote vs OSS? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by iso ( 87585 ) <.slash. .at. .warpzero.info.> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:07PM (#5034998) Homepage
    Well, that sounds like a nice idea, but Keynote contains a *lot* of technologys that are very Mac OS X (or more precisely, Quartz) specific. Taking the code from OpenOffice would take a lot of work to make it "Mac-like" (Apple simply could not release an even slightly UNIX-like app), plus all of the advances feature would be entirely dependant on Quartz and therefor nearly useless to OpenOffice. And on top of all that Apple wanted to charge for Keynote, which would have brought a lot of bad publicity from the open-source community even if it were allowed by the code license.

    - j
  • by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:10PM (#5035031)
    This choice sounds utterly insane to me. With the greatest respect, khtml is nowhere near as good as Gecko in terms of it standards support or behaviour or stability especially when dealing with some of the crap sites out there in the world. Run it through a few random sites involving nested tables, CSS or frames and it quickly screws up rendering.


    What the hell were they thinking? Perhaps it's a little faster or smaller, but that sounds like a small payoff when you end up with a browser that is broken and doesn't work properly on a large number of sites. Chimera shows that Gecko can make an amazing browser on OS X so why they've jumped over is mind boggling.

  • by SilverLuz ( 592328 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:13PM (#5035048)
    While I don't know of anyone offering software trade-in, many vendors (notably Adobe, off the top of my head) do offer cross-platform upgrades. From Photoshop 6, you could upgrade to 7 PC or Mac for the same price. Which is why I'm trying to hold off purchasing new versions of my major apps until I get my new Mac.

    17" Powerbook... drool.
  • by LookSharp ( 3864 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:17PM (#5035075)
    Steve, where are the software trade-in incentives? I own Photoshop 6 and 7, Dreamweaver MX, and Microsoft Office XP for the PC. [...] Why can I not trade in my two boxed Photoshop-for-PC copies and receive Photoshop 7 for Mac OS. The cost to move to a Mac is almost doubled by the $1500 worth of software that I already have for my PC.

    Why would you ask Apple to take in software from some vendor, presumably just to throw it out, and GIVE you $1500 worth of some other company's software? Would you walk into Campell's headquaters, drop a case of opened cans of soup on their desk, and demand Progresso instead because you don't like the kind of bowls you bought to eat your soup in?

    How about either 1) Ask the software vendors in question about a trade-up deal, or 2) Buy new software for Mac in the first place?

    That's part of the TCO for owning a Mac, and one of the two big reasons (software availabity, especially games; plus hardware cost) that I finally abandoned Apple after 19 years of loyalty.

  • KHTML vs. Mozilla (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bahwi ( 43111 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:18PM (#5035082)
    I think it's great that he's chosen to go with KHTML instead of Gecko? (For reference, I use Moz, installing Phoenix right now, and I use WindowMaker, not KDE). If they went with Gecko, it would go against everything the Mozilla Project stands for.

    Mozilla is created as an alternative. It was not created to be the ONLY alternative. And assuming the world domination thing happens, IE dies off, we would have the same thing, but called Mozilla and hidden behind different 'skins' (front-end like Phoenix, Galeon, Chimera, Etc). I think those projects are great, but choice is what the entire Free Software movement is about.

    I choose to run WindowMaker. I choose to use FreeBSD. I can choose to release my projects as either GPL or BSD, or even LGPL, or any of the other licenses. I choose to use an x86 based platform.

    Why not let Apple choose KHTML? If we wake up one day and find that only Gecko is out there, IE died and Konqueror is "that other browser" (Like Opera and Mozilla are considered today, in the mainstream, although both are gaining considerable acceptance), where would we have gotten? Except for the fact it's open source, it'll be no different than IE.

    Just my 2c.

  • by fritter ( 27792 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:19PM (#5035096)
    I consider this a pretty Good Thing overall though, especially if AOL adopts Gecko. With decently large groups of people using a range of different rendering engines, designers will have no choice but to stick to open standards instead of writing to one specific browser.
  • by King Babar ( 19862 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:36PM (#5035189) Homepage
    Call me shortsighted, but I don't see the market for the 12" Powerbook. I think they'll merely be cannibalizing the sales of the existing iBook models. Consumers will be confused, product lines blurred.

    The 12" PowerBook won't sell at all. Why pay $500 more for +67MHz and a G4? Screw that. Just buy an iBook. The only people that will buy that thing are people that want the cheapest possible way to get the SuperDrive notebook.

    Well, time will tell, but I think the new 12" PowerBook will do fabulously well. In addition to the faster G4, you get 802.11g vs 802.11b, bluetooth, S-video and VGA out, a bigger hard disk that's ATA/100, more memory, faster graphics, a lighter notebook, and QuickBooks bundled. Oddly, you don't get Firewire800. In my world, the total speed bump (which I'm guessing is substantial) is worth $300, 802.11g is worth $50, the bigger faster disk is $50 (it's a PAIN to swap an iBook disk), the memory is worth $30, and the S-video/VGA out (with true dual display) is worth $100. I personally don't care about QuickBooks. So, I think this will definitely be worth it to some people even before you get to better looks and snob appeal, although the 12 inch iBook is a beautiful product in its own right (I own one :-)). The odd computers out in this case are, I think, the 14.1" iBooks.

  • Re:Mac guys (Score:3, Insightful)

    by captainbajoo ( 586447 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:38PM (#5035197)
    An 8600? That would be running what OS? Certainly not OS X, I'd wager. Probably more like OS 8, which barely supports multithreading, or even OS 7, which has even less. Even OS 9 still locks most threads (including sockets) when you drop down a menu. In other words, your comparisons are faulty: NT 4 has robust multithreading, so it wouldn't display the lockdown that you see on Mac OS 8 or earlier.

    As for your 486 running faster than an 8600, do you mean for general OS performance, or for actual comparable applications? My 486 would barely run a graphics program, which the 8600s I've used handle passably (not wonderfully, but better). So at that point, it's subjective word-against-word.

    In any case, that's all old news. The reason today's Macs excite us (or me, anyway) is that they offer very spiffy design on very solid, quick performance. You say Macs are not "faster, cheaper, more stable systems." If, for such systems, you mean Linux, I can't argue with you. I would claim, though, that the newest Macs match or best top-flight Windows systems for performance (thanks to G4/Velocity) and stability (thanks to OS X's BSD core). Then, what you get for the extra "expense" is a tastefully designed, fully integrated yet completely flexible computer and GUI. To re-iterate, over Windows, you gain even more stability, possibly some speed, and a full set of command line tools. Over Linux/other *NIXes, you get a snappy, consistent GUI and access to more applications.

    Personally, I use all three, depending on the task. I mostly just find Macs a nicer environment to work in.

  • by GiMP ( 10923 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:50PM (#5035237)
    It is genius.

    Mozilla may not have the greatest share of the market, but it may be the best browser available. This is why Apple DOES NOT want Mozilla. Sounds crazy? Not really.

    Jobs realizes that competition will create better software. It would certainly be possible for Mozilla to become so popular and 'standardized' on the Unix and MacOS operating systems that development of KHTML would slow down and eventually die. If you have a company behind KHTML like Apple while AOL is behind Mozilla, you can expect a war to brew.

    Mozilla is a great browser, KHTML is not bad.. but unless they become more popular and gain more press, Microsoft won't bother to compete.. they won't have to.

    If KHTML and Mozilla begin a new browser war, first.. new OSX users will be using KHTML, Linux/Unix geeks will be using either Mozilla or KHTML. Apple still does have a large userbase, using KHTML could really put a dent in Microsoft. KHTML's competition would make Mozilla better and more popular, even in Microsoft Windows.

    Apple may have just sparked not only a browser war, but a rejuvination of computing without Microsoft. I won't be surprised to see 30-40% of the web using non-IE browsers within a year.
  • by X_Caffeine ( 451624 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:17PM (#5035335)
    A cursory look at a few of my web pages confirmed that Safari is not a Gecko browser. It does not support negative margin-top CSS values, and does not recognize DIV {overflow:auto;}. Chimera (and all Gecko browsers) handle all of these correctly.

    The choice of this K stuff over Chimera/Gecko is puzzling, but the performance is there.
  • Re:Mac guys (Score:2, Insightful)

    by IvanXQZ ( 576819 ) <ivanxqzNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:22PM (#5035361)
    Um, I know this argument can be argued from a thousand sides, but I'll try to offer something "intelligent". Your example isn't really a fair comparison. You're talking about computers which are several years old as a parallel for what's available today. The Mac you are using is running Mac OS 9 or earlier, which even Mac fans admit is an antiquated, inefficient operating system on a par with Windows 98, which is the only OS it can be reasonably compared to. Your PC is running Windows NT, which is a modern operating system. On the other hand, NT 4.0 used to cost $$ and couldn't run many consumer applications of the time, so Microsoft sold a billion copies of 95 and 98, which were much slower and more unstable, but more compatible and more consumer-friendly. So you could as easily ask why anyone would buy a PC with 98 when they could use NT instead. So if your question is "Why use Mac OS 9 instead of Windows NT," the answer might be "no good reason," or the answer might also be "to use a well-supported, consumer-oriented operating system which runs almost every title ever written for the platform." If you want to ask why use Mac OS 9 over Windows 98, it's an easier question to answer: Windows 98, is in my experience, equivalently unstable, unreliable, slow, and bad at multitasking. Furthermore, it's harder to configure in many cases, especially when it comes to hardware matters. You just don't have hardware conflicts in the same way on a Mac. Some of the error messages are utterly incomprehensible. Some simple things (dial-up networking, for example) are needlessly cumbersome to configure. etc. The Mac experience is both smoother and more attractive, in my opinion. If you want to compare current day Macs to current day PC's, meaning, why use Mac OS X versus Windows XP, it can be argued either way. It's close. They're both modern, stable, operating systems. (Mac OS X has as much in common with OS 9 as Windows XP does with Windows 3.1). There's more software and more support for XP. But Mac OS X appeals to people for whom aesthetics matter more. The whole experience is more geared around the pleasure of using it. The hardware looks good. The software looks good. I realize these are frivolities in the eyes of many, but to me it's like "Why drive an ugly car if I really enjoy driving a nice one." "Why work in an ugly office if I can work in a nice one." For programmers and techies, Mac OS X is all Unix, all the time, so there's really no end of low-level fun that can be had in Mac OS X, and Mac users are no longer on a software island, as the wealth of existing Unix software runs on OS X. Also, the hardware is cool. Apple was the first to introduce consumer wireless networking, and were by far the price and performance leader there for at least a year. They were the first to popularize USB, despite its being available on PC motherboards for a long time. The Ethernet ports on new Macs autosense, eliminating the need for a crossover cable. They have Gigabit ethernet in their laptops. Their wireless base station, which has a modem in it, can be a standalone PPP server. Their BIOS is an entire Forth programming environment (so that you can write preloaded drivers for your cards) in which you can perform two-machine debugging via Telnet. I can't even remember half the stuff they were first to market with in their machines. Even now, how many PC laptops integrate both Wireless antennas and bluetooth? Have you ever seen the quality of an Apple LCD display, such as those built into the new iMacs? For consumers and creative people, the Mac has tools that are simply without parallel on the Windows side, such as the iApps, which are included with the OS. As far as performance goes, I think XP probably has the edge, but not by much, and there's more to computing than performance alone. It's how well the computer works with you. It's seamlessly connecting and disconnecting from wired and wireless networks without you even knowing about it. (Getting wireless cards to work on a PC can be horrible.) It's little touches, details in the OS, that demonstrate that someone was really thinking about how people use a computer, both newbies and geeks. For YEARS now, from like Mac OS 7.5 days, you've been able to make a disc image of any volume, hard drive, floppy, CD, whatever, and then "mount" it as though it were actually inserted. You know how much more pleasant this makes multidisc CD-ROM games? Or to prepare a CD for mastering? Does it really make sense to have every volume married to a letter, as opposed to having a proper name of its own? Anyway, I'm not trying to start a war either, but I'm trying to say that I think there are good reasons for choosing a Windows machine or choosing a Mac, depending on what's important to you. Neither is inherently the right computer to buy. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I think that Windows just simply doesn't make as much sense to me, and I spend more time having to figure things out. The fact that in 2003 the whole file system is filled with nonsensical 8.3 filenames seems insane to me. I find messages during software installation like "such and such component is older than the one you have installed on your system. Do you want to replace it?" to be entirely useless, since either answer could have serious consequences. But at a minimum, I'd say you owe it to yourself to look at the latest versions of Windows and Mac OS on new hardware if you're going to challenge why it would be that someone would choose one over the other. A lot of these things I mention apply to Mac OS 9 as readily as Mac OS X -- you just have to deal with the instability headaches that are now thankfully gone. But the point is that there have STILL always been advantages to using a Mac, even if it meant sacrifices in other ways. Ivan.
  • by dietlein ( 191439 ) <(dietlein) (at) (gmail.com)> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:26PM (#5035382)
    Poster: If it didn't register itself as Netscape 5 or something with a modicum of site compatibility site scripts would redirect it to the retard text only version of a site.

    Me: If everyone coded according to the standards [w3.org] instead of using browser-specific hacks, its user-agent string wouldn't matter (except for logging, etc.).
  • Re:New screen (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:44PM (#5035461)
    For the people that don't know that 8X5=16X10 which is taller than 16X9 for all that DVD watching you do on your laptop...

    All computer companies preach the lowest common denominator (in this case; people are stoopid).
  • by magnamous ( 25882 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:59PM (#5035534)
    Buy Virtual PC 6 for $200, and you can run all of those on your brand-new Mac. I agree with you that cross-upgrades would be very good, but until then, VP6 would be my recommendation. It's not a perfect solution, but if that's the number one reason that you haven't bought a Mac yet (and based on what you said, if I had to guess, the largest reason by a long shot), I'd say just fork over the $200 and be done with it. There are lots of incentives to getting a Mac that you would understand once you got one, despite the circumstances of your particular situation.
  • A few thoughts... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:23PM (#5035655)
    On Cross-Platform Upgrades:

    Many products already offer, explicitly or not, cross-platform upgrades. If you own Photoshop 6 for Windows, you can buy the 7.0 upgrade for the Mac and it will install using your serial number. I believe a number of major products will work this way, as long as they are serial-number based rather than checking for installed files-- even applications that don't advertise this as an upgrade option.

    I agree, the cost of software does make it hard to switch-- but given that you can upgrade like this, it isn't a major problem. Here's another thought-- does Microsoft offer Photoshop upgrades for people switching from Mac to PC? As everyone is saying, this simple isn't a job for Apple.

    iBook vs. PowerBook:

    The iBook is the entry-level (consumer) laptop from Apple. The PowerBook is the prestige/pro laptop. Mac users have been asking for a small pro laptop since Apple canned the 2400. I think the 12" model, with its cooler case/keyboard, SuperDrive option, G4 processor, etc. is sufficiently differentiated.

    Using VPC for Pro apps:

    To the guy who suggested this: Are you nuts? Emulation in Virtual PC does not give you the performance you will need for serious apps, especially graphic-intensive ones. VPC is a great solution for dinky apps, personal finance, and small custom apps, but not for Photoshop.
  • by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:24PM (#5035669)
    Hmm, nice rhetoric :) The issue isn't that Apple can choose KHTML, it's more a case of why.

    And assuming the world domination thing happens, IE dies off, we would have the same thing, but called Mozilla

    Uh.... the same thing being a popular web browser? :)

    I think those projects are great, but choice is what the entire Free Software movement is about.

    Actually it's about freedom. The fact that choice/duplication of effort is often a side effect of freedom isn't really what it's about, it's just a sometimes pleasant consequence of the way the free software movement works.

    Why not let Apple choose KHTML? If we wake up one day and find that only Gecko is out there, IE died and Konqueror is "that other browser" (Like Opera and Mozilla are considered today, in the mainstream, although both are gaining considerable acceptance), where would we have gotten? Except for the fact it's open source, it'll be no different than IE.

    Well, uh, yeah, except that it's open source! That's the big difference. Nobody controls Mozilla, yes Netscape/AOL have a big influence on the project but you can always fork it. You can't fork IE. The fact that it's open source IS the big deal. A monopoly of Mozilla wouldn't be bad at all - there's nothing wrong with huge market shares if it happens to be the best product and the makers of said product are not trying to prevent competition.

    I think you need to think about that one a bit harder. Choice is fine, but it's a means to an end, not an end in itself, and sometimes restricting it (ie technical standards) is a good thing.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:26PM (#5035679)
    No!

    Hold back your feelings. This is good. Yes, Gecko may be the superior engine. But diversity and choice are superiorer. Think about it: with Apple supporting KHTML and AOL supporting Gecko, there are two alternatives that enjoy major support.

    This means that Microsoft, and more importantly, the mono- or duopoly web development mindset lose some of their strangehold on the market. And ultimately this keeps the web's promise alive better than just using a more compliant engine.
  • by Aram Fingal ( 576822 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:27PM (#5035705)
    It would be better if they allowed you to choose an identification string like iCab and OmniWeb do. Some sites will refuse to serve a particular browser even when it really is compatible.
  • by Sri Lumpa ( 147664 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:27PM (#5035706) Homepage

    "And what's needed for X11 and other Unix apps (Gimp, etc)? X11."

    Given that you talk about Apple "getting the chess pieces on the board to finally ditch Microsoft" I wonder why you cite the Gimp here given that Apple probably don't gives a rat's ass about it ('cause they got Photoshop) and why you didn't cite Open Office instead, which is probably why Apple is helping X11 to run smoothly on MacOS X.

    This makes so much more sense if you think about it. Apple depends on MS for IE and Office. Now they are trying to get less dependent on IE with Safari, so what they need is a replacement for MS Office. Of course, they already have AppleWorks, but if it was able to make Apple independent from MS Office it would already have done so.

    However, Star Office and Open Office have been gathering a lot of publicity and have the advantage of being crossplatform (so a company already using Open Office on Windows or even Linux can reuse that knowledge) and having X11 makes it that much easier to have a Quartz using Aqua looking Star/Open office without waiting for more than a year (which was the ETA for OO on OS X last time I checked).
  • by edLin ( 5192 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:36PM (#5035787) Homepage
    Sell your used software on eBay.
  • by code shady ( 637051 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:38PM (#5035805) Homepage
    With the release of Safari and Keynote, apple has fired a salvo across MS's bow. These two apps help to decrease Apple's dependence on MS for the Browser (a key component) and to a lesser extent, on powerpoint. This is, imo, a goo thing. However, every mac user still has to pay a tribute to MS in the form of Office.

    OpenOffice isnt seen as a viable replacement among mac users because it uses X11, and looks decidedly un-maclike. With this new release of X11, thats fixed. Apple can now bundle open office with OS X, and they won't need to spend hundreds of man hours porting it to run under Aqua.

    The combination of OpenOffice running under apples X11 implementation, Safari, and Keynote could be just the thing that apple uses to decrease (and perhaps ultimatley do away with altogether) its dependence on MS. And that, I think, is a Good Thing.
    ---
  • Re:My takes (Score:2, Insightful)

    by anti-drew ( 72068 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @07:25PM (#5035910) Homepage
    New FireWire connector. I know that this might not be Apples fault, but yet another connector type for 800Gb FireWire, ugh. Yeah yeah, an adapters available, but couldn't IEEE figure out a way to make the two compatable?
    From what I understand (and what I heard from some of the folks who work on FireWire at Apple), the implementation of 1394b changed a lot, due to issues they found with 1394a. The biggest change is that they wanted the connections to work over long distances, and part of that involved adding 2 pins for "signal integrity". A third pin was also added for future expansion.

    Here are some more details...
    What's new about 1394b? [PDF] [1394ta.org]
    What's new about 1394b? [HTML from Google] [216.239.57.100]

    I think the distance was the biggest factor. 1394b is designed to last and be functional as a local backbone. B is supposed to be capable of 2Gbps speeds over a 100m hop without a repeater. A could only get 400Mbps through at most a 5m hop (a 20m hop if you drop to 100Mbps). To get the extra signal fidelity and really open it up for fiber media, they needed to add a few pins. Here's another article [twice.com] about that.

    Yes, I definitely agree it sucks, but sometimes you've just got to bend over and take it... standards are made by committees, so I guess it's not suprising they don't always get everything right the first time. :-)

  • by raju1kabir ( 251972 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @07:35PM (#5035926) Homepage
    I don't get tabbed browsing. I can only pay attention to one page at a time, why would I want to have multiple pages open but only be able to look at one?

    For so many reasons.

    • For instance, when I read your posting and decided to reply to it, I center-clicked the "Reply" link and then kept reading what I was doing while Slashdot's "Post Comment" page loaded. Once the tab color changed to indicate it was done loading, I clicked over to write this. Not only did I not have to wait for the reply page to appear, but when I was done, I didn't have to wait for the original page to reload before I could keep reading.
    • Any time I'm reading a page with a bunch of interesting links (maybe a news article or something), I'll center-click them all and then, once I've finished the original article (thus preserving my train of thought) I can read through 'em, one by one, and they're all pre-loaded and ready to go.
    • When I want to compare a bunch of pages (maybe pulling up 7 or 8 country profiles from the World Factbook or something) I can center-click all the links in rapid succession and then flip back and forth between them with ease.

    It saves me an incredible amount of time and enables me to manage viewing a substantially larger number of web pages. It's the only browser innovation in years that's excited me at all.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @08:07PM (#5036093)
    Yeah, like OpenOffice under X11 has any chance of remotely looking like an OS X App, whatever the windows manager :-)
    The effort of developing an Aqua interface for OpenOffice WILL have to be spent if there's any chance that any number of Mac user actually use it one day. Whether Apple will do it or the rest of the OpenSource community will remains to be seen....
  • Re:Not bad (Score:5, Insightful)

    by analog_line ( 465182 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @08:35PM (#5036336)
    The presentation software was not the "least" of Jobs' annoucnements. Keynote is a clear shot across Microsoft's bow. A direct Powerpoint competitor. That's not a small thing.
  • by hondo77 ( 324058 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @08:36PM (#5036348) Homepage

    Translation: we realised that we had no chance of building our own layout engine or javascript engine, so we had to choose between Gecko/Spidermonkey and KHTML/KJS.

    Why not use existing tools if they are good enough?

    The Mozilla technologies were better, but we could understand the KDE ones.

    Who wants to work with software you can't understand? 140,000 lines of code vs. bigger? I'd take 140,000 if I could, too.

    In particular, Mozilla is full of cross platform code that makes it harder to adapt and integrate into our OS, and it relies upon its own portable runtime and rendering layers.

    Who's fault is that? Certainly not Apple's.

    When we started this project, Chimera didn't exist.

    Who cares? Safari rocks. A big, bad commercial softwarre developer uses an open-source project and gives back to that community and there are still people who whine. It boggles the mind.

  • by puetzk ( 98046 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @09:04PM (#5036534) Homepage
    stealing? hardly. The list of contributions covers a very impressive number of optimizations and TODO's in KHTML, and the code was submitted with an excellent changelog. If this is stealing KHTML, we could sure do with more thieves like this :-)

    They are doing exactly what the LGPL (as chosen by the KHTML authors) wanted them to do... improve KHTML, and use it.
  • by alispguru ( 72689 ) <bob,bane&me,com> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @09:23PM (#5036639) Journal
    ... because it can help extend battery life, big time. Those of you with power-hungry x86 laptop CPUs may scoff at this, but my experience with my 500 MHz iBook has been that I can run it for a little over three hours with the display at full brightness, and a little over four hours with the display at its dimmest (and if you're on an airplane at night, that's actually a practical way to hack). This means the display accounts for about 25-30% of the power consumption. Anything that automatically makes the display draw an appropriate amount of power might extend my battery life half an hour or more.
  • Lack of USB 2.0 (Score:2, Insightful)

    by yet another coward ( 510 ) <yacoward@yahoo . c om> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @09:23PM (#5036644)
    I read about USB 1.1 ports on the new PowerBook, but saw nothing about USB 2.0. It seems that USB 2.0 and Firewire would be a nice combination for maximum flexibility.
  • by grammar nazi ( 197303 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @09:36PM (#5036739) Journal
    GiMP (10923),

    Please don't take offense to the following:

    I just love it when people who have no business concepts come up with crackpot reasons for why corporations do what they do. A lot of times these people make me laugh with their logic.

    First of all, Jobs doesn't want competition. He's the CEO of a multibillion dollar company. Do you honestly think he believes in a competitive, efficient market? Sure, he'll say and do whatever he can as long as MS is where it's at, but only as long as he's in second place.

    Remember, the Macintosh computer is a franchise market (read: Harley Davidson) with Apple at the helm. Companies with a monopoly over a franchise market (which Apple has) have little that will erode their marketshare. The Harley Davidson example is the textbook case. Basically, Harley Davidson has 0 competition from Honda, Yamaha, whoever in their main market. Harley's main market happens to be "Harley Davidson Motorcycles". Similarly, Apple has 0 competition from other computer makers in the Macintosh market. Everytime somebody tries to release something that emulates a Mac, they get crushed by Apple's litigation thugs. Send an email to themes.org if you disagree.

    Now if we can rule out betterment of society from CEO Jobs' goals, we should be able to assume that profit is his ultimate goal. All of his plans revolve around those little 3 step underpants gnomes plans. in this particular case, we have:
    1. Use KHTML
    2. ????
    3. Profit!!

    Now we just have to find the elusive step 2. from the 3 step plan. You, GiMP suggest that he wants a competitive browser market to create a better browser that will drive people to the Macintosh platform, thus, creating profit. Hmmm. I don't think that having the best browser will generate any profit. How much profit has MS made from IE (if we haphazardly assume it's the best browser)? None. Has dominance with IE led to profit with IIS? IIS has yet to generate profits for MS, so again, No.

    Here's my idea of why Apple chose KHTML, and although it may be just as crackpot as yours, at least it's business based crack (the expensive stuff that Wall St Tycoons snort) as opposed to opensource hippie crack. I think that Apple sees a switch campaign as a good way to increase revenues so he needs to get more people to "switch". One main reason that people don't feel comfortable with OS X is because all of the browsers suck. I use OS X and I'm justified in saying that ALL CURRENT OS X Browsers suck. I currently use a collection IE, Navigator (chimera?), Mozilla, and OmniWeb. Every one of them sucks differently and together, there's usually one that's right for each job, but I can't use one for everything. Steve Jobs knows this and says, "Holy shit! How can convince people that OS X is the best platform when people can't even browse the fscking web?" CEO Steve is smart though. He realizes that the slow web browsers in OS X (IE and Mozilla) don't suck as much as the fast web browsers (Navigator and Omniweb). He decides that Apple's going to do it's typical amazing thing and surprise everybody with a fast webbrowser for OS X that doesn't suck! Has Steve succeeded? From other comments on this page I'd say not yet, but it's a beta version and CEO Steve put a serious team of hackers behind his browser.

    Why did he choose KHTML? Probably because it was the easiest *fast* html renderer to modify and create a new web browser with. CEO Steve knows that reinventing the wheel costs too much in today's economy.

    PS. I'm very happy that Apple chose an open source browser and is giving back to the community the way that they are. I'm happy for the KDE people (all of them) for creating a browser and desktop environment that was capable for a company like Apple to use the code base.

  • Why Tabs are Bad (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Josuah ( 26407 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @09:45PM (#5036801) Homepage
    If you really think about it, however, you would realize that adding the tab feature to something like a web browser window is in fact BAD DESIGN. It may be more convenient for you, but it drastically changes what a window represents to the user.

    With tabs, closing a window can in fact remove the contents of many windows. Something that should only happen when you quit the application. Granted, adding this as a default-off feature might be okay, but I can just see all the grandmas wondering why all their different web pages went away when they only closed the front window.

    There would also need to be a cycle-tabs keystroke, in addition to the cycle-windows keystroke. (Something that does annoy me when I use tabs in Phoenix.)
  • by SoupIsGoodFood_42 ( 521389 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @09:52PM (#5036857)
    Why not let Apple choose KHTML? If we wake up one day and find that only Gecko is out there, IE died and Konqueror is "that other browser" (Like Opera and Mozilla are considered today, in the mainstream, although both are gaining considerable acceptance), where would we have gotten? Except for the fact it's open source, it'll be no different than IE.

    Your agrument is flawed in the fact that Mozilla and other browsers don't have a whole lot of non-standards features built into them.

    Who cares if a few other HTML engines die off and only Gecko based browsers are around. As long as they're standards complient, it doesn't matter. It would be completly different from the current situation with IE.

    The only reason IE is pain in terms of people writing only for IE, is because IE dosn't support the standards as well as Mozilla, and it has it own little extentions the exclude other browsers.

    A better question would be: Why re-invent the wheel? What is it that progammers say? Never write the same code twice?
    I think Apple would have been better off working with the Gecko engine and making improvments to that. After all, it is generally accepted that it's a better engine in terms of supporting the standards compared to KHTML.

  • by vought ( 160908 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @10:06PM (#5036955)
    Who else but Linux devotees goes to a Linux convention? People don't use operating systems as their job - they usually do something else.

    My point is, that by promoting the ideas and benefits of Open Source to Graphic Artists, Travelling Business People, "Creative Types" and the Casual Mac User(tm), Apple is doing more to promote open source among non-technical people than any other company out there - at least any other company my grandmother has heard of, anyway.

    Here's a screen shot:

    Apple Keynote Screen Shot [alternativelight.com]

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @10:20PM (#5037053)
    If Apple's goal is to create a web browser that is as simple as possible, then this would be viewed as an unnecessary complication.
  • by JavaJoint ( 612671 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @11:53PM (#5037610) Homepage Journal

    Know why a lighted keyboard makes sense?

    Husband/Wife, one wants sleep. One wants to surf.
    One wants the ALL of the lights off, right now, or there will
    be hell to pay.

    That's why :-)

  • by ReadParse ( 38517 ) <john@IIIfunnycow.com minus threevowels> on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @11:54PM (#5037615) Homepage
    So when I found that Apple had come out with X11 for OS X, the first thing I thought was "So what? That's already been done [sourceforge.net]. Somewhere along the way (probably while waiting for the new X11's "Optimizing" process to finish), I went over to the OroborOSX site to see if they had mentioned Apple's new X11, and that was when I remembered what's so cool about (most of) the open source community.

    They didn't bash it. They didn't knock it. They didn't even complain about it. They said something like, "How does this affect our project? We don't know. Download it. Check it out. Don't forget to back up the X11 directories beforehand, just in case." And they linked to a message forum thread on their site that had been created to talk about this new product from Apple. Even in the forum, there was very little criticism of Apple's X11 product, and everything critical they had to say was constructive.

    Even though this product could completely obliterate the need for their software, they were open to an alternative. They didn't go into FUD mode and immediately issue press releases bashing the "competition".

    One could argue that they have no reason to get upset or concerned, because they were giving their software away anyway. No money to be made or lost, right? So take your ball and go home. Not so. You can't tell me there's no pride in Open Source. These people found a void and filled it, and the void could very well be filled AGAIN by the very people who caused the void in the first place. It would be very understandable for the OroborOSX team to get a little miffed.

    Hats off to these guys for representing the best of the Open Source Community, which most often really DOES seem to be about ensuring that we all have the very best software that we can get, no matter who makes it.

    Now I'll check to see if my "optimization" is done yet, and I'll begin my little evaluation of Apple's new effort. But I will be very careful to REMEMBER who has already been here and to not forget the work that they have done. Now that they have been here, the bar has been RAISED for Apple and they will have to produce quality software. This is a great role for Open Source software, if nothing else.

    Cheers,
    RP
  • by tj8 ( 136262 ) on Wednesday January 08, 2003 @01:30AM (#5038016) Homepage
    If everyone coded according to the standards [w3.org] instead of using browser-specific hacks, its user-agent string wouldn't matter

    Well, if browsers actually implemented the standards, then standards-compliant code would work cross-browser. Alas, it does not, so browser-specific code becomes necessary. However, doing this by detecting the user-agent string is ill-advised. Object detection generally works better.
  • Good Move! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by g4dget ( 579145 ) on Wednesday January 08, 2003 @03:25AM (#5038380)
    Apple seems to be getting the message: if Apple wants to play in the UNIX market, excellent X11 support is a must. That means much better performance than XDarwin, better desktop integration, and a better installer. This is not a transitional move: X11 is here to stay. I wouldn't be surprised if X11 eventually just comes pre-installed and will just become another standard software interface on OS X alongside Carbon and Cocoa.
  • by Julian Morrison ( 5575 ) on Wednesday January 08, 2003 @07:28AM (#5038883)
    Look isn't the point.

    Look and feel and expected behavior and interoperability are the point.

    Ever tried to use an app that emulates your OS's native widgets with skins? It doesn't look right, it ignores global color and font settings, it ignores UI guidelines, it behaves differently when you drag the scrollbars, it uses its own oddball keystroke commands, you can't drag-n-drop to or from it... bleh.

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