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MacAddict Tracks Down eBay Scam Artist 912

Posted by pudge
from the ha-ha dept.
OS24Ever writes "A future high school history teacher, Jason Eric Smith, sold an 867MHz PowerBook G4 on eBay right before finals. He found out the hard way that people are out there to rip you off, and he went to great lengths to catch this guy with the help of Mac heads everywhere. A great read and agreat way for us little guys to get back at these scammers."
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MacAddict Tracks Down eBay Scam Artist

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  • here goes (Score:5, Informative)

    by mao che minh (611166) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:28PM (#4874879) Journal

    Mac Addicts to the Rescue

    or

    How I Caught a Counterfeiter with a Little Help from my Friends

    a true story by Jason Eric Smith

    Check out the Forum

    in the interest of getting this out, no fancy layout, just hand coding. maybe i'll spruce it up later. the names of the innocent have been changed, the names of the guilty though...

    I am a college student (my second time around). Specifically, I'm studying to become a high school history teacher. I am a student with a lifelong habit though, Macintosh. I got my first Mac in 1986, a used Mac Plus with 1 megabyte of RAM a massive 40 megabyte external hardrive. Since then, I've always had to keep up, first it was the SE, then the IIsi, the Powerbook 140, and from there on, more Macs than you can shake a stick at (I missed the Mac TV). I usually keep my Mac for about 6 months, and then resell it and move up. I almost always buy used, so don't get any ideas about me being rich.

    Since I went back to being a student again, I've been selling Macs more regularly, picking up good deals on used Macs locally and then reselling on eBay. I've been doing this for about two years now, its relatively easy, takes about an extra hour of my day, and usually pays the rent. In November when the new Powerbooks came out I decided I was going to buy one for myself, to keep, an early Christmas present that would come in handy for taking notes in class and finishing up a presentation I needed to do on the New Orleans school system. The day they were announced I ordered a nice new Powerbook G4 867 and found it on my doorstep only a few days later.

    It was a beautiful machine, if you've never played with one in person, you won't believe it. I played with it for a couple of days, took it to school to take notes and do research on. The more I used it, the more I loved it. But, it was just too much to be carrying around, $2300 in my backpack had a tendency to make me a little nervous. I decided maybe I should turn it around and pick up an iBook. My girlfriend and I decided we would use the extra money to donate to some charities for Christmas. So on November 19th, up on eBay it went, along with an Airport Basestation and a bunch of other knickknacks. I set a buy-it-now price on a whim for $2950.

    The next morning I checked my auction, a couple of bids placed, and so the buy-it-now option was gone. Checking my email I got a couple of questions about the computer and much to my surprise, an offer to buy it for $2900 from Steve Matthews, a dad with a lucky son in college who was going to be getting a Powerbook for his birthday. Steve wanted to pay for it COD, no problem, its actually how I usually sell things. I called him on the phone number he gave me to ask a couple of questions and make sure everything was on the up and up.

    He reiterated that he was buying it as a last minute present for his son and since it was already setup as a package, he thought it was a good deal. Not to mention the Chicago Apple stores were still out of stock. I got home from school, packed up my Powerbook and accessories, and off they went Fedex overnight to Chicago, never to be seen again.

    At 10:21AM on November 21st, a man going by the name of Paul Smith signed for my two packages and gave the driver an official cashier's check from LaSalle Bank for $3052.78 in return. The check made it back to my doorstep the next morning. I went to the bank, deposited the check and withdrew enough to go ahead and pay my rent and pick up a couple of household items. I sent an email to Steve to make sure he got everything ok and to check that nothing had been damaged in shipping. No reply. As the old saying goes, no news is good news, right?

    My girlfriend and I went away for Thanksgiving, and when we got back on Friday, I had a message from my bank. The branch manager had called to let me know she had a returned item for $3052.78 and that my account was now in the negative. Seriously in the negative. No problem I thought, I'll just call Steve and see what's up.

    So I dialed the number I had. In the back of my mind I expected a "this number has been disconnected message". Instead I got an answer, the voice sounded identical to Steve, so I asked if Steve was there.

    "Oh, Steve, yeah, that's my cousin, he's out of town for Thanksgiving you know. He'll be back Tuesday"

    "Can I leave a message for him?"

    So I left my information and asked that he give me a call. That little voice in the back of my mind let out a sigh and an uh-oh. The voices were the same right? Was I being scammed? Well, if I was, I certainly wasn't going to let the weekend go by without doing a little investigating.

    I started off with the information I had. His AOL email address, his phone number, and the address I shipped the computer to. The AOL address didn't yield anything. Doing a reverse lookup on the address (thanks to Whitepages.com) I got three names and phone numbers, none of which matched anything I had. The phone number didn't give me anything. I finally found a way to lookup the exchange on the number to see if it was a cell phone or a landline (Fone Finder). It came back as Nextel and I wanted to scream.

    There really isn't anything you can do with a cell phone number. There are no directory services. The cell phone companies won't give out any information. And that's that. I called Nextel and pleaded with them. The customer service rep I spoke with seemed more confused than anything. He kept asking me what my Nextel phone number was and why I suspected someone was fraudulently billing to my account. I calmly explained at least three times that I was not a Nextel customer, that I was just trying to get an address for another customer I suspect has defrauded me, etc, etc. I finally gave up on Chris from Nextel, I've had customer service reps who don't even speak English who were more helpful.

    I was at a dead end. I'd just sent my $2300 laptop, my Airport basestation, and a load of stuff to somebody I didn't know and all I had to show for it was a bill from Fedex for overnight shipping and a returned cashier's check. It's hard to sleep comfortably knowing some asshole has your Mac and is doing god knows what with it.

    Sunday the first of December, I sprang into action full force. I called for help. I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere with this on my own, so I figured I might be able to get some help from some bulletin boards. I posted my tale of woe and call for assistance on every Mac bulletin board I could think of. I hoped that somebody who worked for Nextel, some fellow Mac addict like myself, might be willing to bend the rules a little. I wanted this guy's address and I wanted it bad. I was already pricing flights to Chicago and putting my professors on notice that I might have to miss a little class. I may have made an error in trusting this person, but I'm not someone you want to have that happen to. I will get you. I will hunt you down, and I will bring a baseball bat with me.

    I got more replies than I could keep up with. Everyone wanted to know what they could do to help or at least offer support. Well, everyone except one guy who just wanted to let me know how incredibly stupid he thought I was and that he would never have accepted a counterfeit anything. I think a 102:1 great person to asshole ratio is pretty good. Several people living in Chicago offered their assistance, be it in gathering information or even forming a tough guy squad if necessary.

    The most important reply I got was a pointer to an online PI service that does reverse lookups on cell phones. I was already beyond broke, but I figured $85.00 more wouldn't kill me. Twelve hours and $85.00 later, I had a name, an address, and a landline phone number for this guy. The name and his AOL email were eerily close, actually with a last name like Christmas, it would be pretty weird if it didn't match up. I couldn't believe it. A Chicago resident named Melvin Christmas had just ruined my Christmas. I was expecting William Faulkner to come popping out of the pantry at any moment and laugh at me.

    I was now ready to call the police. I called the Chicago police department and filed a report. I gave the operator all of my information, including the real name and address I had managed to get. "A detective will contact you within one to two weeks, thank you." One to two weeks?!? I had this guy, I'd done all the work already, all you had to do was go pick him up. I'd even gone ahead and called Fedex and spoken to the Chicago station manager and was assured that the driver would cooperate in identifying the guy if necessary. All they had to do was pick him up. In one to two weeks he could be gone. And all the while my precious Powerbook is sitting god knows where being used by somebody completely undeserving of a Mac. I know in my heart that Mr. Christmas is really a PC guy.

    I was furious. Chicago PD weren't going to do anything about this. If they were anything like the New Orleans PD, one to two weeks was likely to turn in to never. I figured I'd call Mr. Christmas myself. Let him know I was going to give him a chance to fix this, and I thought, maybe at least scare him. Let him know he was dealing with someone who would track him down no matter what, even if I had to make a deal with the Prince of Darkness to do it. Mr. Christmas said he didn't even know what email was. Obviously a PC user.

    I kept checking the message boards. Maybe someone would have a better idea. I called the local FBI field office. Agent Jones was very understanding, but let me know that even though this crossed state lines, the field office didn't take anything involving less than $5000. "Try the Chicago PD".

    I kept everyone on the Mac boards updated as best I could. On Tuesday I got a useful reply, try the Secret Service, counterfeiting is their jurisdiction. I made my way to the under-renovation Federal Building here in New Orleans. After walking many a dark, scary hallway, found myself at the door of Agent Keith Lopola. Keith came out and heard my case. I had brought copies of all the emails between myself and Steve Matthews/Paul Smith/Mr. Christmas, a copy of the check, and the call journal I had started keeping. Agent Lopola told me the same thing the FBI did, "It falls under our jurisdiction, but we can't take the case." He wanted to let me know that he really felt for me. Thanks. I left the office determined to call and bother him and the Chicago PD everyday for the rest of my life or at least until Mr. Christmas was behind bars.

    Finals were fast approaching. It's not very easy to concentrate on school when all you can think about all day is the fact that all of your student loans for the next semester are going to cover this counterfeit check. That and some grubby criminal has your Powerbook. It's enough to drive someone to the drink.

    Tuesday night I got an email from someone who had seen my story posted on O'Grady's Powerpage, a Powerbook enthusiast site. George Dunbar had seen the story and thought it sounded eerily similar to his. I called him, we compared notes, and turns out it was the same guy. George forwarded me all of his emails. Everything was the same, word for word, it was like Mr. Christmas just copied and pasted and magically made money. George was in it worse than I was though and had completely given up. He was out $6000 and two computers. He also let me know that there were more victims. He'd talked to at least three other people who had been taken by the same guy, all of whom had just given up. I was not going to give up. That night I dreamed of Mr. Christmas and a baseball bat, some duct tape, and roofing nails.

    Wednesday morning I decided I was going to Chicago. I set up another eBay auction under my girlfriend's account, this time for same computer, different city. Three hours later, lo and behold I received an email from eBay user videopro55 (the same one) asking me if I'd like to sell the computer right now for $2500. Oh yes, I'd love to sell the computer, I'll even be there when it gets delivered to make sure it gets "setup properly".

    He emailed me a new address and phone number, the phone number again traced back to the same address for Mr. Christmas. I called the Secret Service and the Chicago PD, pleading, all they had to do was be there when Fedex dropped off the package. It was a guaranteed hit, he'd have another counterfeit cashier's check, all you'd have to do is arrest him. Like shooting fish in a barrel. "Sorry, Detective McDonaugh will be out until next Wednesday, can I take a message?" Fine, if the cops won't do it, I decided I'd just Priceline a ticket and be waiting next door when it got dropped off. So I'd know what kind of neighborhood I was looking at, I asked for help again in the Mac boards. Two Chicago residents replied, and the next morning, courtesy of Tim, I had 23 pictures of the house, the cars in the driveway (with license plate numbers) and the neighborhood. I'd like to see a Dell user do something like that at 4:30 in the morning for a complete stranger a thousand miles away. I started planning my trip. I decided I'd leave on Saturday, have the package delivered on Monday, and make it back just in time to screw up on all my finals.

    On Friday in preparation for flying up I mapped the new address from the one for Mr. Christmas to see how close it was. As I looked at the map, it hit me. The new address wasn't in Chicago. It was in a suburb, Markham. I googled for the Markham police and 5 minutes later was talking to a very enthusiastic Sargeant Knapp. I had hit the jackpot, the new drop was outside of Chicago jurisdiction and therefore outside of their inattentiveness as well. Sargeant Knapp informed me he loved this kind of thing, even had a UPS and Fedex uniform ready. He'd call Fedex and they would set it up for Tuesday. I was certain I was dreaming. After talking to two detectives in Chicago, an FBI field agent, an agent in the New Orleans field office of the Secret Service, an agent with the L.A. Secret Service and having a conference call with a large group of agents from the Chicago Secret Service, I finally was getting somewhere. And I didn't even have to stand on someone's doorstep with a baseball bat to do it.

    I spent the entire weekend on pins and needles. What if Mr. Christmas figured something out between now and Tuesday? All would be lost. I wouldn't even get the chance to confront him on my own. On Monday I spoke with Sgt. Knapp to make sure everything was ready to go. I had sent him a package with all of my documentation (he didn't have email), and I tried to explain what all the email stuff meant as best I could. He had worked everything out with Fedex and they were set for the delivery on Tuesday.

    I called my brother in Nashville and had him send the package. I had set everything up to be coming from there so that Mr. Christmas wouldn't get suspicious. I could barely sleep Monday night. All I could think about was something going wrong and my only chance at getting this guy being missed. I wanted to update everyone on the Mac boards, but I had to keep it quiet until I knew something was going to happen.

    Tuesday afternoon Sgt. Knapp called. They had tried the delivery but no one was home. I just wanted to scream. The board users kept posting how the suspense was driving them nuts. Well, it was going to give me an aneurism. A million possibilities went through my head. Maybe he had somebody working at Fedex who tipped him off, maybe I worded something in one of my email a little off. Sgt. Knapp called me back to let me know they would try the delivery again tomorrow. He also wanted to let me know that they had intercepted another package that was being sent to the same address. Looks like he'd already struck again, thankfully the lady from New York will get her computer back. He also told me that he was definitely going to keep pursuing this, and that oddly enough, the address I'd given him was also related to another fraud case, but this one much bigger (hundreds of thousands) involving a certain Chicago franchise I won't mention. So maybe I had led them to something bigger than just some asshole counterfeiting cashier's checks.

    Today I had finals all day. I'm a 4.0 honors student. I've had a 4.0 all semester. I'm not sure if I'll keep that after today. I just couldn't sleep last night. All I could think about was Mr. Christmas and the delivery. I couldn't study either. So I winged it, I'll get my grades tomorrow. I called Sgt. Knapp at 2:45. He told me he was on his way back to the house. They'd already made the delivery and arrested the guy. He had more than $10,000 in counterfeit cashier's checks waiting for deliveries.

    *I* got him.

    I'm right now waiting on Sgt. Knapp to fax me a copy of his mug shot for posterity. Then I'm going to go celebrate. Sgt. Knapp said the guy was cooperating and he was going to try to recover my laptop. I'm hopeful, but I don't expect it. I might not ever get my computer back, but at least there is one less asshole on the street. When will criminals learn? You just shouldn't mess with Mac people.

    For everyone on all the boards who offered their help and encouragement, I thank you. This would have been a lot harder without you. If you're ever in New Orleans, look me up and I'll buy you a beer. I've still got to figure out how I'm paying to college next semester, but I'll keep some beer money set aside for ya'll.

    Oh yeah, and if there are any lawyers in the Chicago area who can file a civil suit against this guy for damages (yeah I know I'm not going to collect) please contact me, misterye a t yahoo d o t com

    The sites with great users that helped out (you can sign up for the forums and read all about this as it was going on): MacRumors.com MacNN ThinkSecret O'Grady's PowerPage

    Update 12/11/02 18:58 CST: Sgt. Knapp is sending me a copy of Mr. Christmas's mug shot. I'll post it as soon as I get it.

    Update 12/11/02 21:39 CST: For those interesting in getting in contact with me, my email address is misterye at yahoo dot com, if you think you were also a victim, please call me at 504-894-1243 and I'll put you in touch with the appropriate people.

    Update 12/11/02 23:36 CST: I've gone back through and added links where appropriate. I'll try to reformat this tomorrow.

    Update 12/12/02 10:36 CST: Ok, so how's this for small world: Apparently this thing is getting posted everywhere. I just got a call from Matt of the Real World Season 9 (the New Orleans Real World). So anyway, the cast of the New Orleans Real World used to all work at 735 Nightclub. I moved down here to actually take-over their marketing right after the show ended. So I never met Matt or any of them until speaking to him today. Small, weird world.

    Update 12/12/02 12:03 CST: I've added a forum where everyone can talk about this. Here it is.

    Update 12/12/02 13:30 CST: For those of you wanting to donate to my cause, I urge you to choose a local charity. There are a lot of needy people and organizations out there this season, if you can't think of anything local, I'm a big fan of Doctor's Without Borders and Lambda International. If you really must, you can send money to my girlfriend's Paypal account, cranberry_coyote@hotmail.com. She's the one who's covering this check for me right now, so I guess she should get this. I'm still not entirely sure about this, but you've insisted. Thanks again.

    Last update Wednesday, December 12th 13:49 PM CST

    Copyright 2002 Jason Eric Smith

  • by .sig (180877) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:33PM (#4874937)
    I think the point was that they were counterfeit cashiers checks, which is why the secret service was involved. It was implied in the article, but nevere flat out said.

  • If I were ekrout... (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:38PM (#4875005)
    Here's more links on ebay scammers from my personal links (not google!)!!! These ought to be informative! +5 Informative if you ask me! Give me karma! Give me friends! I guess the magic number of characters per line is 40! I can do that because I'm ekrout! I'm starting to sound like Frank Grimes berating Homer Simpson! Wow!

    Confessions of a scam artist [msnbc.com]
    ... Confessions of a scam artist. Before his 16th birthday, Hue had stolen
    $5,000 running auction scams on Yahoo and eBay. It was child's play, ...
    www.msnbc.com/news/790212.asp - 75k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    Charges filed in alleged eBay scam [msnbc.com]
    ... Click Here. Charges filed in alleged eBay scam. LA man charged with
    26 counts of grand theft. LOS ANGELES, Dec. 4 -- A Los Angeles ...
    www.msnbc.com/news/843312.asp?0si=- - 48k - Dec. 12, 2002 - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]
    [ More results from www.msnbc.com [slashdot.org] ]

    Fool.com: Fools Team to Fight eBay Scam [News] May 2, 2001 [fool.com]
    ... This way, every time a scam artist tries to take advantage of a seller ... eBay's response
    eBay spokesman Kevin Pursglove says this particular scam pops up from ...
    www.fool.com/news/2001/ebay010502.htm - 30k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    TechTV | Source of EBay Scam Found [techtv.com]
    ... Ebay wants to protect its trademark, but says it's tough to find
    criminals like the email scam artist. It's very hard to track ...
    www.techtv.com/news/security/story/ 0,24195,3408892,00.html - 38k - Dec. 12, 2002 - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    TechTV | EBay Spam Scam [techtv.com]
    ... that's it.. Ebay wants to protect its trademark, but says it's tough
    to find criminals like the email scam artist. It's very hard ...
    www.techtv.com/news/security/story/ 0,24195,3408463,00.html - 39k - Dec. 12, 2002 - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    Possible Ebay Scam - www.ezboard.com [ezboard.com]
    ... It looks like the scam artist is targeting bigger sellers-not small fry-so if
    any of you get an email asking for information-contact ebay about it first. ...
    pub131.ezboard.com/ fbliss51092frm48.showMessage?topicID=27.topic - 14k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    Ebay scam artists [ctlinx.org]
    ... to conferm the info. Scam Artist email, Name, Ebay ID, Offence. mtracker@iland.net,
    Mark Campbell, tracker44, sells broken items as new.
    www.ctlinx.org/ebay/ - 7k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    A New eBay Bidding Scam? [auctionbytes.com]
    ... Then at the last minute, he writes, the scam-artist could withdraw his high bid ... But
    with the eBay system and other Internet bidding systems, that might not be ...
    www.auctionbytes.com/pages/abu/y200/m03/abu0009/ s05 - 19k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    Scam artist meets fraud hunter [brockmoore.com]
    www.brockmoore.com/Scams/SkylineMovies.html - 7k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

    PayPal - Internet Info for Real People [thebee.com]
    ... a correction had to be added as MSNBC incorrectly reported the scam artist could
    access credit card and bank account information. The eBay community quickly ...
    www.thebee.com/bweb/iinfo217.htm - 18k - Cached [216.239.33.100] - Similar pages [slashdot.org]

  • by ShdwStkr (454413) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:41PM (#4875044)
    No.

    From FedEx's COD Policy (here [fedex.com])

    quote

    D. Checks (including cashier's, official, certified, business and personal checks) and money orders for the C.O.D. Amount will be collected at the shipper's sole risk, including, but not limited to, all risk of nonpayment, fraud and forgery. FedEx has no liability with respect to any such instrument.

    end quote.

  • by rock_climbing_guy (630276) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:42PM (#4875048) Journal
    wish I could say the same, I have feedback score 81 with 0 negatives and i've been burned over $200. My money order went to a scammer in Ho-Ho-Kus, NJ.

    When I think about why I use eBay, I know that if I get ripped off, eBay won't do anything about it. They say they have fraud insurance, but when I filed a claim several years ago, I got no response. The reason eBay is popular, IMHO, is that it's fun. It's exciting to bid on stuff, and sell stuff, and compulsively check 'My Ebay' 20 times a day to see if anyone else bid on your stuff. Anyone else agree?

  • by bricriu (184334) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:44PM (#4875071) Homepage
    There's a Vonnegut novel, "Slapstick," that involves the plot point of the President of the US giving everyone new randomly-from-amongst-a-certain-set-of-words-and-n umbers-assigned middle names. The idea was exactly what you say -- that now everyone has a new "family". Typically loopy Vonnegut, but ultimately an interesting idea (which is also typical Vonnegut behavior).
  • Mirror (Score:5, Informative)

    by Selanit (192811) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:55PM (#4875211)
    Here is a mirror of the article [atuan.com].

    I'll leave it up for a day or two. If it's Saturday 14 Dec 2002 and you're reading this, the mirror has probably gone poof.

    I sure hope my server can take it.

    Regarding the article -- it's kind of spooky how dedicated Mac fans get. I mean, at one point he talks about the horror of not knowing who was using his mac. Most people would have been more concerned about the thousands of dollars lost due to a counterfeit check. 0_o
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 12, 2002 @05:58PM (#4875236)
    It's called lojack [lojack.com], and due to the expense of the transponder itself, you wouldn't dare use it on anything less than $10K.
  • Escrow (Score:4, Informative)

    by Malc (1751) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @06:01PM (#4875269)
    If you can't afford to lose the money, use escrow. This is exactly why the service exists. If the other party doesn't want to use escrow, move on - there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Well, this applies for the buyer as the seller has the control. By going COD, the seller gives control and thus the chance to defraud to the buyer.

    I haven't bought anything online since last February, so I'm rather disappointed to see that Escrow.ca has closed shop... they were far cheaper than Escrow.com. The latter's fees almost make it unusable for items of just a couple of hundred dollars. The other good thing with escrow.ca was I could walk 5 mins down the road and deposit cash directly in to the TD bank account and get the item shipped quickly.

    What with stupid people commonly bidding stuff up to retail prices or above, plus extortionate shipping charges and escrow fees, eBay isn't very useful to me anymore.
  • by fidget42 (538823) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @06:27PM (#4875542)
    This was best described in "The Princess Bride" with the definition of "To the pain."
  • by IIRCAFAIKIANAL (572786) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @06:33PM (#4875590) Journal
    Story is right here dude [macscripter.net]
  • by Ron Bennett (14590) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @06:35PM (#4875616) Homepage
    The check *appeared* to clear. Many people figure that once the deposited funds are made available in their account - typically one or two business days, that the money is theirs...

    The problem is that a deposited check, etc can be canceled or not honored for upwards of 10 business days. So for one to be virtually sure that a check, etc is "good", they need to wait at least 10 business days (2+ weeks)...most folks don't wait that long, but they should or they run the risk of being scammed.

    Also, even if the check itself is real (lets not even get into forged cashier checks, etc - even a well seasoned banker would have difficulty detecting some forgeries), the account it's associated with may not be and/or lacking any funds.

    Bottom line is that waiting for clearing is critical...below is my understanding/experience with these things...not the gospel...

    Common payment methods and clearing/dispute time frames:

    Wire: Same day and very safe...they're not without risk though, but problems are rare. Some places that accept wires for payment impose a two day waiting period.

    Check: 10 business days for personal/business checks. Cashier checks, etc have much shorter clearing times - BUT that assumes they're real...if unsure/concerned, then one should wait 10 business days as with personal checks.

    Money Order: At least 10 business days if forged. It's best to wait, then be sorry if unsure.

    Direct deposit (ACH): 2 business days. Can be reversed/disputed for upwards of 60 days.

    Credit Card: Varies on circumstances and issurer, but can be reversed for upwards of six months later.

    The law and procedures are very complicated and full of exceptions, etc...the bank, acting an agent, must make deposited funds available within a short period time as dictated by law/banking procedures...but the point is one should NOT assume just because their bank says funds are available that the funds are truly theirs...because they may not be :-(

    Ron Bennett
  • by saskboy (600063) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @06:40PM (#4875655) Homepage Journal
    And if you live in Canada, you can neither send nor receive merchandise, and be covered by PayPal's seller protection, because Canadapost is not recognized as a shipper by PayPal.

    www.paypalsucks.com and if you use it for anything more than playmoney on the internet, you are a bafoon. PayPal is only for buyers with credit cards, not for sellers who are dumb enough to use it.
  • by derch (184205) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @06:55PM (#4875769)
    The article's slashdotted, so I'm replying under the assumption the fake certified funds looks legit on first glance.

    First, it's a question of reasonably expectations. If the Fedex guy accepted your "Sertifyed Chek," you'd probably have a case of incompetance against the delivery man.

    On the other hand, if it looks like certified check, what do you really expect Fedex to do? To verify that it was valid, you'd have to get the funds and then call the issuer before handing over the package. That's going to add several minutes per COD package. In the case of some businesses, Fedex would have to schedule 15 - 45 minutes for delivery.

    I worked for a company that was burned by a fake cashier's check once. The check looked real. Our bank accepted the check without problems. It wasn't till several days later that the bank found out it was a fake. In our case, the receiver had called his Fedex station and asked them to hold the package at the station, and he picked it up there. The address he had given us was actually a vacant lot.

    Essentially, the carrier acts as your agent when collecting the funds. It'd be the same as if someone walked up to the counter and passed you a bad cashier's check or counterfiet money.
  • by cardozo (64194) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:02PM (#4875851)
    Ebay has fraud protection program [ebay.com]. Why didn't this guy go through them. Sure they're not going to go arrest the guy, but they'll certainly close him down on ebay. Even now he can get some of his money back from them... if it was an ebay transaction

    For that matter if Mr. Christmas had done this a lot, why didn't the seller look at the buyer's feedback? Certainly if Mr. Christmas has been ripping people off the sellers would leave negative feedback.

    Well, it turns out that videopro55 has no feedback [ebay.com]!

    Looking on ebay for the transaction turned up nothing either.

    From a more careful reading of the story, I infer that the seller took it off of ebay and sold it privately. This was a bad idea. Yeah, you have to pay ebay a commission, but that's their business, and you wouldn't have sold it without them. It's also against ebay's seller policies [ebay.com] to do this.

    So while I'm really very sympathetic about this guy getting ripped off, I think he could have been a little smarter about it.

    Lesson to all of us: Don't circumvent ebay's safeguards.

  • Re:Entrapment? (Score:5, Informative)

    by asmussen (2306) <asmussen.cox@net> on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:03PM (#4875860)
    This wouldn't have been entrapment [lectlaw.com] even had the police been the ones offering the item for sale on Ebay to begin with. All that happened was that an opportunity was created for him to use one of his counterfeit checks. Nobody even had to suggest to him that he illegally pay for the item with a counterfeit check, and even if somebody were to suggest it to him, including the police, it would not neccessarily be entrapment. (See the above link) He wasn't even approached asking to legally buy the item. He initiated the transaction himself in response to a publicly posted auction, which although admittedly posted as bait, was nothing even remotely resembling entrapment.
  • by GreyPoopon (411036) <gpoopon@@@gmail...com> on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:10PM (#4875913)
    Many people figure that once the deposited funds are made available in their account - typically one or two business days, that the money is theirs...

    Although I've never assumed this with personal checks, I've usually assumed it to be true with a cashier's check. In this case, the issuing institution has already checked the availability of funds and deducted them from the account. In fact, my own bank treats the checks as though they are guaranteed. When I deposit a personal check, the money doesn't show up in my account until it clears. When I deposit a cashier's check, it always shows up pretty much immediately.

    Obviously, we are dealing with forgeries here, so all bets are off. But I would have thought that outside of forgeries, cashier's checks should always be good. Please tell me that I'm not wrong or I won't be able to sleep at night anymore. :-)

  • Eligible for reward? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Fencepost (107992) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:22PM (#4876011) Journal
    Keep track of the case as much as possible - you may be eligible for a reward from an organization like CrimeStoppers (Canadian?) [crimestoppers.org] or (International "Parent") [c-s-i.org] or something similar. Unfortunately the sites don't seem to be particularly well set up for finding programs, but you've shown that you can be determined.

    The sergeant you worked with may be able to tell you if there's a CrimeStoppers or other program that might cover you - particularly if you're just hoping to cover what it cost you track everything down.

  • by mkweise (629582) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:26PM (#4876042)
    There's a story in today's Times of India [indiatimes.com] on a newly uncovered scheme involving this fake ebay site [ebayupdates.com].
  • COD? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:52PM (#4876230)

    I thought COD meant cash on delivery?

  • Re:Escrow (Score:5, Informative)

    by tdrury (49462) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:53PM (#4876239) Homepage

    Be careful about escrow scams. escrow.com is a valid site, but there are many, many scam sites. eBay user fenton.smith keeps a database of these and is very quick to spot and catalog them. See fenton's escrow scam page here: sos4auctions [sos4auctions.com]

    I maintain a list of scam auction red flags. See my page here [ebay.com].
  • by Ron Bennett (14590) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:57PM (#4876281) Homepage
    "What about PayPal - is THAT safe?"


    Well if you consider accepting 3rd party starter checks for payment, then maybe :-;

    Seriously, PayPal is NOT a bank and thus provides virtually no protection - there are many well documented instances of PayPal freezing funds, withdrawing funds from people's bank accounts, negative balances, issueing refunds and allowing the buyer to keep the product too, etc.

    PayPal is a very useful service, but anyone who trusts it for large amounts of money (of course that's going to be relative to one's financial worth, etc) is asking for trouble. They are not a bank and they basically play fast and loose with their policies - and good luck in contacting anyone there.

    PayPalSucks.com and PayPalWarning.com shed more light on the darker side of PayPal.

    http://www.paypalsucks.com/
    http://www.paypalwa rning.com/

    Don't get me wrong, PayPal works great and is very convenient for most folks, including myself...but still one should be aware of the risks they take on when using them to transfer money.

    Ron
  • Read the Drama (Score:2, Informative)

    by digitalgimpus (468277) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @07:59PM (#4876301) Homepage
    http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=40e4fad22 665478b027629eb71768ab5&threadid=134279&perpage=50 &pagenumber=1

    Read as it unfolds.
  • by mindstrm (20013) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @08:01PM (#4876308)
    With regards to certified cheques, anyway...
    certified cheques and money orders are widely considered as good as cash.

    The best way to deal with these things is NOT to put them in your bank account... but, if you can, to have them cashed on the spot. A postal money order can be cashed at the post office with ID.
    A certified cheque (or any cheque. for that matter) can usually be cashed at the bank it was issued from, with proper ID. Some banks will insist they only have to do this if you take it to the branch it was issued from. Some will let you do it at other branches, but will require a small wait for confirmation. This is because, by law, a cheque is simply instructions for a bank to give you money from someone's account. There is no requirement that the receiver must use a bank account.

  • by Mitreya (579078) <mitreya@gmMENCKENail.com minus author> on Thursday December 12, 2002 @08:14PM (#4876438)
    Ebay has fraud protection program [ebay.com]. Why didn't this guy go through them.

    I am definately not going to support avoiding ebay auction fees (isn't that violating the auction? what did he tell to the person who was the highest bidder??). However, to your point I have one thing to answer -- Bullshit! The ebay fraud protection is useless. It does work but with $25 deductable and UP TO $200. So escrow service is your only chance with very expensive items.

  • by misterye (260449) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @08:48PM (#4876676)
    Yes, it did fail. The FBI and the Secret Service work out of field offices. If they had more tha $5k in my field area, they would have gone after it. The Secret Service in L.A. (where another one of the victims lives) said they'd take the case after I called them, but that since the perp lived in Chicago they had to get the Chicago SS involved. The Chicago SS had a long conference call w/ me in which they grilled me about the case and then concluded that they needed at least $50k in damages before they could take it. Welcome to the nightmare of interstate criminal investigation.

    It's like another poster said, the real lesson I learned was that as long as you keep it under $5k per victim, you can do this all your life and no one is ever going to come after you. Well, no one but geeks like me anyway.

    Thanks to everyone again, this has gotten *way* bigger than I could have imagined, the Chicago Tribune just called me. I don't know whether to be proud or find a corner to hide in.
  • by Emmettfish (573105) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @09:14PM (#4876884) Homepage
    Yup. That is why for EBay I only accept USPS Money Orders, sent through the USPS, with USPS priority shipping. Oddly enough, for a government organization, they never fuck around.

    The United States Postal Service is not a governmental or federal organization, and they haven't been since July 1st, 1971. Prior to this date they were a government agency (known as The Post Office Department), but now they're an independent agency.

    Operational authority of the USPS rests with a Board of Governors and Postal Service management, instead of Congress. The US President is responsible to appoint nine of those Governors. So, there are still ties to the US Government, but they're independent.

    No one's gonna read this, but them's the facts. More information is available at http://www.usps.com/history/his3.htm [usps.com]. Enjoy.

    Emmett Plant [vorbis.com]
    Use Vorbis [vorbis.com] to listen to my music [diff-eng.net]!

  • by Whatsthiswhatsthis (466781) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @09:21PM (#4876927)
    If you would like to find out if a cashiers check is real, often you can call a number and punch in the serial number to see if it is valid. I know this is true for American Express cashiers checks.

    Also, don't be afraid to call the bank that made the cashiers check to see if it is genuine. All banks keep records of who bought what and for whom.

    The above poster is right--something may be "credited" to your account before it has been processed. According to Regulation CC, banks are required to make the funds from cashiers checks available on the next day. That's before they can be processed at the proof department to see if they are valid.

    So when you go to the bank, make sure that the check has been posted to your account--don't just ask for your account balance. Your account balance will reflect the check (counterfeit or not), but it will only be posted to your account after it has cleared.
  • by waterbug (12720) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @10:50PM (#4877425) Homepage
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=felony

    or, from a more legal-sounding website:

    http://www.lectlaw.com/def/f021.htm

    It is a common fallacy that felony==federal crime.
  • Wouldn't work. (Score:3, Informative)

    by j3ss (632376) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @10:51PM (#4877430) Homepage
    Because all they have to do is pull the CMOS battery or whatver is powering the BIOS long enough so that the BIOS resets.
  • More impressive (Score:4, Informative)

    by harlequinSmurf (620030) on Thursday December 12, 2002 @11:42PM (#4877663)
    I still think that the story of the guy who tracked down his sisters stolen iMac using timbuktu. here: Mac Thief Caught Thanks To Applescript & Timbuktu [slashdot] [slashdot.org] and here: Turning Macs on Thievery [wired.com] [wired.com]

Disclaimer: "These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be yours too." -- Dave Haynie

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