Apple Cuts Off Under-18 Darwin Developer 815
Crispyking writes "Finlay Dobbie has been a leading contributor to the Darwin project, most notably
helping track down the infamous PPP-hang bug. He's been nominated to become a Darwin contributor (which comes with limited check-in privileges) but when going through the process, Apple found out he's under 18 years old, and not only refused to let him be a contributor to this 'open source' project, but canceled his
Apple Developer Connection membership (which gives him download access to the source code) on the grounds that because he's under 18, he can't be legally bound to the small-print agreement." Update: 03/26 00:26 GMT by P : Finlay wrote in email that he wasn't getting the Darwin source through his ADC account, but through a third party development project, which he resigned from as a result of all the red tape and the ADC account being disabled.
Unfortunatly the do have a right to do this. (Score:2, Insightful)
Eye for an eye? (Score:4, Insightful)
16 years (Score:2, Insightful)
Personally, let the kid code, obviously he's good. Get his parents to sign a guardian contract, I'm sure they're aware of his abilities, and it would make an excellent entry on a resume in the future.
The problem isn't with Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't with Apple. It's with the US legal system. I've never been a fan of Apple but don't punish them for something that isn't their fault. Instead of griping to Apple, gripe to your congressional representatives on how current laws are stifling our countries competitiveness on a global scale.
Re:Child labor too, perhaps? (Score:1, Insightful)
Soon you won't be able to build model planes because you're a minor and it's 'work.'
Typical CYA (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple is not evil, they are just covering their own arse. Yes, I do agree that kids under 18 should be allowed to contribute, but the problem is that Apple is a corp. They need some way to make sure they are protected. "Signing" a document is a good way to do that. Falsly filling out a form is not a solution, it just makes matters worse.
Legal Guardians (Score:4, Insightful)
Can't his parents co-sign or something? I can't believe Apple Legal can't come up with something. They are not showing much concern for someone remarkable who has contributed so positively.
Parents (Score:2, Insightful)
RonB
Re:So . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually you may have a point; if they use code that he's hitherto submitted and now recognise he's not bound by the license then by rights the implicit agreement with which he gave them the code may also be invalid [i.e. assignment of copyright!]
Shakespere was right... (Score:1, Insightful)
Kids (Score:2, Insightful)
So this kid has been "an avid Mac evangelist" since he was 6!? I'm getting so tired of hearing young people complain how the get no respect and then tout themselves as having 9 years of experience because they've owned a computer that long.
I'm young myself - 23 years old - but I know that I have to put my time in the industry and pay my dues. I don't have 15 years IT experience becuase I had a Commodore 64 when I was 8. I don't have 8 years UNIX experience because I plyed with MUDs in highschool.
Sure, this kid helped out, and he should be proud of what he's done. But this is business, and Apple needs to be able to protect itself legally. Hell, this kid isn't even old enough to pull the french fries out of the McDonald's grease!
The 18 thing is strange.. (Score:5, Insightful)
He could be tried for Murder as an adult, but can't program for a big company?
Are there any exceptions that are POSITIVE?
No such thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess it is good for the kid to learn now, big companies will use you up and step on you after they get what they want. Don't trust them, kid.
Re:Gotta love contract law (Score:2, Insightful)
Dear Junior, because we can't force you to play nice, we assume you'll play nasty.
Oh yeah, great message. Add in the MPAA/RIAA's "You're all thieves and liars that need to be controlled" and we've arrived at a really enlightened society where everyone you don't have a strangehold on is assumed guilty.
You know, I seem to remember a couple of strange old fashioned concepts called "trust" and "good faith", but then I'm getting on and my mind may be playing tricks on me.
Lesson 1 in freedom (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps he should come over to a free operating system?
About Apple's Policy (Score:5, Insightful)
I realize that not everything is Apple's fault, it is just as much our legal system and our general philosophy of how we treat the next generation.
In my involvement with opensource, the only times that I have ever been descriminated against my age was http://www.advogato.org/article/331.html (a total and complete mess) and by various run-ins with child labor laws (I'll get to those in a minute).
Creating policies like this hurts opensource and kids in general. Having to lie about your age to get a Yahoo email account is stupid and pointless. I know several very gifted and talented hackers, people writing the backend code for perl6, or working to make Mozilla/Netscape Composer just a little bit better who have done an incredible service to the community.
Below is a bit of a rant on child labor laws that I wrote in October of last year:
Also, and perhaps more importantly, how do the child labor laws which were created to protect kids from being chained to looms for hours making rugs or soccer balls apply today in the real world. I can't tell you how many stories I have heard (and experienced several personally) where kids have been turned away from great experiences because of these laws. Several years ago, I was set to TA at a tech camp that my school was running during the summer, only to find that I couldn't until I was 15 and only then with a work permit. About 8-10 months ago, I got a contract offer (by email) and a possible offer of full-time work from collabnet to do work for them with the Bugzilla bug-tracking system which I am a developer with. Of course, this offer was quickly dispensed with after I told them that I was 12 years old
Internships are too rare, already struggling
What can we do to make the opensource community and the Internet at large a place where kids are welcome? Everyone talks about making the Internet _safe_ for kids, but don't we really have to do even more than that?
Re:So . . (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, Apple: Way to shoot yourselves in the foot. You think this brilliant young hacker is going to forget about this? If it were I, I'd work twice as hard now... at stomping Apple into the ground for a competitor.
Read Deeper... (Score:2, Insightful)
All this paints Apple in a "we are dinosaurs" light. It certainly doesn't seem to me that they really "get" Open Source, rather they seem to view it as a marketing scheme or a way to get cheap code debugging.
From http://darwinfo.org/:
"Most importantly, the source to most (but not all) of Darwin is available."
Buh? How does partial source qualify as Open Source? I guess it's only "Mostly Open Source".
Re:Gotta love contract law (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The problem isn't with Apple (Score:2, Insightful)
"current laws are stifling our countries competitiveness on a global scale"
Where are other countries crushing our industries with the child labor we need to be using? This is the same logic that says we should have child labor for the dumb kids - that way, with only the smart ones in school (like other countries), we can finally compete on those global school kid rating events.
This story isn't newsworthy. The kid probably agreed he was of legal age (the "I Accept" option) before even getting involved with the project. Apple found out and removed him to limit the potential damage to their company.
On our competitiveness, what industry do we need child labor to break? Textiles? Give me a break. We have enough employment worries as it is, without opening up that demographic. Talk about market saturation.
Oh, and did you support NAFTA? Because you shouldn't, since you must want us, as a nation, to be sealed off from the world to be more competitive. Just like China! Brilliant idea.
Re:So . . (Score:2, Insightful)
if a minor presents himself as being at or over the age of 18 at the time of the signing of the contract, he can be held accountable for the details described within the contract and may not be able to disaffirm the contract.
this holds true in a few states anyways. not sure about the entire US or other countries.
Re:About Apple's Policy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Gotta love contract law (Score:3, Insightful)
Face it, contracts exist to protect BOTH signatories. If a contract protects one but not the other, it's not a very good contract for the "not the other" party to enter into.
Give Apple a Break... (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope at least that they give him a free computer or something like that. Show him some appreciation...
Re:The 18 thing is strange.. (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words, there is solid age discrimination, but it's a wavering issue. On one hand, actions such as the under 18 clause protect a minor from a contact that may place a minor into a situation that s/he did not fully understand. However, there are a lot of kids who are smart and are able to understand a contract, or murder for that matter.
As far as Apple is concerned, I understand their position. I don't like it, and I don't think Apple really likes it either. However, that is the status of the legal system, and no matter what good intentions all parties have, you can't let that out in the open. But I don't know what other avenues can be taken (parents co-signing, etc) so I can't suggest a venue of outcome.
It's a matter of dumb kids and smart kids. Course; there are also dumb adults and smart adults. A very tough issue, but then again, some matters are just plain as day.
Re:So . . (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, the effect on contract counterparties is even worse. But Apple would be free to take the risk and believe that the kid would not choose to void the contract on reaching majority.
Re:Right...sort of... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What about EULAs? (Score:2, Insightful)
Monsanto Roundup.
k.
Re:What about EULAs? (Score:3, Insightful)
The key is that EULAs don't grant rights. You're not asked to agree to the EULA until after you've already bought the software, so you would by default have the right to use the copy you've purchased, in the same way that buying a dead-tree copy of a book gives you the right to use that book. The EULAs restrict rights that you would normally have by virtue of buying that copy of the software. By clicking on the "I agree" button or whatever other method of coercion the software vendor chose to implement, you are (technically speaking) "agreeing" to concede certain rights.
To sum up: You have certain rights to use a copy of a work you've bought. EULAs seek to add restrictions on top of the ones imposed by copyright law. So, nullifying an EULA would indeed be a Good Thing.
Not that simple (Score:2, Insightful)
>> nice, we assume you'll play nasty.
>> Oh yeah, great message. Add in the
>> MPAA/RIAA's "You're all thieves and liars that >> need to be controlled" and we've arrived at a >> really enlightened society where everyone you
>> don't have a strangehold on is assumed guilty.
That isn't their movtivation at all and, furthermore, the analogy to the RIAA/MPAA is poor. You need to understand this: he is a minor so no contract with him is enforceable including licenses like the BSD and GPL since licenses are contracts governing use and other rights one consents to give up for the consideration of using the code. Now imagine what happens to Darwin if the young man's code "poisons the well" so to speak because of a tainted license?
They could work around this if a person of leagl age checks-in the code and takes responsibility. Any of you whiners ready to put your responsibility where your
Let's fix this: (Score:3, Insightful)
I've included what I sent below, minus all the cursing (just kidding). Everyone else here who has the time, please send Apple something similar (be polite if you really want to help Finlay). I really hate to see this happen to a seemingly helpful, bright kid.
-----------
I just read about Finlay Dobbie on slashdot.org. I then read his complete story on his personal website.
If what I read is correct and truthful, Apple has done a great disservice both to its users and itself. The fact that no alternative was given to this bright kid who had already made meaningful contributions to the Darwin project is shameful.
I guess Apple's next move will be to disallow the sell of software to those under 18, since they can't be bound by the EULAs?
By way of this feedback, I *beg* of you to forward this to someone in a position to do the following:
A) Reprimand the person responsible for cancelling Finlays account without any written notice (even after the fact).
B) Talk to the company lawyers and find out if there is a viable solution (parent co-sign, legal change of status to adult, etc.) that would allow Finlay to contribute to the project.
In his writing, Finlay seems incredibly mature about this whole ugly incident. If someone were to approach him with a solution, I'm sure he would regain his faith in your company. An apologetic letter to him about the SNAFU would also do much to redeem Apple in the public eye (I'm *sure* some Apple-hating, PC using, reporter is going to put this kid on TV when they hear the story).
I'm not Apple's biggest cheerleader, but I really enjoy having you guys around even if it's only to keep MS & the PC world on their toes. Please make right what is wrong.
Sincerely,
Not Surprising (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:About Apple's Policy (Score:2, Insightful)
I think some of the brightest and best people for the tech industry are those who are growing up in it. Hell, I'm one of those kids who was put on a blacklist at school because I understood computers to a higher degree than my school's admin. However, I don't think that negates the natural process of maturity that comes with age. Nurture that need for learning but realize who and where you are right now.
Ivan
Re:Apple is just stupid and clever at the same tim (Score:2, Insightful)
Connectiva is a Brazilian company.
Obviously American child labor and exploitation laws do not apply.
Re:He's lying about his age and abilities (Score:1, Insightful)
I know you're probably speaking in jest here, but your comment merits a response because, unfortunately, a lot of people believe those things you said. I lived four years of my life in the same situation as Finlay, and I still have some of the same experiences even now that I'm of legal age. Not with contract problems, of course, but with "the age thing."
There's a general stereotype that all kids spell poorly, have poor grammar and poor communication skills, are socially inept, spend more school time smoking weed in the bathroom than paying attention in class... The list goes on. When it comes to geekdom and the internet, the model extends to include typos, 1337-5p34k, warez hoarding, even more social ineptitude ("else why's the kid on the computer instead of out getting laid," they wonder) and network abuse.
While I'll agree that many kids deserve the stereotype (especially those outside the geek world), there are plenty who don't. Online, the smart ones learn early - as I did - that being able to present yourself well by writing coherently is the best way to get what you want. Whether you're looking for respect, answers, technical support, friends, or even a job, you're going to have much better luck if you come across as worthy conversant.
Unfortunately - and yes, I do think it's a downside - showing any degree of literacy, especially combined with talents elsewhere, gives your correspondents a certain mental image. As you can imagine, that picture isn't of a 15 year old kid wearing a Tool shirt, downloading porn on the other computer and chugging a Dew (unless you've told them this ahead of time). When you write well, and especially if you're cynical, people picture an intelligent, distinguished, professional middle-aged kind of guy. Balding a bit in the back, probably wears glasses; likes sipping Chardonnay and going to the opera, or some shit. And sometimes, that can burn.
The first few times it happened, I was flattered. For the rest of those four years, it was largely a nightmare. I was offered several jobs, and at one point I was even encouraged to relocate. They'd always react the same - "You're kidding, right?" - when it came down to the age. Unless you've been through it, it's hard to grok the frustration of being offered something incredible that you simply can't accept. Imagine someone offering you a million dollars, but only if you promise not to spend a dime of it, and you might be halfway there. Now, at 22, I'd love to have just one of those offers on the table - it felt worse back then, though; knowing I was the right person in the right place but at the wrong time; knowing opportunities like that might never come again. It wasn't fair.
It sucks being 15 and having people think you're 40. I suppose it sucked for them, too; especially the ones who offered jobs, thinking they'd found the perfect person. So it goes, but I don't regret spending my hax0r years typing out proper English instead of u's and 4's. Which reminds me, proper English will get you pretty far with the h4x0r crowd, too - they tend to look up at people who can do something they can't.
I know what Finlay's feeling: "You never asked my age, how was I supposed to know it would be a problem?" I felt it many times myself those four years. I have to say that he's doing a better job of coping with such a seemingly high-profile blow than I would have. With honey, not with vinegar, at least not to the outside; for some reason it doesn't surprise me that he's a Mac guy. Though I guess I shouldn't start throwing stereotypes around.
If you're reading, bro, here's some advice from a guy who's been there and done that. Get drunk out of your mind this weekend, let the thoughts and anger - I know there's anger - fade, then go forward and don't look back. You can't change the past but you can build a better future. It'll be better in 3 years. And with exposure like this, something good is sure to land on your plate.
Re:The 18 thing is strange.. (Score:3, Insightful)
- You are intelligent and mature enough to vote.
- You are intelligent and mature enough to buy cigarettes.
- You are intelligent and mature enough to pay State Farm insurance less money.
- You are intelligent and mature enough to operate heavy machinery at your job.
- You are ingelligent and mature enough to
... contribute to Darwin.
Of course, based on more sound research, we have concluded that consuming beer is prudent exactly 126144000 seconds after that. You can even run for President when you're exactly 1103760000 seconds old.NOTE: Your body's natural development cycle may depend on any leap years within 1103760000 seconds of your birth. Of course. You really should know that.
Re:The 18 thing is strange.. (Score:3, Insightful)
And what about the totally valid, peer-reviewed research that demonstrates that a person's brain, in particular, those parts of the brain involved in judgement, are not fully developed until one is in their low 20s?
There are valid reasons that a society cannot trust the young and require adults to be caretakers. Same applies to contracts, voting, etc. Your mind is NOT fully developed, your judgement is NOT clear. I'm sorry if you don't like the fact that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, or that your brain is not fully developed and, therefore, you need to have an adult to ultimately be responsible for you, but that is reality and if you don't like reality...then that just proves the point.
Apple IS correct here. What they should do is allow the parent of a minor to grant permission and thus take all responsibility for their kid's actions. It is not reasonable (here comes the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex again - thus weakened judgement) to expect a company with liabilities and properties worth many millions to simply let someone who cannot (rightfully) enter into a binding contractual agreements have access to their properties. The correct thing to do is ask Apple to permit PARENTS/legal guardians to take on the liability for their kid's actions.
Apple doesn't deserve a break (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem is Apple wants its cake and to eat it too. It wants to free a part of the operating system, yet remain a proprietary product. It wants to be more open with the community, yet retain Non-disclosure agreements.
Lets face it folks. Apple is a proprietary company--more proprietary than even Microsoft in my estimation. I don't know what prompted them to free Darwin (even with all them requirements upon it). Apple doesn't *think* that way. They think "this is mine, NDA, trade secret". Even the article said that Apple still hasn't grasped the principles of free software.
And don't tell me what is not possible. I don't know law and I don't think you do either. But with enough lawyers I think anything is possible.
And I think Apple has enough lawyers. Perhaps then they can be busy doing something else other than going after Aqua cloners on free systems.
Re:So . . (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The 18 thing is strange.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Time to bring the non-scientifically adept up to speed vs the legal system. The legal system of ANY country is not about reality or facts or science. For such things as driving age, age of consent, voting, etc, the legal systems all must come to a compromise vs reality when it comes to these things. First, many laws were put on the books before most of modern science properly existed, and WELL before any real developmental biology was worked out. That, plus the fact that lifespans were shorter in the past, on average, than today and you find you need to make adjustments.
If you wanted the legal system to be completely self-consistent and based on reality, then EVERY individual would have to go through a battery of biological and psychological testing to give the legal system an idea as to your level of emotional development and judgement level. Some few people would gain full legal rights at 20, others at 25, and so forth, due to natural biological and developmental variation. This is clearly not the way we can reasonably expect it to go so we need to compromise and provide for graduated rights.
In case you haven't noticed lately, since it is a FACT that teenage drivers are the most dangerous people on the streets, bar none, many states are beginning to change the laws such that even 16 year-olds are NOT allowed to drive freely and at will. They are receiving restricted driver's licenses, subject to stricter review, requiring that you gradually develop into a good driver with full driving priviledges. Expect this to spread to more and more states rather than remain restricted to a handful of vanguard states.
Many of you are looking at this backwards, as if the law is reality and reality isn't. The law has very little to do with reality. For instance, I would go so far as to say that countries in which the age of consent is so low (did someone mention 12?) are stupidly WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Not because of some moral qualms on my part, but because of developmental biological FACTS. Sex is NOT harmless emotionally nor physically. It DOES have consequences that go beyond whether or not one gets preggers. A 12-year-old is in no way, shape, or form emotionally mature. They are also strongly lacking in judgement. They, as a matter of fact, cannot make thoughtful, logical, mature, reasoned decisions because the faculties required for such are not fully developed yet.
I think we could make the laws more properly fit with biological and psychological reality by creating graduated rights, but instead of basing it on testing everyone, you go with the average rate of development for humans. Thus, 15 year olds would have a subset of rights, 20 year olds a larger collection of rights, and then 25 year olds the full set of adult rights...because by 25 MOST people have fully developed "equipment" to allow for full, clear judgement. Of course this isn't perfect, but again, the laws are more about wierd compromises rather than reality.
Great. (Score:3, Insightful)
Or is the 'community' a myth.
They should have all said "You lock him out, we all quit"
Re:The 18 thing is strange.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Effectivly the age of legal majority has gone up, whilst, due to better nutrition and medical care, the age of physically maturity has gone down. One of the areas in which this has generated a whole heap of problems is in respect of ages of consent.