Aqua Mozilla OK with Apple 314
MikeMo writes: "Turns out Apple thinks an Aqua Mozilla is OK, after all. Eric Yang had a chat with them and they made up." This is an update to this story.
With your bare hands?!?
Is this an overreaction or not? (Score:4, Insightful)
It sounds to me like Apple did say it was okay to make an Aqua-like Mozilla -- but only using the "real" Apple tools, and therefore (purely my extrapolation) for Mac OS X users only. Aqua look-and-feel through "emulation" is still strictly forbidden.
Yes?
If this is the case, then the Slashdot was not overreacting at all -- it's still a "legitimate Aqua" sues "homebrew Aqua look" issue in which all non-MacOS users are forbidden from using nice shiny sea-blue widgets, etc.
Or am I misunderstanding?
So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:5, Insightful)
Does Apple mean they insist that Mozilla use native OS X widgets if it wants to look like an Aqua application? From my (admittedly limited) understanding of the Mozilla architecture, this is impossible. Mozilla's appearance is all defined at run-time, and everything including its own buttons, menus, scroll bars, is a Mozilla custom component, not part of the OS standard UI toolkit.
Am I wrong? Please correct me. But it seems like the only thing you could do would be to write your own browser using native widgets, and embed the Gecko rendering engine, ala Galeon. Mozilla's not going to give you a "pure Aqua experience" unless you rewrite it from scratch.
/.ed, it seems (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:2, Insightful)
Why not just replace the emulation with native calls. I mean how about..
#ifdef __MACOSX_WITH_AQUA__
..code..
#else
..code..
#endif
..in the widget library. Of course those smart mozilla developers can probably come up with something more elegant but certainly something like this shouldn't be more than minor obstacle..
And they do have a point about pure Aqua experience which is more than just pretty looks. It would certainly be confusing to have an application that looks like it conforms to the normal aqua guidelines and behaviour but then acts differently.
Also, it would be quite a burden for mozilla developers to emulate everything instead of just letting the system ui-library take care of all the nasty details.
This would just make mozilla even better on macintosh and if for some reason there isn't enough interest in making a native aqua implementation you can always use the boring standard look..
So where's the problem. Apple is just protecting their brand. Just like you can't call any old cola a coca cola..
Re:And Apple never "borrowed" from MS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:4, Insightful)
Mozilla needed a custom widget set to comply with CSS as well. It seemed natural to use it for the interface too, eliminating porting headaches.
Re:And Apple never "borrowed" from MS? (Score:4, Insightful)
1981 - 1983 (Lisa and Mac Development teams)
* General User Interface
* Mouse
* Menus
* Controls
* Windows
* Desktop Metaphor
[1989 - Win31 first usable system but didn't get it working mediocre until Win95 - still not as consistent or good]
* Files -
* multi-forked filing system [WinNT 1993 - still not used]
* long file names (with spaces & special symbols) [Win95, not as versatile]
* automatic typed icons (type + creator) document centric filing mechanism [Win95, not nearly as complete or seamless]
* Design and Programming [Win3 - 1989, not as versatile]
1984
* Desk Accessories (copied in IBM-compatible world as "TSR")
* multitasking: Desk Accessories [Win3 - 1989, not as versatile]
* Sensible System folder organization [Win95 - not as clean, consistent or versatile]
* Dynamic, user-accessible system extension (fonts, INITs, control panels, DA's) [TBD]
* Drag-and-drop Application installation [TBD]
* fast and easy access to international characters [TBD]
* User-extensible font manager [TBD]
* Plug-and-play printing; page setup & print dialogs [TBD]
* Built-in clock with backup battery; reliable file dating. [about 1987]
* Sound
* Built-in speaker, 4 voice sound synthesizer, full digitized sound samples [SoundBlaster about 1987, but it wasn't common until about 1989]
* Speech
* Speech synthesis (Macintalk). [SoundBlaster about 1987, but not as widely used and not a system function]
* Floppy 3.5" floppy (400K) [about 1988]
* with automounting and auto-eject. [TBD]
* Also added a floppy disk cache [TBD]
* hot-swappable peripherals
* keyboard, mouse [1997 with USB, TBD popularized]
* MacPaint, MacWrite, MacDraw [Win3 - 1989, not as versatile]
* First person mainstream networked game (first person dungeon like game -- MazeWar, initially created at Xerox) [Wolfenstien or DOOM - 1992? far better graphics]
* Mac128K was an Ergonomic All in one Machine, semi-portable [1983 Osborn, sorta, some Compaq's in about 1993]
* Use of icons to label ports (all ports keyed to prevent mistakes) [1994?]
1985
* LaserWriter printer with Postscript (Apple also helped Adobe get off the ground as a company) [Win31 - 1991 was when Windows first supported Postscript, before then support was spotty]
* Networking (plug & play, integrated -- AppleTalk/LocalTalk) [1993 / TBD, WinForWorkgroups offered some networking as "option", not as easy or as integrated. Win95 improves it -- still not as easy, or ubiquitous as MacOS in 1985]
* Direct manipulation Resource Editor [TBD]
* Desktop Publishing (actually came from Mac Application called ReadySetGo, then Adobe Pagemaker, also Scoop, Xpress and a few others at about the same time, because of what the Macs WYSIWG capabilities) [Win31 - 1991 was when it first started working well on PC's]
* OOP / OOD (Object Oriented Design and Programming)
* Object Pascal (later borrowed by Borland) [1993]
* MacApp (first mainstream Object Oriented Framework, MS copied poorly with MFC) [1992 - MFC popularized]
* Movable Palettes
* Lifelike Interface [1994 - Bob]
* (forget the name, but there was a Finder Replacement that had an actual picture of a desktop, with a little assistant. Microsoft copied this about 8 years later as "Bob").
1986
* Plug-and play peripherals (SCSI) - ability to handle volumes/partitions to 2GB [1995+]
* Hypercard (simple object programming -- precursor to Visual Basic) [1990]
* Hypercard (simple hypertext linking -- precursor to the Web) [1993]
* First personal computer with 4MB linear memory space (Mac Plus) [1993 WinNT]
* Kanjitalk
* More versatile "Wavetable" sound manager [1989 SoundBlaster popularized]
* Memory Modules (SIMMS) instead of installing RAM chips [1988 - 1990]
* Dial in modem service. Apple create AppleLink communication service -- GE used the software to create AOL.
* Scroll speed throttle for uniform user experience regardless of processor speed. [TBD]
* ADB (Apple Desktop Bus): extensible, auto-config low-speed peripheral bus (precursor to USB) - [1997 with USB, TBD popularized]
1987
* Plug-and-play bus expansion (NuBus) [1995 PCI + PnP, 1997-98 popularized]
* Multifinder application multitasking [1991 Win31, 1993 WinNT]
* Ability to assign labels to files [TBD]
* Multiple monitor support: single large desktop [1998, TBD Popularized]
* Color QuickDraw, 256 color 640x480 graphics (same year as VGA with 16-color 640x480 or 256-color 320x200) [1991]
* Accelerated video cards [1991?]
* Full Page Display [1993]
* Dual Page Displays [1991]
* GWorlds (off screen graphics images used) [1992 - 1997, WinG didn't get working until Win95, and really working until DirectDraw]
* Built in masking, antialiasing and Dithering of images (actually masking and dithering was earlier). [TBD -- Done by programmers]
* Industrial Design: Snap Open Case (no screws) [TBD]
1988
* SCSI plug-and-play CD-ROM [1995 for PnP, not as easy or good]
* Ethertalk
* Superdrive, can read and write Mac, DOS, OS/2 files [TBD]
1989
* photo-realistic images (32-bit QuickDraw)
* 32 Bit Clean OS and 32-bit clean computers (software patches fixed older machines, no BIOS replacements) [1993 WinNT -- 2000 with Win2000]
* A/ROSE real-time operating system for smart cards [TBD]
* Multiprocessing (using cards like YARC and Radius Rocket) [1993 WinNT -- 2000 with Win2000 to popularize]
* Mac Portable, first mainstream portable with an integrated trackball and active matrix screen
1990
* Sound input [TBD]
* Built-in Ethernet (Quadra) [TBD, usually a low-cost extra]
* Publish and Subscribe and early work on Object Embedding (later to be borrowed and become OLE) [1992 - 1995]
* Aural feedback for controls (Sonic Finder) [Win95]
* Ability to assign custom icons to Finder objects [1989 through hacking, TBD]
1991
* Powerbook 100: first laptop with keyboard in back, trackball in front. [1993 - 1994]
* TrueType outline font technology (licensed to Microsoft)
* Balloon help (with contextual feedback) [1991 - Still not as versatile]
* Built in File sharing [1992 WfW, Win95 popularized]
* Robust aliases (unlike Windows' fallible "shortcuts" that came years later) [TBD]
* QuickTime [1992, Authoring not Available until 1995]
* Multimedia -- Apple created the term. They had been the first to integrate Sound, Speech, Text and Graphics (multiple medias), then expanded to include video (and later 3D) and pushed with CD-ROMs [1993 - 1995 until things worked right]
* Virtual Memory [1991 Win31 - 1993 WinNT, 1995 to popularize]
* Appletalk Remote Access [Extra]
* AppleScript: application and system scripting [1981 poorly, 1995 VBfApps, TBD]
* Integrated eMail [Win98]
* Integrated Keychain (Security) [TBD]
* Encryption and Security [1993 WinNT -- 2000 with Win2000 to popularize]
* Network Browser [Win95]
* Trash you have to empty (item in trash survive power down) [Win95]
1992
* Powerbook Duo: first dockable (e.g. "port replicator") but much more elegant [TBD]
* Global text input support (WorldScript) [TBD]
* ColorSync color matching [1999]
* Built-in CD-ROM's [?? 1994]
* Video Input - AV models
* Integrated DSP [1989 NeXT, 1996 with MMX]
* Industrial Design: Slide out Drawer [Some servers, rare]
1993
* Next generation speech synthesis
* Speech recognition (Speakable Items) [1996 - Win95 add-on, 1997 as powerful add-on, TBD to be popularized]
* Integrated telephony (Geoport) [Win98]
* First PC with built-in TV
* PDA [WinCE -- 1997 - 1998, but not as nice]
* Handwriting Recognition (Newton) [TBD]
* Gesture Recognition [TBD]
1994
* Powerbook 520: first widely-available laptop with trackpad.
* Power Macintosh: PowerPC RISC chip [1993 WinNT, most RISCs killed, TBD to popularize maybe 2001 - 2004 with Merced/McKinley]
* 68K emulation for seamless backward compatiblity. [TBD -- Alpha tries but not mainstream or as reliable]
* Graphing Calculator: real-time equation visualization, 2D and 3D.[TBD]
* MacOS on Unix (MAE)
* "Most Recent" folders
* Hierarchical menus
* Windowshade (collapsable windows)
* AppleGuide (help system with coachmarks) [TBD]
* PC Exchange (cross platform file compatibility) [TBD]
* Macintosh Easy Open (can open PC files)
* DOS/Windows compatibility cards and emulation software
* Threads [1993 NT, TBD to popularize]
* TCP/IP support
* Powerbook file synchronization [TBD]
* Continuous speech recognition and input (Cantonese dictation)
* Bento - Object Oriented Document model [TBD]
* IEEE-1394 (FireWire) [1998 as option (Sony), TBD popularized]
1995
* QuickTime VR, Conferencing
* Open Transport Networking (streams)
* QuickDraw 3D [1994 OpenGL, 1998 to popularize with Direct3D]
* Plug & Play PCI bus (PCI Only -- no ISA or older bus) [1995 Win95 was PnP support, general PCI earlier, PnP didn't work fully until 1997]
1996
* OpenDoc (Fully document centric interface model) [TBD]
* Integrated Browser (CyberDog) [Win98]
* Web as a data-type (CyberDog) [Win98]
1997
* Popup folders [TBD]
* Spring loaded folders [TBD]
* reorganized system folder [Still not as clean]
1998
* Sherlock full-text indexing and internet searching [TBD]
* Titlebar icons to represent the folder itself for dragging etc. [TBD]
* Appearance manager (Themes) [Limited in Win95, TBD]
* Audio Themes (Sonic Finder finally ships in 8.5) [Limited in Win95, TBD]
* Tear off Menu (Application Menu. Also Apple and NeXT merged, NeXT created them) [TBD]
* Resizable Menus [TBD]
* Customizable scroll bar behavior [TBD]
* Integrated System Wide antialiasing [1996 Win95 OSR2?, Win98]
* iMac - clear case, return of all-in-one, simplified design, ALL plug & play I/O, floppyless design [TBD]
* USB (Universal Serial Bus): this is a copy of the Apple Desktop Bus (ADB). Apple was also the first to make it ubiquitous and standard.[Added in 1996, support in Win98, TBD popularized]
1999
* Industrial Design: Handles + Door [TBD]
* AirPort -- Wireless networking made easy [TBD]
Re:Might make Aqua better... (Score:5, Insightful)
But the designers at BMW aren't going to sue me if I paint the Virgin Mary on the hood!
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:2, Insightful)
Seeing as Mozilla is supposed to be an application platform, the same argument could be made.
True, but I don't believe Mozilla will ever have even a fraction of the support Java does. Java is a very well-thought-out lanaguage with some interesting concepts (the first widespread VM and really widespread GC), a really good API, a huge install base, and lots of resources on it available. As much as apples and oranges can be compared (a programming language vs. a web browser, although they both are more than that), Java comes out far ahead.
And such a book on Mozilla is coming from O'Reilley (can't recall the title at the moment).
Interesting. News to me.
these are long-known problems (Score:3, Insightful)
None of the custom-widget defenders could find any particular examples of required CSS behaviors that couldn't be done with native widgets. In fact the people who were claiming there were problems of this type seemed very ignorant of the graphics layer capabilities in MacOS (9 and X) and in Windows as well.
The fact is Mozilla went down the wrong path, a bunch of us tried to get them to reconsider, and they just wouldn't budge.
So surprise, everything we predicted has now come to pass.
Sigh
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:4, Insightful)
Crossplatform HTML sucked in Navigator because the widgets for Win32 acted just different enough from Mac and from X Window that it got ugly trying to make it look and act consistent.
Mozilla fixes that problem, and kudos to them for it.
(Not to mention being able to write apps for hte Mozilla platform. That's a nice benefit as well)
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:4, Insightful)
And when it comes to Mozilla, you have lots of choices for UIs--the Mozilla engine embeds easily in other UIs, as Galeon, Skipstone, and QtZilla have shown.
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes, as a programmer I want to give my programs the correct "look and feel" for the system. But it takes Microsoft forever to get the latest widgets from IE or Outlook or Word into the damned OS. They write their own "custom" widgets within their applications, and if you want the same look and feel you must too. The result is as you say: a whole lot of custom widgets which don't upgrade when the OS does. But it's not the programmer's fault, it's Microsoft's. They add widgets in the application groups and they take 2 years to filter into the common controls, where developers can use them. If you're using MFC it takes yet longer before the APIs are properly wrapped in a new MFC version.
So although I agree with what you say - and I agree that the Mozilla design is terrible - I think it's unfair to blame developer hubris. Developers want to conform, and they are unable to.
Re:Might make Aqua better... (Score:3, Insightful)
Because Apple doesn't have OEMs making Macintosh clones. Apple makes the hardware and the software. If Apple still allowed clones (which, depending on your opinion is either a good thing or bad thing) then maybe this arguement would be valid.
Apple is very much concerned with selling a "tight" system. Apple sells a branded product; as a result, look and feel is more important to them then, say, Dell (who sells a commodity product where a consistent interface takes a back seat to power and/or price).
Now I'm not sure if its such a good idea for Apple to lean on developers who produce products with a non-standard (or just plain ugly) interface. Its really up to the developer to make his/her/their product look like a Mac app, especially since Mac users are more intolerant of un-Mac like products.
On the other hand, maybe Apple should've slapped Microsoft down for Word 6 for Macintosh. :)
That suit was more generic: it was more like "the concept of a GUI". Protecting Aqua is about protecting a brand or an image. Its the same thing that prevents one car manufacturer (Daewoo, for example) from rampantly poaching another's body design (say, Porsche's Boxster). What Apple wants to avoid is
Re:Aqua, and Mac Widgets (Score:3, Insightful)
What exactly do you call Gnome and GTK? I have it in use by morons, idiots, and people that seem to have an I.Q. of less than 40 (sales people, Marketing people, Human Resources people) It is very useable, very effective, and hamper's no one here. The transition period was 2 days for all employees. Everyone understood that the foot was start menu and weren't crying in their hands because the foot scared them.
The transition to staroffice was as smooth also. (openoffice would have been smoother but we cant use beta office apps) Email is as easy except for people bitching that they cant just click on the attachment to run it. "I respond with GOOD! I finally stopped you people from doing that!" then they shut up, copy to desktop and then open it.
If the linux desktop is a failure, can you please show me why so I can tell all the employees here to stop using it.
Coherent desktop.. Gnome is a 96.95% copy of the windows desktop. Windows from version to version change their desktop to add confusion (why does network neighborhood change it's behaivoir from NT4.0 to 2000? is that coherency? how about the 40 other basic items that no longer work the same or in the same place?)
Over the past 3 months, the Unix/linux desktop has surpassed windows. and every test I try with non-linux users (windows-heads) is sucessful and they like it. (espically ximian which acts more mac like than windows like)
I can see your point on Widgets... but forcing mozilla and openoffice to use GTK will piss off the KDE people.. which will piss off the blackbox people... etc...
my biggest gripe is dummies that make the copy function something other than CTRL-C and paste something other than CTRL-V. if you cant make hotkeys standard then leave them out, if you cant use standard widgets then dont program....
If you cant use the standard OS then
The important thing is that Linux/Unix is like NT4.0 regular users are too dumb to manage it , but they can use it well if the managing personell configure everything and choose software that isnt confusing. (Using davewidget 4.3 with new spinning icons)
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, platforms have interface guidelines - read them. Too often programs get the look right but the FEEL is very wrong. An example would be buttons. On a mac, buttons that are clicked but while the mouse is still down the mouse is moved away, should not act as if they were clicked. This is so a user can change their mind. Too many programs act on a mouse down when they should be acting on this mouse down, if still over button on mouse up then act combination.
Linux users, and to some extent Windows users, are fairly used to programs that don't comply to the guidelines. Because of this, they often don't understand mac users griping about a program not being consistent. If you've never had consistency, you don't miss it. Mac users, on the other hand, are used to well written, compliant programs.
Consistency is one of the things that the mac sold on in a time of custom MS-DOS applications. The mac introduced the idea of a universal interface toolbox that all applications should use. Developers embraced it because it made writing their apps easier by not re-inventing the wheel. Because of this, and a strict set of User Interface Guidelines, the mac is the most consistent computing environment. Consistency is important! Because of the macs consistency, a user can typically use a new program without so much as picking up its manual. Inconsistency is why Linux is having so much trouble being user friendly to new users.
I haven't seen this yet... (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple's aim with Aqua is brand identiy. They want Aqua instantly associated with Apple. They don't want there to be any question about it.
This follows the same logic they used when they sued three companies over iMac knockoffs. They wanted the "look and feel" of an iMac to be instantly recognizeable and associated ONLY with Apple. Even if you thought the iMac was butt-ugly, it stood out from run-of-the-mill beige PCs. It cried out that the Mac was alive and well, and assured that people would remember the design.
Granted, there have been a number of iMac inspired computers, but Apple has choosen its battles well.
The same goes for Aqua. I've seen a number of "Aqua inspired" designs, but the ones where an author obviously went in and copied and pasted Apple's UI elements into a theme file have all been brought to a quick end.
Re:So what exactly does Apple want? (Score:2, Insightful)
Or more importantly, how many times have you hit CTRL-C/CTRL-V in Windows only to *NOT* have the application cut and paste.
Standards are a good thing. You're right on the money.