Apple Sued For Turning Workers Into Slaves 1153
SwiftyNifty writes "Apple employees are putting together a class action lawsuit for not receiving overtime pay. A Lawsuit filed Monday in California seeks class action status alleging that Apple denied technical staffers required overtime pay and meal compensation in violation of state law.
Filed in the US District Court for Southern California, the complaint claims that many Apple employees are routinely subjected to working conditions resembling indentured servitude, or 'modern day slaves,' for lack of better words."
who pays a cultist? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:who pays a cultist? (Score:5, Funny)
What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Funny)
He'd say, you don't need to get paid. I agree. Steve Jobs agrees. Where's the problem?
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Informative)
My girlfriend used to work for AppleCare (in the call center). Here's what she said about it (from IM, so excuse the grammar/typing):
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Informative)
I've been teaching for twenty years now and I can attest to the fact that slave labor is rampant in education. Many are require to volunteer (work) for the good of the institution---and it's often a money-maker for the institution. Even with the world's strongest union, we're typically forced into slave labor. Just the other day my boss told me that we as teacher are going to have to increase our non-teaching workload by 40%. The number is nonsense, but it basically suggest that we're going to have to increase our workload.
Anyway, the point being, even with a strong union you can't stop this from happening, so I am kind of surprised that people see this as unusual at Apple, everyone's doing it.
I also see this as hitting the educated more than any other group.
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Insightful)
Educators are typically salaried, no?
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Informative)
Many programmers (especially interns and entry level) are non-exempt. I fail to see how a call center worker would be exempt from overtime rules.
In California, most exempt workers operate under the administrative exemption. An employee is an exempt administrator if he/she regularly exercises discretion and independent judgment, performs under only general supervision, and is primarily engaged in duties that require the exercise of discretion and independent judgment. This means that in the course of day-to-day activities, the employee frequently compares and evaluates possible courses of conduct and, after considering various possibilities, acts or makes a decision. An employee who follows a prescribed procedure, or determines which procedure to follow, is not exercising independent judgment.
While most if not all employees are required to exercise discretion in decision making, an exempt employee must be dealing with matters that are significant to the policies or operations of the business or its customers.
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:4, Insightful)
I've taught and I've worked in a factory. Its obvious you have never worked in a factory if you think that is the easy-to-do job. Standing over a press machine in an non-air conditioned building for 12 hours a day is not easy, even if it is mentally challenging.
Also, factory jobs are not exactly easy to come by these days.
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Funny)
The sad part is most companies seem to think call center = help desk.
Aha! There is your problem. It's: call center == help desk, otherwise your test will always return true; a self fulfilling test, if you will.
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Funny)
> calls come in constantly
Hey, I thought "it just works..."??
:-)
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Funny)
You've obviously never worked in a call center. Often time it does just work. Problem is the user has no clue that a mouse is used by your hand not your foot.
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Informative)
Man, if that's what they were doing they are screwed, from:
http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2003/11/24/daily21.html [bizjournals.com]
"T-Mobile said 20,546 workers at 13 call centers, including one in Salem, were required to perform "preparatory activities" prior to the beginning of their normal shifts. Such activities -- and any other work-related activity beyond 40 hours per week -- must be compensated under the Fair Labor Standards Act, according to an announcement."
T-Mobile lost to the tune of 4.8 Million. Can we say precedence?
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:4, Informative)
This is pretty much industry standard in call-centers. I mentioned this to my managers that I was against coming in early to start computer, read e-mails and sit at my desk for 10 - 15 minutes before I get paid. Add it up over the year and you're looking at an extra $2000. They said no and basically implied that if I didn't I would lose my job. Some of the employees didn't agree with my position and didn't see what was wrong with it until they did the math.
Just to be clear. I've no problem doing the work or the overtime. Coming into work early is fine with me. But they never even offered - and would not even - boot the computers for the employees. In a sales position I made more than enough money that I didn't care. When it came to entry level work, where you don't work for much money and return a lot to the company - as with most call center jobs, its really taking advantage of the unfortunate.
Re:What would Stallman say? (Score:5, Informative)
Other companies in the past have tried to get away with this and been slapped hard. The case Anderson v. Mt. Clemens Pottery Co [wikipedia.org]. was specifically decided in the employees favor on just this issue.
The pottery company did not start paying the employees until after they had reached their workstations, put on their work clothes, cleaned and sharpened their tools. The court ruled that any activity performed exclusively for the benefit of the company counts as paid time, even walking to your workstation. Hence the name "portal-to-portal decision" - employees must be paid as soon as they walk in the door and don't stop until they walk out of it.
I think Apple is probably in trouble here.
Re:STFU or go back to open source you whiners !! (Score:5, Funny)
Mac fans show their people skills again.
Re:who pays a cultist? (Score:5, Funny)
YVAN EHT NOIJ
Re:who pays a cultist? (Score:5, Funny)
cultists don't get payed
But they do get matching outfits and killer group discounts.
Re:who pays a cultist? (Score:5, Funny)
cultists don't get payed
But they do get matching outfits and killer group discounts.
Best of all, drinks are on the house.
No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Funny)
Or, worse yet, try playing football for Manchester United...
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Honda, Toyota, and Subaru seem happy to build cars in the US.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Informative)
So how does this compare, to BMW for example, where their German workforce is also highly unionized? Have they essentially done the same thing as the U.S. automakers, essentially shipping jobs away from heavy regulations in favor of lighter ones?
A quick Google search http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=bmw+unionization+U.S.+plants [google.com] tells me that the U.S. plant is non-unionized but pays competitive wages. What this doesn't say is how their non-wage costs, benefits and retirement for example, compare with their unionized force in German and with the Big 3.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Interesting)
A quick Google search http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=bmw+unionization+U.S.+plants [google.com] tells me that the U.S. plant is non-unionized but pays competitive wages.
Toyota does the same thing in the US. They pay union wages and union benefits in order to keep the union out. Some of their plants have unionized and Toyota is very careful to make sure that non-union plants keep pace with the wages and benefits of the union plants. If you are getting the same benefits without paying union dues, why would employees want a union? Makes sense on both sides as long as Toyota has a few union shops to keep them honest.
To be fair to GM and Ford, they have a generation or two of union costs on them that the new Toyota and Honda ventures do not. Let's see if the Asian manufactures can continue as they are now after they have as many US retirees as US employees. Maybe they can, but I'll be surprised.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
To be fair to GM and Ford, they have a generation or two of union costs on them that the new Toyota and Honda ventures do not.
Let's put this in context. "A generation or two of union costs on them" does not just appear out of nowhere. The company and the union had to *agree* to it. The difference between the US and the Japanese union legacy costs is that the Japanese, by law, had to actually (heaven forbid!) fund the benefits in advance, not just expect superprofits to cover this completely expected cost when it comes due. The US companies did not. The money that they should logically have set aside to fund the benefits, was instead thrown off as bonuses and dividends.
Btw, when I checked my stock trading account, I looked up GM bonds, and the ones that mature in just *three years* from now, are trading at ~28% yields -- I wish I could link it. That's a HUGE risk premium, and it's probably due to the -$40 billion book value of the company. Yes, *negative* 40 billion when you factor in legacy obligations.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Interesting)
If the foreign manufacturers can find ways to keep health care costs under control they will continue to have a serious advantage over GM and Ford...
My brother works for a Toyota plant. They have a pharmacy on site where employees can get over the counter medicine for free. Toyota pays 100% of his monthly premium and his coverage is significantly better than any I've had anywhere I've worked. They already absorb much more of their employees' health care costs than most corporations, which they can do thanks to little retiree benefit costs right now.
...and be able to keep the "built in the USA" perception.
Perception? Their vehicles are "built in the USA" more so than the so-called American car companies.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
The real reason it costs so much less is that contributing to a 401k means that the money is removed from the regular revenue stream. The idiots at GM spent all the money that was supposed to be set aside for pensions which is why they are in so much trouble now.
It turns out when it comes to pensions this was not an uncommon practice but obviously it requires continuous growth which isn't really something that a car company can rely on.
401ks are far safer as employees and employers alike I believe have learned the lesson, plus 401ks are transferrable so if you lose your job after 28 years you don't risk your retirement.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Interesting)
But my main question is, what authority has proclaimed that fast food "ought" to be a bargain? Is there some law somewhere that I'm not aware of? Some moral imperative? Just because something has been some way in the past doesn't mean it has to continue that way.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Delivery drivers have been working toward unionizing for a while now - I believe that there are now a few union Pizza Huts. Don't assume that these people are all teenagers who are trying to save up for a nicer car - many of them depended on this money and are now getting screwed over such that their jobs are barely profitable. Somewhat because of the public perceptions you've outlined in your post - not only that these jobs are only held by people who don't need the money, but also that you don't want your pizza to be a dollar more expensive, so the additional cost gets hidden in a "delivery fee" that winds up cutting into tips, so that even if they get a little of the increase it's more than balanced out by the lower tips. I'm not going to say for sure that they should be unionized, but I can see why they are dissatisfied and want to be treated better. They are fronting the money for their own gas, oil, and car repairs, while the pizza places don't care if their policies lead to lower tips.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Interesting)
Unions will negotiate a "quota" for each job. I worked in a union shop, and was moved into another persons position for a day. The job was to program EPROMs (remember those?). The quota was obviously set when it was done using a slow, single chip programmer, as the quota was about 2 per hour. The hardware did 16 at a time in less than 2 minutes. Unions don't like workers to bust the quota. I had to run around and look for a corner to hide in for most of the day.
That is just ONE of the specific ways that unions add overhead. I could list many more:
- 'senior' employees being promoted over 'experienced' ones.
- job division. Person A can't pick up a wrench (it's a mechanics job). Person B can't flip a switch (it's the electrician's job). Neither can turn on the water (it's the plumber's job).
- I had an engineer come to me one day and ask that I take a box to the other building. I put the empty box on a cart and start down the hall with it. He walked beside me. When I asked what the hell he was doing, he said that he had to go there anyway. !!!???!!! He wasn't allowed to push a cart with an empty box on it. That was a UNION job.
After a while, it just gets boring listing all the ways that a union can fubar a company.
Re: unions (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked as a contractor at Chrysler and maintained their driving simulator. There was a union guy in the lab that was responsible for moving stuff around (I'd get fired if I moved a PC, I had to ask him to do it). Since we weren't moving stuff around much, he spent most of the day sleeping. Every once and a while the mock-up shop needed him to build a 1-1 scale car out of wood. It would take him a few days to build an exact replica of a new vehicle. The work he did (does?) was amazing.
Long story short: people with great potential and skills are sitting around doing nothing.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Interesting)
So how does this compare, to BMW for example, where their German workforce is also highly unionized? Have they essentially done the same thing as the U.S. automakers, essentially shipping jobs away from heavy regulations in favor of lighter ones?
I don't think it's so much the strength of the labor regulations - though if you're going to move, choosing less restrictive countries makes sense. But I think it's more of a "do-over". Once your workforce has gone union in a particular country, it's pretty much impossible to un-unionize it, so you basically have to move it overseas somewhere and fight the unionization move there if you want to survive. So Japanese and German companies can make cars in the US, the US companies can make cars in Mexico, etc.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Funny)
[citation needed]
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
True, I love how Obama's people keep ignoring the fact that the lower capital gains tax has actually increased capital gains revenues. I kinda hope Obama gets elected so we can see how he isn't any different than any other politician.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
it's cheaper for foreign auto makers to assemble here in the USA than it is for the Big Three...mostly because of overbearing union activity
Let me call a big BULLS%#T on that. First, Germany has much more powerful employee bargaining and safeguards and other pro-union policies and unions than the US does.
Second, although the big three love to blame all their problems on the unions, they've found enough cash to buy out most of the other automakers on the planet (volvo, saab, jaguar, subaru, range rover ... to name just a few). Yet they haven't found the cash to refit and retool their american factories. They don't bother with those factories, because they can always promise investors short-term profits by shutting down a few factories and putting 10s of thousands of Americans out of work, knowing that in a few months or a year they'll be able to hire (some) again when production picks up.
Meanwhile, the *newly built* foreign carmakers' factories can produce more vehicles more efficiently with greater quality control. With (surprise) those same American workers.
But no, please, blame the workers. It's clearly all their fault.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Interesting)
Legislation draws a line on which to build a contract, that way there is no reason for bitter strife between company and unions about very basic things like health care and pensions.
The weirdest is that Germany does not have a legal minimum wage yet any reputable(!) company pays well above what is minimum in comparable countries.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, and when unions in Europe strike they pretty much grind the entire nation to a halt.
I am convinced that unions have crippled the automakers, but I do also agree that management has brought this on themselves. They're constantly reacting to the market instead of innovating. And there seems to be this endless stream of poor decisions. Instead of improving the overall lineup they keep focusing on individual, flagship models they think will somehow turn everything around for them.
I think Chrysler is pretty much doomed with nothing compelling in their lineup and they seem ill-equipped to address high fuel prices. Ford has an excellent inventory of cars available overseas that they stupidly haven't imported to the US. GM is currently showing the most potential, but they've got a bloated lineup and they're still making some questionable decisions. They're still focused on the symptoms and not on the source of their problems.
The problem with unions is that they're out for their own interests and are often willing to run a company into the ground if they dont get their way. What's troubling is this push to eliminate private ballots which the democrats seem keen on supporting. Basically, union leaders would be privy to how employees have voted and could more easily pressure them into voting their way. I'm shocked this is even being seriously considered. It seems unconstitutional to me.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
it's mostly because of tariffs, not because of the unions.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Interesting)
Unions aren't needed where people are treated fairly. The union has been trying to get it's way into foreigned-owned car manufactureres like Toyota and Nissan for years. AFAIK, the UAW has been unable to succeed. Twice the vote to unionized at Nissan has been voted down 2 to 1 [nytimes.com].
Personally I have no respect for unions anymore since they are actively trying to unionize illegal workers [cnn.com]. The union was supposed to be about protecting American jobs, not encouraging those who are breaking the law. Now it's all about the $$$.
But the only real way to get manufacturers back in the US is for it to be more expensive for goods from overseas to come into the US than to be manufactured here. But neither party seems willing to do anything to stop US companies from outsourcing to countries with minimal wages and even more minimal safety practices.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I have no respect for unions anymore since they are actively trying to unionize illegal workers [cnn.com]. The union was supposed to be about protecting American jobs, not encouraging those who are breaking the law. Now it's all about the $$$.
Unions are about protecting workers, as people.
Solidarity with your fellow worker doesn't necessarily end at the border, at least not for all of us. The whole idea of unionizing is to avoid exploited workers. Illegal immigrants are more vulnerable to that. In fact, their vulnerability is what makes them more interesting for employers.
If illegal immigrants were unionized, they would lose some of their appeal as slave workers, which could even have a beneficial effect for all workers.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:import limits? (Score:4, Interesting)
Didn't they do this as the result of import limits?
That could very well be true also. I live a county or two over from the BMW plant here in South Carolina, a plant that is being doubled in size curently, and also doubling it's workforce. BMW was quoted in the paper saying it was cheaper for them to make the cars here and ship them to Germany and the rest of the EU mostly due to the weak dollar. I'm sure there are a million other reasons, but that was their statement.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Funny)
Apples most successful product:
iPerbole
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
The point you make is the exact point all corporations make in order to exploit cheap foreign labor. "Well, their lives sucked, so let us pay them peanuts, then they must be happy"
Also it is beyond my understanding that someone tells us that what is being done is good for them without seeing there, talking to anyone working there. Don't you think it is way too arrogant to "know" what is good for them?
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems to me that goes both ways. A lot of folks agitating for changes in oversea working conditions (at least with respect to China) might be very surprised to learn the actual opinions of all those poor, downtrodden folks they are "protecting."
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Witty, but not relevant to this situation.
What is actually relevant to this situation is the routine exposure of corruption among the recruiting process for these allegedly horrific conditions.
So, to connect your phrasing to reality,
"Why, my nigger paid the overseer under the table his entire family's life savings plus sold two of his daughters to get to work for me! Don't have to ask him nuttin' do ya?"
When there no longer are stories of that sort about how desperately people bribe anyone they can to get a chance at these allegedly horrific conditions, then perhaps there might be something to discuss.
In the meantime, the politest thing you can say about people who think there is a problem is that they are not familiar with the alternatives available to the workers, and they lack the basic grasp of economics that the only historically effective way to improve working conditions has been to reduce labor surplus, which is most effectively done by increasing number of jobs. (In a few cases restricting supply by unionization or its bastard cousin "professional certification" works too, yes, but simply growing the economy so jobs outpace workforce growth is much better as it does not restrict the freedom of individuals.)
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Also it is beyond my understanding that someone tells us that what is being done is good for them without seeing there, talking to anyone working there. Don't you think it is way too arrogant to "know" what is good for them?
All I have to know is that the sweatshop workers decided, on their own free will, to go and work for Apple under those conditions to conclude that this is better for them than the alternatives. I am not arrogant enough to think I know better than they do what's good for them. Note that they might hate their job, but it's better than the alternatives.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Informative)
I can't talk to them because they speak Chinese. But I have worked with them and have spoken to the factory engineers who do speak English.
They aren't all "happy", and nor are they all "sad". That's too simplistic. They are people with a wide range of emotions. Most of them - as I said before - were subsistence farmers and most have no education. None at all. They can't read or write.
The competition for labor is fierce. They move around from factory to factory seeking higher pay (the engineers do this, too). They aren't slaves that are compelled to work in one place.
Would they rather be living with their families? Certainly some (most?) would. Are they happy to have a full belly and some money to send back home? Absolutely.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Informative)
And at the same time, the factory owners are moving to the inner provinces as wages demands keep increasing, thus increasing the demand for transportation.
Riot at McDonalds toy making factory [forbes.com]
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
option 4:
Pay them a decent wage by the local standards,nothing amazing but enough that they live comfortably and can send their kids to school.
Keep some decent safety standards in the factory even if the local government is too fucked up to have laws on workplace safety.
End up with a product that's a few percent more expensive but still competetive.
Get decent stock options and bonuses
Keep your soul.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
He said he had spent some time in China, and saw that the general public was actually living pretty well. Yes, there are human rights violations, and the government there is oppressive, but there are some things (I think Apple is probably a good example) that look bad at the outset, but from the point of view of the workers there, are OK. Part of the problem, I think, is we are equating a dollar amount to life quality, and I don't think it is too simple- there's cultural differences here, and there is simply scale in general.... while we think working 15 hour days is ridiculous, let's keep in mind that a lot of people in China pray for any employment... remember that China's population is measured in BILLIONS- there's just not enough work to go around.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, I've made some generalizations in my time, but to make a billion person generalization, that's amazing.
I know your 80 year old friend has seen a lot of years, but I highly doubt with 1 billion people, he has seen nearly enough of the quality of life of at the very least hundreds of millions of Chinese who are drinking water poisoned by industry and starving because their natural food sources like fish are being wiped out.
On top of that, working 15 hours a day for peanuts is what it is. There's no amount of "relative" standard you can apply to it to spin it to sound not so bad.
This kind of #1 economy apologism is the type of disgusting crap you see from Bill O'Reilly. "They don't need more than a couple dollars a day. They don't know any better. They have enough money to buy a bowl of rice and they're happy." The fact that someone has meager goals because they live in a poor situation isn't a justification for the broad statements that presume that they're satisified and happy with their quality of life.
Now personally I believe this is China's problem to deal with internally and we have our own domestic poor that we're not handling that well, but to try to escape any moral association with taking advantage of disgusting labor conditions and wages by making uninformed generalizations and excuses about how self-limiting they are...
I think the argument is ridiculous, the points brought up are illogical and unsupported, and generally the whole effort to whitewash the situation turns my stomach.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
while we think working 15 hour days is ridiculous, let's keep in mind that a lot of people in China pray for any employment... remember that China's population is measured in BILLIONS- there's just not enough work to go around.
If there's not enough work to go around, then how come people have to work 15 hours a day to do it?
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Informative)
If demand for work is higher than supply of work, then people who provide work can charge a premium; this translates to increased hours.
In other words, one worker for 15 hours is one bed and three meals. Two workers for 8 hours is two beds and six meals.
If there were more work than workers, workers could dictate their hours, their pay, and their benefits. Make sense?
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Informative)
Protecting a domestic job artificially costs the entire society in productivity lost and higher cost of goods sold. It's like enacting a tax to benefit the factory worker.
Besides the economic mumbo-jumbo, the choices aren't "$50/month for an iPod maker in China vs. $2500/month for an iPod maker in the west". In reality, the production line would include a lot more automation if it had to be produced in the west. Just look at western vs. Chinese coal mines. Also, if products cost more, fewer would be sold and so even fewer workers would be needed. How many iPods do you think Apple would sell if the price doubled or tripled?
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
"don't like how Apple does business, quit, and get another job"
The funny thing about labor markets is if one employer gets away with abusive practices, especially a prominent one, pretty soon they all do it to compete and you wont have any place better to go. Not saying Apple's conditions are abusive, some people could just be whining, but practices at a lot of high tech companies are pretty abusive and probably getting more so.
Unless there is a serious shortage of workers its expected for employers to devolve to the lowest common denominator they can get away with. With a planet bursting at the seems with workers, with globalization, the internet, container ships and fiber optics, the whole world is now the labor pool which means, chances are, working for the man is gonna suck from now on.
You sound like one of those people that thinks the invisible hand of free markets will solve all problems. The only problem is all indications are the invisible hand, unchecked, will result in a small percentage of the world's population, the ones with capital being extremely rich and everyone else being extremely poor. Around 1900 working conditions in the U.S. were pretty similar to China, and wealth was concentrating in the hand of the few. It took the progressive movement, labor unions, and a World War II fueled boom to raise the standard of living for everyone in the U.S. We are now seeing wealth concentration at a disturbing level again and that living standard crater for working people, partially thanks to the Bush administration. A hedge fund manager making billions of dollars a year pays taxes at 15%. Most working people pay around %37.5 counting income and all payroll taxes, and not counting regressive sales taxes. Most people didn't notice but the Republicans instituted an extremely regressive tax system designed to destroy working people and to make the rich, very rich, very fast.
There is an interesting twist lately for manufacturing workers. With soaring oil prices its becoming very expensive to ship heavy commodities and manufactured good half way around the world. The cost for shipping containers from China to U.S. have gone from $3000 to $8000 and container ships are dropping their speed %20 to save fuel increasing shipping times. I read that some manufacturers targeting the U.S. are moving from China back to Mexico to reduce shipping costs.
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:4, Insightful)
What abusive business practices are you talking about? From what I've read, Apple has always been a kinda "grindhouse". Coming from your mindset, Google should be a grindhouse too, since Apple can get away with it. Or perhaps it should be the other way around. Or, maybe more likely, different companies are going to run different ways, regardless of what other companies do (outside of adopting some semi-standard business practices such as time sheets, etc..).
While I might sound like one of "those people" who think the invisible hand of free market will "solve all problems", you sound like one of those far left leaning quasi-communists that believe the oppressive hand of government will create equality for everyone and spread the wealth around. Highly regulated markets are always better than free markets. Right USSR? I know its somehow appealing that the "magical government people" can somehow make things "equal and better" the dangers of the free market are BY AND FAR less dangerous than imposing government. As for your "concentration of wealth" argument, there is alot more to do with new innovations and technologies that created alot of opportunities for small businesses to become big business over the course of a century. Wealth consolidation always happens. Always (just pick up a history book).
Today is the best day to be alive in the history of human kind (outside a few select places). Globalization has improved the conditions of humanity on a scale NEVER witnessed before in human history. And to top it off, much of that globalization, and massive improvements have happened while your most hated enemy, GW Bush, was president of that most horrible nation, the USA (which gives to charities/poor/sick more than all other nations combined). Need a good example, take a look at the contributions to Africa from the nations that RAPED that continent (here's looking to you Europe) compared to the USA. Shameful isnt it?
Re:No, *THESE* are slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait, you not going to suddenly go all inconsistent and say that's totally different are you?
That's totally disingenuous. The Chinese subsistence farmers leave on their own accord (actually have to be kept out of the cities by force). African slaves were rounded up, chained up, and sold. Chinese factory workers can go back to their families on the farm, or can change jobs (and frequently do) as they are not indentured or bound to their employer. Slaves could not go anywhere.
There are certainly elements of the Chinese government's policy that I think infringe on human rights - but to call it slavery is frankly disgusting, since there ARE people living as slaves today (mostly in the sex trade IIRC).
News... (Score:5, Insightful)
You know for all the flak we give the traditional media, at least they don't have headlines like this.
Not properly dispensing overtime pay is not the same thing as slavery, and the disconnect between the inflammatory headline and TFA is appalling.
On a lighter note, the CAPTCHA for me is unionize.
Re:News... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yours is one of many posts saying the same thing (and getting +5 insightful).
Why are you guys focusing on bashing the headline instead on the actual problem, which is that highly skilled people are working over time for nothing?
This IS a serious problem because,
- It is so common in the industry that there aren't lots of alternatives.
- The more they work the more others (even in other countries) are forced to work.
- Quitting is not a serious option unless you are rich and work for sport.
Re:News... (Score:4, Insightful)
Why are you guys focusing on bashing the headline instead on the actual problem, which is that highly skilled people are working over time for nothing?
Two reasons:
Re:News... (Score:5, Insightful)
instead on the actual problem, which is that highly skilled people are working over time for nothing
Let's start by convincing me that this is a problem. These highly skilled people are also highly paid. Overtime pay is important, I will assert, because low paid people deserve a fair wage for their time.
A software developer who makes a $90k salary doesn't quite fit the description. $90k is about $45/hour, if you work 40 hour weeks, and about $34 an hour if you average 50 hour weeks. $34 an hour is hardly starvation money. Whether this is a fair wage for their time is a matter of negotiation between the employee and the employer, in my opinion.
The lack of overtime compensation is not forcing people into poverty, and it's not even abuse. It's apparently a condition of the employment at Apple, that some people don't like. Fair enough - find another job that doesn't demand that level of work.
The right way to state this is that highly paid people are being tasked with work that takes more than 40 hours a week. They are complaining about that, and trying to use the government to renegotiate their salary. I suggest that they go move to France, where the government will help them do so. In the US, I'll be surprised if they succeed, because the laws in most states are pretty clear that professional work is generally excluded from requirements for overtime pay. Professional work is usually defined as that which requires a lengthy period of study to attain, such as accounting, medicine, and engineering.
Personally, I am a little disgusted with the whining attitude of the gen x'rs. I have worked hours over my career that make these claims look paltry by comparison. The result, over time, was that I advanced in my career, and made some significant money when our company went public. My parents did the same. My grandfather worked his ass off on a farm, and was dirt poor. The chinese are working their asses off for $50 a month.
If you all want civil service work conditions, go get a job working for the post office, and see how much fun that is. Develoment is hard, and to make a business of it sometimes means stretching your self. Toughen up and grow a sack. Or understand that you are relegating yourself to the group of workers that your managers will look at as being solely interested in what's in it for you, and therefore placing yourself on the list of those to jettison whenever cuts need to be made.
Slaves, eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slaves, eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Damn right, they are 'Resources' not Slaves.
Re:Slaves, eh? (Score:4, Informative)
If it isn't racist, it isn't slavery? That's the stupidest argument I ever heard. There might be good reasons to argue that it isn't slavery, but you've failed to find one of them.
Re:Slaves, eh? (Score:4, Funny)
Ah, I see, now I'm a racist too. Excellent comeback.
Jobs (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Slavery? (Score:4, Insightful)
'Slavery' seems like far too extreme of a word the 'indentured servitude' is slightly less inaccurate. And concerning 'servitude' the 13th amendment only prohibits "involuntary servitude". These people can quit if they would like.
Overexaggerate Much? (Score:4, Insightful)
Indentured Servitude [wikipedia.org]: An indentured servant is a form of debt bondage worker, in which the indentured individual is intentionally, unethically and illegally deprived of their human rights, their civil rights and their personal freedom and liberty.
Unfortunately TFA is Slashdotted right now so I can't read all of the details, but if the summary is anything to go by, I really, really doubt Apple was forcing these guys to work due to debt and/or was holding them captive. What they did do was make their workers work OT without paying them correctly, which is an inexcusably naughty practice, but it's hardly indentured servitude, slavery, or any other form of bondage.
Furthermore this shit is fairly common, Apple isn't the first company or the last company to stiff their employees on OT. That doesn't make it right and certainly knocks Apple down a few pegs in my own eyes, but get some perspective here people.
My Wife's A Teacher (Score:5, Insightful)
She and her colleagues have "X" number of contract days for which they must report to work.
However of late, the practice has begun of additional "nonmandatory" meetings, training sessions, and general workdays. You know, "for the children." This has grown to the point where she is probably present "at work" during about 12 to 15 days of her summer vacation. None of this time is compensated in any way; in fact, with gasoline costs as they are, you may readily say SHE is paying for this privilege.
Oh, it's "not mandatory," but it is "expected" by the administrators, who like to boast to their peers about the amount of "donated time" they're getting out of their teachers. "Failure to cooperate" can lead to subtle retaliation.
My point is that this isn't "slavery" but it is d*mned inconsiderate. If you want to climb the "ladder of success," don't do it on the backs of your "underlings."
Re:My Wife's A Teacher (Score:4, Informative)
Re:My Wife's A Teacher (Score:5, Informative)
Is everyone a freakin slave these days? (Score:5, Insightful)
Good god it appears to be the phrase of the year "We are just modern slaves". Top of the shop of abuse of the term is Sepp "I'm a nutter" Blatter who in reference to someone who is paid about $300,000 A WEEK said that it was just like modern slavery [google.co.uk].
These people aren't slaves because.... THEY COULD QUIT. It might be tough, it might be hard, but either quit and get another job or work out a constructive way of fixing it.
Don't compare it to the physical ownership of another human being and the sort of destruction of human rights that entails.
IDE chain gang (Score:5, Funny)
Apple employees should just switch which pins are connected via the jumper. It's clearly labeled on the top of the drive.
Such Insensitivity (Score:5, Funny)
I take it these people didn't get the memo. Do these people not know that?
The Apple Employee (Score:5, Funny)
It Just Works.(TM)
pathetic (Score:5, Interesting)
Equating earning $100k and working in an air conditioned office longer than you expected with SLAVERY disparages the memories of those who were whipped to near death while working in fields, and paid nothing.
I think the court should order those workers to work on plantations without pay for a while, then reconsider their use of the word "slavery."
Re:pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
Delicious (Score:5, Funny)
"Coke Cola introduced a new, delicious Lime-twisted beverage today, creating a Holocaust of flavor formerly unknown to this world until today. The lines of people at convenience stores remind one of cattle awaiting an unknown fate, only these cattle were people, and the fate a tasty, carbonated beverage."
Just until the suite is resolved,, (Score:5, Informative)
Just wait until they win their suit..Apple will pay the court required payments.. then convert all those employee to an hourly status...at a base pay cut design to make it so that all the overtime is required to make it back to what they were getting in salary in the first place.
For the IBM employeesu in California that sued for the same thing.. the class won $56M and everyone in the class was reclassified as hourly at a 15% pay cut, because based on IBM's calculations that would keep the wage payments at the same level after the switch from salary to hourly. And oh by the way.. IBM applied the reclassification across all American employees in the same job category, but not the class action payments.
Welcome to Corporate America (Score:5, Insightful)
... where, unless you are upper management, you are getting the shaft. Being a developer, I particularly like how (at my company anyway) our sales staff pulls down Director level salary and obscene commissions on the gross (NOT net) product they push out the door ... even when it means a loss for the company.
I remember back years ago where there were a few movements to form programmers unions ... doomed to failure from the inception. Programmers don't need huge entrenched installations to do our work like, say, UAW workers do ... and since every cocky high school kid who has churned out "Hello World" in Visual Basic thinks they can do real development ... and the typical management position that developers are an easily replaced commodity.
I dunno. I'm just old and jaded. Always do the best work you are capable of doing, and if you feel you deserve better compensation when your company is either unwilling (don't see you as a valuable asset) or unable (poor decisions have left them so fubar that they can't) then it is time to move on. Possibly more important ... if you are unhappy doing what you are doing, forget the compensation and move ASAP.
Suing your own company for a perceived lack of compensation is the best way to build resentment and to nail the coffin shut on your future with that, or any other, company.
what a twit (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple employees aren't slaves. Or even indentured servants. The comparison is offensive given there is real slavery going on elsewhere in the world.
Are they asked to work unreasonable hours and compensated unfairly? Maybe. But they can always quit and seek employment elsewhere. If all of Apple's talent just up and leaves, they'll either fail as a company or rectify their compensation strategy. Capitalism at work.
Slaves (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the law (Score:5, Informative)
Read the laws reguarding overtime. According the the Fair Labor Standards Act, an employee must be classified as exempt by meeting certain legal requirements, or they must be paid 1.5x their hourly wage. The law specifically states that no contract or agreement between employee and employer can override the law.
Read all about it, you very well might be a victim too!
http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/ [dol.gov]
Getting hung up on terminology. (Score:4, Insightful)
A lot of people are getting hung up on the use of the word slavery in this context. Now, I agree that what were seeing here isn't remotely close to slavery, indentured servitude, etc.
But use of on "over the top" word doesn't change the possibility that Apple's employment practices may be violation of State or Federal law. A lot of employers over use the salaried position category to avoid paying overtime. Most employee's do not understand their rights enough to know the difference to they put up with it assuming that is just part of the job, when, in fact, they are being abused.
Modern Day Slaves? (Score:4, Funny)
I wholeheartedly agree that Apple is required to follow state work laws, and should be punished if they are not doing so.
HOWEVER.. some IT Dork that probably makes 85k+ a year calling himself a "Modern Day Slave", because he doesn't get overtime? I'm sure there a some illegals working in textile plants that would disagree.
Re:Queue the jokes, and something serious... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Queue the jokes, and something serious... (Score:5, Insightful)
Really ? According to an article I read (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the US is the ONLY industrialized nation where annual leave is not a legal requirement. Heck, most DEVELOPING countries have it as a requirement. 14 days a year in South Africa (and if you don't use them all, they have to pay you for it), a full month in Brazil, 2 months in Germany.
And the grand irony - legally protected annual leave has been proven to INCREASE corporate productivity (as much as any economic idea is ever proven anyways).
Re:Queue the jokes, and something serious... (Score:4, Insightful)
If annual leave actually increases corporate productivity, then it will be adopted by corporations operating in a capitalist market. It's that simple. What we do have in the USA is the freedom to decide that between employer and employee, as well as the freedom to experiment with whether and how much paid vacation affects productivity. You can't prove that it increases productivity because you don't have any way to experiment.
That's such a ridiculous fallacy. It turns out the world isn't a perfect capitalist market. That would require perfect knowledge, and it turns out that no one has that. People who make these decisions make them for their own benefit, are terrified of experimenting in a way that could upset the things that are already working, and usually abandon any new ideas the moment any remotely potential problem arises.
The GP points at some of the only evidence we do have, which comes from the powerhouse European economy's generous paid leave. Does that prove anything? No. It lets us make some educated guesses, though, and to think that capitalism means that the best solution will always be adopted and become widespread is a great mistake. At best, capitalism in practice is a series of educated guesses that often leads down very unproductive roads.
Re:Queue the jokes, and something serious... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, state law typically trumps any/all contract law - if the contract signed was illegal, then you're not held to it.
I don't get paid for showing up to work per hour. I get paid to work and do a job.
We're in America - we're free to fail, and I think that people don't like that sometimes - they felt they are owed for simply trying. You're not. Hence the complaints about stupid stuff like this where people FEEL "trapped" when they're not in it as much as they think they are. Successful people don't whine about their circumstances - they go out and try to change them.
Re:Queue the jokes, and something serious... (Score:5, Informative)
"They can't fire you for not working overtime. "
Yes, yes they can, they can fire you without even giving a reason in any of the "at will" states.
Re:Queue the jokes, and something serious... (Score:4, Funny)
Eh no, sorry bub, we're not just leeches on the great ol' US.
We're actually very similar to the US - we live on debt and cheap shit from China.
Re:the new neocon slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
I remember when slashdot was full of smart people with a liberal philosophy
I don't remember that. I remember a slashdot full of nerds... all the way down.
Re:Cry me a river (Score:5, Insightful)
.
Don't misunderstand, I think it is very macho of you to give your labor away for free. Being taken advantage of by your bosses is the best way to prove that you are an IT god, after all. I'm sure that since you've taken care of your company in this way, they'll take care of you. Even if shipping your job someplace else or just eliminating it makes financial sense, I'm sure you'll be fine. After all, after all the loyalty and dedication you've shown, they'd never do that to you, would they?
Incidentally, iPods/iPhones? Worthless consumer junk, give me the cash not the overpriced trinket.