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Apple Climbs Into Third Place In U.S. PC Market
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Jul 17, 2008 01:03 PM
from the your-only-possible-choices-are-vista-and-os-x dept.
from the your-only-possible-choices-are-vista-and-os-x dept.
Tibor the Hun writes "According to Gartner and IDC, Apple now has between 7.8 and 8.5% of market share. While those numbers are not astonishing, they are not insignificant, and their growth does not seem to be slowing down. Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption? Hard to tell, but it's good to see that normal people (not just us geeks) are choosing to go with a different OS, rather than staying with the headache-inducing Windows."
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Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
And since when have Apple users been considered "normal" around here?
Or did you really mean 'orthogonal'
Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
anyone who can't get Windows to run decently should be turning in their geek card already.
Really? Seriously?
Okay. I can get windows to run. Really, I can. That doesn't mean it isn't a fucking pain in the ass, a terrible user experience, and a waste of resources. Sorry, I have plenty of reasons to get headaches from windows. Not being geeky enough to handle it isn't one them.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
As a long-time Windows user who has since switched to both OS X and Linux...
1 - Registry bloat. No other OS keeps app settings and preferences in what really amounts of a gigantic text file. Many apps do NOT remove registry entries correctly (or fully) when uninstalled. Inevitably this file will bloat, bloat, bloat, bloat until it takes forever just to get anything out of it.
2 - System folder bloat. No package manager in Windows, yet things insist on storing dependencies in a shared manner. This is pain, since *nobody* dares remove any library from your system upon uninstall because nobody is sure if anyone else needs it. As you install/uninstall things from your system, this folder will bloat, bloat, bloat. It's incredible how much larger a Windows install can get just 1 year after a fresh reformat.
These things are unavoidable. Your users may well have avoided these issues if their machines were locked like Fort Knox and they were unable to install and tweak to their liking. As a heavy dev who's always trying new tools, the constant install/uninstall cycle takes its toll VERY VERY quickly in Windows, whereas in OS X and Linux the system remains squeaky clean.
Oh, and did I mention that I need admin privileges to do ANYTHING? I can't even install a flash plugin for *myself* without needing full admin privileges to the system. This is lazy programming, and Windows is full of it. If I were a sysadmin I'd be tearing my hair out. It's either: "screw you guys, use the pre-installed software and nothing else", or "have fun with full admin, I'll be here waiting for your f'ed up computer". There's no happy medium.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but lots of different text files. Windows only has two files for everything.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
It does "work well" for them. Of course, that means they can generally run the programs they need at a reasonable speed with a minimum of glitches.
So XP works well enough for folks that are comfortable with it. It doesn't have the rich features, deep pool of easy-to-install applications, lightning speed, or sophisticated visual effects that Linux does, but it does "work well" for them.
It's "good enough" for their work -- which is all they're trying to do. That makes it the right tool for the job.
Personally, though, I find working with Windows to feel like fingernails on a chalkboard compared to Ubuntu.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
Someone's sig once said: Calling OSX secure is like calling the second fattest girl in the club skinny.
And as for your sig... it's the mac *users* that really bug me. Most of them complain about something they don't understand and praise each other for being rebellious bohemians.
It's a tool and a toy... not a way of life or philosophy!
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't comment on the Aperture/network backup issue but...
10.5 has a unified Finder, all windows behave the same at all times... although I think you can still make them unique they default to however you chose to display the last window.
As for the mice... plug in a USB mouse. Its not that hard, and I have never seen one that is unsupported. Additionally, for laptops use two finger clicking. Two fingers on trackpad + click = right click. I find this is even faster/comfortable than having a button since you never have to look or worry about hitting the wrong one.
Similarly, if you are challenged editing text files... well nobody can help you there. Seriously, pico /etc/hosts ? Its not that hard, and there are an abundance of great text editors for the Mac.
I have to say I completely disagree, I used Windows from 3.11 to XP and DOS before those... and in my mere four years of using OS X I have never had a more trouble-free computing experience. The attention to detail is astounding and once you stop expecting it to work like Windows (such as mucking around in obscure settings dialogs) it for the most part DOES "just work" and DOES get the hell out of my way.
As for not finding good open source Applications... I don't understand that either. I've been amazed at the quality of some of the completely free Apps here (Adium, Cyberduck, Colloquy, Drosera, NoobProof, Burn, ClamXav, EZ 7z, UnrarX, MacPar, MAMP, NicePlayer, Max, PureFTPd Manager, Transmission) ... they do a great job following HIG guidelines and I've yet to find a function I couldn't find an App for even though in some cases I do choose to pay for reasonably priced software (Acorn, Cheetah 3D, MoneyWell, LineForm, OmniGraffle, CSSEdit, TextMate, PandoraJam among them...)
No free utilities is a bunch of crap. As for for-pay apps I know this is /. but I find the level of Polish for Mac Shareware a step above that of Windows. Your usage may vary but I hear a lot of unfounded claims...
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
Like finder will remember the view settings for each individual folder. I can't tell it to use one default view for every folder
Yes you can. Open a finder window, set it to the view type you want to set as default. I use List View (Cmd+2). Press Cmd+J to show the View Options pane. Notice how this pane changes as you cycle through the different view modes (Cmd+1-4). Once you adjust the settings to your liking, simply click "Use as Defaults" on the bottom of the View Options pane.
the standard methods of accessing the method with a single button are holding Ctrl then clicking or holding down the mouse button.
I assume you're using a laptop since you said you have to go get a usb mouse in order to right click. In the Keyboard & Mouse section of System Preferences, under "Trackpad" you can check an option labeled "Tap trackpad using two fingers for secondary click." I use it all the time.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when is M$ bashing flamebait on slashdot? Are you new here?
And just because most of us can maintain a windows box doesn't mean we like it - my mechanic maintains my old Land Rover, but it certainly induces headaches.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Flame war == more comments == more page hits == more ad impressions.
:)
Besides, instigating an MS-bashing comment flood is like firing up your favorite game and playing through it in 'easy' mode.
So once in a while, even though it's been done before, we get to have an anti-MS free for all, because it's easy. And fun.
My favorite part are the people who complain about trollish summaries, because I get to imagine how their panties got in such a tight knot.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Interesting)
I argue that it's actually impossible to get Windows to run decently no matter how much of a geek you are because the software is written poorly and is designed to annoy the user.
Ah, counterexamples, the one useful function of anecdotal evidence. I run Vista beautifully. It doesn't get in my way, it runs the software I want it to, it just works. So yes, it is possible. Without much effort, either, I might add.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost everybody out there, including the true geeks, runs Windows at work because they have to. Linux, Windows servers, XP desktops, Solaris, whatever corporate buys. Everything EXCEPT Macs.
At home we have a Macbook. Why? I don't mind running XP at work, but I'm not shelling out my own dough for Vista. I'd rather give it to Steve.
I think the backlash against Vista, whether justified or not, has caused a lot of people to look at Macs and to some degree Linux.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
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Corrections (Score:5, Insightful)
all it takes to run Windows is to pop in the disk and let it install
This little bit of folklore deserves to die.
1. Got a system restore disk? (Not an OEM-style installer!) Then sure, many minutes later your "my documents" is gone, but you are pretty much back up to day-1 status.
2. Got an OEM installer disk? How many of those disks do not include the drivers for devices like, ohhh your *ethernet* adapter? That is the purest soul-sucking time sink ever.
Apple's installer is pretty great for this reason. I seem to recall it kept my wife's home files intact.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
2-4 hours is pretty good going. Of course, then you have to install all the software. Wordpad and Paintbrush aren't going to get you very far.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
Are you sure you have that one right? Macs these days are basically Intel boxes with blinky keyboards and bog standard innards (OK, the MacPro innards are pretty neat but memory card risers have been around since at least S-100 bus days).
It's the Mac users that are bat-shit insane (absent myself, of course - I'm OK, just ask my dog).
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Funny)
I did, he said
*sniff* *sniff* *snarl* *growl* *bark* *growl* *bite*
I didn't hear the rest, I was rather distracted from the blood oozing from my arm. Sorry.
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Schizophrenic Mac Hardware (Score:5, Interesting)
Then again, if Apple just isn't good at designing certain things, what are they supposed to do? Start selling updated IBM Model-M keyboards with their high-end desktops? Grado's with the iPods? Paint microsoft mice white!!? It's almost unimaginable, and I see that as a problem.
This is my main beef with Apple. They're too image conscious. Admittedly, some of their user-base just wants to be fashionable, but is being fashionable really a long-term plan for success? Given how much of an asshole he is, sooner or later Jobs is going to become "uncool". Increased market share and, hence, lessened uniqueness isn't going to help. Normal people will use uncool hardware if it's *good*. This is a lesson I feel Apple needs to learn.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
I converted to Macs a few years ago and found the OS X interface to be the most intuitive I've ever used. The plus and minus signs at the bottom of lists seems obviously to imply add and remove.
Windows always took me a while to learn the nuances. And then another version with a changed interface would force me to learn the changes. But with OS X I typically just ask myself how something should work and there it is, right where I'd expect it.
So far I've found that most people's issues with learning the OS X interface is actually unlearning another interface.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
You didn't see the "?" button on the Accounts pane? Clicking that clearly outlines what you need to know.
The "+" and "-" and similar buttons are used almost universally and consistently throughout Mac OS X, Apple applications and 3rd party applications.
It isn't about being pretty but consistent and directly useful/discoverable without clutter.
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Informative)
That's a pretty bad example. Congratulations, you just learned the UI widget for adding something.
Now, in most every single Mac native application (and the good ports), you know when you are "adding X", there will always be a button with a + symbol at the bottom corner.
Let's take Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac as an example of "you can write FORTRAN in every language". Say you want to set the default format to the old binary one instead of OpenXML.
Word: Hit preferences. It's a System-Preferences like presentation of a matrix of icons. Hit compatibility. Nothing there. Hit "Save". Ah, "Save Word files as ... (dropdown to .doc)"
Excel: Hit preferences. Again, a System-Preferences matrix of icons. Hit "Save". Nothing there. Hit "Compatibility" - ah, a different layout of dropdown box.
Powerpoint: Hit preferences. It's a tabbed interface. Go to the "Save" tab and hit "Save powerpoint files as ... (dropdown to .ppt)"
So, there are 2 layouts of preferences (tabbed versus icon matrix) and two places where this dropdown is hidden (save versus compatibility), and two different styles for the dropdown. No two apps are the same.
But yes, you do get buttons with labels. Just not a consistent GUI...
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Re:Normal People? (Score:5, Insightful)
No - it means that you're used to Windows or Linux conventions, and are trying to use those conventions in an Apple environment.
It doesn't work that way. I'll be blunt: learning OSX is a pain. There's a ton of non-obvious stuff that is completely different from the Windows world (I'll just point to tabbing between firefox windows when other apps are open as one of my initial pain points), and which have to be re-learned. Remember that first time you fired up Linux? How much stumbling around did you have to do? It's the same thing for OSX. Expecting to be able to navigate all of OSX without ever looking for help anywhere is.... unrealistic.
What I will argue though is that OSX has the smallest learning curve of any new OS. I remember playing around with Linux, and having to root through config files and command line arguments to get stuff to work. Windows was a collection of arcane commands that made no sense, but worked. Compared to that, OSX is a breeze.
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I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Interesting)
when will a project similar to WINE come out for OSX? I have seen all sorts of apps that run on Mac and/or PC's but not linux. One would think it would almost be easier to "not emulate" the OSX software, as it is mostly unix based. If more software starts coming out for mac and PC, it might be easier to get the Mac software running under linux.
Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Funny)
It's a "compatibility layer", you insensitive clod!
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Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Informative)
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GNUstep (Score:5, Informative)
That would be GNUstep http://gnustep.org/ [gnustep.org]
It's got a long way to go, but eventually, they intend to make .apps from OSX run natively. Remember mac OSX is really NeXTstep 5 (or something).
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Re:I've been wondering.. (Score:5, Informative)
The reason is that Mac software works completely differently. The POSIX syscalls are the same, but almost everything in between is completely different. Not like Toyota-Ferrari, different, we're talking Schwinn-Ferrari different.
The Win32 API that Wine implements is a C API, so a clean version can be written from scratch by anyone who knows C and takes the time to do it. Lots of potential users there.
The Cocoa APIs of Mac OS X are written in Objective-C, a language which few people know. They are more expansive than the Win32 API, and since they are object-oriented the specification is quite a bit more complex.
There is a Free sort-of-implementation called GNUStep, which actually conforms to the earlier OPENSTEP specification, plus their own add-ons. The GNUStep people now make tracking changes to Cocoa a priority, so there is source compatibility, and there is something called Renaissance which allows users to create use a single file for user interface design.
However, I don't think GNUStep is binary compatible, even if it's built on top of Darwin and running on identical hardware. But if it's binary compatibility you want, the GNUStep codebase is the best place to start (just watch out for lawyers).
An interesting note, even though the two are binary compatible, because NeXT/OPEN/GNUStep/Cocoa applications are actually directories of multiple files, it's theoretically possible to have one single build that could handle either API, on a variety of architectures.
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Astonishing indeed! (Score:5, Insightful)
While those numbers are not astonishing
Not astonishing? A single company, offering a proprietary product*, is outdoing nearly all of several hundred companies combined who build to a given standard! Astonishing indeed!
* - including hardware, OS, and a broad range of application software
"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Interesting)
Because it has reached double digit
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Re:"Magic 10%" (Score:5, Funny)
10% is the glass ceiling for Apple marketshare. It is estimated that roughly 10% of the population is gay; beyond that, Apple is going to face an uphill battle.
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Reaching corollary (Score:5, Interesting)
Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?
Wow, talk about a strange corollary. Linux desktop adoption has nothing at all to do with Mac market share. It would have been just as valid to write, "Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that lead a surge in kitten adoptions?"
Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.
Re:Reaching corollary (Score:5, Funny)
Personally, though, adopt a cat anyway.
Whoa, there. Why would we want to adopt a pet which loathes our existence no matter how much good we do for it? I mean, come on. That's like having a really cranky girlfriend/wife without the sex! Or a teenager. Neither of which is something you want.
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Re:Reaching corollary (Score:5, Funny)
Whoa, there. Why would we want to adopt a pet which loathes our existence no matter how much good we do for it?
Sound like you need The Engineer's Guide to Cats... [youtube.com]
...and if you still can't stand them, there's a simple method to make a cat sound like a dog:
1. Douse cat in gasoline.
2. Flick a lit match at the cat, and presto:
3. It goes "*WOOF!*"
Thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitresses and bartenders, and please.... try the fish.
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This is total FUD (Score:5, Funny)
If TV and the movies have taught me anything, it's that at least 90% of the computers and laptops out there are Apples. Hell, even alien civilizations use Macs on their motherships.
Vista: Unix's MVP (Score:5, Insightful)
Normal people using macs now? (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of the Mac owners I know are normal people. Either students that got an imac laptop from their school, older people who wanted an easy to use computer, or an artist (musician, photographer, graphic designer, etc.) who wanted a powerful machine that wouldn't get infected with a ton of spyware and viruses in a week.
None of the Mac owners I know (besides myself) are very tech savvy, they just know that their iPod works great, their PC is always infected with "viruses" (usually some spyware they installed cause it promised free smileys), and their friend's Mac never has any problems. Personally I didn't buy a Mac just for a different OS. If I want to toy around in something other than Windows, I just go install Linux on whatever old computers are lying around the house. I bought the Mac specifically for Aperture, and Final Cut Pro since I do a lot of photography and video work. I know there exists open source software or expensive Windows software to do that stuff, it's just none of it is as powerful or easy to use as the Mac versions. I don't need Mac OS to have a stable computer, I just like the software that exists for the Mac.
Why would OSX increase linux sales? (Score:5, Interesting)
I use linux/*nix all day long at work, and I have a mac at home, yet there's very few things that I use on OSX that are *nix related. Maybe running 'top' is about it, and that's a rarity. I picked OSX because of the applications and how they are all integrated in with each other, pure and simple. My laptop at work is a company provided XP system and while not having the polish/eye candy that OSX has, it gets the job done.
When linux distros have the same ease of use, smooth upgrades and most importantly application integration (with each other AND the OS), then I can see people like myself thinking about saving a few bucks and going with Linux instead.
I assume that when I buy a dishwasher, the interface is intuitive and it just works, why should we treat computers any differently?
Confirmed: (Score:5, Funny)
2008 will be the year of OS X on the desktop! :-)
The Wireless Barrier (Score:5, Insightful)
Until Linux wireless is brain dead easy, the answer is NO.
Never enough market share if you're in 2nd place (Score:5, Insightful)
"Will the pearly gates of acceptance open up for them once they reach the magic 10%, and will that have a positive effect on desktop Linux adoption?"
Absolutely not.
Some of you may recall that, back in the late 1980s, the Mac's market share was about 18%. For a period of time lasting into the mid-1990s, Apple was the #1 maker of PCs (IBM, Compaq and Dell rounded out the top 4; HP, Packard Bell, Gateway and a few others fought over the scraps).
If you take into consideration the fact that Macs lasted longer than PCs in those days and Mac users tended to buy more software (claims supported by numerous published Gartner studies), you could make a fair argument that Macs represented as much as perhaps a third of the total installed base and of the potential software market.
This was not seen as sufficient. Throughout the entire mid-80s through late-90s, the PC press maintained a steady drum-beat of, "Apple doesn't have enough market share to survive." Of course Apple's not going to make it if the press keeps telling everyone they can't! Combine this with some of Apple's strategic management blunders, and you have a perfect recipe for also-ran status.
Not that any of this is necessary to ensure Windows' continued market dominance. Most businesses are going to use what other businesses in their industry use. Most people are going to buy for home use what they are comfortable with at work. Windows' prevalence is its own best selling feature. This is why Microsoft enjoys a "natural monopoly", and why it will take a bigger disruptive market force than anything we've seen so far in the past 20+ years to change it.
As opposed to... (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to Microsoft's "do it our way or the highway" approach to computing?
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Re:The ACTUAL choice is . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never known anyone to buy their first Apple desktop or laptop without trying it out first. Surely they notice the interface is different.
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Are you living in 1992? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple has seen these numbers before. They're currently on a crest, but they'll sink and rise again. They have an upper limit of around 10-15% market share. They've made it quite clear that they don't *want* any more than that, and aren't interested in meeting the needs of the rest of the market.
I've got my share of -1 postings from ripping Apple but on this you are off base. I think thi would have been true in 1992 but it is certainly not true today. It's a completely different world out there. Personal computers running Windows have become corporate computing appliances, not personal ones, where Apple has doggedly focused on being a personal computer and is imaginatively building a software, service, and shopping stack designed to build a premium consumer brand.
If they decoupled their anaemic hardware offerings from their OS, they could see double digit growth yearly, but failing that they'll stay right where they've always been.
Apple has double digit growth yearly. Apple stock is kicking total butt right now in a stock market that sucks. I wish I would have bought them a couple of years ago when Jobs first came back... I'd be retired!
Secondly, Apple hardware is hardly anemic. Apple's new PowerMac, for example, is the latest Harperton Xeon and while it might be a tad pricier than the equivalent from the likes of Dell, I guarantee you that the entire service experience, from Apple store to home, is very, very good.
Christ, I'm talking myself into buying a Macintosh... and that's the thing about Apple - you walk into the store, and it reflects the sort of perfection that Americans expect from products.. indeed, Apple has gone beyond even Japanese cars when it comes to the detail of their products...
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Re:Magical number (Score:5, Funny)
Magic isn't supposed to be logical. That's why it's magic. If it was logical it'd be something else. But not magic.
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