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Woz Still Misses Homebrew Computer Club and Apple
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Oct 19, 2007 06:32 PM
from the enjoy-a-good-thing-while-you-have-it dept.
from the enjoy-a-good-thing-while-you-have-it dept.
UtahSaint writes "The Electronic Design site has nabbed a short interview with the Woz, where he waxes poetically about his time growing up as an Engineer and founding Apple. Even to this day, he says, he still misses the Homebrew Computer Club and his days running around Apple leading the technical teams. 'I miss the technical camaraderie ... The whole feeling of being on a revolution, on the edge. I miss the intuitive philosophies.'"
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Submission: Woz Still Misses Homebrew Computer Club and Apple by Anonymous Coward
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Nostalgia isn't what it used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nostalgia isn't what it used to be... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nostalgia isn't what it used to be... (Score:4, Insightful)
There are companies out there that will sell a $100 'embedded PC' with an x86 400MHz cpu, vga output, ps2/usb ports, 10/100 networking, and even 2.1 sound. It will even run linux just fine; you can surf the web, do email.
So apparently your "$300 PC" is some sort of overpriced premium unit that only a sucker would buy? With its 2GHz celeron and 5.1 sound, and premium intel "extreme" graphics chip. Slow down big spender!
A few minutes ago you implied it was good value, but I all I know is that its 3x the price. I don't care if it doesn't have all the features yours does, which BTW I might not need. I install linux on it and I have all I need. How can you convince me that a $300 Dell isn't some sort of premium expensive product?
The point is the Mac, when compared to an EQUIVALENT PC is not really more expensive. If you are going to insist on comparing the Mac to a PC that can't do half the stuff sure, its 'more expensive' but that doesn't make Mac's more expensive than PCs.
By that logic, $300PCs are over priced because I can buy an embedded unit for $100 that does everything I need. And someone out there, will say THAT's over priced because all they "need" is to do multiplacation and it turns out a notepad and a calculator does everything they need for a fraction of the price.
So are dell $300 PCs overpriced premium deluxe units because some twit decided to compare it to a pocket calculator?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And those same machines are priced very nearly the same.
Re:Nostalgia isn't what it used to be... (Score:5, Insightful)
No. But that doesn't make Mac's more expensive.
Apple makes gold rings. Dell makes gold rings and silver rings. If Dell's gold rings and Apple's gold rings are the same price, then Apple is not 'more expensive' than Dell.
Its true that gold rings are more expensive than silver. And its true that a lot of people buy silver because they can't afford gold. But its misleading to say that Apple is more expensive than Dell when you are comparing Apple's gold to Dell's silver.
If you can afford Dell's gold, you can afford Apple's. They are pretty much the same price. If all you can afford is silver, its not that *Macs* are "more expensive" its that GOLD is "more expensive". And you aren't in the market for gold, period, regardless of whether its Apple's gold or Dell's gold.
Parent
Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
I was hoping this was true the last time I needed to buy a new laptop.
I compared top of the line offerings from Apple and IBM/Lenovo. Note that I'm not comparing Apples to cheap ass PCs, that would be all too easy. Thinkpads are the gold standard for x86 laptops.
Here's what I got:
Thinkpad T61
15.4" LCD, 1680x1050
2.2gHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2 gigs of ram
100gb 7200rpm drive
dvd recorder
integrated wireless and bluetooth
That comes to.... $1458.
(Seriously, check it out on lenovo.com)
Now let's go to Apple. Surely this machine is at the level of the MacBook Pro. MBPro STARTS at 2 grand, same processor/ram, though 20GB extra hard drive (at a blazing 5400rpm). And I'm stuck at 1440x900 on the screen, not to mention stuck with a crappy ass keyboard that can't hold a candle to the venerated thinkpad keyboard.
Now, it's true that I could add a 20" LCD with a lightning fast 16ms response time for.. SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS?! What the.. I just picked up this Samsung 20 incher, 2ms response, for under two hundred.
The dream that Macs can be price comparable to PCs will probably never come true.
Parent
Wrong, mr. wrong (Score:5, Interesting)
I went to Lenovo.com and priced out a ThinkPad T61p 15 inch widescreen with the following specs:
Intel® Core(TM) 2 Duo T7500 (2.2GHz 800MHz 4MBL2)
Genuine Windows Vista Ultimate (discuss: an uncrippled Windows comparable to OS X 10.5)
15.4 WSXGA+ TFT
NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB Open GL)
2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory
160GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim (MBP has this standard)
PC Card Slot & Smart Card Slot
Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG
Integrated Bluetooth PAN
9 cell Li-Ion Battery (standard on MBP)
Microsoft Office Small Business 2007
Total cost: $2,252.00
Macbook Pro specs:
Same RAM.
Same HD.
Standard display is slightly lower rez, but comes in glossy coat optionally.
iWork preinstalled. (equivalent to Office Pro suite more or less... discuss)
Better power connector (MagSafe) standard.
Wireless and bluetooth 2.0+EDR standard.
DVDR drive standard.
ADMITTEDLY- Standard graphics card (NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics with 128MB SDRAM) has half the RAM of standard graphics card on Lenovo (NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB Open GL)).
Total cost: $2,303.00
Competitive advantages of each machine:
Lenovo: Slightly better standard graphics. UltraNav pointing device (if that's your style... I hate the pencil eraser). Slightly higher-rez screen. Spill-resistant keyboard. Media card reader standard. Swappable drive/battery bays. Can easily configure as a crippled machine in order to justify anti-Macbook Pro pricing policy trolling.
MBP: MagSafe power adapter. Battery indicator on battery. Backlit keyboard standard. Integrated iSight and mic for videoconferencing (!). Firewire, Firewire2, DVI ports standard. Digital audio out standard. And countless intangibles that I cannot list here- here's one- connecting to wireless networks on Windows is always annoying, on OS X never is.
Either machine runs Linux. With the Lenovo, you are stuck with the old, crusty, annoying, virus and spyware infested, administration-time-consuming Windows. With the Apple, you get the hip and fresh OS X that is a joy to use, has low maintenance, is secure, and will go out of its way to not annoy you. And is prettier. Plus, you get to run Windows at full speed... if you must.
With a 50 dollar price difference and some comparable individual features, I challenge anyone to say this isn't a wash. Finally, for the ability to run any operating system it damn well pleases you to run, I think only stubborn idiots won't pick a Macbook Pro.
So STFU and go back in your hole. I'm tired of your type.
Parent
Don't forget a key metric for portables (Score:3, Insightful)
ThinkPad T61p:
14.1 x 10.0 x 1.4 inches
6.2 pounds
MacBook Pro:
14.1 x 9.6 x 1.0 inches
5.4 pounds
That's around 2/3 the thickness, a little shallower, and nearly a pound lighter. If you can't acknowledge that's worth a premium, explain the pricing of subnotebooks to me.
(No, not the "you" to whom I am replying, but "you" the reader.)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hate to disappoint you but my 750 was still working fine last year. The Thinkpad 750 was discontinued in 1994.
Meanwhile my Powerbook G4 800MHz has been acting flaky since about a year after I bought it (if it has to do a lot of work, it overheats and tends to crash shortly thereafter), and the hinge broke last year.
Anecdotal evidence is great, huh? If only Commodore were still alive, my Amiga 500+ still works great!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
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I don't think Woz cared that much about rising higher into management for fame and fortune. He's more like *us* in that regard.
I wonder if he waxes poetic about Steve Jobs (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I wonder if he waxes poetic about Steve Jobs (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone at Atari told Jobs that he would get a $5000 bonus if they could get optimize the breakout machine to use fewer than X parts. He then went to Wozniak and told him that they would get a $2000 bonus that they could split 50:50. Wozniak did most of the work and took his $1000. 10 years and a company founding later, Wozniak finally found out that Jobs both lied to him and shortchanged him. As he and Jobs hadn't exactly seen eye to eye recently, this finally pushed him over the edge and this is why he left Apple.
See no arbitrary 7%, no rubbish about reneging on an agreement, less "Troll"y.
Parent
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What Woz... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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They're the Kirk and Scotty of the PC world. The Hannibal and B.A. Baracus.
Mybe he could find that in open source... (Score:3, Insightful)
The homebrew computer club was pretty close to the current Open Hardware movement.
Re:Mybe he could find that in open source... (Score:4, Informative)
Quoth Woz in the the article you refrenced:
"There's always a group of people that wants to undo the forces of industry that have given us so much in terms of wealth, and there's always people who want things to be free,"
It sounds to me like he loves the idea of open source itself, and just takes issue with a lot of the other ideologies that are lumped in with it these days (anti-capitalism, the "free" software movement, etc). That sounds pretty reasonable to me, and certainly isn't "totally trashing [open source]".
Parent
SuperHappyDevHouse (Score:5, Interesting)
I've talked to someone who used to attend Homebrew Computer Club. He says that SuperHappyDevHouse has a similar feel. Among differences: There was only one electrical outlet in the space used for Homebrew Computer Club - Woz supposedly monopolized that outlet. And people couldn't bring computers to Homebrew like they can (and are encouraged to) at SuperHappyDevHouse.
Re:SuperHappyDevHouse (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Not the same world anymore (Score:4, Insightful)
For an example, the S-100 based computers definitely were in the professional segment, and yet a lot of hardware accessories existed, designed and produced by small workshops.
Fast forward to today: what can an individual do, today? Electronic components are integrated to the point that you can't even assemble them without special and very expensive equipment, not to talk about the motherboards. Not to talk about the difficulties of prototyping. The bar to entry has been set incredibly high. So high, in fact, that the world of microprocessor architectures has significantly shrunk, and basically the only computer designed, produced and sold is based on an intel processor.
It's a word where only multimillion dollar corporations can implement visionary ideas - but them being corporations, it's an idea that usually doesn't excite the developers, only the product managers. It has to be profitable, that's the only relevant angle. In this world, the ideals Wozniak is after, are dead.
Re:Not the same world anymore (Score:5, Insightful)
My first computer was an IMSAI 8080 [imsai.net]. I built it from the kit, as well as the Lear Siegler ADM-3A [old-computers.com] terminal I connected to it. This was in 1976, and I, too, miss those days. While we can do some cool stuff today with 3-D graphics, multithreaded and multiprocessing operating systems, networks, etc., there was still something about building everything from scratch.
I'm with Woz on this one.
Parent
Re:Not the same world anymore (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, the barriers to entry are high if you want to mess with FPGAs or do microwave engineering in your garage, but at least it's possible for you to do that kind of thing if you want. There are probably a hundred times more opportunities open to the hardcore amateur electronics buff nowadays than there were in Woz's day. You can bitch and moan all you want about how "hard" it is, but I can remember when a 6502 was a pretty intimidating thing to deal with, too.
Parent
You can do more, but have to know more (Score:5, Insightful)
It's actually possible to do far more with electronics at home today than in the 1970s. But the amount of information you need to do it is much greater.
If you want to play with microcontrollers at the bare machine level, you can get something modern, like an ATMega 128. The entire tool chain, which is gcc plus a rather nice interactive development environment from Atmel, is all free. Development boards with lights, buttons, and a little LCD display are about $55. The only extras you need are a 12VDC power supply and a JTAG to serial converter.
If you want to have PC boards made, it costs about $50 to $75 to have a small one made. Free design software is available. This is all much easier than it used to be; no more mailing transparent films around. You just upload the files. They even drill the holes and plate them through.
Soldering, though, is much harder than it used to be. Soldering fine-pitch surface mount parts requires special tools, which aren't cheap, and much skill. And there are harder parts, like ball grid arrays. Worse, soldering is going lead-free. This is good for health, but means a narrower temperature range between the temperatures for successful soldering and part damage. Soldering is now a temperature and time controlled process. It can be done by hand, and there are hobbyists who do it, but it takes practice, skill, good vision, and good fine motor coordination.
Getting parts is far easier. Everybody serious uses Digi-Key. They have data sheets on line for most of the parts they sell, reliably ship within hours of ordering, and will let you order one each of fifty different small parts. But if you don't know much about electronics, the Digi-Key web site and catalog will be very intimidating.
The real problem with hobbyist electronics today is that expectations are so high. In the 1970s, you could build stuff cooler than other people could buy. Today, consumer electronics is so sophisticated that there's little hope of beating what somebody can buy at Best Buy. The payoff isn't there.
Parent
Two words for you... (Score:4, Informative)
and
2) Software (on network-connected rather powerful boxes).
You go second route, you can become the next Google (well, become => become part of
Paul B.
Parent
If you miss it, do it again? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is that really the case? Like Woz is a high profile technical multimillionaire, an inspiration to an entire generation of geeks, and he misses the thrill of being on a revolution and can't figure out how to recreate it?
If that's really the case. I mean, if he really and truly misses it, why not just contact pretty much anyone over the age of 30 in any field he wants:
"Hi, my name is Steve Wozniak" //e! How's it going?!?"
"Holy shit! I know you! I learned assembly language on an Apple
"Not bad, I really like the stuff you do. Do you mind if I come to work and hang out and be a technical comrade?"
"Shit no! Christ, it would be an honor."
"You don't have to pay me, I mean, I'm a multimillionaire."
"No, that's cool, come on over."
Maybe I'm oversimplifying. But I personally am not a multimillionaire, and I know a lot of people, and I have literally done jobs for $0 just to hang out at places and work with cool people.
Make the world what you want. It seems that this is especially easy advice to give to someone who is financially independent.
The next tech revolution (Score:4, Interesting)
I was a teenager back in the early microcomputer days and built one of first kit machines, an IMSAI 8080. It was great fun and more educational than any number of college course I took thereafter.
Those days are long gone now. But could something similar return? I think that the next tech revolution has already started, and it's the hacker's auto fabrication machine ("fabber").
Example: http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome [reprap.org]
Right now these aren't much more than 3-D printers that squeeze out plastic goop under computer control. But if the rate of progress of this field is anything like that seen with microcomputers, then small scale manufacturing will be totally changed in a few years. Who will be the Woz (and the Jobs and the Gates) of this new endeavor? Maybe they're already out there, but we just haven't heard of them yet.
Wozniak Is Sad Because Google Rejected Him (Score:4, Funny)
Remembering Homebrew Computer Club (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, as mentioned earlier, the Apple I did tie up the only electrical outlet in the front doorway. If memory serves me correctly, Apple Basic didn't come in until Apple II's. It was a video octal/hex debug tool in the Apple I. Indeed, I remember wooden sides and a plexiglass top panel, so you could see the motherboard.
Many of us were interested in the 8080/Z80 systems of the Altair/Imsai/etc/etc/ systems. Indeed, I was there when the club coined the term S100 bus. My little piece of history. A "big" system had 16K RAM, usually an audio cassette mass storage device, an old RS232 terminal (mine was first a Textronics, later a Lear Sigler ADM3, which I still have in my garage and still has the best keyboard "feel" that I have ever run across). If you were real lucky you had one or more floppy disk drives (8 inch Sugarts were favorites). CP/M was the "big time" operating system of choice. The Apple was more of an "interesting" device, not mainstream for the hobby at that time. The 6502 was certianly cheap enough!
I can still find some of the camaraderie at the local Linux UG (LUG). However, I don't find the "rough edges" and cutting edge technology. Really, it was more of "damn, I wonder if this will work" rather than some "intuitive philosophies". Smoke was not your friend then as it still isn't your friend today, but you sure saw a lot more of it in those days...... Our LUG still has the geeks show up and we have interesting lectures, but even the open source stuff is getting pretty cut and dried, relatively speaking.
The internet is great for technical correspondence and "group" software projects, and althoug h we have worldwide contributers, we can't all go to the meeting, then to pizza and beer afterwards.
So yeah, I agree with Woz. I'm typing with my peep, not chillin' with my peep.
Cheers!
The old saying.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:WOZ I want to build my own mac like you can wit (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
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Or, rather, by IBM and a certain other company [microsoft.com], the fact that they've obliterated it (and Xenix) from their annoyingly Flash-ridden history [microsoft.com] (unless I missed it) nonwithstanding.
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Here ya go, Woz. [apple.com]
Makes me fuzzy thinking about the possibilities.
Text without forced ad delay (Score:3, Interesting)
[Technology Report]
Wizard Of Woz Keeps Casting His Spells
What would you do after founding a technology giant? Steve wozniak Uses those resources to keep innovating and following his creative impulses.
John Arkontaky | ED Online ID #17186 | October 19, 2007
Article Rating: Not Rated
For many, "Vice President in charge of R&D" sounds like a good job - reputable, good pay, and maybe even exciting. But tack the word
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One hit wonder (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
One hit wonder - you're kidding, right? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are engineers, mechanics, designers, inventors and scientists. And then there are those who have such a deep understanding of how the world around us works, who combine multiple disciplines in such a way that they can see things that normal people can't. Richard Feynmann was one of these people. So is Steve Wozniak.
Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak changed the world. The computer revolution would have taken much, much longer without those two. Steve Jobs, in addition to his marketing skills, was truly a technician and scientist in his own right. Not nearly in the same league as Woz, but he knew enough to help do what had to be done from a physical design and assembly standpoint. Woz couldn't sell ideas very well, back then. The teamup of Wozniak and Jobs created something unique, a whole that was far greater than the sum of its parts, but that shouldn't take away from the brilliance of both of these men.
Wozniak has also been a teacher, a concert promoter (!) and Lord knows what else since leaving Apple. He prefers to work a lot with children now, trying to teach them how to solve logical problems. There's no way to know now, but I would not be surprised a bit if in the distant future some great inventor / engineer / scientist or even politician is going to say that once upon a time they started to learn how to truly think logically because they had the gift of listening to Woz lecture at his school.
Saying that Woz is a "one-hit wonder" does nothing but display total ignorance of what the man has truly accomplished. Creating Apple the way he did was great, and would not have happened nearly as soon if he hadn't existed, but perhaps the this brillian yet simple man's ultimate legacy has yet to be written, for we may never know the true benefits of the work he has done with children.
Parent
One in a Hundred Thousand? (Score:3, Insightful)
One in a hundred thousand means there are approximately 60,000 people on the planet who understand those topics as well or better than him. Hardly unique, which is the point of the original commenter.
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As amazing as Woz's achievements were, and they truly were, he needed Jobs more than Jobs needed him. Without both of them there would be no Apple, but Jobs would have gone on to find some other venture. He was pretty much guaranteed to be su
Re:One hit wonder - you're kidding, right? (Score:5, Interesting)
History is written by the winners, and marketers, I guess.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diminish Woz, he was definitely in a class all his own, with that brilliant floppy drive and all the early software he wrote, but it's important not to forget who's processor he used.
Like the television, no single person or company invented the PC.
Parent
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This, I think was his biggest engineering accomplishment. He was good enough to design a cheap, elegant floppy interface. He in fact beat Commodore to it despite Commodore having much more financial re
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Re:One hit wonder (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no great love of Jobs, but let's be serious. If Woz was the boss of Apple, the company wouldn't exist any more.
Parent
Re:One hit wonder (Score:4, Informative)
Dozens of people created the PC as we know it.
Steve Wozniac stood on Chuck Peddle's shoulders. The 6502 was cheap enough to make a cheap enough PC.
Although I think the GP was a little critical, I can see where someone might get annoyed enough to post like that. The PC arrived through a large complex evolution of many peoples innovations, and I don't even think Steve, engineering wise, was the most important one of that bunch.
Parent