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Apple and LG plan Flash Laptops
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:20 AM
from the what-are-you-wearing-under-there dept.
from the what-are-you-wearing-under-there dept.
Lucas123 writes "An article in Computerworld
states that Apple and LG each plan to launch new laptops — one that's supposed to ship this month — with hybrid disk drives. The new drives are like hybrid cars in that the NAND flash memory works in conjunction with the spinning disk, kicking in data that can be cached like portions of the operating system, which can make for much faster boot up and resume times."
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Sweet (Score:5, Funny)
Let me be the first to say:
<borat>Nice</borat>
Re: (Score:2)
I mean to that totally static solid state 10 ns 100G storage device...
It's a pity that we have to go through all the intermediary stages before getting
to the 'real thing', but for now we'll just have to settle for the next step.
Anybody remember bubble memory ?
Re:We've already got one! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
OK Sure (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=1
Re:OK Sure (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:OK Sure (Score:5, Funny)
I think that term is reserved for the ones already using Sony batteries.
Parent
Re:OK Sure (Score:5, Informative)
No. [eweek.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:OK Sure (Score:5, Insightful)
I won't comment on OSX's paging, other than it needs a bit of refining as it tends to be over agressive.
However, I think Apple's initial plans are to use the Flash on these drives as more of a Read area for portions of OSX that are accessed at startup or frequently.
As for the lifespan of Flash, if the device or OS is smart enough to not use the same bits over and over and distributes the writes intelligently(Since areas of Flash are fairly equal in speed), then the lower end bits won't get any more use than the top end of the cache, and in theory the flash should last as long as the HD platters. There are also techniques to extend Flash usage by what bits are used and when, so the limited writes are extended beyond just linear write lifespans of the Flash.
Remember the HD Mfrs are not stupid about caching or Flash limits, so this is stuff that people a lot smarter than the average SlashDot reader has already considered and worked around.
Parent
Re:OK Sure (Score:5, Funny)
I hear they're also taller than the average midget...
Parent
Mac ROM returneth? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Mac ROM returneth? (Score:4, Insightful)
So - 'no'.
Parent
drives are like hybrid cars (Score:5, Insightful)
The word "hybrid" has a meaning outside automobiles. Originally it was a biological term.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, we have a few of those posting around these parts...
Re:drives are like hybrid cars (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:drives are like hybrid cars (Score:5, Informative)
It's actually not a bad analogy.
The only thing stranger than all of the car analogies is the impassioned resistance that they invoke.
Parent
Re:drives are like hybrid cars (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you like it if car people make idiotic computer analogies all the time?
"Well, I increased the CFMs of my carburetor, which is like doubling your ram. And then I added a second fuel tank, which is like adding another hard disk."
But seriously the reason that people like me resist it so strongly is that most of them are just fucking stupid. This one is less stupid than most but it's still not a very good fit. In fact, it's not all that analogous which is why I resist the analogy. But I didn't rail against it for the reason that you state; this is probably one of the best car analogies that's been used on slashdot recently :)
Parent
Re:drives are like hybrid cars (Score:5, Funny)
Ooh! Let me try...
I upgraded to Vista, which is like kicking myself in the balls.I started playing World of Warcraft, which is like smoking crack (but less socially acceptable).
Parent
Re:drives are like hybrid cars (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree that car analogies can be forced and bad, but this one is actually pretty good.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Damn you!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You've never owned a British car then, I take it.
fucking analogy (Score:2, Insightful)
Add more ram and make smarter bootup sequences (Score:4, Interesting)
Putting the laptop in suspend mode throughout the day (instead of hibernate or off) can also lighten the load on the disk/battery. Bonus points would be for flushing the read cache, compressing the in use memory and turning off as many memory banks as possible during suspend. (I know that's not trivial hence the bonus points).
Tom
Re:Add more ram and make smarter bootup sequences (Score:5, Informative)
Not if your hard drive is switched off (remember this is laptops we are talking about). It takes quite a while and a lot of power for a hard drive to spin up. You can get data from a flash chip within micro secs of switching it on.
Writing to flash takes power, leaving the flash on [so you can access it] takes power.
The whole point with flash is that you do not need to leave it on. Once the data is written to it, you can switch it off until the data is needed. RAM needs to have some power (though not much when in standby) to keep the data in it active.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I just don't see the whole "it's a cache" thing working too well.
Tom
hybrid (Score:5, Funny)
So they get 50mpg?
Re: (Score:2)
Or they don't provide anywhere near the improvement the specs claim.
Question (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds to me like the life expentancy of one of these would be greatly diminished over a conventional HDD.
Has flash technology advanced to the point that the limited write cycle thing isn't an issue, or do they just expect you to replace it every few months to a year (depending on how much you use it)?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If you put
I've been running several servers off of flash drives for about six months, and they are all working beautifully.
Windows, on the other hand, would blow a flash drive quickly due to all th
Re:Question (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, they do eventually die. No, they won't die dramatically younger than a hard drive. Modern flash uses wear-levelling algorithms, so that no particular bad block will kill the whole flash drive. It'll just make a small block inaccessible when it finally dies, which won't happen very often. OTOH, when a head decides to dig into your constantly spinning mechanical platter and make a noise that makes you feel sick... Well, there just isn't any algorithm fix for that.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
More reliable
Faster reads
easy to integrate (looks like an sram)
able to execute code directly from NOR Flash (looks like an sram)
more expensive
NAND Flash:
Faster writes
PITA to integrate (requires separate controller chip)
Slower reads
Inability to directly execute code, must DL to real ram to execute.
less reliable
higher density
cheap
-nB
Miniature version of MacOS X? (Score:2)
If these disks make a MacBook use less battery power, great. But I don't see why the world needs a miniature version of MacOS X.
Re:Miniature version of MacOS X? (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the day, Apple used to ship Macs with a copy of pre-OS X, Mac OS on a ROM. It was basically unused, but it did have the advantage that if your hard drive went down or an extension to the OS was making your system unbootable, you could always boot from the ROM and at least do a hardware check to see if your problem was hardware or software related. Apple could re-introduce this feature using Flash memory, although I'm not convinced it is really worth their time.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Which macs are these?
I've never seen one.
The only Apple systems I've ever known to include an operating system (such as it was) in ROM were the Apple ][ series. Macintoshes include functions in ROM, but it's not a complete OS. Amiga used the same approach, only moreso - to the point where an OS upgrade mandated a ROM upgrade.
I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I've never even heard of such a thing and every Mac I've ever p
Read Cache is not the point! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Sub-notebook (Score:2)
Makes good sense, sub-notebooks have a premium on low power consumption / long battery life (more so than ordinary laptops).
I don't think that this IS the time... (Score:3, Interesting)
FTFA:
Wu, who was among the first analysts to forecast the unveiling of Apple's iPhone music player/phone earlier this year, cited unnamed industry sources as the basis for his report.
"The time is right for the flash makers to make a move" as flash memory prices decline, Wu said by telephone. "Apple, from what we understand, is pretty much ready. The ball is in the flash vendors' court."
What do you mean Apple is pretty much ready? To replace a rotating disk with a SSD? I have news for you, that doesn't take much.
But seriously, I think that this is precisely the WRONG time to do this. Intel's PRAM is on its way. MRAM has finally seen some commercial use (in smaller quantities) and may be more available soon. Flash RAM is crap by comparison to either technology except for its availability and the wait for one or the other to actually become available should not be very long.
Such a device will be markedly expensive, so adopters will be few. It's an expensive way to get practice working in a particular market segment.
Real purpose (Score:2, Funny)
Rumors, Analysts, and Apple (Score:4, Interesting)
First, rumor has it is all this is. An analyst put it in a report and everyone is passing it on a valid. Especially with Apple folks should know that rumors & speculation are just that.
Next it was widely reported a few years ago when Apple made a huuuge futures purchase on flash memory getting an excellent price and assuring their supply. Someone more motivated then I can crunch the numbers but even with however many million iPods sold I'm guessing Apple still has flash memory to play with and a decent price.
Then there's the non-US market. Yes, Americans want 21" screens, 6 speakers, 200 GB hard drives, and accept 30 minute battery life from their portables (oftentimes too big even for American laps). The rest of the world typically wants really small, really light, just enough computing enough power for on-the-road use, and 12 hour battery life. Thus an ultraportable will fill a huge hole in the Apple product line, one many posters to /. may not even be fully aware of.
With all of that in mind do I expect Apple will come out with some sort of clever new device that is small, robust, and runs for longer then others on the market? I wouldn't be surprised. Apple has innovated time & time again, particularly on laptops, and part of their market is remarkably price-insensitive (I've rarely heard "Get me the best Dell, whatever the price!", I've heard that regularly about Macs.) What starts at the top often soon moves down.
Finally, Apple still does largely design their own motherboards, owns their own OS, can implement a new technology without needing to coordinate it among many parties. But do I think J. Random Analyst is going to be all that insightful about Apple's hardware future? Not particularly, he's just an excuse to post another story about everyone's favorite conundrum.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Hey asshole, the US-bashing was completel
This is a good idea for laptops. (Score:3, Interesting)
this means much higher response lag whenever laptops have to page in/out (and the reason i opted to upgrade the ram on the laptop to as much as the desktop).
apply this to the entire apple line and you suddenly have a considerable performance edge over competitors (using the same software configurations).
apply it to desktops as well for extra power conservation and performance per watt as well (and with desktops you have a larger case to include more flash into the drive).
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Warranty? (Score:5, Funny)
The new drives are like hybrid cars in that the NAND flash memory works in conjunction with the spinning disk...
Oh...so that's how hybrid cars work...
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Windows or Linux is not limited in any way or inferior to OSX in this regard.
I think people are wanting instant on/off from hibernate with large amounts of RAM.
Even my old Toshiba from 2002 running XP will return from a hibernate (no power) in less than 2 secs, and will resume from standby (still powered) instantly. It has 768MB of RAM.
However my new laptop with 4GB takes almost 4 seconds to resume from a powered off hibernate state as it takes just
Re:What "resume" time? (Score:5, Interesting)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=225106&cid=18
Windows and even linux machines can have such a wide variety of hardware and all it takes is one bad driver to make sleep or suspend not work. Furthermore suspend2 for x86-64 doesn't come compiled in most distros of linux and you have to recompile the kernel to get it to work.
While your notebook may not have any problems with sleep it is probably the exception. Lots of windows boxes will sleep but when you bring them back up sound won't work or usb ports won't work. It's a pain.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Sounds to me like your Dell is set to "hibernate" (which actually powers off your computer after saving its "state") and not "standby" (Windows 2000's term for "sleep").
Hibernate saves the computer's state (including open programs) and memory contents to the hard drive, then powers off the computer. Coming out of hibernation powers on
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That hasn't been my experience though. My Powerbook (1.67GHz/1GB RAM) wakes up from sleep in a second, I login (locked screensaver) and I can start browsing the web via my Airport connection in under 3 seconds. On the other hand, my Windows desktop (AMD Athlon XP 2400+ on some MSI motherboard with 2GB of RAM) wakes up from S3 sleep in about 4 seconds to the lock screen, I login, and then I have to wait another 20-30 seconds for
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You may have noticed that hybrid flash/harddisk combinations are always mentioned in one breath with the "improvements" that Vista is promising, like faster boot times by using some Microsoft-only technology. And of course it is