Slashdot Log In
The Apple II At 30
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Jun 05, 2007 09:23 PM
from the hacker's-dream-and-appliance dept.
from the hacker's-dream-and-appliance dept.
turnitover sends us to eWEEK for an appreciation of the Apple II on the 30th anniversary of its shipping. An overview of the history of the Apple II puts it in context. A nice tidbit: how important the floppy drive was to sales. The article quotes Sellam Ismail, the proprietor of VintageTech, which maintains archives of computers, documents, and software: "You could think of the Apple II's importance on two levels — the Woz level and the Steve Jobs level." The former refers to its allure to hackers, and the latter to its appliance-like polish, a first for its time, There is also an interview with Woz, who says, "[A]t the start there were no computers in the home — we had to make the word computer compatible with homes."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
The first computer I owned (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The first computer I owned (Score:5, Insightful)
My Apple ][ was something that challenged and taught me.
Woz is brilliant and I spend countless hours pouring over the big red book with the fold out schematic of the Apple ][. Not only open source but open hardware too. The Apple ][ was fundamental in my development as a computer programmer.
Computers now have lost the special aspects of the Apple ][... simplicity and understandability.
--jeffk++
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Could have sworn TOS/GEM was largely written in PL/M, though obviously there was plenty of support for C programming. That said, the criticisms of the OS have to do with its sparse set of features (it was ultimately an updated version of CP/M, with features added from MSDOS, and with the Mac-like GEM front-end added), rather than how well documented it was.
The Apple lawsuits had no effect on Atari's GEM, which was effectively a fork Atari was responsible for. Digital Research had to cripple the PC versio
Re:The first computer I owned (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I'm no hardcore hacker (basic bash is as gritty as I get) but it's beautiful that the system is configured by a heap of text files and scripts.
Having said that -
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, UCSD p-code Pascal! :) (Score:4, Interesting)
Moscow, 1984, I think... (Hmm, interesting year...
Paul B.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Which meant that when we got a Z80 card in one machine and ran Turbo Pascal, which was just everything-in-one-place, it was like heaven.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
140K, or 280K if you made it a "flippy" and used the other side. (I should still have a notcher around here someplace...not a cheap single-hole punch, either, but the gadget that made a rectangular cutout in the right place.)
My DuoDisk was able to reliably seek over 38 tracks instead of the usual 35, so I had more than a few disks formatted that way for 152K per side. IIRC, you didn't even need to patch ProDOS; you just needed a disk formatter that would go be
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
BTW - Infocom games ran on a ZVM - Zip Virtual Machine. The small one was 128K of virtual memory runnable on a 32K Apple. We were able to go to a 256K V
1982 (Score:3, Insightful)
Framing thought around computing is the future, and it is platform independe
The Call That Changed a Life (Score:4, Insightful)
call -151
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The early manuals were wonderful (the clone I had came with a manual that was a copy of 3 apple manuals combined
At about 8 years old, I learnt BASIC and 6502 machine code (cycle counting etc) from just that manual and the Apple II clone. I still keep that manual around, and I think people shouldn't underestimate what children can learn given decent sources of in
What's changed in 30 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
In 1977, Apple Computer included the schematics for all of the motherboard and CPU design for the Apple ][.
In 2006, Apple Ceased & Desisted [macobserver.com] a site for merely linking to a service manual.
Please come back Woz, we miss you.
Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. Companies like MS & Apple seem to prefer buying out other companies & suing competitors rather than actually innovating.
We need some engineers like Woz back in positions of importance again....
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Means for survival? I think you mispelt enormous high-margin profit.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Problem is, the market is more about buying shiny things than being good, knowledgeable, customers.
For the clueless, good enough suffices.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGHty_S0TU0 [youtube.com]
Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:5, Interesting)
In 1977, Apple Computer included the schematics for all of the motherboard and CPU design for the Apple ][.
In 1935 your Grandad's Hallicrafters shortwave set came with a schematic. In 1965 your Dad's RCA Color TV did not. What begins as the private preserve of the technical hobbyist becomes domesticated and mass market.
Parent
Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:4, Informative)
My 1983 JVC VCR ($500 retail) came with schematics.
My 1989 19" Panasonic Stereo TV ($700 Retail) came with schematics.
My 2001) 43" Hitachi Projection HDTV (monitor 1080i/540p) has schematics available that I used to replace the convergence chips with.
It is true that most electronics - especially the Wal*Mart disposable type - do not have schematics. I was actually shocked that my 43" TV has them available for the public.
What I find offensive is that some appliance parts (refrigerator and dishwasher) from some manufacturers are not available to the general public - at least in my experience. I've read that some specialty ICs for TVs are only available to contract holders (repair shops) for said manufacturer.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I have. And I don't even have skills. But what I lack in skills I make up for in lack of money.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm guessing that the C&D has more to do with protecting their currently fragile channel sales and service m
Re: (Score:2)
I really wonder how you live with yourself now that Apple ships Bog-standard intel PCs.
Or are you one of those people who think it's not a PC because it has EFI?
Re:What's changed in 30 years? (Score:4, Informative)
Just to remind you... the IBM PC lived and died by its BIOS. Without a BIOS, it can't be an "IBM PC Compatible". The Mac used to live (and potentially die) by its ROM, but Apple wisely turned it into an intangible brand and got rid of that thing.
Parent
The D5 clip of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates is good.. (Score:4, Informative)
There are some clips on the "All things Digital" conference site, and I believe on iTunes as well.
Slots (Score:2, Funny)
Of course, the Apple ][ had seven (7) slots.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
RTFM = Best Evar.. BASIC, etc, etc (Score:5, Interesting)
There are so many layers and problems which todays desktop make difficult, and were easy back then. A much better introduction to computers couldn't be had.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Totally agree. I actually keep a set of Apple ][c manuals around on my bookshelf, as an example/reminder of what good technical writing (and illustrating!) is.
The authors of those manuals managed to take a subject that was completely and utterly foreign to many of their readers, and make it comprehe
uh huh (Score:3, Funny)
*duck*
Floppy Drive (Score:3, Interesting)
Good old times... (Score:4, Insightful)
After that, I had a MSX (I don't know if this japanese computer was famous in other countries, but here in brazil it was) with a single-sided drive, and some years later my first 386SX.
Today, you buy a computer, connect it to your 8Mb internet connection, download a 2Gb game in half an hour and play games that are almost real... You don't need to worry about tapes, typing, basic, anything. It's obviously better... But it's sad too. There's no fun anymore...
Yes, I know I'm getting old... But I really think that I was happy and I didn't knew...
And in production for almost 18 of those 30 years! (Score:3, Interesting)
Versions of the Apple II were still going strong when Linux and Windows 3.1 were released.
Retirement finally came shortly before Windows 95, but by that time software emulation had become more convenient.
SLM
Revisionist History? (Score:3, Interesting)
First, it claims that Apple greatly exaggerated sales figures. Apple was a distant 3rd in sales behind Commodore PET and TRS-80's until VisiCalc (first spreadsheet) arrived, which was written for Apple because the PET and TRS's were booked in the development shop. It was not chosen for technical reasons, but because it wasn't being used at the time.
Altough Apple beat PET on floppies, the floppy was so expensive that it didn't help Apple's sales volume much. Plus, PET had more stuff in ROM such that one didn't need external programs as much. Commodore was able to produce ROM much cheaper than Apple could get because they owned a major ROM company. (PET sold better in Europe than the US, so US'ers don't remember PETs as much. Still, it sold more than Apple until 1980 or 81.)
And, the Commodore-64 eventually beat the daylights out of Apple II as far as sales volume. It probably had far more impact on consumers than Apple. Apple exaggerates the power, influence, and abilities of the Apple II. The only thing that saved Apple as a company from the PC clones was they lucked into desktop publishing with the Mac. Had the Commodore Amiga captured that niche, Apple would perhaps be dead instead of Commodore now.
The book did give praise for Apple's clever marketers, but not its machines.
Re:Revisionist History? (Score:4, Insightful)
While the Mac was buoyed by the desktop publishing revolution, the Amiga did manage to capture a niche: video and graphics. Amiga computers are still used today by many video professionals. There is a Video Toaster sitting eight feet from me (and its PC successor, the VT[4], in the box I'm using right now). Unfortunately for Commodore, the potent Amiga / Toaster combo were way too far ahead of their time; home video was nowhere near reaching the mass market revolution that is going on right now. In those days, printing out really, really nice documents was something people could get their heads around, especially in the ugly reality of dot matrix printers and fanfold paper. These days, thanks mostly to good timing and savvy purchases, Apple all but owns the video and graphics niche as well.
Commodore failed simply because of horrible management, just like Atari. Hell, the Amiga never even should have been a Commodore product, it was designed by Jay Miner, the Atari engineer behind the Atari VCS and the Atari 400/800. Atari was offered the Amiga and payed for some of its development, and for some reason decided not to see it to completion. No doubt the same kind of idiocy that lead Atari to pass on the rights to the Nintendo Entertainment System. When Commodore slipped in and sneakily purchased the Amiga out from under them, a livid Jack Tramiel, president of Atari, (who founded Commodore and introduced the PET/VIC/C64 series and eventually got all pissy and left Commodore to purchase a money hemorrhaging Atari) sued Commodore and scrambled to slap together the Atari ST as a competitor, practically out of spite. Engineered in something like 6 months, while the Amiga languished in legal limbo, the Atari ST (dubbed by some, "the Jackinstosh") actually wasn't too bad (if quirky) and featured a single-tasking OS from Digital Research, the guys who passed on the IBM PC operating system allowing Microsoft to step in to save the day. While slightly faster than, and sharing the same CPU as the Amiga and the Mac, the Atari ST was nothing compared to the much more complex and amazing multi-tasking Amiga. The ST would eventually sport an inexpensive laser printer (two years after Apple) and the ability to run Mac and PC software better than the real thing. Atari tried to compete in desktop publishing, and some big name publishing software got their start on Atari, but Atari couldn't shed its gaming stigma and refused to spend the marketing dollars to correct that. Commodore didn't fare much better in the image department and didn't even bother to make a laser printer or try to compete with Mac at all it seems, although the Amiga outsold the Atari by a substantial margin. Maybe that's all they cared about. They later tried to get into the game console business with a dumbed down Amiga with a CD-ROM, but it was too late for Commodore and the faded away in all but the video realm. Atari eventually did find their niche in music thanks to built in MIDI and sequencer software like Cubase, and it is still used by a few musicians, although nothing like it was in its heyday.
Apple made it out almost by default because Atari and Commodore were so inept
Parent
I always thought the Apple lovers were wankers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re-release it! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Apple negotiated two 10 year licenses, and their reluctance to sign a third might have been a factor in ending the Apple II line.
(This isn't a problem for the Apple I, which is why kits are available with the approval of Apple and Woz.)
Apple II emulators are readily available though (the whole machine fits in one FPGA) and so are cheap used Apple II's.
I'd recommend a
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
http://artscene.textfiles.com/intros/APPLEII/ [textfiles.com]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Windows = Christian (Large userbase, heirarchical)
Linux = Buddhism (Smaller userbase, approaching state of Nirvana)
Mac = Islam
Looks like it's time again for:
Traeger's Law on Advocacy:
"1. Any form of advocacy will lead to an analogy (e.g. computer advocacy and car analogies). These analogies will usually suck.
2. There will be at least one reply a) claiming the opposite, b) offering a 'better' analogy, c) trying to further the analogy to all elements in the field, or d) taking the analogy into minute details. The resulting analogy will usually suck even more."
Examples:
1.
- Macs are like Mercedes, PCs like Fords.
- RISC is li
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As an atheist, I must ask by what means do you hope to achieve such a ban, let alone enforce it? Are you willing to be more tyrannical than Stalin?
Re:Zonk 1, 2, and 3 (Score:5, Insightful)
All those text-only Infocom games had the best graphics
SLM
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd have to say the most beautiful Apple II game was 1987's Airheart by Dan (Choplifter) Gorlin. This masterpiece was later ported to the Atari ST and Amiga as Typhoon Thompson [wikipedia.org]. Airheart took 3 years to write, and probably defines the limit of what a standard 8-bit Ap
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You think it's bad now, wait until you're in the workforce. EVERY week is finals week in the real world. *sigh*
Re:Again forgetting Commodore (Score:4, Informative)
Apple was good at deceptive commercials, like saying that the Apple II was the best-selling computer of all time, when both Commodore and especially Tandberg (with the TRS/80) outsold them plenty. It wasn't until VisiCalc that the Apple II became really popular, and then mainly in business. In the term of number of sold units Commodore beat everyone, first with the VIC-20 and then with the C64.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Claim 3 is wrong. Claims 1, 2, and 4 amount to the same thing, and they don't make the Apple II "more advanced", they just make it different. The simple fact that the TRS-80 had a 16x64 display, a better keyboard, and a more powerful processor made it so much more useful for real-world applications.
Woz me
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
LOL. Claim is indisputably correct [oldcomputers.net] and the fact that you don't know this leads me to believe you weren't even born when the Apple II was released. Not only could one program the Apple II in machine language, but Woz built a debugger and disassembler into the ROM to make it easier to do so.
The TRS-80 was limited ito 4K and 8K DRAM configurations, and the Apple II could be expanded to 48K DRAM on the motherboard and even more via the expandable slots (which the TRS-80 and PET lacked).
And
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure if the mutant bit appeared in the earlier manuals.