Microsoft To Release 'iPod Killer' at Christmas? 614
ShellFish writes "According to a report from Engadget, Microsoft is poised to finally take on the Apple iPod this holiday season. Tired of uninspiring offerings from its hardware partners, Microsoft is getting into the ring itself. The new media player from Microsoft will feature a bigger screen than the iPod Video, have built-in WiFi for downloading music without a PC, and Microsoft will work with music and TV content providers to build an iTunes Music Store competitor. In what may be the crucial competitive stroke, Microsoft will also allow you to download from its store any song that you've purchased from Apple, unlocking users from iPod's vendor lock-in."
Not only that... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not only that... (Score:2, Funny)
If you want something that's built to last, get an iPod.
Survey of High Schoolers: iPod not built to last (Score:5, Informative)
If you want something that's built to last, get an iPod.
Business Students at a local university surveyed a bunch of local high schools. They found that Apple scored low on reliability. Apple also scored low on features, the kids really thought the lack of AM/FM was a negative(*). However, iPod was the most common player. Apple did win on ease of use. Many iPod owners admitted they traded functionality/reliability for "status symbol"/fashion. The kids were fairly well informed since there was a lot of comparing and contrasting of the various players they had.
(*) I expect Apple has similar research of their own and it probably inspired the Radio Remote. I'd wager future models will have it built in.
Radio? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Radio? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Survey of High Schoolers: iPod not built to las (Score:3, Insightful)
When I was in high school, we listened to AM, not for music, but for sports. For example, it was very nice to have a radio broadcasting a big-league baseball game on AM, while playing softball, or at a picnic, or at the swimming pool, or whatever.
Re:Survey of High Schoolers: iPod not built to las (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Survey of High Schoolers: iPod not built to las (Score:5, Interesting)
These were part-tme MBA students (ie worknig professionals by day) who had taken statistics and maketing and were working under the supervision of a professor who has been hired by large corporation to do just such studies. Now this was a class project, not a corporate sponsord project, so it was small scale and regional (southern California) compared to an Apple sponsored study but it included interviews, questionaires, and focus groups. The results are not so easily dismissed. The sample size was significant, distributions, p-values, and other sanity checks on the data were good.
You object to students being the segment studied? Have you seen Apple's commercials? This is Apple's target market.
You fail to mention the players the iPod was compared to.
The survey covered needs, wants, perceptions, and customer satisfaction for whatever portable digital player were used. It was not an iPod study per se, iPod was just the most common player.
You say lack of AM/FM is seen as a negative. But is it a missing feature that would influence a significant amount of people's buying decisions?
It was a recurring missing "want". As stated in the original posts, the respondents said that they traded this want for the "status symbol" nature of the iPod.
"(*) I expect Apple has similar research of their own and it probably inspired the Radio Remote. I'd wager future models will have it built in." I'll take that bet. I don't think those things are flying off the shelves. Seems more like a specialty add-on for the small minority who want it to me.
The fact that Apple introduced such a product undermines your argument. If Apple's research showed it to be such a niche product they would have left it to third parties.
You fail to mention the iTunes factor. It's not all about the hardware. How did that figure into this survey?
They did not like being unable to transfer the files, a general DRM problem. MP3s were the preferred format.
[sidebar] iTune isn't really much of a factor anyways. I believe Jobs once stated that the average customer spent US$70. Not much of a lock-in, but that's a different thread (literally). [/sidebar]
I can't stress enough that I do not own an iPod, or care to.
I own one, 2nd generation, the first that were available for PCs. I happy with it.
I just hate to see know-it-alls throw around pointless and and arbitrary surveys like this as data we should all respect.
Really, from reading your post it seemed that you disliked the results and made many erroneous assumptions to rationalize why you should reject the data. As I pointed out it seems consistent with Apple's behavior with respect to radio. It's small scale and regional, but it was done by knowledgeable people under the supervision of experts.
Re:Not only that... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Funny)
Next time, don't leave it in your pocket when you wash your clothes.
Re:Not only that... (Score:4, Funny)
Umm, just what part of the Internet do you think you're in? You seem a little lost.
Re:Not only that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not only that... (Score:4, Interesting)
re: exactly! (Score:4, Insightful)
I use mine pretty much every day, since it's normally attached to a Pioneer adapter on my car stereo.
I'm not denying *some* people have had problems with theirs, of course. But my experience is, this is a device that feels quite "solid" compared to most of the competitors. (The buttons feel like they could fall out of some of the other models I've used!) Sure - they're easy to scratch up, but that's just a cosmetic issue. In some respects, I actually like the way they show poor/rough handling like they do. It gives second-hand purchasers immediate knowledge of whether the previous owner was the type to take care of his/her electronics, or just throw them about.
Re: exactly! (Score:3, Insightful)
I will be looking very hard at MS's offering. The only thing I don't need, however, is video playback. I wish that was an option I could dump for a lower cost. I just want to li
GPS receivers? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know what the very recent ones are like -- maybe they're built like crap -- because I'm still using my Magellan GPS 300, purchased back in 2000. It's waterproof (hell, it floats), dustproof, shockproof, and short of smashing it with a hammer, basically close to indestructible under normal use. The only comment I have to say about it is that the screen can get scratched
Re:Not only that... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Not only that... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OK, kudos to that (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not only that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Insightful)
For now.. the fact is that Apple has removed rights with every version of iTunes since the iTMS launched and they've never granted extra rights.
It's only a matter of time before Apple removes your ability to burn those songs to CD.. that's what we mean when we say "vendor lockin". Apple retains *full* control over your
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Informative)
Except for that bit about increasing the number of authorized computers from three to five [apple.com].
Re:Not only that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft has a record of being utter failures at EVERYTHING they put out to be a "killer" of anything else.
Hell their pinnacles, Tablet PC and XP Media Center both suck horribly. Media Center is buggy crap that is 1/2 of what the open source windows based projects that do the same thing. They keep trying to market the tablet to the masses and the tablet is not ready for the masses.
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Informative)
Apple must love you fanboys.
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Out of touch"? Try "cunning as a fox" instead.
Because now they've started - and this is just the start; expect more to come - to tie the the negative term "vendor lock-in" to Apple. And in the mind of the average punter, because Microsoft are the ones who exposed it, they can't be guilty of the same thing - can they? If they were, that just wouldn't make sense...
Re:Not only that... (Score:5, Informative)
Proud owner of iPod Nano. But when it's time for replacement, I'll give this product a look-see.
Re:Not only that... (Score:4, Informative)
And Apple learned from its mistakes, now you can use USB 2.0 or FireWire.
Not anymore, you can't. iPod videos ship with a USB(2.0) cable only and are unsynchable through firewire, even with the proper cabling. I believe the Nanos are the same way, but am fuzzy on the details. And lemme tell ya, coming from a guy with four Macs, being forced to sync with the only one with USB2.0 on it (which ain't where my music lives) is supremely fucking annoying.
Triv
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Informative)
Historical revisionism. The iPod was originally introduced as a Mac only device. Many macs had USB 1.0, which was next to useless, but all macs since around 1999 had Firewire, which is full 400 Mbs, without the complex slave/master thing which can slow stuff down, especially the was it appears to implemented on the Mac. Also firewire daisy chains so there is no need for a hub. At that time USB was slow. Very slow. Beleive me, I
Oh and it won't be hard to be better than itunes (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Informative)
Let's not forget also use music management software that isn't just ported over from the mac. I absolutely HATE iTunes.
As a Windows-savvy user I first found myself using iTunes on Boxing Day. I think the root of the problem is iTunes is a Mac application, ported to the windows platform. As a result, hard-cor
Re:BS (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes - if you tell iTunes to move the files around, iTunes will (gasp) move the files around! However, it's most certainly not the default - by default, iTunes does nothing with the original files. (Well, except add ID3 tags if they're missing, and update ID3 tags if you edit them via iTunes.) It doesn't mo
Re:Not only that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not only that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Which will increase the size.
AAC isn't a proprietary vendor lock-in format, it's the successor to MP3, as in MP4. It's amazing how many people think AAC is an Apple thing. They've obviously never even looked into the format. AAC is the standard audio format for next-gen movies (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray).
Right, people have found no uses for the port at the bottom of the iPod.
This is another money-sinking venture into locking you into WMA and getting you reliant on Windows tech. The device will be bulky (bigger screen? What, you think Apple won't be introducing new iPods this Christmas either? Probably those huge widescreen touchscreen iPods we've been hearing about for a year) and will only work with Windows and Window Media Player. Yuck.
As for free downloads of iTunes purchases, does Microsoft think people use iPods because of the iTunes Music Store?
Re:Not only that... (Score:3, Interesting)
MS's own DRM-crippled music files are proprietary.
iPod's can play plain ol' MP3s just fine. They do not require AAC.
Signed,
Fake-troll-hater hater
Closed codec's and DRM I'm sure (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Closed codec's and DRM I'm sure (Score:3, Insightful)
I've got about 500 CD's and 2,865 ripped mp3 tracks on my iPod that say otherwise. And they work just fine with iTunes as well (in fact, about half of them were ripped using it).
Presumably MS's player will do the same. If you're encumbered by DRM at this point, you've got nobody to blame but yourself. You do still have choices as to where and how to buy your music. You're the one who chose DRM.
If you don't want
Re:Closed codec's and DRM I'm sure (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Closed codec's and DRM I'm sure (Score:3, Insightful)
Drm sucks.
So I guess I wont show the RIAA that you can make a good model selling music over the internet.
Re:Closed codec's and DRM I'm sure (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft's DRM is not more lenient. It is much more strict than Fair Play. I predict you will not love it.
Re:Closed codec's and DRM I'm sure (Score:4, Insightful)
Not true and a common misconception. Microsoft's DRM can be as flexible and as inflexible as the provider of the music service would like. It is perfectly possible to set the restrictions to be better than those of fairplay, but it is also perfectly possible to do the opposite.
Microsoft does not define how these are set - it is down to the music service and the agreements they have with labels.
Given previous experience, you're probably right on that one.
Woah (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll assume the summary leaves out the crucial word "free" in there. If so, that's pretty damn clever. I just wonder how/if MS will get the music cartels to agree to it, other than wholescale bombing of their headquarters' into submission by the Windows Air Force.
Re:Woah (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Woah (Score:5, Informative)
"...But it gets better. To attract current iPod users Microsoft is going to let you download for free any songs you've already bought from the iTunes Music Store. They'll actually scan iTunes for purchased tracks and then automatically add those to your account....[MS has to pay rights-holders...they'll lose money to win converts] "
From: http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/06/microsoft-plann ing-wifi-enabled-portable-media-player-working-o/ [engadget.com]
Re:Woah (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Woah (Score:4, Insightful)
Forget that, how will they enforce it?
Violate the DMCA and try decrypting the songs?
Hack Apple's servers for information?
Re:Woah (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Woah (Score:4, Informative)
Albeit ostensibly benevolent, keep in mind Microsoft has a habit of trying to dump loads of money to gain initial market share. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.
Re:Woah (Score:5, Informative)
Personally I don't see how this will work. I can't imagine Apple being too keen on it.
Re:Woah (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally, I'm going to be encouraging everyone I know to sign up for the service and download the Microsoft versions of their iTunes libraries - and then cancel their subscription.
Hmm let's think this through. (Score:3)
Soo, lets say you've filled it from iTunes and say that would cost say..oooh $15k
Ignoring for a start that nobody has ever filled an iPod with legit music, do you really think that MS is going to pay that much to help you switch?
They've obviously done a deal with the record companies. We'll help you break Apple's virtual monopoly on downloaded music and ensure you don't lose a penny.
Record companies allow MS to 'swap out' Fair Play tracks for Plays for Sure at zero
Re:Hmm let's think this through. (Score:3)
It is a problem because:
#1 It is Apple keeping the music prices down on downloadable stores. MS would be happy to have music go for any price the RIAA wants including tiered.
#2 I don't use PCs. This is my choice.
#3 MS DRM is far more ugly.
#4 MS profits from illegally using their Windows Monopoly again.
Now if you were to talk about
Re:Woah (Score:5, Funny)
"Why those are some real nice computers you got there at the RIAA, running some fancy Windows OS too. Sure would be a shame if WGA suddenly listed them all as pirated...."
Ipod killer? Not unless... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ipod killer? Not unless... (Score:3, Informative)
Without being long-winded, the technology just isn't there. The iPaq (with Windows Mobile 5) freezes up constantly (have to take out the battery to restart it). The handheld web browser only supports a small SMALL subset of Java (it basically has no Java support at all). In addition to that, even with the screen turned sideways, browsing the internet (especially the CSS
How about Zen Vision killer? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple will do fine. They have dominated the mp3 business far in excess of anyone's expectations, and for far longer. Even if they fall back to a 40% market share; that will still be a large and successful business.
Does it literally kill ipods? (Score:5, Funny)
also.. (Score:5, Funny)
Neutered PDA? (Score:2)
I picked up a Dell Axim x3i off EBay about half a year ago for under $200. Snagged a 1GB SD card for it a month later. And have been enjoying my play lists ever since.
-Rick
One jailer for another (Score:5, Insightful)
Next, I hope they'll let me "upgrade" all my paperbacks to MSReader encrypted format too!
Re:One jailer for another (Score:3, Informative)
Yes and no. With the iPod, you are locked into the iTunes music store, but also the iPod itself. With this, you will be locked into the WMA format, but that is availble from a number of different stores. Also, you won't be locked into the MS player, as other players will play WMA files. So while you may be lcoked into the format, you aren't locked into a particular store or player. Seems like a good idea to me.
Re:One jailer for another (Score:3, Interesting)
What MS is doing here is the same thing it did with the PCs in the late 80s. It is brin
Smart move from Microsoft? (Score:2, Insightful)
one bad turn deserves another? (Score:2, Troll)
and lock you into another.... just great
Translation: (Score:2, Insightful)
Translation: The Microsoft device will be bigger than the iPod, and have signifigantly lower battery life.
Of course, given that it's from Microsoft, I'm sure they'll take a cue from every other product they make, and give it a worst-in-class user interface to top things off.
uhh (Score:3, Informative)
Unless Microsoft is providing DRM free files, I will stay far away from this. At least iTunes lets me burn the songs to CD as many times as I wish.
If I had a dollar for every "iPod killer"... (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean that colossal cash sink the XBox, right? (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft makes money in the Windows division. MS has lost around $7 Billion in the last four years on divisions like the XBox and MSN. They've got their essential monopoly in the PC market, and they're using it for forays into other areas -- none of which has been that successful.
Given that, this supposed plan to pay for licenses to everything you've bought on iTunes does fit MS's established M.O.... which is to lose reams of money trying to gain market share, just as you say. Xbox/360 market share today
The market is becoming queasy about MS (Score:3, Insightful)
The purpose is to gain as much marketshare as possible as quickly as possible at whatever cost necessary.
Oh yeah, that couldn't be more clear. The question I have is:
Steps 3 and 4 don't quite seem to be getting off the ground, here, whatever they are. They aren't "Now that we've got businesses locked into Office Suites, we'll make them upgrade." I "got" that. Apparently we'll see in the next five
Apple and RIAA are laughing softly (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is laughing because Microsoft seems to have no profit foothold anywhere in the business plan. As new entrants their players will most likely have to compete on price, reducing the profit margin there. And by re-paying labels for music already purchases, they are in essence subsidizing their customers' libraries--a huge expense. Compare to Apple who commands a healthy profit on the players AND a small profit on every song sold. The only thing better than beating a competitor is making them lose a lot money and STILL get beaten.
Re:Apple and RIAA are laughing softly (Score:3, Insightful)
Also Vista will come with Surge which is MTV's video/audio store with WM11. So its likely the RIAA already has a deal with Microsoft and they are sick of Apple telling them to screw themselves with price controls. With more competition it gives the RIAA leveredge because they can sell their music to Microsoft and ignore Apple if the terms are not favorable eno
Re:Apple and RIAA are laughing softly (Score:3, Insightful)
Ummm...
In terms of music players and software, Apple has access to more like 99% of desktops in the world (discounting Linux and Unix desktops). Or have you forgotten that iTunes for Windows exists? If you're going to throw meaningless numbers like that around, Apple actually comes out on top.
Apple also is starting this "war" with around 80% market share in
The Long Game (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, that's no guarantee of success. But it would be dangerous to write off a product from someone with their cash reserves, determina
Re:Apple and RIAA are laughing softly (Score:3, Interesting)
Who wants to run a Vista powered MP3 player (Score:3, Informative)
Janus? (Score:3, Interesting)
Do I need to input password... (Score:5, Funny)
What their iPod killer will be... (Score:5, Funny)
You know how you can order an iPod from Apple with a custom etching on the back?
Microsoft just placed an order for a few thousand blue iPods with "Microsoft" etched on the back. Internal reports suggest they won't even bother opening up the boxes as they come in the mail, instead just redirect them to their "customers".
fools (Score:5, Insightful)
The iPod is a) simple, b) reliable, c) user-friendly, d) cool, e) well designed and f) ties in well with iTunes. That's what sells it, not bigger screens or WiFi. Nobody who owns an iPod wants to fiddle around for 5 minutes to get the WiFi to work.
Get in line (Score:3, Informative)
Google "ipod killer" -> 1,160,000 results.
We've seen iPod killers from Sony [theregister.co.uk], iRiver [pcworld.com], Dell [connectedhomemag.com], Nokia [softpedia.com], and of course Creative [arstechnica.com].
Microsoft has been [com.com] killing [engadget.com] the iPod for years now. They need to get their other iPod killers out of the way to give their new device a piece of that tasty iPod flesh that Apple competitors have been feasting on for years.
Music Store Lock-in Exaggerated (Score:4, Insightful)
The iTunes Music Store (iTMS) lock-in is exaggerated. I think Jobs mentioned that the average iTMS customer purchased US$70 worth of music. That's not much of a lock-in, especially given that we're talking about folks with the resources to buy an iPod - a digital player at the expensive end of the spectrum.
Now if only Microsoft would expand the policy to include music I purchased on LPs, 8 tracks, and casettes.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Already Exists? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/media/giga
They already have most of the store (Score:3, Insightful)
OGG? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, that's all very well, but will it play my OGG files?
STOP! (Score:5, Insightful)
Msft is not considered hip enough to sell iPods (Score:4, Insightful)
Consider the age group that is the target market. High school, and college students just don't consider msft cool anymore (did they ever?).
Anyone keeping count? (Score:3, Interesting)
And best of all (Score:4, Funny)
Wifi? audio player? OMG! (Score:3, Insightful)
* MSFT negotiates one-time flat fee to music industry to let I-tunes customers use the content they already bought on the new player/service.
* Similar to X-box, product is priced at a discount to build market share and hopefully capture revenue on content distribution
* Product is locked-down against non-MS software, to ensure the revenue stream is not disrupted by rogue software
* Lock-down is less than perfect. Hey, it's an MS product.
* Hackers buy the players, and run Linux on it. Just like they did with Ipod.
* Wifi hardware means a whole new frontier of peer-to-peer filesharing, after the MS DRM is vaporized.
* People buy LOTS of MS music players when they realize what is possible with a nifty download
* Music industry angry with MSFT for enabling a massive, untrackable, unstoppable, wireless P2P network.
The one missing piece of the puzzle is a wifi music player. Hackers can't create hardware and put in the hands of millions of people. Along comes the unlikely hero... Microsoft!
And I thought they would never create a product that customers would really want. HA!
Let me get this straight... (Score:3, Insightful)
Now they're going to go into direct competition with their licensees. This should go over well...
I'm sure the licensees all understand that they were really just preparing a market for Microsoft, and will quietly close up shop. Certainly, none of these companies such as Creative Labs has ever shown any tendency to cause trouble or litigate. I'm sure they can all simply rely on the US Justice Department's oversight and Microsoft's honoring the DOJ settlement and consent decree to ensure that Microsoft won't try to extend it's monopoly here.
Right...
Another group of companies are about to learn what happens when one 'partners' with Microsoft. Have a nice day, fellas.
Re:Oragami (Score:5, Funny)
It was folded.
Re:Not going to buy it (Score:4, Interesting)
A wide library was extremely important to me. I like being able to go weeks without hearing a song again, and none of the other players I saw even came close in capacity. They need more jiggawatts.
Re:Not going to buy it (Score:3, Funny)
Sort of "the beast you know is better than the beast you don't..."
Re:Not going to buy it (Score:5, Funny)
If by 'hacking', you mean: insert a memory card with a movie on it and click 'play', then by all means, hack away mr. hacker!
Re:Stop saying iPod Killer! (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, yeah?
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=009
Re:In other news... (Score:4, Informative)
"The problem is, the PC model doesn't work in the consumer electronics industry, where you've got all these companies and some does one thing and another does another thing. It just doesn't work. What's going to happen is that Microsoft is going to have to get into the hardware business of making MP3 players. This year. X-player, or whatever."
The link is here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10853916/site/newswee
Re:I'll wait for Apple's next iteration after this (Score:3, Interesting)