Apple Needs To Get Its Game On 332
BusinessWeek is running a piece exploring why Apple needs to get back into gaming. From the article: "Maybe Apple's user base just isn't fully aware of great games that are now available for the Mac? Sure, there are games to be found at the Apple store, prominently displayed in the software section. But does Apple market the Mac as a gaming machine? Adams says it should. 'The biggest thing that Apple could do is educate its users,' she says. 'Apple's message is so closely tied to iTunes and iLife and the iPod and these are all great selling points. We have a great relationship with Apple and they help us get the games ready. But we really need the users to meet us halfway, and only Apple can make that happen.'"
Educating users ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Educate them how ? Like Bob or Clippy ? Like Vista (à la "You need more privileges to move that file") ? No, thanks !
A "switch" ad for gamers (Score:4, Funny)
P-P-Powerbook! (Score:2)
So THIS is the guy that ended up with the P-P-Powerbook!
I'll bet it still managed to run C&C, though....
Re:P-P-Powerbook! (Score:2)
Far cheeper than buying a P-P-PowerBook
Who cares about games? (Score:5, Funny)
Yay for gaming (Score:2, Funny)
How about iCantPlayFPSWithOneMouseButton . . . thanks, I'll be here all week (or until the mods show up). Tip your waiters.
Re:Yay for gaming (Score:2, Funny)
-------------stupid
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Re:Yay for gaming (Score:2)
Who cares? To play games get a console from Sony, M$ or Nintendo and get the best game performance for your money. Buy a Mac if you want a computer than "just works", for which you don't have to spend a pile of extra money on protection software, just to keep it operational. Use the money and time you save from not having to fight Windows malware and BSOD to buy and play some console games on a computer made especially for g
I hope so (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I hope so (Score:2)
( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=360205536
Best of both worlds? (Score:2)
making games profitable to port (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:making games profitable to port (Score:2)
Can DirectX be licensed from Microsoft and ported to MacOSX, or is it tied to some technology that is Windows Only?
I know it would defeat the purpose of using Open standards, but wouldn't it make easier to port games?
Re:making games profitable to port (Score:2)
But for that you need to improve them (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, maybe these guys just aren't very good. Ok, fair enough but you have to consider those people as well as the Carmacks. You cannot make the argument that everyone should be a grand master, most people aren't.
Well, the problem is if 99% of developers find DirectX easier than the cross platform tools, they are more likely to use it. Again you come to economics. You are going to make, by far, more money on Windows than any other platform. So you calculate how much you think you'll make cross platform (and you probably lowball it since you want to CYA) vs how much extra cost in dev time using APIs your programmers don't liek will add (and you highball that for the same reason) and the conclusion is you don't do the port.
From talking to my friend the cross platform stuff just needs a lot of simplification and unification. He claims it takes much less effort to make something work in DirectX than OpenGL and that everything in DirectX, be it 2D, 3D, input, sound, etc is all done in the same way.
So I think what needs to be done first is to out slick DirectX. Produce a unified API that does everything, and does it easier than DX does. You have a leg up in that regard as you aren't shackled to any legacy designs. Make it so that, even if they don't plan on porting, developers want to use it because it is so much better. Port the API to everything, Windows, Mac, Liunx, the consoles, and so on. Then it becomes much easier to make the port argument "Well if you are going to use AwesomeAPI anyhow it takes very little time to port cross platform."
But I do think the better API has to come first. Make it a benefit, not a sacrafice.
Re:But for that you need to improve them (Score:3, Insightful)
As a general observation, to me this screams "My friend is not a very good programmer" quite loudly. If you disagree, ask your friend to show you, say, the DirectX code needed to render a single triangle, and then the same code fo
Re:making games profitable to port (Score:3, Insightful)
Now with even John Carmack singing the praises of MS's "XNA" XBox360 stuff, OpenGL seems headed back to the workstation market.
Re:making games profitable to port (Score:2)
Re:making games profitable to port (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmmm I believe UT2003/4 and Doom 3 (Quake 4? have not tried that) use SDL for Mac & Linux Clients.
I think they are "industrial strength" bah.
hold on (Score:3, Interesting)
Open GL and DirectX are both supported on XP and in GPU drivers. If people have given up developing on OpenGL (which has more scope to be ported) and have moved to DirectX, maybe that's because a) it's better and b) it's easier to develop for.
If you own a decently specced machine (i.e. decent GPU) then in all likelihood you've got a recently produced intel-based Apple machine.
Just buy XP. Use OSX for everything else by all means - but games take over the whole user in
Re:making games profitable to port (Score:3, Interesting)
Porting probably isn't the type of activity that you can throw more programmers at... TFA says that they have 5 porters, and that's pr
Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:5, Insightful)
An Apple/Nintendo merger makes quite a bit of sense from a corporate culture perspective as well - Nintendo, like Apple, is the smaller, more personal of the gaming companies, focused on user experience more than sheer graphic/processing power. From a philosophical standpoint, their directions align nicely.
Additionally, Nintendo could help Apple expand into the Japanese / Asian market with other consumer electronics, given Nintendo's HQ and savvy with that marketplace.
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:2, Interesting)
If correct, not to say that it would be academic to port Nintendo games to Apple, but the path would be a little more straightforward than if Nintendo were Windows CE based, for example.
Also, their portables products could eventually merge into a reasonable competitor for the PSP - GameBoy/DS+iPod, anyone?
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:2)
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:2)
Apple should buy Nintendo...
Realistically, that's not going to happen. Before the switch to Intel processors they were ideally positioned for a partnership. It would have been relatively easy for Macs to ship with the ability to run all Nintendo games, thus bolstering both Nintendo game sales, and Mac OS's deficient game lineup. Now, it would be a bit harder and I think it less likely. Apple could buy a few gaming companies or otherwise arrange for some exclusive titles, but I'm not sure it would be enou
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a lot of parallels that you can draw between Apple and Nintendo, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense for them to merge. Why is it bad that Nintendo is an independent company? Why would Apple want to outlay a huge pile of money to buy them? How many years would it take for that purchase to pay itself off? Would it even work? Even if there was no interruption to either business, and they both continued to turn a profit, the purchase price would be very large, and it'd take many years for the profit to cover those initial costs. Apple is doing pretty well financially, but I still don't think they can afford to buy their way into a huge market like MS is doing.
Apple is already well respected in Japan. They don't need Nintendo's help. Nintendo doesn't need their help. I really don't see the logic in it at all. Sorry
Re:Apple should buy Nintendo (Score:5, Funny)
Apple Console (Score:2)
Apple used to have the premier gaming computer... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Apple used to have the premier gaming computer. (Score:3, Insightful)
Excuse me? All I can remember of the early-80s gaming scene is that whenever a game came out for both Apple II's and C-64s, the graphics and sound on the C-64 version would blow away the Apple version.
Not convinced? Summer Games from Epyx. I rest my case.
Re:Apple used to have the premier gaming computer. (Score:2)
It's the games stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree, to an extent..... (Score:4, Interesting)
In the current state of Mac gaming, small companies like Aspyr and MacPlay only want to expend effort porting a title that's already proven to be a "winner" in the Windows world.
Right now, no - a "hard core gamer" won't really be happy with a Mac. They want the latest stuff the day it's first released, and they also tend to spend crazy amounts on money on the latest video cards, just for an extra 15 frames per second improvement.
In general, Mac users buy their machines with intentions of getting useful work done. Most PowerMac owners I know use them for projects that pay back more than the cost of the whole machine upon a single project's completion. (Wedding videographers and photographers, for example
That said, I think one problem with Mac action games has traditionally been the way the PPC chip does math. The coders of Doom 3 complained about this holding them back from getting the game running on parity, speed-wise, with the Windows counterpart. With Intel based Macs, maybe they're finally free of this issue.
Re:It's the games stupid (Score:2)
The biggest thing for Apple to do... (Score:3, Informative)
Apple's CPUs just weren't up to snuff. Now they are. Next up, graphics cards. I've heard the Mac versions are often terribly slow (mostly from arriving 1+ year after the PC part) for the desktops. The chip in my PowerBook was nice, but it was no screamer either. They also need to fix the integrated graphics issue (which is partially Intel's fault. Who makes a non-T&L chip in 2006?).
Re:The biggest thing for Apple to do... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The biggest thing for Apple to do... (Score:2)
people marketing a computer for business use?
Business doesn't need T&L. Its sole purpose is for gaming.
this is why the boys in the data entry department are getting Dimension 1100s and not XPS 9,000,000s
Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
Macs are 100% capable of running all the latest games, and doing it well. Hell, these days they are basically a typical x86 machine with a totally ideal OS. You can get the most recent powerful video cards no problem, so it's not like performance is an issue, especially considering that every new Mac has a cutting edge Intel CPU in it (other than the G5s).
It would be nice if, for example, developers would use OpenGL more often considering it's actually the only reasonably cross-platform 3d API that has fairly widespread acceptance. I can't understand why companies willfully lock themselves into a Fisher-Price platform just because all the kiddies use it. It's frustrating as hell to me that game development companies are so shallow that literally all they care about is what will make them money.
I guess I'm just too idealistic in imagining a world where software is written with adherence to cross-platform standards, where people can run the same pieces of software regardless of what platform they prefer.
I shouldn't have to be locked out of huge portions of the software industry because I purchase the computers that work best for me. Unfortunately, it seems that "those who make the decisions" don't agree with that sentiment at all.
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
And this from Blizzard, a company that has always been very with-it, wrt cross-platform design.
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:3, Funny)
Question, meet answer.
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
One day while working at Looking Glass Studios some years back, I was called to an all-hands company meeting. It turned out the meeting was the announcement that it was to be the last day of the company's existence. Why were we closing down? Money. We had none, and we owed lots. Everyone at the meeting was sad, from playtesters to the president. Why sad? Because we had a great team that had made some great games, and we were in the process of making even better ones. Not because we were money-grubbing pigs.
The reason game companies care about making money is so that they can stay solvent and make more games.
To your other point, every game company I know of uses some sort of platform-agnostic libraries/framework/etc. But compiled code does not a shipping product make. Optimizations, installers, QA, packaging, distribution channels, you name it. It all costs money, and if the result isn't a net gain, it means the company can't afford it. Do you buy things you can't afford?
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:2)
However this is exactly what I wish more companies could say: "Because we had a great team that had made some great games, and we were in the process of making even better ones. Not because we were money-grubbing pigs." That very attitude produced a totally infl
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
You: The reason game companies care about making money is so that they can stay solvent and make more games.
Spot the difference.
No one is saying game companies shouldn't worry about making money, but that they should, first and foremost, care about making great games. Money just happens to be the second-most critical requirement for making great games (the first is talent).
Think about it personally. Do you only care about making money? No. Do you care about making money? Yes. Big difference.
To your other point, every game company I know of uses some sort of platform-agnostic libraries/framework/etc.
Except for those that go with DirectX, which do, sadly, exist.
Do you buy things you can't afford?
C'mon, this is America. Of *course* we do. But no one is asking came companies to buy (develop) a game they can't afford. Instead, we just want them to make the best games that they can afford, and not simply make the games that will make them the most money regardless of quality.
Of course, you might ask, "why should a company not seek the most money possible?" That's a shallow question (not aimed at you, unless it's a question you'd ask). Companies are made of people, and people will often prefer to be involved with a quality project. Companies exist solely to serve people, and people desire quality products. It's really up to the people in the corporation to choose the balance between quality and profit, although it's my opinion that profit is chosen in a proportion greater than the people involved would prefer, which brings us full circle to the OP's lament.
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:2)
Add to that the fact that DX gives you 95% of the computer market, and 30% of the console market, while OGL gives you 5% of the computer market and none of the console market, and you'll start seeing the reasons.
Yes, OGL is picking up again. And maybe, one day,
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:2)
So? Given the dominance of Windows, why would rational, profit-maximizing game developers focus on OpenGL (and finding some combination of other cross-platform libraries for sound, input, network abstraction, etc.) rather than just using DirectX, which covers more than just the graphics, and virtually everyone willing to spend mo
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:2)
Software should be developed to run on numerous platforms from day one.
Take a look at Halo. The port from Xbox -> PC was painful. Very painful. Then they ported PC -> Mac. So that's two layers of fitting a square peg into a round hole. Well actually, the worst part is that Halo really started out on Mac OS... but that's a whole different story...
Anyway, Mac games have a really bad rep for being slow/laggy, and it's 100% because all our g
Re:Blame sw dev stupidity, not Apple (Score:2)
Heh, give me some credit man. I'm making a realistic & reasonable criticism: that companies sacrifice nearly all values that don't directly involve profit.
I am fully aware that companies need to make money, and make profits, and grow/expand.
However, this doesn't mean it's neccesary to sacrifice subtle qualities like cross-platform development, quality user ex
tough point in Mac OS history for developers (Score:2)
The range of Apple hardware specs and Mac OS variations are at their highest right now. There are still OS9-ready titles on the Apple store shelves, and now you have to worry about the difference between Panther, Tiger, as well as PowerPC and Intel.
Sure, I want to go into the store and see a pile
WTF is Apple supposed to do? (Score:2)
They plug the hell out of what games are available for the Mac currently, and have made some interesting contributions to the scene (Netsprockets a while back, firm OpenGL support, writing drivers for videocards, etc). Heck we even have them (amongst others, don't get me wrong) to thank for pushing widescreen resolutions.
What else could they do to try a
Re:WTF is Apple supposed to do? (Score:2)
Yeah, maybe when they aren't busy counting their record profits, they worry about increasing marketshare. A little bit maybe.
When Apple releases a Pentium-D stripper similar to the developer box they loaned out, then it might be plausible they are concerned about marketshare. Otherwise it's clear that they are maximizing their own profits over those of 3rd party Mac developers (which is fine but we should state what is really going
Why Apple doesn't care about gamers (Score:2, Flamebait)
You would think (Score:4, Interesting)
Whether or not they actually have better graphics capability or not anymore, I don't know. But I know the historical use for Macs in business has been for graphic design, or other things that require very fine graphics.
All the best games have great graphics. You'd think that those games would be even better on a Mac, since they reportedly have so much better graphics capability. And yet, the big downfall for Mac historically has been that you have to have a Windows machine for gaming, because there just aren't games for Macs.
Which leads me to believe that maybe the "Macs have better graphics" line has always been a bunch of hooey. Had there been extensive game development for Mac earlier on, maybe there'd be 90% market share for Apple and 10% for Microsoft now. And you'd think that, early on and capitalism being what it is, game companies would have pushed games for the Mac. Did they?
Re:You would think (Score:2)
Re:You would think (Score:2, Insightful)
PCs for the longest time (and even currently to a lesser extent) had better video cards available. Macs were still preferred for graphics work, because most REAL graphics work doesn't involve a vi
Re:You would think (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, Macs have been touted as better for graphics, that's not really true, but the difference is in the work flow, and the community.
3D development is just as powerful on a Mac as on a PC no difference there.
Game development is a whole other ball game, all the while Macs were running on PPC, it has made it very difficult for game companies to port their systems from x86 to PPC, not to mention that also the OS s
Re:You would think (Score:2)
And games don't really drive the large-scale PC market, businesses do. Games drive the video card and chip industry forward, but sales and therefore the installed base has alw
Integrate with iTunes (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it would be to Apple's benefit to improve gaming a bit on MacOS, but I don't think that trying to compete with real gaming platforms is a good battle to fight.
What they need to do is:
- Integrate software purchases into iTunes. ITMS is simple and ubiquitous.. expand the scope of the store to include software, and you could guarantee good sales for small developers.
- Concentrate on mini games, which would be fast to download and appeal to the casual gamer. Solitare card games, Tetris, etc.. License old arcade classics, like Pac Man, Galaga, Tempest, etc. Charge a few bucks per game and you'll get plenty of sales.
-- Maybe produce a couple more complex games, like a flight simulator, golf game, racing game, or something like that.
you mean like these: (Score:2)
Re:Like Steam? Only for the mac? (Score:2)
Ulp. I can't believe that I'm suggesting this (Score:5, Insightful)
First though, Apple needs to sit down with ATi, Intel, and likely soon nVidia and get their drivers in better working order. they have the push to be able to do this so there should be no reason not to. Currently, the Intel Macs perform significantly worse under World of Warcraaft under OSX than booting into XP. Yes, this is just one app but it is a driver issue. This needs to change immediately.
Apple also needs to woo the developers (developers! developers!) to OSX. It's not going to happen immediately but if they can prove that there is both a market and a valid gaming system (get rid of crappy GMA-950, fix drivers) then they might have a chance. Developers are already going to have to switch to Vista's new way of doing things, they could also switch to OSX.
So, first step: get the back catalog. Next step: get the developers. Apple has a serious chance here. They better not screw it up.
Apple doesn't support ISVs very well (Score:2)
My life as a Mac Gamer (Score:2)
Re:My life as a Mac Gamer (Score:2)
Well, hard to market as a game machine... (Score:2)
Unless Apple would just market the hardware, then sure, great game machines when you boot them into Windows, although they have under powered video cards.
(And yes, even with native Intel based OSX games, not just emulated)
Apple Game Development Unlikely (Score:3, Interesting)
Another argument of the article is that there are rumors of Apple hiring game developers. This purported fact goes on to suggest that Apple will be turning the iPod and the Mac into gaming platforms. I think that this is way too far of a leap. My first bet is that Apple is looking for OpenGL developers to speed up and fine tune OpenGL development in the undercarriage of Mac OS X's graphics system. Where else would you look for such knowledgeable people so focused on speed and performance of imaging than in the world of games? If development goes further than this, I expect that game developers are being paid to port the platforms games are built upon to Mac OS X to make it easier for developers to move their apps over.
Would Apple co-develop the next big game on Mac OS X with LucasArts (or whoever)? While not out of the question, I doubt Apple would want to be included in the credit and liability of such a game. Violence. Sex. and worse, a lame final result, might ruin the potential of the Mac for other game developers. One of the hottest games for the Mac when I was in college was MacPlaymate. It was an exercise in virutal dildonics and let the user get the on-screen half-toned bitmapped woman to emit orgasmic sounds of ectasy. It wasn't ported to other platforms (that I'm aware) but it probably sold more Macs on my campus when a cracked version made it to the campus computer labs than any other pirated app. Was Apple appreciative of these sales? Probably. Would Apple want to build a marketing campaign on such a unique product to the Mac platform? Probably not.
The Aqua user interface is something that Apple prides itself on. It isn't a gaming interface though. It's a standard user interface for business, education, and scientific apps, and it goes out of its way to tell you to follow our rules for making your app, or don't use Aqua at all. That doesn't mean that Apple is discouraging game developers, but it doesn't want corruption of its crown jewels in the process. Games that follow the rules are great (A board or card game for example) but if you go beyond that then you need to design your own user interface and immerse the user in that instead. Perhaps Apple will come out with a game interface that's themeable and radical and immersive and looks nothing like Aqua (just as it provides non-Aqua elements for Dashbaord widgets). But it's still not a certainty that game developers would want to use that interface.
Most likely in my mind is if Apple wants a hot gaming platform, it will start out by trying to convince other gaming platforms to come to Mac OS X. Play on the fear of Microsoft's Xbox to get Sony or Nintendo to develop a partial console that uses Mac hardware to make itself complete. I can see Apple throwing money at getting an existing game development environment onto the Mac, but I can't see Apple trying to enter this world by itself.
Oh well, back to running MacPlaymate under classic
*BACK* into gaming? (Score:2)
bullsh*t (Score:3, Informative)
These spawned HALO, which put the xbox on the map.
Apple switches to Intel; gaming goes Power PC (Score:2)
Why no Apple-branded gaming controller? (Score:2)
Chicken + Egg... (Score:2)
Contemporary games wont be ported until Apple ships something better than GMA950 in a majority of their consumer level products (so Doom 3, HL2, etc don't look like a slideshow).
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:4, Funny)
That's a given for Mac users!
Ah thankyou!
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:2)
Was there ever any doubt??? Well, at least point 1 in the parents comment is worth of Insightfull.
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:2)
8) Bah! Enough, this article is boring....
Exactly where I stopped reading as well.
Man fanboy? (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Man fanboy? (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:2)
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:2)
*snort* - nicely put - and three retorts instead of the inevitable one
(and unfortunately I can't use the typo defense having savaged [slashdot.org] someone for accidentally calling me a mac fag instead of a mac fan)
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Paragraph by Paragraph yawnary: (Score:2)
And ironically enough, I almost submitted that with "now" typo'ed in for "not", of course without previewing.
Re:First Thing (Score:2, Interesting)
SimCity 4 Deluxe for Mac - $60
SimCity 4 Deluxe for PC - $20
If this is the best they can do, I'll be happy to pay for a copy of Windows XP for gaming and use BootCamp
From the article:
Adams told me, a successful Mac game might sell 50,000 units. It physically hurt my head to hear so low a number. My first question after hearing it was, "How do you do this profitably?" Her reply: "It's always been a razor-thin kind of thing."
Sig
Re:First Thing (Score:4, Informative)
Note that the price disparity also exists for mainstream programs like MS Office. Mac users are not price sensitive.
Re:First Thing (Score:2)
that explains why there low end inexpensive mac mini was a failure.... wait
Re:First Thing (Score:2)
The Intel Mini looks more attractive spec-wise, but it's also basically twice the price of similar PCs (ignoring the formfactor).
[And no, I don't feel like arguing the point, so if you wanna believe the Mini is a fabulous bargin, you just go right ahead and don't bother rigging up some dell price comparison.]
Re:First Thing (Score:3, Informative)
Re:First Thing (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:First Thing (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:First Thing (Score:2)
Hard core Mac fans want their computers to just work. They don't care much for tweaking their hardware or for building their own computers.
Because of that reason I am sticking to Windows/nix and to off the shelf interchangeable hardware components.
Re:First Thing (Score:2)
Re:FP? (Score:2)
Re:FP? (Score:2)
Re:FP? (Score:2)
Sure he could go out and Jock instead; breaking bones on the football field, suffering permanant brain damage from fights and contact sports, spend weekends in the back seat with Becky Sue and watch her as she bears the first of your many childern at age 16 then, to support this family work in
Re:No not really.... (Score:2)
Re:iGames (Score:2)
I wouldn't put it past them. And if it's done well with reasonable games at reasonable prices, *and I can move game keys to iGames without paying anything else* then I'll get a Mac to play games on. I can't justify buying a Mac with no games (Sorry, but I like my PC games), nor can I just
Re:Eveyone knows winodws is the untimate game mach (Score:2)