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Ex-AppleCare Employee Describes Life Inside Apple
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat May 13, 2006 04:32 AM
from the not-a-bad-gig-if-you-can-get-it dept.
from the not-a-bad-gig-if-you-can-get-it dept.
ahknight writes "A former AppleCare employee writes about his time in Apple. From the article: 'I remember when I first started at Apple they had a picture in the training class of some guy in flip-flops, shorts, and a tropical shirt in a decorated cube with a goofy grin, the message being: it's casual. One fellow even went as far as pushing that to the reasonable limit by showing up to work every day for several months in a bathrobe and sandals (and shorts). I don't recall a word ever being said. I think he actually just gave up because no one said anything.'"
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little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Knowlegde and understanding of tech is just 50% of the support-job, knowledge and understanding of people is the rest.
Re:little Apple (Score:3, Insightful)
and you know this how, exactly? Did he ever take a support incident from you?
-jcr
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
He didn't actually have to interact directly with the guy to know what he's like at support - after all the guy wrote a long article describing his experiences. Perhaps after reading the following in TFA:The GP thought that the guy who wrote the story had a bit of contempt for his customers? I hope that attitude is not typical for Apple Support (but judging by my experience with the "Geniuses" I would say it is).
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
And just as the larger group of Mac users are just normal people doing their thing, the larger group of computer users are normal people doing their thing.
Ask *anyone* in tech support, in any business. I've asked a few in different businesses and the answer's always the same.
This blog poster's attitude is nothing unusual.
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:2)
I don't think all Mac users are whiney - some (like me!) are - but that vast majority are not.
Ask *anyone* in tech support, in any business. I've asked a few in different businesses and the answer's always the same.
Yes, I am aware of that - I did my hard yards in *shudder* support. However - I don't think its right - as the OP said:
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
A month ago I had to call cox about my cable modem and I dreaded making the call, knowing that I was going to be treated to someone with less than half my knowlege.
My connection would just die after any type data would transfer. It could be replicated within a seconds of loading up counter-strike or downloading a file. After much tests I concluded that either my cable modem was going bad, or their line had issues.
Sir, do you have a home network.
Yes.
Sir, first of all, it is not our network, it is your network with the problem.
Lady, I disconnected from the network and am currently directly connected to the cable modem.
Ok sir, what browser do you use.
Opera.
Sir, we don't support Opera
Lady, I have Firefox and IE, I assume you want me to use IE, pretend I never said Opera.
How often do you clear your temporary internet files?
Lady, I just want to play counter-strike, I never use IE, so I don't clear the temp files.
Sir, we don't support games
Ok, forget I said counter-strike, would you like me to go clear my temp files now?
Please.
Ok, that was fast, now what? I still can't download more than a few KB of that linux ISO.
(we continued with other newbie crap such as my connection settings, firewall, manage add-ins, if I have any 'strange icons next to the clock', etc, etc...)
Sir, I am in your modem right now and all the levels look good
I start a download and connection dies, she says she is still in my modem.
Your modem is fine, I am connected to it and all levels look good.
It looks good??? my internet JUST died. Lady, I need to get off the phone, click
I go to best buy, buy a new cable modem, call them up and give them my new info and my problems are now gone.
What good was my knowledge? Even though I know a thing or two, I was treated like I knew nothing.
Parent
I have to share this! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:little Apple (Score:3, Interesting)
I only called twice at AppleCare. It was for a school that paid for it but forgot about it, I found it in their papers (the best kind of customers, I guess). The first time, the lady was very helpful (but only after I provided the serial and all the infos to prove it really was from a paying cus
Re:little Apple (Score:2)
Bullshit.
Why do you say Bullshit? Perhaps it's because you didn't finish reading my sentence? Here it is again, with the two words you forgot to qupte bolded for your reading convenience:
You see :-) - makes more sense now doesn't it - the guy wrote a long essay about his support experiences at AppleCare, so we dp know what he's like at
Re:little Apple (Score:2)
It does if the blog entry is all about how he conducts himself on the job - which this one clearly is. You need to think a little harder before making categorical statements like that.
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, I have a method for getting excellent customer service when I call Apple, or some other tech company. One of the first things out of my mouth is, "I'm one of those total idiots, but I promise I won't yell at you." This usually gets at least a giggle. Then I actually make two minutes of small talk. No shit! I don't drag it out any further, but I want to get at least a tiny feel for whom I'm talking to.
Next, I outline my problem. I have ready any pertinent information (model #, OS version, etc.). I have notes about what steps I've already taken. Then I go through whatever steps the service rep has in their three ring binder (or modern equivalent). When none of those steps solve the problem, they send me a box to send in my laptop. I thank the rep, and ask for their manager's email address, so I can send praise. And I do so.
I've never called Apple with a software problem. It's always been hardware. Software I can solve on my own. They've been nothing but top notch in solving my hardware problems, going above and beyond, fixing things that I didn't expect to be covered by Applecare (dented case, cigarette burns on the keyboard).
As I said, Applecare has been top notch, in my experience. This might be because of pure dumb luck or it might be because I treat the rep as I would want to be treated if I was in their shoes. My attitude is, "How can I help the rep (to help me)." I've heard a few horror stories, and I attribute those to either bad luck, or the customer being a cocksucker.
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
At least with appliances, its not really a matter of being stupid, since the interface has been the same for generations.
Still, we'd get the crazies, (for good service, don't threaten the serviceman with a gun) and the entitled (My warantee is a year expired, but I want free service!) or those who think that everything's our fault (Wait, you mean if its a user error, the warantee's not going to cover it and I'll have to paaaaaaaaay? Thats horrible!).
Face it, People suck. Tech support has to deal with these people, and it only gets worse as the gadgets get more complicated and hard to use. The only people who have it worse than Tech support is billing, because frankly you've not heard the meaning of pissed till someone has problems dealing with money.
That being said, we do our job. Our job is to be nice, helpful, understanding. How long do you think anyone would last if they showed their contempt to every customer who called up? I'd say a week, tops. People can tell, and people don't like it. They call your manager, and then you get written up.
I treated every one of my calls like it was my problem, and I probably had one of the worst track times in the whole building. There were still things I couldn't do for the customer, still problems that I had to say "sorry, we don't cover that", and you know, it sucks, but thats not our call.
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
All in all most of the tech support calls I take are short and productive, and quickly resolve the customer's questions. The part that takes the longest time is just figuring out exactly what new and creative thing the customer has found he can do with/to the computer. After long enough you can guess pretty quickly what the issue is. My favorite: "Every time I click my mouse a little window opens up". "Take the book off your keyboard". "What?" "Take the BOOK off your KEYBOARD." "The what?
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
Then again, there is a limit, and if you work for the right company, a properly defined one. Nevertheless, judging FTA, this guy makes the same classic mistake tons of helldesk employees do, which is to confuse the concept of "intelligence" with "knowledge about computers". It never ceases to amaze me how underpaid geeks somehow can't get it into their skulls that the guy is not stupid, he's a bloody doctor/lawyer/diplomat/you name it, for crying out loud. Perhaps someday they'll turn the tables and when a guy like this walks into a doctor's office the good ol' doc will expect him to know whether he's running a beta version of his appendix.
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:3)
First, we calm the person - only then can we attempt to solve the problem.
A simple backup solution (Score:3, Informative)
Practical Backup Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Last month my laptop was stolen, and though I was pretty upset, a
Re:Minor rant (Score:3, Informative)
Re:little Apple (Score:5, Insightful)
As a programmer, I think that *all* programmers have to spend some time supporting customers on some stuff. Or at least read articles like this or talk to tech support from time to time. Not for the amusement ("hey, they are stupid") part, but in order to better understand how usual people see computers, in order to be able to adopt software to their views/habits.
This mostly applies to UI designers/developoers, but every software component has its human users, and knowing these users is a key point in creating a successful application.
Parent
Re:little Apple (Score:3, Funny)
Tell them to use a NTP-Server. Then wait untill they ask you how to do it on their Windows box.
Re:little Apple (Score:2)
Yes, I found that the summary and TFA have little to nothing in common as well...
Re:little Apple (Score:3, Informative)
Excellent quote (Score:3, Insightful)
Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
*embarrassed silence*
Re:Obligatory (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Obligatory (Score:3, Funny)
I rock, all else sucks. (Score:5, Funny)
Not only am I great at everything, I am such a cold chap that I make everybody else cry due to my brilliance. I would laugh at their weakness but hey...I am just too cool.
Urgh.
What is the difference between this guy and waiters who snigger at customers who choose bad wine? The former has a blog, that's what.
I am now going to go click on his Google ads a couple of hundred thousand times and have his account suspended for click fraud. He made me waste four and a half years reading his Maddox-style crap.
Re:I rock, all else sucks. (Score:4, Insightful)
"I worked in Austin's AppleCare center for four and a half years as a desperation move"
Uh, four and a half months is a desperation move. Anything over a year, and you've given up. And as someone who has a bit of call center experience (I gave up for a while too), I've seen my share of these guys. The ones who will use every possible acronym and technical name for stuff as possible (and usually get it completely wrong) when dealing with the customer. And if you're one of those people, and can't understand why the customers never seem to rate their call with you "Very Satisfied", imagine this:
You take your car into the mechanic. Now what is the first thing that comes into your head when he starts talking about this joint, that gasket, and wing nuts and what not. You may happen to know exactly what he's talking about, but most of us don't, and our first thought it, "This guy's trying to screw me".
Now imagine a guy trying to explain the windows NT TCP/IP stack to grandma... Wonder what she'll rate him when the survey monkey comes a calling...
Parent
Re:I rock, all else sucks. (Score:5, Insightful)
You've convinced me not to bother with this story when becomes deslashdotted. But jeez, what do you expect? Blogs are all about vanity. And yet people love this shit. That is what bothers me.
Parent
Shame the same can't be said for apple re-sellers (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm just about to start legal procedings against my former manager!
All of the Apple representatives that came to check up on 'us' as well didn't seem to have inherited the casual lifestyle either
Re:Shame the same can't be said for apple re-selle (Score:3, Funny)
Article text (server slow) (Score:3, Informative)
You can only work in a technical service position for a limited amount of time before it loses its luster and shine, and you start to follow. Once you've performed a job for several years, you get into the groove and know how it's done. The knowledge is all there, somewhere, and it becomes routine to just look it up and spit it out on demand. You keep doing this, time and again, and eventually become a fixture: unchanging, unmoving, static.
The problems compound when this job involves the general public. Any technical job that involves helping masses of uncensored human beings understand technology will eventually wear the average man down, causing him to go bat-shit crazy and scream at the top of his lungs while trying to take out a swath of them with a surprise barrage of old SCSI cards. The largest catalyst for such violent behavior and general mental breakdown is best described by stating, simply, that most people exist at a significant intellectual delta from that burnt-out husk of a technology worker.
This doesn't have to pose a problem in an ideal world. In an ideal world, common people would be willing to accept advice from anyone capable of delivering it. In this real world, however, half of those that acknowledge that they need such assistance will turn violently against anyone they seek help from with such winning phrases as: "What do you think I am, stupid?" In most of the remaining cases, the user is a support vampire [slash7.com] and that simply ruins those willing to try and help as badly as being berated for offering the answer. This behavior is evident in forums, mailing lists, in person, and most especially on the phone with technical support.
As a technical support agent, you develop mental calluses that help you move on and through the chaff and treasure the customers that are amiable, acknowledge that they need help, and are happy with the answer they're given. Genuinely happy. A good number of calls are actually like that and make the job bearable. A similar number are very, very far from it.
However, the core reason of why I recently quit my job in AppleCare is that in commodity technical jobs there's only so far you can go before you arrive at the end of the career path for the masses of technical agents and hit the lid where only five or ten pass upwards. Ever. When you get there, you have two choices for moving ahead: wait for the person in the cushy job you want to leave or die to make room and pray that it's you among the masses that applied that gets it, or move ahead elsewhere. After waiting for someone to bite it in a freak keyboarding accident for four years, it was time to go with Plan B.
So one day, when I had a life outside of the company set up and ready, I walked up to my manager and said: iQuit.
Bitchman Begins
I worked in Austin's AppleCare center for four and a half years as a desperation move after a programming gig decided they'd rather give it a go without me several months earlier and my severance and unemployment checks stopped paying the bills. I've used a Mac since I had control over my mousing finger, so performing remedial technical support for Macs was an obvious choice for some quick money. Mac OS X 10.1 had just come out a few months previous, which was the only free upgrade Apple has ever released for Mac OS X as it was mostly an apology to those that bought Mac OS X 10.0. The PowerBook Titanium was the king of the road, until you opened it the 333rd time and the hinge decided it was time to move on in life. There were other Apple products, but I didn't care because those were the two I was told I supported at the time.
The job was remarkably easy, but it had been a long time since I'd done phone support, so I had a lot to learn on the procedural side. They have a shortish training course that they put all new-hires through that taught them how to use iMovie, what an iPod was (the 5GB bricks, at the time), and how to troubleshoot Mac OS 9 (no one was
Oh it's "this guy" (Score:5, Insightful)
How many of us here have done tech support as a full time gig? I bet the show of hands is impressive. How many realized it was time to move on, not just from the job, but from the "customerz R teh st00pitz" attitude as well?
No? Haven't figured that out yet? Enjoy your time in the middle.
There's always one, or more, of those guys who feel that they have been given the shaft. They're just so good technically but they can't seem to put a career together. Why? It' must be dumb luck and conspiracy. "I don't get promoted because [manager|company|god] is threatened by my skill, or because they are short sighted, or because maybe I didn't take a shower this month".
Those of you who have your eyes upwards, or elsewhere know who I'm talking about. Those who are this guy will not realize it.
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not that people are stupid. It's that they don't completely understand the technology they're trying to use. But they shouldn't need to. Technology is a tool, and they simply want it to work. Much like their car - they don't need to understand the inner workings of their car in order to drive it. And it's frustrating when it doesn't.
That said, a
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:5, Interesting)
Tell me about it. My dad worked most of his life in process control. Building networks in mines and factories. I am sure he had a lot of fun cruising the world with a toolbox and an ethernet analyser and being shot at in PNG.
Now the local branch of his company has turned into a phone support operation and it is totally the wrong type of work for him. He knows his stuff technically but the job is too structured for him. A 63 year old tech shouldn't have to take X number of calls per hour or get carpeted by management.
So he is retiring soon and I am trying to set him up with a business fixing valve amplifiers. He is old enough to have started out on valves and they have come back into fashion. If I had known he was being made to do this kind of work I would have been pursuading him to get out before his heart attack, not after.
Parent
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh it's "this guy" (Score:5, Interesting)
Despite being more knowledgeable and more helpful to customers, I was passed by for 'promotion' (if you call it that... the place sucked) several times. Poeple that knew a LOT less and usually just messed up my customer if I had to get a second opinion on something.
Until 1 day, the seating arrangement changed. I ended up sitting right next to the head of our area. I said good morning every morning and suddenly I was 'backup team lead' about a month later. Another month later, another seating rearrangement, and for the next 2-3 months, I remained 'backup' and people who had never even been backup were promoted to full team lead.
At the time, it stuck in my craw that I had to 'suck up' (even tho I was just being my normal self at the time I was promoted, I'd have had to go out of my way to be nice under the new seating) to the boss (female, if that matters) to get anywhere.
I was only there 6 months, but I learned a LOT about politics in the workplace. Geeks tend not to do well with it, but it's worth the time to look into so you at least know why thse things are happening to you.
Parent
Wait... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not like anybody twisted this gomer's arm to become an Apple employee, nor continue the pain of cashing those regular checks for 4 years...
The telling point is that, even after all of his tale of woe, he's still an elitist snob going to work in an Apple-only software shop. Here's hoping when his gear breaks, he gets supp
Seemed Like He Was Spot on To Me (Score:5, Insightful)
I particularly liked the part where the bozo with the "mission critical" computer didn't back it up. If it's mission critical, you have redundancy. If you don't have redundancy, it's not mission critical - you've already decided you can survive without it.
I call BS on this (Score:5, Funny)
Since when does whiny former help-desk employee... (Score:4, Informative)
Just wondering.
Yes (Score:5, Funny)
You are free to sweat in your Business Bhurka and eventually choke on your tie when it gets stuck in your Dell lapstop, but remember you had a choice.
Would you like fries with that? (Score:5, Insightful)
The pay, conditions, level of respect you receive, and especially the customers, all comparable. Flipping burgers and switching backup tapes don't feel all that different, they're both soul destroying once you get past any initial novelty.
So it's hardly surprising that many leave the job in a pretty bitter state. What is surprising is how many of them think their situation is novel, and that it's worthy of sharing with the world.
Oh noes! (Score:4, Insightful)
Give me a break. For those of us in IT, there are lots of jobs and lots of career paths -- but if you really want a new job, you have to motivate yourself, learn on your own, and (often times) leave the company to get a better job. If you're intelligent (as another user pointed out, just because you have a knack for computers doesn't make you smart) and are good with customers and juniors, you'll go far.
The key thing support guys (and I fall into this category) usually fail to realize is that they are not the cock-n-balls. They are the jock strap. It is their position to support the important parts of the business. Like the dispair.com poster says, just because you're essential, it doesn't mean you're important.
Me? I've got 8 1/2 years of IT experience. I went from being a lowly support guy (about as low as you can get...a data tech in the Marine Corps), today I'm a router guy who does senior-level enterprise network support for almost a half-million end users in our organization. Daily.
If you want it bad enough, you can get it. Just get rid of the "heh heh stoopid lusers" attitude and get with the program. IT support is little different than A/C repair, vehicle repair, medicine, or a myraid of other support/repair professions. Get the customer to trust you, don't make them feel stupid for not being able to do it themselves, and in the end, get them up and running, and happy that you're there for them, and will be next time.
You never hear EMTs giggling after work about stupid guys not being able to recognize heart attack symptoms. They get on the scene, and help the patient. Help the customer. Support them. That's what "IT support" is all about.
Re:Oh noes! (Score:3, Insightful)
Bad analogy. Now if the heart-attack victim shot up off the ground and strangled the EMT and started blaming his for his high cholesterol, well that'd be about right.
as another applecare rep..... (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're an asshat, you'll get a lot more asshats because you CAUSED IT!
I personally PREFER people with zero knowledge of computers. they do exactly what I ask them to quickly and efficiently.
It's the people that think they know everything and argue that they know more than you that make life hard.
When someone is obviously low in computer proficiency I tell them "It's really OK. I'm sure there's something you do much better than me, some day I may need YOUR help."
The moment I say that the call goes very smoothly, as they know I'm not going to judge them, I'm just there to help.
Booo hoo - too good for customer service job (Score:3, Insightful)
I have worked a ton of these jobs and a lot of things people have said so far I totally and completely agree with:
1. Just because someone does not understand computers does not make them an idiot. I did tech support for lawyers at one point and you cannot tell me that the Harvard grad senior partner was an idiot just because he knew less about computers than Bob the first year help desk guy. Yet, Bob got his silly butt fired for treating the senior partner like a moron and insulting his computing skills.
2. Its customer service. Yeah you might be able to answer half the questions before the customer figures out what to tell you about their problem but come on.
3. Sure, a customer should be prepared with basic info going into a help desk call just like you should have all your insurance info right there when you call the company on a claim and all that. But this is not the way to look at it. When someone takes their car in especially nowadays they do not know cars and can barely in grunts noises and gestures describe their issue. That is the way it is. Its the job. Get over it.
4. You think customer service sucks? Man, you ain't seen shitty jobs till you flipped burgers or done landscaping in the hot summer or worked a conveince store so until you have scrubbed puke out of a toilet at 3am after the drunks drop come in with the munchies acting rowdy then shut the hell up. Boo-frickin-hoo You are above it? Then quit, get a better job and get over it.
5. I agree with the poster who talked about the good service from Apple. I have heard some motherboard freaking out mac in the shop for weeks horror stories. But it has never been my experience. I went in a month after I got my shuffle and the usb went dead and my computer would not recognize the thing at all. Unlike one poster that wrote the Genius Bar guys off as arrogant the guy checked out what I said I told him what I had tried and he plugged the thing into a Mac right there and - nothing- they replaced it right then and there. Quick, easy polite and all.
Everyone's a "user" some time... (Score:3, Insightful)
Nod.
I'm sure my mechanic thinks I'm a pain in the neck, 'cos I don't find cars the coolest things ever and keep coming back with stuff I could have avoided if I obsessed over my car the way I do over my computer.
Teamwork and Infrastructure Matter (Score:5, Insightful)
I worked in Applecare for 9 years and saw a lot of this attitude. Tech support specialist feel more knowledgeable than we actually are because we forget the enormous support given to us by our teammates and the support infrastructure of the company. It might be true that any particular high level support tech could leave the company and get highly paid for the knowledge they possess but that superior knowledge would grow stale in hurry. They would have an edge for 3-6 months but after that slip down the knowledge slope and end up just like everyone else.
Applecare techs can quickly solve problem that would take expensive consultants because they have an instant reservoir of high quality information at their fingertips. First, they have their teammates who are also specialist in area who can be tapped just by poking one's head over a cube wall. Second, they have the databases, training and testing labs provided by the company that lets them find answers quickly. Thirdly, they can escalate problems up the technical food chain until it hits the people who actually created the product in the first place.
All this support makes the individual feel super-knowledgeable but I saw a lot of people leave for consulting gigs who didn't make it for long because they under-estimated how important their support was.
Tech support isn't for everyone. Its not a high status job by any means no matter how well compensated. However, if you like rapid problem solving, have basic personal skills and can just remember that if everyone knew what you knew you wouldn't have job in the first place, it can be a good career.
Re:Slashdot == Apple-channel? (Score:4, Interesting)
Thing is, Apple is one of the more interesting companies out there, so there is naturally going to be a lot of interest, negative and positive. I'm sure that if Apple stories weren't generating a lot of page hits, there wouldn't be as many of them on slashdot.
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