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Boot Camp Flaw Leaves Some Users Fuming

Posted by Zonk on Thu Apr 13, 2006 02:11 PM
from the oh-teh-irony dept.
OS X Operating Systems Software Windows
Karl Cocknozzle writes "Some users who chose to install Apple's recent beta-offering of Boot Camp without basic precautions (like a full backup) have found themselves unable to boot their Macs to OS X. In a discussion thread on Apple's technical support Web site, more than a dozen users reported that Boot Camp successfully partitioned their hard drive and allowed them to install a working version of Windows, but then would no longer allow them to switch back. The download-agreement page for Boot Camp contains the explicit warning that Boot Camp is still 'Beta' software, and would not be supported if problems arose. On the whole, it sounds like the number of affected users is quite small, but may reflect a common lack of knowledge of what a 'beta' release really is: Not ready for prime-time."
+ -
story

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  • And this make the news? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by WebHostingGuy (825421) * on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:13PM (#15123535) Homepage Journal
    While it is interesting . . . but if you have ever tried dual booting with Windows the first couple of times you always find out that Windows will boot and the other operating system is screwed up. I mean seriously - when has dual booting with Windows "ever" worked out of the box? It seeks always to dominate and does not ever like to share.

    And people, people, please figure out what a beta is... sheesh.
    • And people, people, please figure out what a beta is... sheesh.

      You mean this isn't like Google beta?

    • Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Cthefuture (665326) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:27PM (#15123726)
      I find that generally if you install Windows first, then it works out of the box. It's Windows that is the unfriendly one about overwriting boot sectors changing partitions and screwing around with things it shouldn't (although this probably makes it easier if all you want to run is Windows).

      I also never put my (multi)bootloader on the master boot record because Windows kills that any time you do an install. It's better to put it on another partition and then set that partition to be bootable.

      KNOPPIX CD's and similar are a great help for fixing a dorked up install.

    • Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mikeal (968191) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:30PM (#15123765)
      There is a big difference though. The issue with dual booting is usually either:

      a)Windows overwrote the MBR and doesn't know how to boot any other OS
      b)Linux or other bootmanager overwrote MBR and doesn't know how to boot windows (this is far less common nowadays but we all remember when it was huge problem)
      or
      c)You chose to install the linux boot manager NOT in the MBR, and the windows boot manager in the MBR takes precedent, so you reboot and go right in to windows.

      With Boot Camp this is different, apple is emulating BIOS inside their own EFI boot manager, so the windows bootloader has no chance of ever affecting the OS X install. This is a bug in apples boot software that is affecting apples OS, not some other OS's software affecting another OS.
    • Where's the dude who always bitches that Ubuntu is a horrible, horrible distro because it "made his machine inaccessable"--that is, he was a dumbass and didn't backup, plus he was beligerant toward those in the community who tried to help, plus he lacks the basic knowledge to install ANY OS, let alone try a dual-boot Linux/Windows installation.

      Maybe if he reads this, he'll realize that things can ALWAYS go wrong when installing a second OS, even on the reputedly uber-stable and very homogenous Mac platform.
      • AFAIK, no user data was lost. Boot from CD/DVD or in target disk mode and procede.

      • New Ellen Fleiss Ad (Score:5, Funny)

        by Greedo (304385) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:17PM (#15124329) Homepage Journal
        I was installing Boot Camp on my MacBook. And it was, like, "beep beep beep beep beep".

        And then, like, half my operating systems were gone. And I was, like, ....

        It was a really good operating system, you know?

        So I had to install OS X all over again.

        It was, kinda ... a bummer.

        I'm Ellen Fleiss, and I'm an early adopter.

      • Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by slamb (119285) * on Thursday April 13 2006, @04:19PM (#15124982) Homepage
        back when I took software engineering the definition I was given for beta was: has major bugs but will not lose user data.

        It sounds from the article like it doesn't lose data. The complaining users are saying things like this:

        "This isn't a minor glitch, but a major problem. Barring erasing my drive and reinstalling OS X, I am stuck with an Apple laptop that only runs Windows," wrote a user. "I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognize the problem and are working on it."

        There's no data loss here. He can restore the system using the commandline but won't because he refuses to learn. He shouldn't be using beta software.

        Your college definition of beta is oversimplified, anyway:

        • Betas are released to a wider audience than alphas. The purpose is to find problems. If no one released a beta until they were absolutely confident there's no data loss, then no one would ever release a beta.
        • Sadly, some vendors [microsoft.com] release production versions of software which does destroy entire partitions. I'm still mad about Windows destroying my Linux partition [advogato.org]. There's a known bug here [microsoft.com]. In fact, my situation was different than described, and Windows still destroyed my Linux partition!
        • You don't think it would have anything to do with Boot Camp's partitioning function? The Windows installer isn't beta, but the boot camp and the partitioning function certainly are.

          I enjoy slamming on MS as much as the next guy, but lets at least be realistic about where the problem most likely lies.

      • Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by deadlinegrunt (520160) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:32PM (#15124515) Homepage Journal
        Really? As opposed to any other *nix distros that uses lilo or grub? Or do you mean that you DO NOT have to install Windows first THEN your other non-windows operating systems? Curious what makes SuSE stand out in this instance. Windows has always been a pain in regard to playing nice with anything non-windows it touches - and this isn't a group think /. moronic troll, just the simple truth...Like installing Windows AFTER you have some other OS installed.
  • What a way to welcome users to Windows, with an introduction to our friend, Fdisk, as in now your disk is 'f'ed!

    Anyhow, it is unfortunate, and hopefully it will be fixed shortly.

  • I wonder... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dev_sda (533180) <nathan@@@unit03...net> on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:14PM (#15123550) Homepage Journal
    I wonder how many of them simply didn't read the instructions that say "Hold Option/Alt down during boot up to switch". I know my boot camp defaults to windows. Minor problem easily overcome.

    • Not that simple (Score:5, Informative)

      by Ohreally_factor (593551) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:32PM (#15123791) Journal
      I wonder how many of them simply didn't read the instructions that say "Hold Option/Alt down during boot up to switch". I know my boot camp defaults to windows. Minor problem easily overcome.

      From reading the posts at the Apple discussion forums [apple.com], it looks like the problem has something to do with the partitioning and/or a corrupted swapfile.

      OK, I'll grant that some mac users are as dumb as you are implying, but if you read the thread I posted above, you'll see that not all of the people with this problem are complete idiots.

    • Re:I wonder... (Score:4, Informative)

      by voisine (153062) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:35PM (#15124538)
      I started the apple discussion thread that article links to. The problem is not with the boot loader, it's repartition-your-drive-on-the-fly tool that's causing the problem. It seems to introduce random errors into the filesystem to the point that fsck doesn't even work in most cases. It causes a kernel panic on boot up. It's pretty henious. The only solution is a reformat and reinstall of the os x partition.

  • being only able to boot into windows (Score:5, Funny)

    by moosesocks (264553) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:15PM (#15123564) Homepage
    This is easily every mac user's worst nightmare.

    Turning on your shiny new iMac to see it boot into windows no matter what you do.... the horror!

  • Fuming? (Score:4, Funny)

    by jdwest (760759) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:15PM (#15123565)
    Caveat freakin' emptor.

  • Boot Camp vs. XOM (Score:3, Informative)

    by mrchaotica (681592) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:15PM (#15123567)
    I've got an Intel Mac, and I've been trying to decide between using Boot Camp or XOM. I'd prefer XOM just because it's Free Software, but it seems like Boot Camp has more momentum among users. Does anyone know what the particular differences between the two are, and which one is better? In particular (to stay on-topic), is XOM likely to cause the same problem mentioned in the article?

  • It Just Works (Score:3, Funny)

    by Scoria (264473) <slashmail@initializ e d . org> on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:16PM (#15123572) Homepage
    Boot Camp is a highly educational product from the sadistic^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H mind of Steve Jobs. Those users came looking for an authentic Windows experience, and Apple delivered!
  • Wow! I am like TOTALLY SHOCKED that something that Apple says is *beta* and that they refuse to, at this time, provide technical support for, is buggy!

    After reading this thread, I was totally amazed at how many of the people didn't bother to back up their disk before installing something that alters your system's hard disk partitions. Duh. What do you expect?
      • What exactly do you think beta means, anyway?

        "I don't think that word means what he thinks it means!"

      • Re:Beta software is buggy? (Score:5, Informative)

        by k12linux (627320) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:46PM (#15124641)
        Um, that IS the whole point of "beta" software you realize, right?

        Don't forget that if you bother to read the install guide (or at least the first paragraph that is highlighted with and labeled "Warning:") Apple tells you to not only back up before trying Boot Camp but also to back up often WHILE USING it.

  • Please read before you install.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kupekhaize (220804) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:17PM (#15123589) Homepage
    For the rest of the people that did not bother reading the fine print, it is also recommended that you make a firmware restoration cd [apple.com] before you install the firmware update that makes boot camp work. Otherwise, you could leave your computer in an unbootable state.

    At least with these guys they have the option of doing an erase and install to restore their software to the way it was before. Some people are not able to boot their computers any more without using the firmware restore CD.

    Please, please, please, before trying this type of stuff, RTFM...

  • Google's Fault (Score:4, Insightful)

    by chunews (924590) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:17PM (#15123598)
    Really, this is Google's fault for releasing a series of very well understood, usable, secure, nearly flawless applications all under the "Beta" name!

  • Google Beta? (Score:5, Funny)

    by MasterC (70492) <cmlburnett@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:19PM (#15123633) Homepage
    Karl Cocknozzle writes: ...common lack of knowledge of what a 'beta' release really is: Not ready for prime-time.

    I take it Karl doesn't [gmail.com] work [froogle.com] for [google.com] google [google.com]?

  • Partitioning (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Universal Indicator (626874) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:21PM (#15123660)
    I just got my Intel iMac yesterday, and I installed Boot Camp and Windows on it. I am willing to be that what happened was these users didn't know what they were doing. When you use Boot Camp to install XP, Windows exposes the entire partition table when you are installing, which includes a couple of small system partitions. Chances are these users didn't understand that those partitions were necessary and they deleted them while they were installing Windows. It's not Windows' fault, it's ID10T error.

  • Heh... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rAiNsT0rm (877553) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:22PM (#15123671) Homepage
    It is funny on a couple levels, but in reality it is BETA software and has never been made out to be any different. News outlets and the media in many places did make it out to be a final product and I can see where a lot of people could have been led to believe so... but in the end it is what it is.

    I just like the fact that it gets stuck in Windows... I mean if you're going to have a bug at least make sure your users aren't stuck in the competitions OS!

  • Ok... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thefirelane (586885) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:23PM (#15123687)
    Ok, So obviously, if you install beta software which repartitions your drive, without backing up... your fault.

    We're obviously going to hear a lot of that

    A more interesting question: Is Google to blame?

    Before everyone jumps on me, I mean this: Most people don't know the history of the term 'beta'... so their first exposure to it is through Google (where it is primarily used as a marketing term). To most people, in its context, it is just interpreted as 'new'.

    To most people, does beta now just mean 'new'?

    • Apple's slick boot camp website [apple.com]

      This is not the layout or speak of a piece of beta software. It is a marketting page.

      The top titles are:

      "Macs do Windows, too"
      "As elegant as it gets"
      "Included Amenities"

      • Re:I actually blame... (Score:5, Informative)

        by k12linux (627320) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:32PM (#15124508)
        This is not the layout or speak of a piece of beta software.

        You mean like the big heading "Boot Camp Public Beta" at the top of the page?

        Or are you talking about the first paragraph in the install guide which is highlighted and says:
        Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software.

        Bold mine except the word "Warning" which was both bold, a different color and italicized.

  • priceless quotes (Score:5, Funny)

    by Ohreally_factor (593551) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:23PM (#15123692) Journal
    Some of the posts on the relevant thread [apple.com] at the Apple site contain some priceless quotes from various disgruntled beta testers:

    Apple should consider taking Boot Cramp off distribution immediately ! I am going to keep putting posts in here just to keep this one at the top of the list.... someone from Apple NEEDS to see it and NEEDS to respond.

    Add my name to the growing list. Same problem as reported here by others. Would like to see a response from Apple.

    Apple? This isn't a minor glitch, but a major problem. Barring erasing my drive and reinstalling OS X, I am stuck with an Apple laptop that only runs Windows. Any feedback? I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognise the problem and are working on it.

    I am speaking as a career software developer and lifelong Apple devotee. But i'm not touching boot camp again while in Beta and will still be wary beyond that. Apple should have held onto their cards a little longer.

    • Re:priceless quotes (Score:5, Funny)

      by tktk (540564) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:35PM (#15123837)
      I am speaking as a career software developer...

      Anyone know the company he works for? I'd like to know what company to avoid.

    • Re:priceless quotes (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Babbster (107076) <aaronbabb&gmail,com> on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:44PM (#15123937) Homepage
      My favorite part: "I am speaking as a career software developer and lifelong Apple devotee. But i'm not touching boot camp again while in Beta and will still be wary beyond that."

      Hi, career software developer! Nice job screwing up something that most non-software developers seem to have had no trouble with! And the fact that you knew it was in beta and are still whining like a little bitch? Priceless!

      Seriously, though, I have to say that I think Apple did exactly the right thing in releasing this software, even if it is imperfect. There were too many people determined to dual-boot Windows, and who were willing to do so in "hack" fashion, for Apple to ignore and leave out in the cold. While I'm sure they're still having to deal with support calls on this, I think it would have been much worse had they waited six months while user after user used completely unsupported third-party solutions to get the job done. And, if folks are wary of Boot Camp still being beta, they benefit from the early release as well, in the sense that they now know that Apple is working on a solution that will be available in the next big OSX release. Considering Apple usually keeps their info top secret until actual release, that seems uncharacteristically open of them.
    • I am speaking as a career software developer and lifelong Apple devotee. But i'm not touching boot camp again while in Beta and will still be wary beyond that. Apple should have held onto their cards a little longer.

      Hell's weather man:
      Yes, ladies and gentlemen, just like in The Day After Tomorrow [wikipedia.org] , this storm just snuck up on us and we totally did not see it coming. This major bigger-than-hurricane-sized storm has literally frozen Hell...

      This just in: yes...yes, I see, yes...it has been confirmed that a Mac fanboy is...stuck in Windows world on his Apple laptop. We advise everyone to seek shelter immediately as we predict a rapid population influx from these disgruntled Mac fanboys.

    • Re:priceless quotes (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Paul Rose (771894) on Thursday April 13 2006, @04:33PM (#15125107)
      It's like Apple produces a talking dog and this guy complains about its grammar.

      Firmware Update, check

      Dynamic Repartitioning, check

      Dual Boot Windows, check

        BETA, check

      and he expects it to be impossible to shoot himself in the foot somewhere along the way. Good grief.

      Probably selected wong partition in the Windows (ignoring the "big bold print" in the Apple doc), which Apple simply can't prevent without modifying the Windows installer.

  • Didn't Follow Directions ... ? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MidKnight (19766) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:24PM (#15123700)
    I heard that many of the "fuming" early adopters (which in itself is pretty silly) simply didn't follow the instructions closely enough, and ended up repartitioning their entire drive... including the existing partition that had OS X installed on it.

    Apparently the world-will-make-a-better-idiot maxim has been proven right yet again. This sort of a mistake typically isn't even possible on non-beta Apple-provided software; I bet that idiot-proofing is somewhere on the post-beta software development schedule

    I wonder if anyone who actually followed the directions closely have this problem.

  • Beta with no backups? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by grasshoppa (657393) <skennedy AT tpno-co DOT org> on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:27PM (#15123731) Homepage
    Someone should go to their door and kick them squarely in the nuts for being idiots.

    It's BETA folks, means it might break things. Back up your data if you absolutely must play with it.

    Hell, back up your data anyway.

  • Remedy-HFS+ driver for Windows (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:31PM (#15123790)
    It happened to a friend of mine. He purchased a HFS+ driver for Windows (Mac Drive). Upon installing the driver, he managed to mount the Mac partition under Windows and recover his personal files.

  • They're idiots... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tktk (540564) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:32PM (#15123801)
    First, Boot Camp is beta software. Second, non-destructive partitioning seems to work only if you're lucky. Making a backup is a basic precaution and it's your own fault if ignore it.

    I installed BootCamp on my MBP with lots of free space on the HD. It killed my OS X partition. But I didn't lose anything since I had made a backup. I lost an hour of time but that was it.

    Course, now that most things are released as beta software, we should probably think of a new term to really mean beta. People seem to treat beta as 1.0 releases and get mad when things go wrong.

  • Beta is not always a clear term... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MadAnalyst (959778) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:32PM (#15123803)
    It's no wonder people are confused. Beta doesn't seem to mean "testing" any longer, it just means great product with a greek letter attached. Or at least that is what I have learned by surfing around at Google.

  • Thought it happened to me. (Score:3, Informative)

    by WatertonMan (550706) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:33PM (#15123817)
    I thought this happened to me. But it turned out that the Startup Disk control panel in Windows only worked once I booted at least once into OSX via the option key. I wonder if others had that happened. I was pretty scared because I, like an idiot, didn't back everything up. But now I have Age of Empires III goodness going when I get bored.

  • They propbably nuke the Mac OS X partition (Score:5, Informative)

    by Enrique1218 (603187) on Thursday April 13 2006, @02:44PM (#15123941) Journal
    I just installed the Boot camp yesterday and have Windows on a Mac Mini. Part of that process required me to resize Mac OSX partition to make room for the Windows partition. Then it takes me to the Windows installer which has to format the new partition (Boot Camp doesn't do it) to Fat32 or NTFS before installtion can begin. The windows installer displays the partitions on the disc but it can differentiate the Mac OSX partion from the one for Windows. So, if someone split the drive down the middle during Boot Camp, he/she won't be able to recognized the right partition and they can easily reformat the one with Mac OSX. My suggestion is to partition the drive with two that are of unequal size. Use that to identify the drive during installation.

  • I almost deleted my Mac partition. (Score:5, Informative)

    by all_wet (780697) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:04PM (#15124197)
    I have no experience beyond my own installation, but the steps were to update the firmware, partition, then install. Each step is possibly disasterous, but the install was what almost got me. Good thing I've done more than one XP installation in the past. You know how the XP installation goes, if there's no XP/NTFS-ish partition, the XP installer asks which partition you want to reformat. My Mac Partition showed up highlighted, and not the new XP partition. The new XP partition was all the way at the bottom of the list of partitions. I ALMOST hit return and almost destroyed my MacOS X installation! I can see how a lot of people would make that same mistake. My problem, therefore, was really with the Windows installer, and my own lack of careful reading.

  • So its true? (Score:5, Funny)

    by delahappy (920330) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:39PM (#15124575)
    Once you go windows you never go back.

  • Windows = Beta Software (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Prototerm (762512) on Thursday April 13 2006, @03:54PM (#15124733)
    Come on, people, get with the program. Anyone who uses Windows knows that *all* versions are initially released as a public Beta. It took XP until Service Pack 2 to finally come out of Beta.

    So, it's perfectly understandable that someone trying to put Windows on a Mac would think Apple means the same thing as Microsoft when it says something is a "beta".

    Sheesh!
    • I attribute this largely to the dilution of the term itself, personally. The introduction of Web 2.0 seems to have convinced many users that "beta" now indicates that production quality software has arrived, but the developer would rather not be held liable for defects. It is quickly becoming shorthand for "use at your own risk."

      Maybe Apple should have referred to Boot Camp as alpha software.
        • Yup. Alpha is defined as software that is not yet feature complete (but may still be publicly rolled out). Beta means it is feature complete but may not be thoroughly debugged yet. Production is supposed to be thoroughly debugged.

          The real problem I've seen lately is companies taking glorified betas (with lots of serious bugs) and passing them off as finished products. Passing off nearly finished products as beta is just fine in my book, by comparison.

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